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thewickedchic

My Experimental Experience with Growing Citrus Indoors

Denise Becker
5 years ago

This year I tried something new with a few of my citrus trees. Instead of putting my lemons and variegated trees in my north facing sunroom, which temps average between 40-50's, I put them in south facing rooms which get bright light and warm temps In the afternoons. I try to get as much sunlight as possible to hit the leaves of my trees by opening up window blinds and the front door which has a glass storm door. They get about 4 hours of sunlight through mini blind covered windows. The humidity in the house shows 65.


This morning I was inspecting my sulking Record Buck Farms Eureka lemon and my entry level New Zealand Lemonade trees and found tiny blossoms forming on both. I let them dry out really well unintentionally to the point that the NZL dropped leaves along the bottom branches. I am so worried about root rot that I guess I let them dry out too much.


Anyway I am not sure if I should be happy or not that I am getting blossoms because I am concerned about stress blooming. I have not fertilized with Epsoma Citrus Food since September or October. The original plan was to bring all the trees into a dark and cool environment and let them go dormant, but didn't think all the trees would fit in the sun room so there are 6 trees facing south elsewhere and not getting 6-8 hours of actual sunlight. From what I have read, trees indoors should be under grow lights in order to flourish and I am not doing this but getting blossoms on 2 trees. I am cautiously watching the other 4 to see what happens.


I have 3 more months of my trees being indoors. My question is do I fertilize my trees to promote the new growth even if it's blossoms? My goal was just to have my trees survive inside, not to promote fruit production. I admit that I am excited to see something growing on my Eureka as it has done absolutely nothing for months, and, on my NZL to get additional flowers and potential fruitlets on my 1 y/o NZL is just totally unexpected.


I do have some Foliage Pro and know to use half strength during the winter so do I use it on all my south facing trees during the next watering? My potting mix contains peat so that is why I am so cautious.



Comments (72)

  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    I put my trees out this morning and found my Myer lemon and Washington navel orange setting blossoms. We are expecting rain and 70* temps tomorrow so out they went. Weird for January. lol. I also found two trees setting blossoms for the first time - Cara Cara and Smith Red. Again, I am stumped how these trees can be doing so well if they are not getting 8 hours of sunlight. According to all the information I have read for the past 5 years, this should not be happening because the trees are suppose to need heat and sunlight.


    If I had not said this before, I am doing this to show newbies that you don't need a special lighting set up for the winter. Maybe I should reiterate that I live in GA so that may make a difference.

  • bklyn citrus (zone 7B)
    5 years ago

    Georgia is pretty far south. I don't think a Maine window alone is going to cut it other than strict hibernation. Just guessing but it Could be your plants are already acclimated to Georgia and these temperatures are cold Springlike compared to outside in Georgia. In other words the trees internal clock senses Spring, a season that they begin to bloom in?

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  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Maine's mane advantage is the sunlight broadsides the tree where as in Georgia the sun is higher and hit the tree at an angle leaving more leaves in shade. Is there any such thing as winter sun in Maine or Georgia.

    No fertilizer since august and only one hour of light through a crinkle glass window.

    THE WINDOW.

    2nd new growth since thanksgiving on 2 sour oranges planted in hole-less glass flower vases.

    Some times I wander if it helps to break all the rules. The white tape on the tree to the right is covering a graft failure. Both these trees are due for a Valentine pomelo graft in a month or 2. I will be able to provide the need heat.

    Steve

  • myermike_1micha
    5 years ago

    Denise, how detailed and how thoughtful. Thank you for sharing this with us. Hoping all is well). By the way, we are going to the Superbowl..Ha


  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Bklyn, I am not sure what is triggering the blooming because I don't remember this happening last year. Now last year all my trees were potbound and I repotted in the spring. Last winter was either warmer or about the same as this one. From what I have seeing on the 2 FB citrus groups I am in, my trees are not the only ones blooming inside. It is possible though that with the previous month's warm temps in the sunroom and cool nights, spring temps have been duplicated. I don't know as I am no scientist. lol. I started a log on the temps in the sunroom yesterday so we will see. I am keeping track of the temps of the pots around 5 am with my husband's infared thermometer. A cool toy. The trees blooming in the sunroom I have had at least 2-3 years. The Smith Red is blooming for the first time and that was purchased in May 2017. The Cara Cara was purchased last year I think. I just started a log for the trees so I have something to refer back to in the future. My oldest Washington navel skipped a year of fruiting and I am wondering why. Maybe it's alternate bearing? A log will help in figuring all this out.


    Steve, I am starting to think all the rules we are told to follow are meant to be broken. lol. So many people say don't use Miracle Grow Potting Mix, it's bad for your trees. So far my trees are doing great with it and additional soil amendments. I am hoping in late March I don't have to eat my words. hahaha.


    I really like learning about new ideas on caring for citrus that are outside the box. They have to be cheap ones too. I really wish the person who was fertilizing with cooking oil would give us an update. That was really cool imo.


  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    meyermike, where are you staying while attending the Superbowl and how long will you be in Atlanta? Kelley is from the Atlanta area and I am 1.5 hours south of Atlanta. To be honest, I am not that big into watching the Superbowl for the game itself, but love critiquing the commercials and half time show. I hope you have a wonderful time here in GA.

  • Silica
    5 years ago

    Poncirusguy, about your sour orange photos shown above, notice how the tree on the right has much more growth,, and a more vibrant growth. This is due to the trunk of the right tree being straight. The tree on the left has two curves, with the bottom curve (called a "J" curve) being quite savvier. Commercial nurseries normally discard trees with such problems because of later growth problems.

  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Silica, is there no hope for a tree to eventually straighten out a crooked trunk. Won't it just get wider and fill in?

  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    5 years ago

    The trunk will straighten out over time. Whether it affects the growth I can't say. However a tree grafted on a straight trunk will fetch more money than one on a z trunk. It will also give more credit to the sellers reputation.

    Flying Dragon zig zags and grows much slower than PT. Perhaps it is this contorted pattern that make it a dwarf rootstock.

    Steve

  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago
  • Silica
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Poncirus, sorry, but the tree will NOT straighten out over time. The older and wider the trunk gets, the tighter the strangle becomes.

  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Silica You may be correc, but if i am wrong it will be a waisted graft. If I am right it will be a good graft. Why take a chance, unless you are a good graft and want to see for yourself. I will keep both those trees as is and see who is correct or shade of gray right/wrong.

    Steve

    fukushu kumquat 1 · More Info



    fukushu kumquat 1 · More Info



    fukushu kumquat 1 · More Info



    fukushu kumquat 1 · More Info


    Here we go loop-d-loop

    This tree is doing fantastic and has flowered profusely once in November. It could not hold onto is fruit though. Not enough light indoors. I do not have a current picture but it is about 4 times the volume of the first picture and the loop-d loop is now gone through trunk diameter.

    Steve

  • Silica
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I certainly do not believe that the tree in the above photo has straightened out its trunk, It just does not happen.. No J-curve as bad as the one in the above picture will ever be able to straighten out. Had that tree developed a firm straight trunk from the beginning the growth would have been much more successful then it is presently. That is why commercial nurseries toss those kind of trees away. Anyway, I made my point about the importance of the trunk. I don't want to beat a dead horse. Its your tree, and you can do with it as you wish.

  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    That loop is called apical hook and happens in all dicots to a lesser or greater degree. If you observe pea seedlings you will see it. It will never straighten out completely but as the plant grows it will fill it out and you will not know the difference after a few years.

    The hook allows the emerging seedling to successfully pop out of the seed towards light - like a spring action if you can imagine it. At the same time it protects the newly emerging 'leaves'. Imagine trying to push up through soil with two very vulnerable leaves pointing up pushing through the soil. The hook allows it keep the leaves pointing down as it pushes out of the soil thus protecting it till it can detect light so that it can straighten out. If the seed is planted too deep the hook apparently is more pronounced.

    Seeds are programmed to do that and so I do not see, or can find any articles, that it has any detrimental effect on the plant. I have grown many plants from seed (not just citrus) and my conclusion is that the hook practically disappears after 2-3 years of growth. As example, I have two citrus from seed - one grew straight and other with a hook in the beginning and two look identical after about 3yrs in a pot. I can still make out which one had the pronounced hook in the beginning - but you would know it unless you look very carefully.

    I know that it is not a proof, in my case, with two seedlings, and that it is a case against hooks but neither is Steve's examples. I would rather bet that nurseries will reject the bent ones for aesthetic reasons . Because the only citrus that nurseries will grow from seed are root stocks - and they grow them in 1000s. So it makes sense to eliminate the deformed/unattractive ones early on.

  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    5 years ago

    I do have its twin. It is in ground and 2X the volume.

    I dug the first one up and potted it because the earth opened up and swallowed that tree. I gave it to a friend.


    Fukushu kumquat#2 · More Info


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    Fukushu kumquat#2 · More Info



    Fukushu kumquat#2 · More Info


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    getting ready for 18/19 winter

  • Silica
    5 years ago

    Tropicofcancer, your above post could be considered partly correct when you write "nurseries will reject the bent ones for aesthetic reasons". They know the buyer would not want to purchase such seedling, but the actual reason they are rejected is because the trees health is jeopardized by the kinked roots. Here is a direct quote from the great book authored by Dr. Carl E. Whitcomb, Ph.D. . The book is titled "Plant Production in Containers-11" ......... A kinked taproot (also known as a "J" root) will always be in that position and the seedling is worthless. He goes on the write that its long term anchorage and health would be jeopardized by the kinked root. Personally, I would not want to put a long term investment of time and labor into such a seedling handicapped from it birth. However it up to each individual.

  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    I think may be we are talking about different things here. If you are talking about J-hooks and other such carzy curves in "roots" then yes (your quote above refers to taproot). Unnatural curves in roots is considered detrimental to the health of the plants. In bonsai, it is a common practices to regularly inspect the roots and eliminate such crazy curves in roots as possible - taproot or not.

    In shoots, I have not noticed, read or heard of this problem. Steve's picture of the hook is in shoot part of one of his plants. Shoots have the immense capability to fuse with their likeness. That is why even grafting is possible. In shoots, as far as I have understood and observed, the initial or even subsequent twists and turns in the shoot become indistinguishable after a few years of development.

  • Kulasa Kalabasa
    5 years ago

    I think that loop there is not the j hook. Doesnt the j hook become the tap root as it grows downward (therefore straightening). It comes out as a J hook for the purpose of hooking the seed down, like an anchor. What I understand from Poncirusguy's statement is that that loop kind of "straightened out" by secondary thickening.

  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    5 years ago

    Yes it has almost totally gone.

    Not my tree

  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Last Saturday, I put my trees from the sunroom outside and noticed that 80% of them were forming flower buds. I don't understand why they would as there is no grow light in there. Some heat, but the air and pot temps have been a consistent 50* for a while now. I have noticed that the morning light is little bit brighter. I gave the trees a thorough watering when taken outside because I knew it was going to be warm and didn't want a lot of damp pots in the sunroom as the air circulation is poor and the humidity from the pots would encourage mold to grow in the room.


    I brought the trees back inside on Thursday because we were to get a cold front in this weekend which brought the lows outside to 39*. While the trees were enjoying the 70* outside, the budding has tremendously increased.


    My question to you is "how does a citrus tree know when to start flower buds when it is not getting 8 hours of sunlight?" Even people who use grow lights and have consistent room temps have trees blooming. Is it possible that the trees have some sort of internal clock that measure days or nights and when they reach a certain point, they automatically start the spring growth?


    I am truly baffled with my experience compared to what is repeated over and over about how a citrus tree needs 8 hours of sunlight, humidity, and semi tropical temps. I am not giving any of my trees those so-called requirements.



  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    5 years ago

    Internal clock set for a subtropical existence. Burst out in February.

    Steve

  • Kulasa Kalabasa
    5 years ago
    Flowering is not induced by photoperiod. In subtropical regions, flowering is said or thought to be induced by cooler temps. In the tropics where it’s always hot and humid (which cause these trees to grow vegetative shoots continuously without distinct root growth spurts) it is the long drought and then rain that causes them to flower.
  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    Kulasa: You have an interesting point there. Subtropics get to around 45-65F during winter and by Feb the temp starts to move up. Just read an article discussing timing of flowering in citrus that corroborate your statements I wonder if people who bring in plants and keep it on the warm side say above 70F see less flowers.

  • Kulasa Kalabasa
    5 years ago
    Tropicofcancer I would assume so if the root temp is never below 70. If room temp is 70, root temp is always lower than that unless a heat mat is provided. When roots are warm, they are actively growing and secreting this hormones responsible for vegetative growth. They will still probably bloom but it wouldn’t be as much due to this hormones. When they go cold, the hormones are drastically reduced hence the tree grows reproductive shoots.
  • TheyCallMeDave
    5 years ago

    My Ponderosa flowers multiple times throughout the year. Regardless of inside or outside, or month. I believe it's a mix of the plants genetics and the type/amount of stress the plant is in. That's just an educated guess.

    Also, this year, I haven't used any lights for my Ponderosa. It's by a West Window and on Weekends if sunny I'll move it to a South Window in the Morning and back to the West for afternoon. Regardless, here in Canada, we can go weeks without seeing much, if any sun and my Ponderosa hasn't shed and leaves. I'll report back when it starts flowering... it last flowered in late November. I'm expecting another flush late Feb/Early March

  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Indoors, in containers, the soil temperatures follow air temperatures pretty darn closely. Indoors, the air temperatures do not fluctuate as wildly as outdoors. So everything settles into a small range of temperatures. You can ascertain that by putting a container of water, let it stabilize over a day or two and measure the temperature.

    The only way you can have any significant difference in temperatures in root zone, indoors, is if air temperatures are high (in the 90s) and the humidity is low and/or there is a high air flow rate. There is a slight delay in response of soil temp since it has water and it acts as a buffer. Indoor conditions are stable and temperatures do not fluctuate wildly. I just measured the soil temps for a bunch of containers. The air temp is 65F or so now. The soil is varying from 64-66F - basically non consequential. So if indoor temp is 70F I would expect the soil to be pretty close to it.

    In ground, it is a different scenario. The top few inches of soil track air temperatures pretty closely but below that it is pretty stable and changes very very slowly. So in summer, air temp may be high but soil below a few inches may remain around 80F or below. In winter, on the other hand, the air temp may dip to 50F now an then but the soil temp may never go below 65-70F, again below a few inches. In subtropics that is what happens in winter - soil below is warm but air is cooler. I measured this in my hometown in India during winter where coldest it ever gets is about 50F.

  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    I have to agree with tropicofcancer when it comes to air temps and soil temps being pretty darn close indoors. I watched my temps in the sunroom for 2 weeks and air and soil temps were very close. There was only maybe 1-2 degrees difference.

  • Kulasa Kalabasa
    5 years ago
    I thought India was a tropical country. During winter in a subtropical region the cold temp slows down root growth not because top growth gets cold but because the roots are cold. In a containerize setting, root zone is always colder because the container is elevated from the earth therefore losing the insulation the dirt provides. This is especially true in a nursery setting. If your container gets hit by light inside your home, be it the sun coming through the window or artificial light, this will warm the soil up. When it is sitting on the cold concrete floor or tile, then that would make the root zone even colder. To illustrate, a common issue in indoor growing is winter leaf drop. Winter leaf drop occurs when the light hits the foliage while the roots’ temp are below optimum level. This will cause the tree to drop foliage because the roots’ conductivity is greatly reduced. The roots have to catch up and provide water to the leaves that are actively working and responding to this intense light. With the roots being cold it will not be able to do its part. This will then trigger it to drop those leaves. It is not a matter of temperature fluctuation or instability, but there is a difference in root zone temp with the ambient air unless the grower is proactively doing ways to reduce this difference.
  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    India spans from 8N to 38N latitudes. So it spans both tropical and sub-tropical regions. Most of the citrus grown is from the subtropical regions. Limes/lemons growing region is much larger.

    Except the top few inches of soil, ground temperature does not change dramatically with air temperature changes. Similar to Fall conditions here in US which is supposed to be a good time to plant say maples since the ground is warm for roots to establish while the air is cool to reduce leaf stress. Winter in subtropics is just like Fall here. In India most of the subtropical region never see freezing temperatures except close to the Himalayas in the North.

    If a house is kept at say 70F then everything inside will reach that equilibrium temperature whether the floor is concrete, wood or tile. Except basement floors that can be a bit colder than the surroundings. Tile/concrete/metal feels colder to touch, as opposed to say wood, because it draws the heat from the fingers quickly giving you the sensation that it is cold. But it still will be at room temperature.

    Optimal temperature for roots lies somewhere between 70F and 80F. Some like it a little higher. Below these temperatures root function slows down first gradually and then rapidly. Above ideal temperatures roots are stressed rapidly. Optimal for shoots is about 10F higher than roots.

    WLD is said to occur when roots drop below 56F and it is Sunny. But then why does not it occur in Fall when my plants are still outside? I have let my container citrus/limes outside till it reaches 40F for extended periods. Not a single leaf drop. Others here do it too and no one complained of leaf drop in Fall.

    Whereas indoors with room temperatures well above 60F people still experience WLD. As I said soil temperatures cannot be more than a degree or two below room temperature so temperature alone cannot be the problem.

    I contend that the bigger culprit when indoors is humidity or lack of it. When it is Sunny the leaves need water for photosynthesis. But when the air is also dry the water loss from the hotter leaves (because of Sun striking) is huge putting a much larger demand on the roots. To compensate for that the plant drops its leaves. I have Nagami kumquat and a key lime which did just that. Dropped about 1/3rd of its leaves and stopped. Soil temperature through this period hovered around 63F but the humidity went down to 25%. The moment I raised the humidity it stopped under exactly the same condition otherwise.

  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    BTW Kulasa I am not trying to criticize you. I am stating my thoughts and observations. I am not a citrus expert but I do grow many tropical plants.

  • Silica
    5 years ago

    According to notes from M. Manners citrus root growth is limited below 64-F (18-C). Optimum root growth between 77 - 82-F. Temperatures above 96.8-F (36-C) restricts root growth. After pruning, shoot regrowth occurs at the expense of root growth. Shoots have priority over root growth.

  • Kulasa Kalabasa
    5 years ago
    Thank you for the lecture about the country, I appreciate it. I grew up in the Philippines where it’s always hot and humid. When you set your thermostat to 70f in the winter, it will not make every part of the room especially the floor 70f too. Warm air goes up, it does not stay down. Humidity is important, I agree with you. However, based on my personal experience with indoor growing, WLD was not prevented by raising humidity alone.
  • Kulasa Kalabasa
    5 years ago
    Silica, I learned the same thing from the book Biology of Citrus by Spiegel-Roy and E.E. Goldschmidt.
  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    After pruning, shoot regrowth occurs at the expense of root growth. Shoots have priority over root growth.

    Citrus like many other plants are apically dominant plants. The growing tips send down auxins that suppress lateral buds along the stem below the apex. The same auxin stimulates root growth. When an apically dominant plant is pruned the flow of auxin down is interrupted and that stimulates the buds right below the pruning cuts to start growing to re-establish the apex. It is a correction mechanism.

    Shoots do not have priority over root. It is the other way around. Often you can chop a healthy plant to the ground and it will regrow but the opposite is not true. When a seed germinates the first thing to emerge is the root followed by the shoot.

  • Kulasa Kalabasa
    5 years ago
    There is an alternating cycle of root and shoot growth in citrus trees. This shows that there is a competition of nutrients between shoot and root growth. When pruned, the tree diverts the nutrients for shoot growth instead of root growth. This was manifested in a pruning experiment ( Syverten, 1994. Partial shoot removal increases net CO2 assimilation and alters water relations of Citrus seedlings pp 497-508).

    That being said, it does not exclude what you said about the auxin concept. Both things take place.
  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    It goes without saying that the plant will have to divert nutrients for new shoot development after pruning - it just lost a part of its food producing factory and the new emerging leaves are not capable of producing anything until they mature. There is a direct relationship between how much roots (feeder roots) are needed to support a given amount of leaf mass. If you prune leaves then they have to catch up and if you prune roots then they have to catch up. If you do nothing then first roots have to grow to increase capacity and then shoots will grow. If it is flowering/fruiting both root and leaf growth will take a backseat to divert energy to the reproductive parts.

    In ground all forms of growth can happen at the same time or in quick succession. In container it is limited by the container size. Once the limit is reached leaf/shoot growth will crawl to a halt and all energyn is diverted to making big thick roots that start circling the container in a desperate attempt to find more conducive environment. Eventually the feeder roots start suffering because bulk of the space is occupied by thick useless roots leading to shoots/leaves suffering too. As a final attempt of survival it will start producing flowers, fruits and seeds.

  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    When you set your thermostat to 70f in the winter, it will not make every part of the room especially the floor 70f too.

    Just measured my living room set at 65F. The thermostat is about halfway up the wall. The floor measures 64.7F and the ceiling measures at 65.5F.

  • PacNorWreck
    5 years ago
    I think it is important to understand that everyone has different heating systems. My house, with radiant heat under the floorboards, probably provides more even heat distribution than a radiator on one side of a room would, and forced air would depend on the number, direction, and placement of the vents. It is probably more important to understand how citrus respond to their environment and then to understand our own growing environment than to establish universal laws of air temperatures and soil temperatures indoors in winter.

    Case in point, the brightest spot indoors for my plants also happened to be drafty - cold air was seeping into the space from my roof deck and hitting the pots before falling down the stairs. I had lots of winter leaf drop in previous winters. This year I added heat mats under my containers and have had multiple flushes and nearly continuous blooms out of my lemon.
  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    From reading all the comments, I learned a lot. From my own findings and reading about other people's experiences, the traditional recommendations of growing citrus don't need to be followed. For example, you don't need a grow light to have healthy trees indoors and you don't need humidity as others like myself don't provide it.

  • Silica
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    " Shoots have priority over root growth"

    Tropic of cancer, we will just have to agree to disagree. The above phrase was taken from notes of Dr. Malcolm Manners, Southern Florida College, Lakeland, Florida .

    Here is an example of root priority over shoots. The development of new roots at the expense or delay of additional shoot or top growth is one way a tree can recover from stress. For example, when nutrients in the soil are insufficient, the tree may produce more root growth than shoot growth. In effect, the tree is “exploring” additional soil volume in an attempt to satisfy overall nutrient demand. A similar effect can occur during drought stress, when shoot and fruit growth are curtailed more than root growth so root growth appears to occur first followed by shoot growth. Thus, moderately drought-stressed roots tend to explore more soil volume than well watered roots. Once roots have re-established the root-to-shoot ratio for existing conditions, new shoots can produce additional photosynthates.

    http://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/IR/00/00/26/65/00001/HS39300.pdf

  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    I fail to get your point here. The way I think of priority is which is more important to the health of the tree. And I contend it is the roots. Your example strengthens that notion even further. When one gets WLD, he/she is immediately concerned because shoot seems important. If nothing is done the plant will recover when conditions become favorable - because roots will go back to functioning properly giving the shoots a chance again. How does one react to WLD? - Make the roots warmer because they are more important for the health of the plant. Which came first? Roots indeed.

    When you say 'shoots take priority over roots' for me it is meaningless. I am sure Dr. Manners had more to write about to explain that position. But I do not see that from your statement. If you or anyone else cares to elaborate on that I am all ears to understand the reasoning behind it.

    If you mean a plant will sacrifice root growth over shoot growth - absolutely can happen. But the other way round is also equally or more possible. It just depends on when you are observing.

  • Silica
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Tropic of Cancer I'm sure you are a wonderful person but, I believe Dr. Malcolm Manners on this subject.

  • tropicofcancer (6b SW-PA)
    5 years ago

    Instead of giving headlines if you take the time to describe your position I would be all ears as I said before.

  • tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a)
    5 years ago

    ToC - just wanted to say you did a great job in this thread.


    Trees have chemical messengers that keep plant central informed of what's going on in the plant. When you prune shoots and foliage, root growth and root division slows or stops, or a fraction of the root mass dies back to a volume that represents more nearly a balanced relationship between the root to shoot ratio. Plants are thrifty and will not wast energy maintaining roots or shoots they cannot support. From the perspective of energy outlay, it is less expensive for a tree to shed roots after the canopy is pruned hard and increase the volume of the root mass later as needed.

    Conversely, when you prune the roots, the top will slow or stop growth; and, if the root pruning is aggressive enough, the tree might shed branches in what seems to be an undefined pattern that varies from species to species. The main reason most temperate broad leaf trees are pruned before bud-break in spring is because roots can be pruned very hard at that time w/o significant loss of top mass because the foliar buds tend to remain dormant, slowly coming back on line as the root system increases in mass and becomes more capable of supporting the new growth, which significantly decreases foliar drought stress. It's less expensive for the tree to shed top growth after hard rootwork, and regrow it later as needed.

    Trees and herbaceous plants do prioritize their parts, but perhaps it's better to say that the strength of energy sinks has a distinct order: Energy is first allocated to respiratory function, i.e. to maintenance of living tissues, then, to production of fine roots, followed by flower and seed production, then primary growth (extension of both roots and shoots), then secondary growth (thickening), and finally, the synthesis of defensive chemicals.


    Steve - the last image of the kumquat you posted on January 23, is not a problem tree; at least it can't be said it's a problem tree based on evidence provided by the image. The kinky trunk does not have the potential to encircle or girdle even part of the trunk circumference, so it's not an issue - at all. As the trunk thickens, the inside of the two curves will fill with new wood and bark. Something that resembles a branch bark ridge will appear for a few years, after which the bark in that area will appear unblemished. There will temporarily be a change in the orientation of any flaking bark for a few years, but that to will disappear. If the tree remains healthy, you will not be able to tell there was anything unusual about the shape of the trunk, except by dissection; however, the shape of the trunk as it currently appears will be forever visible in the trees heartwood until the tree returns to the earth.

    Al


  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Here it is the beginning of April and thought I would give you all an update on how my trees fared. I know it's long and wordy which I despise, but had to give details so others can learn.


    I have 3 trees in a bedroom which has a southern exposure with the window having mini blinds on it. On top portion of the window is also a half moon window which has louvered wood blinds. This bedroom gets natural bright light and can get uncomfortably warm because of the sun hitting the brick veneer of the house. The trees are a one year old New Zealand Lemonade, a Eureka lemon which had root rot 2 years ago and a 3 gallon W. Murcott which I received in November and is still in the original potting medium from Four Winds Growers. So now you know the environment the trees have been in since October. These trees have bloomed, set and dropped fruit, and grew new foliage. I watered sparingly and included Foliage Pro fertilizer at half strength. The only light given was from the window by manipulating the blinds to allow as much sun/light as possible to hit the leaves. The trees are still inside because they have been mite free all winter and see no point in them joining the other trees which do have red spider mites. I did not spray these trees with water for extra humidity throughout the winter.


    In the foyer, I have a Eureka lemon, 2 variegated minneola and a pink variegated Eureka. The room has the same sun exposure and the same type windows as the bedroom, but more of them. I watered them the same as the trees in the bedroom. Now these trees I have been putting outside as much as possible when the temps were above 50* because they are right next to the front door. I have been having a problem with spider mites with this group since February and did spray with Neem oil twice in early fall. I need to spray with Neem oil again, but there is no shade on this side of the house so I have been using the hose and spraying the trees with water when the weather is nice for the past few weeks. It temporarily solves the problem. The trees are currently in bloom and some have set fruit as well. Spray with Neem anyway? While the trees were inside, I did not spritz the trees for extra humidity. I only have been hosing the trees down outside only to control the spider mites.


    The last group of trees were kept in my sunroom. No grow lights used. They all did well with minimum watering which included Foliage Pro. I have a really big problem with red spider mites with this group and couldn't spray with water because the sunroom has very poor ventilation and I was afraid the humidity would encourage mold to grow on the walls if the trees had to be brought in. While in the sunroom, they all grew flower buds over the winter and started blooming in February/March.


    In the sunroom, I had a Meyer lemon tree. I kept this tree inside from October right next to the window and have been bringing it in and outside lately depending on the temps as to not shock it. It only goes outside if the temps are comfortable for me and brought in at night. It currently has bloomed and set fruit. It is inside right now and will go outside when I think it is right. I did hand pollinate the Meyer this year to see if it made a difference. I have lots of fruit thus far. We'll see how they fare with moving the tree in and out and bumping into the door frame. lol.


    Overall, I find it very interesting the trees did as well as they did. The sunroom windows only are on one wall and is full length. All of the them are now outside, except the lemon, and doing beautifully. The trees are blooming and setting fruit. I have not sprayed for the mites yet but have seen ladybugs, a lizard and a tree frog in the trees so hopefully, they are doing a good job with the pests.


    In conclusion, I have learned you DO NOT NEED GROW LIGHTS to overwinter your trees inside. You don't have to spritz them for humidity either. If you acclimate your trees earlier in the season to indoor temps/light than you have to, your trees won't drop their leaves. I learned that If the environment is the same indoors and outdoors, there is no leaf drop. My Meyer lemon proved that theory to be correct. My indoor temps of the house was kept 68* but periodically bumped up the heat depending on how cold I was.


    I did encounter a small problem with the mandarins though. I had to put them back outside in December to get the chilling hours they needed to increase the sugars in the fruit. While the trees were nice inside, the fruit was very bland tasting. They were juicy, but no flavor. So back outside they went until the fruit was harvested and then they all came back inside when the temps got close to freezing. I didn't anticipate dealing with that issue. I had very little leaf drop with them as well as I am assuming they are much hardier all around than the Meyer. Next year, another learning curve and more citrus tree shuffling in late fall/early winter as more trees will be fruit bearing age.


    Last year all my trees were in the sunroom, but I had less trees to contend with which is why I had to put a few in different rooms this winter. I had trees with a northern and southern exposure and they all did well with the exception of spider mites. What they all received since October/November was natural light, damp soil, liquid fertilizer at half strength, and temps moderately warm. I did temp the pots in the sunroom on very cold days and they ranged in the 50s. The room temps were in the same range as the pots with a few degrees difference. The temps in my bedroom and foyer never got below 65* so I know the pots were in the same range. I do live in middle GA so I don't know if my location made a difference or not, but figured I would throw that information in.


    I hope what I learned and shared will help others with their trees next winter. I am going to copy and paste all this information and put it into my citrus journal so if something happens to me, the recipient of the trees, will know what to do.









  • Vladimir (Zone 5b Massachusetts)
    4 years ago

    Spraying with neem may cause damage to your blossoms.

  • Denise Becker
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Everything I have read about spraying citrus trees says don't spray while blooming. Is that because it will travel down into the stigma or or just to protect beneficial insects? Everything points to protecting the beneficial insects.

  • poncirusguy6b452xx
    4 years ago

    I agree about spray and flowers

  • Vladimir (Zone 5b Massachusetts)
    4 years ago

    I doubt that spraying potted plants with neem will hurt a significant number of beneficial insects as long as the spray is limited to the plant itself.