Americans take a stab at funding the wall

Ann

Brian Kolfage, a triple amputee veteran started a GoFundMe campaign to fund the wall, a couple days ago. I first ran across it 16 hours ago, when it had gone from $85,000 to $338,000 in 12 hours. In the last 16 hours, it's grown from $338,000 to $907,000 at a clip of more than $1000 a minute at times. Amazing! Brian's goal is 1 billion because that is currently the GoFundMe limit.

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momj47(7A)

I began to wonder how Republicans and Trump supporters felt.

You're kidding, right ?

Everyone knows how they feel

No one should need a poll to tell them that.


Though it should be interesting, in the coming weeks to hear from defeated/retiring Republican senators and representatives, now that they don't feel threatened by Mr. Trump or the Republican "leadership".

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queenmargo

Over 16M now when I just checked;)

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Ziemia(6a)

Guess some TrumpFans missed the major agreement on the criminal justice reform act signed Friday. I applauded it. Saw it applauded in many articles. Though that good news was over shadowed by national funding and security issues.

"They'll never change their minds despite anything he does. They live and breath anti-Trump everything. "

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purrmich _6

Put that on a graph, margo. For yourself, so that you know how sad it is to take money from people to build a wall that won't save them from all that they fear.

Once you see how the money is now trickling rather than pouring in - extrapolate that number against what the wall will actually cost.

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momj47(7A)

Over 16M now when I just checked;)

Wow, more than halfway there, now



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queenmargo

So much comprehensive reporting. LOL

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purrmich _6

Apparently, being asked to do things like "extrapolate" is threatening to some.

Back to the 'wall'.

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catticusmockingbird

Guess some TrumpFans missed the major agreement on the criminal justice reform act signed Friday. I applauded it. Saw it applauded in many articles. Though that good news was over shadowed by national funding and security issues.


It was overshadowed by Trump. He's his own worst enemy. And then there's the fact that he thinks Kushner is getting too much credit.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Well, actually, vgkg posted party affiliation numbers yesterday (Gallup, if I remember correctly). The chart went way back and included many months in each year. The numbers did not support the "fleeing the party" narrative.

Nor does it fit any measurable influx. The repubs who have sworn off the gop since the trump era have been replaced with trumplodites, many of which have said they never voted before trump came along, so it's evened out, 27% or so repub. Half are old time repubs that hold on, and half new trump folks. Maybe Gallop should ask next time are you a demo, repub, indy, or trumpster. Bet the repub # would drop by half.

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Ziemia(6a)

Remember all the memes about leaving the Dem party right before the Midterms? Notice how they're way down, along with Trump's promises of an end of year 10% tax break for the working folk?

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MissMyGardens

"I find it interesting and entirely predictable that the left's first reaction is to demonize"

I see no place in my comment that demonized veteran. Cited facts. Where they lead is due to veteran's actions.

That comment coming from you is pretty rich...LOL.

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lily316

Are Ann , Rush and the goon trio on Fox and Friends now speaking to tRump again since he showed them his big boy pants?

Stand firm Schummer and Pelosi. You will be in charge next week and he can go suck eggs with this stupid wall.

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Ann

"So basically by Ann' s count healthcare and immigration ( immigration not wall ) are tied in importance yet she seems to think that 2020 will break on one and not the other......never mind the other stuff."

I do? Says you?

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Ann

"Everyone knows how they feel

No one should need a poll to tell them that."

They do? I thought Trump was losing all his support? If you've read HT, one would be quite certain Trump has lost all his support. After all, nearly everyone a liberal knows, who voted for Trump, deeply regrets that vote, right?

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Ann

That's great Ziemia. I applauded the criminal justice legislation too.

ETA: I can't imagine Trump will be counting on your vote because you applauded that legislation:)

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Ann

"Nor does it fit any measurable influx. The repubs who have sworn off the gop since the trump era have been replaced with trumplodites, many of which have said they never voted before trump came along, so it's evened out, 27% or so repub. Half are old time repubs that hold on, and half new trump folks. Maybe Gallop should ask next time are you a demo, repub, indy, or trumpster. Bet the repub # would drop by half."

"measurable influx"? Cool. I thought we were all dying off and then you'd be done with us:) "trumplodites", and they've never voted before but do now because of Trump. Also cool.

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foodonastump

Mid morning Monday, rounding up slightly to 16.5MM.

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM.

Maybe it’ll pick up again after Christmas. Perhaps soy bean farmers would be a good charity?

ETA exact number in case we need to go from tenths to hundredths soon.

$16,473,113

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

"measurable influx"? Cool. I thought we were all dying off and then you'd be done with us:) "trumplodites", and they've never voted before but do now because of Trump. Also cool.

Yep Ann, it's just a change over from those departing the repubs (basically what you'd call rinos, or conservative classic) with those who now claim to be repubs (aka trumpsters, many who never voted before trump came along). So the repub party is really 2 unrelated factions (classic conservative & extreme mob "conservative") which are loosely bound and will split up in due time....and that will be truly cool. Gallop could prove my point if they'd broaden their survey from 3 to 4 groups.

How would you respond Ann, Kjun, Becca, Stan, Pap, Margie, ABH, anyone else? Are you with the repub party or the trump party?

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GOD

FOAS wrote:

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM.

Maybe if they reach out to Mexico? I'm sure they'll pay, just like last time.

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purrmich _6

thanks vgkg and foas for the facts. Facts certainly change the picture.

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Ann

"will split up in due time" - that's an important premise that may be entirely wrong. I think it would be a big mistake to start with that assumption.

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Ann

If the GFM campaign had a way to ensure all donations would go straight to the wall construction, I think the fund would take off like a rocket. Unless that happens, I expect it will die. Too bad too, because individual citizens are ready and willing to help with funding. Many of us strongly see the need for the wall. Our southern border isn't even functioning as a border anymore.

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momj47(7A)

If the GFM campaign had a way to ensure all donations would go straight to the wall construction, I think the fund would take off like a rocket.

Seriously?

Most people donating to this believe the money will go straight to wall construction.

Trump supporters have been shown, over and over again, to be uninformed, misinformed or just plain ignorant of any facts. And in many cases, it's willful.

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queenmargo

You know what? I can not even objectively look at what Trump does anymore. Why? Because the left has hated so hard on the Trump supporters. The name calling and vicious attacks have shut down any criticisms I may have/had about Trump. Supporting him has become more about opposing the left. Knowing anyone other than Trump would have caved long ago to the leftists socialistic agenda will keep me motivated to support Trump in 2020 once again, wall or no wall.

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GOD

If the GFM campaign had a way to ensure all donations would go straight to the wall construction, I think the fund would take off like a rocket.

Oh that's so funny! The trumpsters are the master of excuses

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

"will split up in due time" - that's an important premise that may be entirely wrong. I think it would be a big mistake to start with that assumption.

It's a pretty good assumption Ann, ask yourself, why won't Mitch allow a vote on the bill to protect Mueller? Mitch wants trump to fire him so that he has sound grounds to impeach trump. Although at this point firing Mueller may be moot, too many other investigations going on which will expose trump wrongdoings.

Oh, and you forgot to answer my question Ann, repub or trump party? I'll take over for Gallop on this one.

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momj47(7A)

You know what? I can not even objectively look at what Trump does anymore.

Hahaha

So much for open minds on the right.


You never looked, objectively, at anything President Obama did

And you know why, because the right hated so hard on President Obama.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" Supporting him has become more about opposing the left. "

That's been pretty well understood for quite some time, both for you and others.

ETA: I'm glad you've been able to realize it too.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Margie, can I take you previous posts as a yes for the trump party?

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queenmargo

Then be proud Dems, you have helped re-elect President Trump;)

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foodonastump

You know what? I can not even objectively look at what Trump does anymore.

Anymore?

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purrmich _6

That fund is dwindling because people do retain some common sense.

Where, in the world, do you think trump's base would come up with 1B?? It defies all reason to believe if only the money were going direct to the wall then the fund would grow.

I'd be curious what restrictions are on any GF campaign. What is the largest donation that can be made.

Because, otherwise, it is so much pie in the sky.

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queenmargo

I'd be curious what restrictions are on any GF campaign. What is the largest donation that can be made.

Do some research.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" Then be proud Dems, you have helped re-elect President Trump;)"

Sorry, margie, you can't blame your actions on us. Take responsibility for whatever you do.

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sheesh(5b)

Margie think about what you just said. That is even more dangerous than just plain supporting him. You now understand that you are supporting a bad thing! That you willfully support a president you know to be bad to spite the democrats.

it's one thing to be happy and gay and la la land. It is very different to support for spite, knowing the damage the president is doing to our country.

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queenmargo

sunflower- my point is that I am not alone in feeling like this. My action was voting for Trump. I wished I could have objectively looked at his presidency without the background noise of the left hate. The left hate has taken over the objectivity I would have given Trump. I will take responsibility for what I do.

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queenmargo

sheesh(5b)

Margie think about what you just said. That is even more dangerous than just plain supporting him. You now understand that you are supporting a bad thing! That you willfully support a president you know to be bad to spite the democrats.

YOU think about what I just said. I did not say that I am supporting a bad thing!!!

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" I wished I could have objectively looked at his presidency without the background noise of the left hate. "

People who want to raise concerns about how Trump acts and the faulty decisions he makes feel obligated to do so. What would happen if we said nothing and some people never connected the points we're making? Sorry about the noise, but we just can't stay silent and hope you'll "get it objectively." You see it as hate because that's how he paints it. Honestly, there is not as much hate as you think, but a deep concern that someone unqualified and dangerous is calling the shots.

For every one like you who digs in their heels, there is hopefully a person who connects with what we're saying. And that's what keeps us going.

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queenmargo

it's one thing to be happy and gay and la la land. It is very different to support for spite, knowing the damage the president is doing to our country.

Well, if you supported Obama, then you supported someone knowing the damage he was doing to our country. See how this goes. Wehave a difference of opinion of what damage is.

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sheesh(5b)

Ok, margie, ok.

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queenmargo

Honestly, there is not as much hate as you think, but a concern that someone unqualified and dangerous is calling the shots.

OH, I think the hate is off the charts. Obama had NO qualifications to run this country NONE, he was like a kindergartner acting as a dean of a university.

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sheesh(5b)

I don't know why you couldn't ignore the hate for trump you think you saw. You could have gone directly to the source - you still can! - and see for yourself the damage that is being done.

I was/am able to ignore the hate for Obama and Hillary. I rely on facts.

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sheesh(5b)

Nevermind, Maegie. Merry Christmas.

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momj47(7A)

my point is that I am not alone in feeling like this

That's even more troubling, and not at all how I imagine you to be

I wished I could have objectively looked at his presidency without the background noise of the left hate.

It's just background noise, it's not revealed truth

Plenty of us looked objectively during President Obama's administration. We criticized his polices here on HT, many times. (I don't think you were on HT then.)

It requires that we continue to honor important values, in the face of knee-jerk support and herd mentality, for and against.

And it requires that we stay informed, and not just with ideas that support our current bias, but other ideas, too.

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maifleur01

If a person can not look at what a person is doing without looking at what other groups are telling you either for or against that person is only following the crowd and not really looking. Sometimes it helps to take a very deep breath and ask if what is happening is right or wrong and how many people does it hurt. Will it eventually hurt me and mine,

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Kathy

Fox has convinced The RW that Obama damaged the country. That would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. He will go down as one of the best Presidents while Trump has already taken the title of worst.

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queenmargo

Merry Christmas sheesh;)

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queenmargo

That's even more troubling, and not at all how I imagine you to be

mom- please tell me, how do you imagine me?

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queenmargo


sheesh(5b)

I don't know why you couldn't ignore the hate for trump you think you saw.

LOL- now you are telling me that I imagined the hate for Trump? LOL LOL

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"Obama had NO qualifications to run this country NONE "


He was a Senator in the US Congress and had been a state senator in IL before that. He is a lawyer and understands laws. He was qualified. Stop letting people feed you lies.


And he hired qualified people to help him. How many people in his Administration were indicted? Zero. How many people in his Administration quit in disgrace or frustration?

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queenmargo

Obama endorsed Hillary, I think he said a vote for her would be a vote for him. HAH, how did that work out.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Well, I do have to give the trumpsters here some credit for at least not saying that they are repubs. kudos to you know whodos.

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momj47(7A)

Obama endorsed Hillary, I think he said a vote for her would be a vote for him. HAH, how did that work out.

Ha?

She got three million more votes than your Mr. Trump

And things would have turned out better, much, much better, if she had won.

We wouldn't be in the gawdawful mess the US is in now.

America is not first, America is alone

And now the Democrats are the majority in the House of Representatives

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queenmargo

OK I am throwing up the white flag and throwing down some Tennessee Fire.... have a good day, a nice Christmas Eve, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year.........Peace Out!

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Ann

Vgkg, I don't see two parties, I don't think McConnell has a desire to see Trump impeached, and as far as your definition of two parties (with which I disagree and think the difference pales in comparison to what the Dems have going on), I'm with both or either one. I wish I could stay and catch up and contribute to this thread, but I'm off for the day. Merry Christmas everyone.

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momj47(7A)

From another thread

Actually, it is really the Dem's cause they don't want to beef up our border security, and I'm all for the President taking this stand.

Wow, have you got that wrong. SMH

The Democrats, and most Americans, have no problem "beefing up border security", as you put it. We'd also like a new, comprehensive immigration policy that deals with 21st Century realities.

But we all know McConnell won't let that happen.

And neither will your Mr. Trump

What the Democrats, and most Americans DON"T WANT, is a wall on our southern border. Not now, not ever.

The Democrats, and most Americans, know a wall won't solve any immigration problems. Sure, it might keep a couple of thousand people out, but that's about it.

And a wall, most assuredly, won't address the issues facing America and the 12 million undocumented immigrants living in the US now. And neither will your Mr. Trump's increasingly cruel and racist Executive Orders.

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purrmich _6

I doubt there's a real and valid argument for the gop being unchanged since trump; many exiting - some now call themselves Independents; the TP took over and conservatism isn't recognizable. Many gop MoC retired, rather than continue on under trump. The right is now the far far right - and this collection to fund the wall - shows people who aren't using logic and who think that what they want is what they should have. All very undemocratic of them.

The gop is splintered and if you read up on it, it's undeniable. "Feelings" about the gop and "opinions" are not factual.

I keep saying that the gop doesn't have the candidates that Dems have. Young, energetic and up against, in elections, older white men. When the youth in this country are either Independent or Dem and rarely gop, you can't evade that truth.

Being in denial is one way to cope.

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llucy

vgkg: Gallop could prove my point if they'd broaden their survey from 3 to 4 groups.

I'm curious about this also. I know my parents consider themselves republicans despite their disgust for Trump. And are as mystified by this cult of Trump as I am as an independent.

I don't know if there are actually 4 parties now or not, but I wonder where 'Trumplicans' will be if there is no 2020 for him. Or if doesn't finish out the next 2 years.

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jillinnj

I wished I could have objectively looked at his presidency without the background noise of the left hate. The left hate has taken over the objectivity I would have given Trump.

What's with blaming others for your inability to be objective?

What happened to personal responsibility? Does that only apply to those "others" you don't like?

Of course, when someone bases their vote on how someone looks riding down an escalator, I guess this is all that can be expected.


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jillinnj

Obama had NO qualifications to run this country NONE, he was like a kindergartner acting as a dean of a university.

Please give examples. Concrete examples. Not Fox talking points.

Hint: this is not an answer to the question:

Obama endorsed Hillary, I think he said a vote for her would be a vote for him. HAH, how did that work out.

ETA -

Ah, I see...after the tough questions, this is the response:

OK I am throwing up the white flag

I'm shocked! SHOCKED.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Trump is going off the rails from fear of Mueller and what legal action is coming, and his supporters still have the delusion that DJT will be a viable candidate for re-election.

< Shrugging my shoulders. >

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Chi


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catticusmockingbird

You know what? I can not even objectively look at what Trump does anymore. Why? Because the left has hated so hard on the Trump supporters. The name calling and vicious attacks have shut down any criticisms I may have/had about Trump. Supporting him has become more about opposing the left.

Otherwise known as cutting off your nose to spite your face.

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purrmich _6

And scapegoating. Not my fault - it's the left who made me do it.

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llucy

purrmich: That fund is dwindling because people do retain some common sense.

Or perhaps the people who donated are tapped out?

Where are the big donaters? Those folks at Mar-a-lago to whom Trump crowed he all made a lot richer after his tax cut passed?

Why aren't Trump's wealthy friends and business associates contributing here? Heck, together they should be able to come up with 5 billion easily for a cause they believe in. Unless...well, they don't believe in it.

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purrmich _6

You know what they say about a fool and his money ....

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Chi

Because they know this money will never go towards a wall. I suspect the money will quietly sit there for a while so people can forget about it. And it wouldn't surprise me if the organizer claims the donors insisted he keep the money when he tried to refund it.

Donors should question his vagueness on the law, on his White House contacts, on this "to be determined" charity. I have no sympathy for those who are swindled based on hatred.

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Kathy

The problem is Trump is using our money to pay his enablers. The ones he has appointed and the ones who support him.

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maifleur01

One thing that I have noticed on these GFM things is that unless you use a third party source there is not way to donate. Every time I see one of what I call "red flag" ones I wonder how many solicitors tell the people to just buy a debit or credit card to donate. Most will just throw those cards away after the use. The charities that this remainder is given will probably be his own group. Headed by him. Used for his own personal expenses calling them charity expenses.

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llucy

Chi: And it wouldn't surprise me if the organizer claims the donors insisted he keep the money when he tried to refund it.

Up thread someone posted from the organizer's website that he said the money could be refunded, but many of the people who donated would rather their money go to charity instead of being refunded in the event the wall wasn't built.

Not saying this fellow is running a scam, but if he is already saying people don't want refunds ...it gives him A LOT of leeway to do what he wants with millions of dollars.

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nopartyghost

I just read on CBS news that now the wack a doodle in chief is claiming his wall will be paid for with money from the government shutdown. There is something very wrong with him mentally.

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chase_gw

......and bobble heads will bobble.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Ok Ann, I think that 2019 will decide which of our assumptions is correct, 2020 at the latest, 2019 should be very interesting. McConnell may not want to impeach trump, but depending upon the Mueller report (we're talking donald here) and several other assorted investigations Mitch may have no choice. He may have to impeach in order save what's left of the gop classic brand and hope it grows in strength again one day.

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foodonastump

Interrupting festivities to report...


$16,890,880

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM. Monday to Tuesday, 0.4MM


Guess everyone’s busy... maybe tomorrow it’ll pick up.

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Ann

"You know what? I can not even objectively look at what Trump does anymore. Why? Because the left has hated so hard on the Trump supporters. The name calling and vicious attacks have shut down any criticisms I may have/had about Trump. Supporting him has become more about opposing the left. Knowing anyone other than Trump would have caved long ago to the leftists socialistic agenda will keep me motivated to support Trump in 2020 once again, wall or no wall."

I'm far behind on this thread and just picking up where I last read. This is an interesting comment to me. I get it. The left has surpassed all political viciousness I've ever seen, IMO too - both toward Trump and weirdly (to me) toward any person who simply voted (for Trump) as they wanted to. Trump seems like a nice guy, in comparison, because it's gotten so extreme. That's what has gotten so weird. I couldn't stand Obama and thought he was a terrible president, but I never despised anyone who simply chose to vote for him. Again, that's what has gotten so weird and makes many of us really "have Trump's back". The attacks of of the left on Trump and anyone who voted for him aren't convincing us to join the left or agree with the left, but they're convincing us that the left is mean and dangerous.

Each day I scan my Comcast home page which is set to show me political and financial news. It's remarkable how each story about anything Trump tries to outdo the next in its negativity, and the doom and gloom titles of the articles have become almost funny. Maybe one in a hundred articles will even discuss any good aspect of anything going on - whether it be the economic numbers, trade improvements, criminal justice reforms, jobs, or foreign policy (like Trump's positive and possibly beneficial relationship with Mexico's new far left leader). So, I get Margie's point. The left is so mean in general, it's making opposing them move further up the ladder than the "support the right" side of that equation.

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Ann

"Margie think about what you just said. That is even more dangerous than just plain supporting him. You now understand that you are supporting a bad thing! That you willfully support a president you know to be bad to spite the democrats.

it's one thing to be happy and gay and la la land. It is very different to support for spite, knowing the damage the president is doing to our country."

This is just simply incorrect. We like the policies Trump is working so hard to implement and we think they are just what the country needs. Our political views are different from yours and, we happen to think, the political views you believe in are what will damage our country.

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momj47(7A)

The left has surpassed all political viciousness I've ever seen, IMO too - both toward Trump and weirdly (to me) toward any person who simply voted (for Trump) as they wanted to.

No, my dear, your Mr. Trump has surpassed all political viciousness. He stands head and shoulders above everyone else

Trump seems like a nice guy, in comparison

You have got to be kidding














Do you need more proof?

And apparently, pointing out, to his supporters, that fact that Mr. Trump is a racist, lying, misogynist is somehow vicious?

The right needs to get it's moral compass re-calibrated.

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Ann

"You see it as hate because that's how he paints it. Honestly, there is not as much hate as you think, but a deep concern that someone unqualified and dangerous is calling the shots.

For every one like you who digs in their heels, there is hopefully a person who connects with what we're saying. And that's what keeps us going."

I don't think so. I think she sees it as hate because it's what is demonstrated rather than painted or seen. It's what the left shows and lives. I doubt there are more than very, very few people who didn't already and previously see political views the way the left does, that now do. One would have to want to "connect with" explosive anger to want to join the left. The left often talks about a "cult" or other similar terms when describing Trump supporters. I think whatever truth is in that has been more a result of the left than the right. The actions, words, and, I'm guessing, thoughts of the left have become venomous, not inviting or convincing. The left is where the true cult has formed, IMO.

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Ann

"OH, I think the hate is off the charts."

I agree.

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Ziemia(6a)

Criminal justice reform comes from *bipartisan* work in Congress and apparently Jared's time. So kudos go to both the 45 administration and Congress and to Trump for signing it.

I'm holding off on the Farm Bill as it's so massive more things can take to come to light. BUT the changes to hemp factors is hugely positive and has been long in the works.

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Ziemia(6a)

Oh, wait, this thread is about funding the wall. Any update from the Chief of Staff?

PS: Nixon never lost support among his die-hard fans.

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catticusmockingbird

Trump just shortened his border wall from 2,000 miles to 550. Maybe if some of you kick in he can get it done. LOL

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momj47(7A)

"OH, I think the hate is off the charts."

Yes, Mr. Trump's hate is off the charts.

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Ziemia(6a)

Don't ignore that Syria's Assad seems to be killing off many dissidents. One way to take care of opposition.

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chase_gw

So how is the GFM project gong? Ann, and company seem to have lost interest.

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queenmargo

Last I checked this morning it was 17.2M

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foodonastump

Oops a little late today!

$17,205,810

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM. Monday to Tuesday, 0.4MM. Tuesday to Wednesday $300K.


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chase_gw

Thanks FOAS....wonder when we'll hear what is going to happen to the money ?

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llucy

....wonder when we'll hear what is going to happen to the money ?

Since the goal is 1 Billion (the gofundme cap) it could be awhile.

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mayflowers

Maybe they'll spend their Christmas money on the wall.

All I want for Christmas is a big beautiful wall

a big beautiful wall

a big beautiful wall

All I want for Christmas is a big beautiful wall

So trump can keep out rapists.

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Becca Reese

$18M

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elvis

Just stay out of elevators, mayflowers, and you'll be fine.

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foodonastump

$18M

fake news.

$17,326,077

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Stan Areted

If they built wall portions with what they had already collected--and pronto-- I think they'd get the rest.


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foodonastump

If they built wall portions with what they had already collected--and pronto-- I think they'd get the rest.

If they build a portion of the wall with all the funds they’ve collected to date, people will look at that tiny mile or so of wall and feel pretty stupid.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" -- I think they'd get the rest."

Nah, they're getting tired and they needed money for lottery tickets and Starbucks.

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Stan Areted

Nah, they're getting tired and they needed money for lottery tickets and Starbucks.


As opposed to abortion money and Starbucks?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

With free birth control, they are less likely to need money for abortion.

Thanks, Obama.


https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/access-birth-control-through-aca-drives-down-abortion-rate

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

How about those who support building the wall don hardhats and work gloves and put in some real work. That is how large projects are accomplished in my community garden... teamwork.

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queenmargo

How about those who support building the wall don hardhats and work gloves and put in some real work. That is how large projects are accomplished in my community garden... teamwork.

I am sure there would be a YUGE turnout ;)

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Just like there is huge money being donated for the wall?

As of right now, 7:52 AM eastern time: 17,444,092

Not much change since 14 hours ago: 17,326,077

It still hasn't reached the $18M that becca claimed, even with rounding. :(

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dandyfopp

LOL.

Well it is a nice chunk of change for Korfage, if he can stay out of jail.

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momj47(7A)

I am sure there would be a YUGE turnout ;)

Will you be there?

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Americans take a stab at funding the wall

Mexico supplied the knife? but no pesos.

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chase_gw

Apparently Ann , like most Trump supporters, has lost interest in this wonderful idea

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sunflower_petal(5a)

$17,680,208

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purrmich _6

That amount should build a wall big enough to keep the trumpsters safely in one location.

Pick a spot, any spot. Most of us would gladly give land.

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Ziemia(6a)

Still not 18M

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foodonastump

$17,205,810

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM. Monday to Tuesday, 0.4MM. Tuesday to Wednesday $300K. Wed to Thur $238K.

Slight uptick: Thurs to Fri, $331K. Musta been that stock market rally. This donation had me do a double-take:


Nope, not him!

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Ziemia(6a)

Still not 18M?

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

"... this thing sputtering out soon around a 30-40 million..."

Ok, I'll admit that I was wrong.............I way overestimated.

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elvis

Relax, no one will remember.

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GOD

You've got to wonder how many of the "anonymous" donations continue to come from those who will profit from the wall

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dockside_gw

Stan Areted

If they built wall portions with what they had already collected--and pronto-- I think they'd get the rest.

Before one foot of the wall being proposed can be built, there must first be acquisition of the land by eminent domain. Then, after that (and the court cases that will arise as a result), infrastructure must be built to get people and material to the building site. Contracts must be let. All this takes lots of money and not a square inch of wall to show for it.

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chase_gw

Never mind the fact that only Congress can authorize spending.

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mayflowers

Trump promised just the other day it would be built by election day 2020.

I can't take all this lying...I mean winning!

https://www.themercury.com.au/news/world/trump-sets-2020-completion-date-for-border-wall/video/629790aed045b6cd28f86c6f3ee9a20c

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chase_gw

He'll just say it's built and they will believe him.

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Chi

He'll probably take pictures of the portions of walls already there and declare victory, lol.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Well, he has already tweeted photos of wall construction, and said his behemoth wall had started being constructed.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/28/trump-border-wall-construction-photo-tweet

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Kitchenwitch111


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mayflowers

Exactly how hard did trump try to make Mexico pay for it? Basically they said no way, Jose and he folded. Some great negotiator.

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Iowacommute

I would love for Glow Stick and his ilk to start taking land by eminent domain in order to build this wall.

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cattyles

That might separate the Trump supporters from the true Conservatives and Libertarians in short order here in Texas.

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maifleur01

Can you imagine how irate people would be if the government came and just took their homes. It could be the property of the ones that want others property taken next time. A very slippery slope that could effect anyone anywhere in this country.

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purrmich _6

Amazing! Brian's goal is 1 billion because that is currently the GoFundMe limit.

Thought whole thought is amazing. :)))

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foodonastump

Off-cycle update for Ziemia :)


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foodonastump

$18,026,078

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM. Monday to Tuesday, 0.4MM. Tuesday to Wednesday $300K. Wed to Thur $238K. Thurs to Fri, $331K. Friday to Saturday, $821K.

Definite uptick; let’s see if it sticks. Apparently even some prominent Dems are getting in on the action:


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catticusmockingbird

Speaking of Pelosi, why hasn't the great deal maker contacted her for the past 18 days? What's that man doing? Just sitting in the WH tweeting and stuffing his face?

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momj47(7A)

Trump retreats from public view as shutdown continues over border wall fight

While lawmakers left town, the president emphasized his decision to cancel a trip to Florida and stay in Washington, but he has not used this time to engage in negotiations or seize the public stage and make his case for funding the border wall. Instead, he’s filled the silence with tweets.

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Kathy

Foas

People donate money in their name. It doesn’t mean anything.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Speaking of Pelosi, why hasn't the great deal maker contacted her for the past 18 days?

trump should have been in contact with paul ryan for the past month to work out a deal, he still has a couple of days left, but ryan is too eager packing his bags. The newz pundits putting all of this on Pelosi while ryan sits on his thumb.

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foodonastump

Foas

People donate money in their name. It doesn’t mean anything.

Yes.

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Ziemia(6a)

Thanks for the update.

With nearly 300,000 donors maybe that means 600,000 voters?

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mayflowers

Mulvaney said he's lowered his request for the wall but they haven't revealed what that number is. The Democrats didn't make a counteroffer--they have no reason to give in. WH insiders say it's not about whether he wins or loses--he just needs to give his base the perception that he is a fighter. He's waging his war through Twitter threats and it's really quite comical to see how ineffective he is.

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momj47(7A)



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Ann

Vgkg, Ryan's done. It's Pelosi's turn. We're happy to wait a few days for her.

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purrmich _6

Ryan wasn't working with trump and trump won't work with Pelosi. The Great Negotiator is like more like the Wizard - hiding behind a curtain.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Yeah Ann, ryan is done in 2 days, he might as well have been done 2 years ago, and he was. Stick a fork in him.

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steve2416

Momj47, I liked that: Carter is a true builder. I never heard of him cheating his contractors either.

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Ann

Vgkg, I had great hopes for Ryan and his future several years ago. He's been a let down IMO.

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chase_gw

Ryan never wanted the job, he knew he couldn't corral the far right . Something Boehner warned him about. He must be so disappointed that he accomplished very little in his tenure and he never saw his passion for entitlement reform come to be.

I don't think we have heard the end of him though


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purrmich _6

"Entitlement reform", yeah let's see that being sold to the citizens. You have to be very dense not to understand the relationship between tax breaks for the rich and the need to trim other parts of the budget.

And rather than going after the military budget - which needs a reality check - go after the supposed big debt makers.

Like smoke and mirrors.

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Stan Areted


steve2416

Momj47, I liked that: Carter is a true builder. I never heard of him cheating his contractors either.


Maybe he just thought about it "in his heart.";)

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momj47(7A)

No, "Stan" that was just lust

SMH

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Vgkg, I had great hopes for Ryan and his future several years ago. He's been a let down IMO.

His sole job was to push through his corporate tax cut as repayment to his sponsors. Mission accomplished, he's getting out of town before the accelerated fed debt hits the fan. One of the last of the so-called "young guns". rubio is the last one standing.

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purrmich _6

The 'great hope' was "entitlement reform" IOW taking away SS and Medicare. Ryan may think his time is still to come to do just that.

I doubt Dems will forget that's what the POT and TP are all about.

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Ann

Those programs definitely need reform or they'll both go broke. Medicare first, which is on track to be depleted in 2026.

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Ann

This from PBS News Hour, June 2018:

"WASHINGTON (AP) — Medicare will run out of money sooner than expected, and Social Security’s financial problems can’t be ignored either, the government said Tuesday in a sobering checkup on programs vital to the middle class.

The report from program trustees says Medicare will become insolvent in 2026 — three years earlier than previously forecast. Its giant trust fund for inpatient care won’t be able to fully cover projected medical bills starting at that point.

The report says Social Security will become insolvent in 2034 — no change from the projection last year."

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purrmich _6

Cha-ching, cha-ching - what's the latest total?

Eagerly awaiting the 1 Billion mark. :)))

Some think it isn't much money at all.

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mayflowers

Just days ago trump was firm on $5 billion. Heard on the news he's lowered it to something in the $2 billion range. Who still thinks the wall will ever be built?

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foodonastump

Seems to have petered out again; worst day yet. But according to Kolfage, speaking on Lou Dobbs’ show, some huge news is coming out next week which will have donations pouring back in. Stay tuned!

$18,213,817

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM. Monday to Tuesday, 0.4MM. Tuesday to Wednesday $300K. Wed to Thur $238K. Thurs to Fri, $331K. Friday to Saturday, $821K. Sat to Sun $188K.


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momj47(7A)

Florida man starts GoFundMe to pay for tunnels under Trump's border wall

A Florida man launched a GoFundMe campaign to raise money to buy shovels for people planning to build tunnels under President Trump’s proposed border wall, according to a local ABC station.

Torres’s campaign page also says donations would go to the American Civil Liberties Union.

“The American Civil Liberties Union which is focused on defending the rights of immigrant families and says it ‘won't stop fighting until families are reunited,’ ” Torres wrote on the page.

Torres’s campaign has so far raised $3,061 of its $150 million goal as of Saturday afternoon.

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mayflowers

Dozens of liberal, immigration, labor and environmental groups including the ACLU signed a letter to Democratic leaders last week telling them not to give trump one penny for his wall. Our leaders know we stand with them.

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Ann

"A Florida man launched a GoFundMe campaign to raise money to buy shovels for people planning to build tunnels under President Trump’s proposed border wall, according to a local ABC station."

And, like so many Dems, he likely touts that he supports border security.

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ann_t

"$18,213,817"


Well as Dockside posted above "a fool and his money are soon parted". Lots of republican fools.

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queenmargo

Lots of republican fools.

Lots of Democrat fools.

Lots of Canadian fools.

and so it goes.........your point?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The amount raised so far could buy a nice property/house in Malibu. (Paying the yearly property taxes will take another GoFundMe campaign.)

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

600 posts......this thread, like the donations, has run it's course.

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roxsol

I’ll say. The last few days have been a bit of a slog.

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Ziemia(6a)

About That Wall they're trying to fund because all the TrumpFans out there and here insist it is most definitely needed -- turns out the Trump administration stopped thinking The Wall was a solution long ago.... So will all of them now start saying they didn't mean an actual wall along the entire (or nearly entire???) Southern Border?

==========

Mr. Kelly, whose last day in his role is Monday, said he had sought advice from Customs and Border Protection officials early in 2017, when he was the homeland security secretary. Mr. Kelly said he was told that “we need a physical barrier in certain places, we need technology across the board, and we need more people.”

He went on: “The president still says ‘wall’ — oftentimes frankly he’ll say ‘barrier’ or ‘fencing,’ now he’s tended toward steel slats. But ***** we left a solid concrete wall early on in the administration, when we asked people what they needed and where they needed it.”

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Ziemia(6a)

Note that what Kelly says is needed is what most Dems say is needed (they already have money to build the steel slats and most hasn't yet been spent)

PS: the article I quoted from is in the NYTimes.

The interview was with the LA times... https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-john-kelly-exit-interview-20181230-story.html

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catticusmockingbird

Ziemia, you know they don't like facts.

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Kathy

Trump won’t put more people to process migrants. He could have done that from day one and stopped a lot of the problems with the children and overcrowding. He doesn’t want to solve the problem until he extracts the amount of money he wants from the American people. The money Mexico was going to pay.

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roxsol

The latest;


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purrmich _6

That must be the latest thing on the frw media. We hear it here, and trump tweets it.


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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Key word in the trump tweet "around"

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Ann

"He went on: “The president still says ‘wall’ — oftentimes frankly he’ll say ‘barrier’ or ‘fencing,’ now he’s tended toward steel slats. But ***** we left a solid concrete wall early on in the administration, when we asked people what they needed and where they needed it.”"

Perfect, call it a barrier or call it steel slats.

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Ann

"Trump won’t put more people to process migrants. He could have done that from day one and stopped a lot of the problems with the children and overcrowding. "

I don't know how Trump feels about this but I am skeptical about quicker processing and more manpower to facilitate that. We have a backlog of asylum cases in the hundreds of thousands (and the backlog was already in the hundreds of thousands when Trump took office). If we're processing a reasonable number now, there is no need to process faster because so many are showing up at the border and want to live in the US. The important factor is what is manageable and reasonable for the US, not how many people around the world have decided they want to live in our country.

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roxsol

Key word in the trump tweet "around"

Vgkg, that’s what I was thinking.

eta And if the Mexican border wall is ever built, will Americans then be able to remove all private property walls since the “bad guys” are now not coming in?

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momj47(7A)

Liberal hypocrites!!!!

Oh dear, she's calling liberals hypocrites

I'm shocked, SHOCKED

I guess that's all she's got these days

It's getting harder and harder to defend Trump's actions

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queenmargo

And if the Mexican border wall is ever built, will Americans then be able to remove all private property walls since the “bad guys” are now not coming in?

No, of course not! We have enough home grown "bad guys" that are LEGAL doing ILLEGAL things.

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roxsol

No, of course not! We have enough home grown "bad guys" that are LEGAL doing ILLEGAL things.

Then the wall isn’t going to make Americans any safer?

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Becca Reese

Perfect, call it a barrier or call it steel slats.

Ann, Dems will continue this silly game of "But Trump called it a 'wall'", because they know their support of a barrier will forever be on record, as will their campaigning on the EXACT same things Trump has when it comes to immigration reform and border security. So, the only thing they have is this PATHETIC attempt to keep the conversation from moving forward, by saying "Trump wanted a wall from coast to coast, and Mexico was going to pay for it".


Trump's base has moved on, much to the chagrin of he Dems. Trump's base knows and accepts America will have to pay for the wall. That's ok. Trump's base knows and accepts that "wall" is and ALWAYS WAS a fluid term. So, sure, make it a fence or slats or whatever fits best in places. That's ok. Trump's base knows and accepts that the wall will be a couple/few hundred miles total, and not contiguous. No kidding!

That's ok.

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purrmich _6

Awww, trump's base knows all those things? That he never meant Mexico would pay for the wall? That it won't be a wall, after all?

Hilarious!!

Good luck and we will watch and see what actually happens rather than fantasyland.

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mayflowers

It's about time trump's base woke up to the realities of the wall.

One down, hundreds more trumpian lies to go!

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catticusmockingbird

OMG! These people are something else!

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queenmargo

Then the wall isn’t going to make Americans any safer?

Then why did Obama put a wall "around" his house?

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mayflowers

Because of the crazy trump supporters.

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Becca Reese

Walls have been proven to reduce illegal immigration, crime and druge.

See: YUMA

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roxsol

Then why did Obama put a wall "around" his house?

Papparazzi, fans, admirers, snoopers, privacy and security. He didn’t put a fence, slats, wall on one side.


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Becca Reese

I don't recall Republicans/conservatives harassing Democrats in restaurants, movies theaters and their homes where they raise their children.

I don't have a problem with Obama putting walls and fences around all of his several houses. He just should expect that I feel any different about my sovereign country.

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queenmargo

LOL- if we could get more money we could do "around".

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Becca Reese

margievank

LOL- if we could get more money we could do "around".

Protect that northern border, right margie?



;-)

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mayflowers

Go fund it, Marg. You might even get an appearance on Fox. You and Lou. I'd watch!

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roxsol

LOL, and a dome over the entire country to stop the fly-ins.

The idea of the wall/slats/fence is ridiculous for so many reasons.


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queenmargo

Who is Lou?

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queenmargo

roxsol- at one time people thought getting an airplane to fly was ridiculous too.

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Becca Reese

The idea of the wall/slats/fence is ridiculous for so many reasons.

Just wondering if you felt this way in 2006? When Obama campaigned on it? When Chuck Schumer said virtually the same things Trump has said?

When Hillary voted for the Fence Act?


If you supported it then, why did you change your mind?


Further, to what do you attribute the vast improvement in Yuma when they built the barrier wall/fence there? If not the physical barrier, what?

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mayflowers

Lou Dobbs, Marg. Kolfage is supposed to make a big announcement on his show. That could be you!

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queenmargo

Lou Dobbs, Marg. Kolfage is supposed to make a big announcement on his show. That could be you!

Is this like the Publishers Clearing House, LOL

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roxsol

roxsol- at one time people thought getting an airplane to fly was ridiculous too.

???

Okay, Trump truly has you hornswoggled. You better hope the GoFundMe picks up again. It seems to me America could put the money to much better use than a wall/fence.


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cattyles

I don't remember wall discussions in 2006. But I would have never been for a barrier on the border that is harmful to the wildlife, water supplies and migration patterns.

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Chi

Lol, Obama's security concerns do not reflect the average US citizen. If we were all under that kind of outside threat, it would be a completely different story. Though if we were all walled-in, I'd be much more afraid of US citizens than immigrants.

A wall around the country? No more beach or ocean access, no more homes with water views. Like a prison against our own fear mongering. Sounds reasonable.

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Ann

A barrier in Israel not only made a difference, but a really dramatic one.

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Chi

Israel is not the same. If we were at war and seeing the kind of terrorism from Mexico that Israel has dealt with, then that would be a different story. If Mexican suicide bombers were blowing up American citizens on a regular basis, then yes, we should get a wall.

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roxsol

One of my comments is missing, so I am bowing out of this conversation.

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queenmargo

Well, don't look at me. If I bowed out of a conversation every time my comments went missing lol lol

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purrmich _6

Yeah, Israel has a wall that makes a ghetto for the Palestinians.

Keeps them from family, friends, jobs, hospitals. What a wonderful wall that is.


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purrmich _6

Sorry, Rox. You've never posted anything remotely flaggable.

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Ziemia(6a)

About more staff to process:

After an application is accepted, it must be assessed. That takes staff. With insufficient staff, the applicant waits somewhere out in America.

90% are rejected.

If the time to assess/ process is cut in half, those who are rejected (the 90%) are removed sooner.

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Ziemia(6a)

I'm Ok with walls at the southern border - just not everywhere. Much of it is already walled or fenced. Probably enough until the other identified measures have been implemented.

So, the Trump loyalists are now against the current WH policy (current as of last week, I guess)?

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foodonastump

You come to a 600-thread looking for something interesting? That’s some optimism! But let me try:

As I was preparing for this morning’s update, I scanned to see if there were any “clever” donor names. Saw this one but couldn’t quite place it:

Googled and found a trumpeter (not trumpster!) with that name, but that’s not who I was thinking of. Perhaps Joe Rogan or Jeff Rogan or Seth Rogan? I was also definitely not thinking of Rogan Josh, but after reading a few recipes I thought this might just be something I can actually taste through this miserable cold I’ve got.

Hit the spot!

But now I’ve definitely hit a wall. Off to bed!

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momj47(7A)

Yeah, Israel has a wall that makes a ghetto for the Palestinians.

Inside the walls of the Jewish Ghettos







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Ann

"After an application is accepted, it must be assessed. That takes staff. With insufficient staff, the applicant waits somewhere out in America.

90% are rejected.

If the time to assess/ process is cut in half, those who are rejected (the 90%) are removed sooner."

Ziemia, that is like putting a band aid on a cut. We need to prevent the cut to begin with. The laws around releasing those who are awaiting processing simply need to be changed. The second that stops, I think the entire situation would change dramatically. That's such an obvious and counterproductive loophole!

In my car the other day, I listened to a radio discussion about asylum vs refugee status. If we didn't have the "release" rules, people could apply for refugee status and not make the dangerous journey that is flooding our border and introducing all these dangerous treks. This definition from NOLO. I find it stunning that we as Americans are OK with the "entering illegally" part in the last sentence. If Dems continue to give excuses for our broken system and aren't willing to come together to fix these glaring issues and loopholes, I think you'll damage your future as it's simply illogical to say you support border security and then fight to preserve its biggest problems and loopholes.

"What's the difference between asylum and refugee status under U.S. immigration laws--that is, who should seek asylum status, and who should seek refugee status? It's simply a matter of where you are when you apply. People outside of the U.S. must apply for refugee status. People who have already made it to the U.S. border or the interior (perhaps by using a visa or by entering illegally) can apply for asylum status."


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Ann

FOAS, I hope you feel better soon. I sure sympathize as I got hammered with a cold/flu type illness on Friday and am struggling to function. I was proud of getting a few things around the house done today as, yesterday, I felt too lousy to get out of bed all day long.

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Ziemia(6a)

Even the WH is reportedly against building a wall along the entire southern border.

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Ann

I think the "entire" border discussion is old news. The discussion is building a border where it is feasible and sensible which is not the "entire" border.

Ziemia and anyone else willing to discuss it - I got to thinking during dinner and want to ask. How do you feel about the law/rule where asylum seekers are released into the US until processed? Do you hope Congress works to eliminate that requirement or do you want it to remain as is?

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catticusmockingbird

margievank

Then the wall isn’t going to make Americans any safer?

Then why did Obama put a wall "around" his house?




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chase_gw

Seems like the notion of " wall" is now just a metaphor for comprehensive border security... I smell capitulation dressed as a win.

Border security funding in return for DACA and, apparently according to Graham, permanent residency for those brought to the US as a result of devestating earthquakes and other environmental catastrophes ...ie Haiti? Something I never would have expected. Pefect....a bonus for Canada if it should ever really come to be.

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Ann

"Seems like the notion of " wall" is now just a metaphor for comprehensive border security"

It needs to include, and not prohibit, a physical barrier.

ETA: and not prohibit


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Kathy

There is a huge backlog of asylum seekers right now (318,000) and it can take 2 years to get resolved. Most aslyees are from China. They fly in and apply for refugee or asylum. They don’t come in from the Mexican border.

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Ann

I think it's time for Dems to begin to talk about what they will support in terms of border security and beyond the vague "more technology" term. I'm really hoping some will answer my question about whether or not they support a bipartisan effort on changing the catch and release loopholes in our system. For example, if Congress changes the law such that a person who entered illegally was then prohibited from applying for asylum and deported immediately due to breaking the law by entering illegally, will Dems support that change and encourage their leaders to work with Pubs to accomplish it. If not, why?

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Chi

A wall would just slow people down, though. There are already many tunnels underneath the border, financed and maintained by the cartels. People can go over and around. You aren't going to stop the drugs and the criminals with walls. It's a minor hindrance with a massive cost.

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Chi

Ann, I would not support that. I don't believe that crossing the border illegally (which is only a misdemeanor) should mean prohibition from applying for asylum and immediate deportation. I think everyone should be given the right to apply for asylum.

Ideally people will enter at ports of entry where they are supposed to, but we've heard where immigrants are turned away because they are full and can no longer process anyone. This is an area where we can work on with more funding and more staffing, more lawyers, more accommodations, whatever it takes.

I think if people are treated fairly, if they have representation that speaks their language, if they can have a shot at asylum for their families, I think that will help decrease the number of illegal crossings.

My question back - more people overstay their visas illegally than cross the border. Instead of a wall, shouldn't we be focusing on them? The wall is debated a million times more than these illegals. Why is that?

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Ann

Interesting article from CNN earlier this year. Note the difference between affirmative asylum and defensive asylum and also note the only 20% denial rate of the Chinese asylum seekers vs the denial rate of those in the caravans which have become so problematic at our southern border. Those crossing our southern border illegally and then claiming asylum is a huge loophole. Dems, you claim to want border security. Do you want this loophole addressed in Congress in a bipartisan fashion?


https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/01/world/asylum-process-refugee-migrant-immigration-trnd/index.html

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Becca Reese

Border Patrol can stop people coming through tunnel. Wall deter and essentially, funnel illegal immigrants to common areas of crossing where BP can more easily watch for them and apprehend them.

There's always a "but what about" whenever the wall is brought up. A wall system is part of comprehensive control of illegal immigration. Just because it isn't the be all or end all, or it can be gone over or under (and we have no data on the new wall designs if this is even possible or likely), doesn't mean it shouldn't be deployed as a means of deterrence.

Look, defending the Dems's stance on the wall only makes their acolytes look just as hypocritical, because we all know Dems were for the wall/fance/barrier, and STRONGLY in support of immigration reform and border security.


It's Trump, and we ALL know it.

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Becca Reese

Those crossing our southern border illegally and then claiming asylum is a huge loophole. Dems, you claim to want border security. Do you want this loophole addressed in Congress in a bipartisan fashion?

Ann, it's immoral to NOT close that loophole. Anchor babies have to go, too, and I don't just mean those born of illegal immigrants from South America.

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Ann

Chi, thank you for your answer! Let me see if I can sum up your position and please correct me if I've misstated. You don't want a wall and you think as many people as choose to and can cross the border illegally and claim asylum should be allowed to (and along with more processing manpower funded and put in place), they should continue to be released into the US until processed.

I most definitely think visa overstays should be addressed but I don't think it's a one or the other. Our immigration system and they way we "ignore" our current rules and laws is a travesty! I think we need a very dedicated multi-prong approach and ASAP - no more kicking the can down the road.

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Chi

It's not about defensive vs. affirmative asylum. Those percentages are worthless without knowing how many of each asylum request were received.

I did a little research and found that of the defensive asylum seekers already in the deportation process, 80% of Chinese applications were approved and 12% of Mexican applications were approved.

80% vs. 12%. Hmm, I wonder why the US approve so many more Chinese than Mexicans...

https://www.axios.com/china-political-asylum-immigration-one-child-policy-c45cee7f-8f52-43e6-b0d5-b69d82842ef0.html

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Ann

Chi, may I ask in what way you see your thoughts as representing "border security" (or maybe you don't)? To me, they sound like you want to encourage more asylum seekers by making it easier, quicker and more inviting for them. Are you feeling like our current load of asylum cases and the rate of increase year over year isn't enough - that we need more?

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Becca Reese

Ann, I think what leaves us citizens angry and at each other over illegal immigration is that we are confused. We're confused because our elected law makers are ignoring law, bending laws and seeking judges to override, change or enact them.

IF our legislators would respect the laws THEY enacted, to the LETTER, we'd be so much more clear and not squabbling and taking sides. The law has no sides and we'd be far better served if we truly were a nation of laws.

Right now, we are "laws for thee, but not for me". We are in an era of judge shopping, and it's baloney.


We're can't reconcile our differences as long as our elected legislative leadership is so bleeped up.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Ann You think it's time....

Would it be ok with you for them to walk into the building first?

I think a lot of the why not has to do with trump going back on previous agreements. All of those "I'll sign that.", here it is, "I've changed my mind!"s has an impact. There is little incentive to bother going through the process, when he will not hold up his end of bargains, and his promises are worthless.

Anything that gets done will likely have to be between the two houses, with sufficient support for overrides. It is going to make getting things done difficult.

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Chi

Ann, I do think as many people who want to claim asylum should be allowed. They should be kept locally while the application is being processed, which would require more resources to make it a much faster process. I think it takes months now.

For your second question, I don't want to encourage anyone to make the dangerous journey. If they decide to make that journey, I do want to encourage them to use the ports of entry instead of crossing illegally by making it easier to be processed. I feel like our current cases are enough for our current resources. This is where I think money should be spent - not the wall.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Border Patrol can stop people coming through tunnel.

How will they stop people from coming through tunnels they don't know exist? The current available tech devices cannot detect many of the tunnels.

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momj47(7A)

Ann, I think what leaves us citizens angry and at each other over illegal immigration is that we are confused. We're confused because our elected law makers are ignoring law, bending laws and seeking judges to override, change or enact them.

Well, it's certainly clear the right wing is confused. The right wing forum members keep posting lies.

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Ann

Chi, all I can provide in answer to your question are the guidelines of the asylum process. I have no first hand experience with processing asylum seekers from any country.

"First, an asylum applicant must establish that he or she fears persecution in their home country. Second, the applicant must prove that he or she would be persecuted on account of one of five protected grounds: race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or particular social group."

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Kathy

How Long Does the Asylum Process Take?

Overall, the asylum process can take years to conclude. In some cases, a person may file his or her application and receive a hearing or interview date years in the future.

  • As of March 2018, there were more than 318,000 affirmative asylum applications pending with USCIS. The government does not estimate the time it will take to schedule an initial interview for these asylum applicants, though historically the delay could reach four years for such asylum seekers.
  • The backlog in U.S. immigration courts reached an all-time high in March 2018 with more than 690,000 open deportation cases. On average, these cases had been pending for 718 days and remained unresolved.
  • Individuals with an immigration court case who were ultimately granted relief—such as asylum—by March 2018 waited more than 1,000 days on average for that outcome. New Jersey and California had the longest wait times, averaging 1,300 days until relief was granted in the immigration case.

Asylum seekers, and any family members waiting to join them, are left in limbo while their case is pending. The backlogs and delays can cause prolonged separation of refugee families, leave family members abroad in dangerous situations, and make it more difficult to retain pro bono counsel for the duration of the asylum seeker’s case.

Although asylum seekers may apply for work authorization after their case has been pending for 150 days, the uncertainty of their future impedes employment, education, and trauma recovery opportunities.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/asylum-united-states


I would like to,see more processors and more judges trained so as to speed up the waiting time for processing. There might be a way to set up a processing center in some of these dangerous countries. It is hard to make suggestions as a citizen not knowing all the laws but I am sure there must be a way to use money for immigration more efficiently than a great big wall. That is not to say the border may need reinforcements and improvements at certain junctions.

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Ann

Gyr, more of what I'm hoping to understand is how you, me, and we feel about border security. I don't have any feel for what Dems want in terms of "border security". It seems like they don't want any new physical barriers and they want to make the process for those who want entry into the U.S quicker and easier. I'm trying to find out if that's the Dem's "definition" of border security? If yes, it kind of sounds more like opening rather than securing the border, and I'm not saying that to be sarcastic but to try to reach an understanding of where our differences lie.

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Ann

Chi, OK, let me see if I've got it. You want border security money to be spent on ways to make processing of claims quicker, easier and more comfortable for those wanting to enter. Is that your opinion?

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Ann

Thank you Kathy. It sounds like you'd like quicker processing as well - more efficient immigration. Then you mentioned reinforcements and improvements at certain junctions. Do you mean any new physical barrier or simply repairs to existing fencing that may have areas of damage?

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Chi

I think it's more about a fundamental difference in believing there's a big problem with our current border security. Personally, illegal immigration is very low on my list of things I think are wrong with America. I'm much more worried about gun control, healthcare, things like that. Saying we can't afford single payer healthcare and then wanting to build a wall that will be incredibly expensive to build and maintain when I don't think that's the biggest problem is where the disconnect is.

There's disconnect when Republicans want this wall but won't do a single thing about the gun mass murders. It's tragic when someone is killed and the murderer is undocumented, but that pales in comparison to the number of innocent people killed by guns wielded by US citizens. I feel like gun control will net out far more lives saved than a wall. It's difficult for me to want to work with them on border security via a wall when they give us nothing on the issues that matter to us.

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Kathy

Border security has always meant repair and secure physical elements of the border. That is a totally different animal than the huge 25B physical wall Trump has proposed. Since he is now using all sorts of descriptions to describe what he wants, it is clear he realizes that isn’t going to happen. Democrats have always been in favor of securing our borders.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Trump claim he won when he accepts some semblance of the first deal Schumer and Pelosi offered him including DACA and their parents.

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Ann

Chi, I agree there is a big disconnect on priorities. I really appreciate you sticking your neck out to answer questions about border security. I've asked about it a lot because I'm so trying to understand what Dems want or don't want on the topic. I think your answers provided the most direct, straightforward opinions on the topic I've ever heard from anyone on the left on HT. I appreciate it!


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Chi

You're very welcome, Ann. Thanks for being respectful even when you disagree. I'm sure I contradicted myself a few times but I honestly don't really know the answer for border security other than how it fits into my personal priorities for the country.

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Ann

Chi, I'd talk to you about guns if I knew a thing about the topic but I've never waded into that discussion because I'm just not knowledgeable about it. While I'm conservative and someone who believes in the Constitution, I'm not on a side on the issue of guns. I hate it when bad guys or mentally disturbed people kill others and I like it when good guys (who happen to be at the right place, at the right time, and armed) prevent a tragedy from getting worse.

Health care is an issue I do wade into. I'm sure you are aware that the estimated price tag for a wall (where it's feasible to build one) is 25 billion (and offset that by the savings of our system not supporting the health, education, and welfare of many more millions of illegals) and the estimated price for Medicare for all is 30 trillion. The two topics are apples and oranges.

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Ann

"I wouldn’t be surprised to see Trump claim he won when he accepts some semblance of the first deal Schumer and Pelosi offered him including DACA and their parents."

Kathy, this doesn't need to be about winning or losing. If DACA gets a solution and our border gets secured, I think we all benefit, don't we? If DACA doesn't get solved by Congress, within a year, it's likely the issue will be heard by SCOTUS and, while we don't know how that will go, there are many legal minds that think DACA will need to end. Even Obama questioned whether it could hold up because it was never more than a temporary fix. I don't think many want that group deported, so that could be a sad end. Then, if we get a more secure border as a "trade off", doesn't America win on both counts? Maybe Trump/Schumer/Pelosi can all "claim" a win and all three will be right!

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

I'm not a Democrat, Ann. I am seriously considering becoming one in mid-January, or February. Should I wait to reply? :)

It sounds as if you expect to ascertain a group answer for the Democratic Party, when individual Democrats likely favor multiple points anywhere along a range of options. Several Democrats giving their opinion about border security might not be very close to what the party would collectively agree to put forth.

I hesitate to bother writing detailed, well thought out posts, due to people flagging most of my posts this weekend. It is a waste of time to expend the effort, especially on weekends and during holidays.

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Ziemia(6a)

I'm not a Democrat.

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Ann

Gyr, I am trying to ascertain some idea of what most Dems want. Even in the media interviews in recent days, the Dems are really being vague and are still talking about "more technology" and then saying the experts will need to determine the "more technology" and how it will work. I'm feeling like Dems do seem to be supporting more open borders - basically keeping the laws and loopholes as they are, helping asylum seekers (with quicker, easier, more comfortable processes), not punishing or deporting those who cross illegally, putting government funds to use to facilitate entry rather than preventing it, etc. Frankly, if that's what Dems want, I think progress could be made if they simply said it loud and clear. I certainly wouldn't call any of that "border security" but maybe "border opening". That's creating quite a bit of confusion right now (what do Dems really want and when the say they support border security, what do they mean). Who knows, maybe America will like the idea of "facilitating" entry into the US. Dems did very well in their House pick ups in 2018. But, to have a real discussion (like with Chi and Kathy) is a really big step. They have different views than I do, but that's OK. We didn't feel the need to attack one another. Not too many have contributed their opinions like Chi and Kathy were willing to do here, but there certainly seemed to be a fair amount of similarity in their views, so my ascertaining so far is from the opinions of those two - but that was great and I'm far more informed than I was a few hours ago. This was one of those rare occasions on HT, where even if only for a short time, a real discussion happened among people with opposing views and none of it got personal. I love these moments.

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Ann

Here we go again. I used the word Dem here and I used the words populism and globalism on a recent thread and we want to get stuck on the words (heck, we can get stuck for 100s of comments with no discussion at all)? Uggh. I'll take that as a good reason to call it a night and feel great about having a worthwhile chat with Chi and Kathy.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Ann, you want to put the pieces in the puzzle all nice and tidy, but it isn't going to work. Everyone has different ideas, with various emphasizes. You will never get your Democrats want x, y and z answer. You may get a gist of what the majority of Democrats in HT want, but you don't seem to hear what they have already said.

You keep saying you think they want more open borders, yet I have read multiple people here state in many threads running back at least a year, that they do not. Your stated opinion of what you think they think has not budged one iota, no matter how many times they say that it is incorrect. They are telling you the answers to your question; you are choosing to not hear the answers, or take them into account.

Have you considered the "vagueness" of the party has to do with their not even having had an opportunity to gather and discuss what they want to propose? There are many things they need to attend to once they get in the house; they have quite a few items ready to hit the ground running. But they won't have everything ready to go yesterday.

The Republicans have things running several years, and counting, past the date they promised an arrival. And some are clearly not even being worked on, even though they controlled house, senate & white house. Odd that you seem to expect the Democrats to immediately juggle 3 balls, a chain saw and a bowling pin, but don't expect the Republicans to manage tossing one tennis ball into the air and catch it in a butterfly net, two years in.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Ann, did you read the interview that John Kelly gave to the LA Times? He also talked about more technology for the border and more people (you know, to process the asylum claims):


Mr. Kelly, whose last day in his role is Monday, said he had sought advice from Customs and Border Protection officials early in 2017, when he was the homeland security secretary. Mr. Kelly said he was told that “we need a physical barrier in certain places, we need technology across the board, and we need more people.”

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momj47(7A)

Gyr, I am trying to ascertain some idea of what most Dems want

If you haven't figured that out by now, don't waste your time trying. The right will never understand.

Democrats/liberals aren't like the 'Pubs.

Democrats/liberals don't have to march in lockstep like the 'Pubs are required to do.

There are as many things Democrats want as there are Democrats.

If there are underlying ideals it would be: "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity,............"

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sunflower_petal(5a)

And now Lindsey Graham says the 'wall' is just a metaphor for border security. There would only be a few places with a physical barrier (gee, isn't that what we have now?).

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foodonastump

$18,357,207

Another record broken for least contributions. Whatever our border security will look like, it looks less likely that it’ll be funded by a GFM campaign.

Thursday morning to Friday morning went up about 8MM. Friday to Saturday a little over 2MM. Now we do need to get more precise: Saturday to Sunday morning 1.5MM. Sunday to Monday, 0.8MM. Monday to Tuesday, 0.4MM. Tuesday to Wednesday $300K. Wed to Thur $238K. Thurs to Fri, $331K. Friday to Saturday, $821K. Sat to Sun $188K. Sun to Mon $143K.

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Ziemia(6a)

2006 legislation provided money for a physical barrier

2007 -Texas (republicans) had it amended to reduce the length of the physical barrier

2013 - legislation approved by the Senate (bipartisan) had funding for a physical barrier

2017 - some budget approval (bipartisan) for 2018 gave funding for a physical barrier - hardly any of it has been spent ($1B+)

How does anyone come to the conclusion that the Dems are against a physical barrier? (The issue seems to be only the amount.)

=====================

If anyone has ***specifics*** with respect to legislation or budget approvals -- please share.

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Ann


Gry, many people have said they don't support open borders, but stop there. Chi was willing to honestly describe what he or she does support. It represented kinder, quicker and easier asylum process for those seeking asylum. While I don't share that opinion, I'm not criticizing it. Honestly, I think it possible putting that out there (if Dem candidates agree and they very well might) could be received positively by voters. I'm just not sure. To me, the approach seems to be the approach Merkel took and I think it's backfired in Germany.

Dems will have no choice but to immediately take a firm approach due to the shut down. That will force this issue to become their first concern, whether they've have time to get a consensus or not. While polling shows more citizens consider it a Republican shut down (although quite a high percentage disagree), as was discussed on the Sunday shows yesterday, that narrative could quickly change if the Republicans become the party viewed as the one willing to compromise.

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Ziemia(6a)

Kelly says the 45 admin dropped the idea of a concrete wall AND a wall along the entire southern border early in 2017

Graham says The Wall is a metaphor for border security

The Dems in Congress have been in favor in beefing up border security.

Last year there was bipartisan agreement on funding money for border security. (Money which has mostly been unspent) it was 1.6B for the physical barrier

======================

Sounds like we have a whole lot of common ground AKA bipartisan support on the physical barrier and on there being other components that make up border security. So, why does Trump and many of his supporters still rant on the dangers of the Dem (in congress) position?

(edited to add the info about the $1.6B for physical barrier - of which less than 10% has been spent)

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Ziemia(6a)

PS: "many people" does not equal how voting in Congress ends up.

Sure, some people say 'no wall'. I have no idea what that means and that is OK. I suspect that it is a metaphor for 'no massive and lengthy wall at the southern border'.

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Ann

Because I think it quite pertinent to the state of today's southern border, let's take a little trip down memory lane to the Secure Fence Act of 2006 and how that easily passed bipartisan bill was then implemented (or not). Note at the bottom of the article, the rating of the Obama statement was changed from barely true to mostly false. That legislation passed 283-138 in the House and 80-19 in the Senate.


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/16/barack-obama/obama-says-border-fence-now-basically-complete/


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Ziemia(6a)

From that link - the rating appears to ignore the amendment filed and approved in 2007 in response to demands from Texans --- and the amendment was from a Republican.


The act specified "at least two layers of reinforced fencing." But the law was quietly altered in a significant way the following year. Responding to urging from the Department of Homeland Security -- which argued that different border terrains required different types of fencing, that a one-size-fits-all approach across the entire border didn't make sense -- Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas, proposed an amendment to give DHS the discretion to decide what type of fence was appropriate in different areas. The law was amended to read, "nothing in this paragraph shall require the Secretary of Homeland Security to install fencing, physical barriers, roads, lighting, cameras, and sensors in a particular location along an international border of the United States, if the Secretary determines that the use or placement of such resources is not the most appropriate means to achieve and maintain operational control over the international border at such location."


The bottom line of the 'rated false' seems to be about "did Obama mock the Republicans"? and I agree, Obama mocked the Republicans. It was wrong of Obama.

More on Kay Bailey Hutchison: against DACA, anti-abortion rights, against funding for renewable energy, voted against Dodd-Frank,

She seems to be a solid Republican.

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catticusmockingbird



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Ann

I wonder if Hutchison thought the discretion/flexibility was a good and useful tool so DHS wouldn't be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole where the fence wasn't feasible? It sounds like that was her thinking (which is reasonable). I doubt she recognized she'd pretty much kill the bill by trying to accommodate flexibility. In any case, the law didn't materialize properly and it had considerable bipartisan support.

Now, we're 13 years later from the passage of that law and I'd sure like to see that barrier happen with bipartisan support once again and an updated plan as to an "effective" barrier that a grandmother can't jump over. Then, actually do it this time and don't let it just fizzle due to a possibly well intentioned, but ultimately harmful amendment and a incoming president who was happy to take advantage of the opportunity to pretty much ignore the law.

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Ziemia(6a)

How long of a barrier do the GOP want now? And of what type - the concrete wall? steel slats?

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Ann

Catticus, what's the point of your post with the tweets. Is it if Trump does not get a concrete wall, the Dems won and Trump lost - Perfect - take the win and let's build the needed barrier.

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Ziemia(6a)

Kay Bailey Hutchison initiated that legislation because in 2006 many Texans were angered by what building that wall meant in reality. It was OK until it was more than a concept.

She is now our ambassador to NATO, so she is approved by Trump.

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Ziemia(6a)

Kelly says it's not a concrete wall

Graham says it's a metaphor

Trump has started describing it as 'steel slats'

so, what does Trump mean exactly? How long of a barrier do the GOP want now? And of what type - the concrete wall? steel slats?

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

700 now, main complaint, takes too long to load.

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catticusmockingbird

Ann, the point is he's a liar. Why am I not surprised you don't see that?

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mayflowers

If trump had bothered to research this before making it one of the most important parts of his campaign, we wouldn't be debating three years later what type of structure the border needs. How can you ask for a specific dollar amount when you don't even know what it is you want to build?

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Ziemia(6a)

How long of a barrier do the GOP want now? And of what type - the concrete wall? steel slats?

(I don't trust Mulvaney and that article is from early last year --- about the time Kelly says the position in the 45 administration shifted and I don't see it saying anything different what I've been typing here.)

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Ann

Vgkg, what does your comment mean, "takes too long to load"?

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catticusmockingbird

^^^

the page



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Ann

"I don't trust Mulvaney" - OK? I don't trust Schumer - again - OK?

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GOD

I'm loving how the trumpsters are back pedalling "I never thought it was a wall"


When't Mexico going to donate?

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Ann

The thread takes too long to load for you? Oh, it comes right up for me, but of course anyone is free to start a new thread on any topic they'd like to discuss or continue to discuss.

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catticusmockingbird

Donate? They were going to pay for the whole damn thing.

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Ziemia(6a)

[OK, let's ignore Mulvaney (don't care much for Schumer myself)]

********

How long of a barrier do the GOP want now? And of what type - the concrete wall? steel slats?

That article is from early last year --- about the time Kelly says the position in the 45 administration shifted and I don't see it saying anything different what I've been typing here.

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barncatz

How fondly I recall the rally chants and The Donald's promise:

BUILD THAT BORDER SECURITY!!

WHO'S GOING TO PAY FOR THE SLATTED STEEL FENCE? MEXICO, I GUARANTEE IT!

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elvis

vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

700 now, main complaint, takes too long to load

You must live in boonier boonies than me. No prob here.

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catticusmockingbird

Ziemia, I'm lovin' your persistence!

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Ziemia(6a)

Well, Liz Warren is my Senator and I voted for her both times.

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catticusmockingbird

What? I was referring to the wall.

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Ann

Lyn, that's right. We're backpedaling as fast as possible. Call it whatever you want but give America the security barrier I think we need. If Schumer can get out of his corner by calling it a fence, FINE!

Conversely, if Dems are confident we don't need a barrier beyond what is there now and we don't have an immigration situation that warrants a physical barrier, encourage Schumer to hold firm and not compromise.

Finally, if what Dems really want are more open borders, more people illegally walking across the border and applying for asylum using the existing legal loopholes (which I'll assume you want to remain as they are - please correct me if you want a bipartisan Congress to do away with that "release" loophole), and an easier and more comfortable asylum process for those seeking it - just say so.

Let's just get to the bottom of this issue in an honest and forthcoming manner. I have no idea what voters will support in 2020, so how about we all put our cards on the table and find out. Maybe we'll get a good feel for the Dem's position in the very near future as the Dem presidential candidates launch their campaigns and put forth their platforms. I read an article today saying Warren is off and running, so it's underway.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Ann, you would be served better to understand that Democrats and Republicans are different in their approach style. I laugh, because you demand (by asking multiple times) to know what Democrats want. You use control phrases in your sentences, such as "Dems will have no choice....", "That will force this issue to become their first concern...", and warning about the outcome of "...that narrative". As you feel power slip away from the Republicans, it is a telling desperate grasp to retain control over the situation.

Well, the Democrats don't have to tell you their plans immediately, can relax in a hammock and let the shutdown go on for months, be willing to ignore how they are viewed by the citizens, and thumb their nose at the will of the citizens half as well as the Republicans have for the past two years. I said half, because no one can do it as skillfully as the Republicans have done during the past two years.

Honestly, I don't want the Democrats to compromise with the Republicans. And I am not alone in feeling that way. If they do, my support will wane. So you might want to consider making some adjustments to that narrative.

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Ziemia(6a)

catticus --- Warren is famous for 'persistence'. Hence my attempt to play on your words.

Nevertheless, she persisted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevertheless,_she_persisted

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Ziemia(6a)

gyr -- I think you are correct in this assessment "Honestly, I don't want the Democrats to compromise with the Republicans. And I am not alone in feeling that way. If they do, my support will wane."

(I admit I would like compromise so we can get on to bigger issues --- but I agree that a whole of the 'bigger issues' are subsumed here) (maybe saying that I'm ambivalent is more accurate on compromise).

PS: kudos for your comments about Dem policy -- well stated.

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catticusmockingbird

Ziemia, sorry. It went right over my head. ;)

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Ziemia(6a)

Really, elvis? this are the most appropriate words you can come up with? Highly offensive

"you're being gang-banged"

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I'm not a registered Democrat, but I agree with others that the Democrats should not compromise.

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chase_gw

If Trump is such a good business person, such a good negotiator, such a good builder, then why in two years has he not developed a comprehensive business plan that lays out exactly what he wants, where he wants it and what additional border security elements he wants. A proper businesse case with a cost benefit analysis. A proper business case, one he could take to the people?

Ann, keeps insisting that the Dems have no plan, I could say the same for Trump, he is all over the place with no definitive vision.

He just keeps demanding billions to build "something" wonderful! . That is not how business works. Nobody gets billions without a plan. Why didn't he use some of the billion he hasn't yet spent to do such a plan, to put together a convincing case? Likely because he is used to getting what he wants without challenge and also because he likely hasn't a clue what is realistically possible and effective.

The midterms proved that the illegal immigration issue is not as hot as Trump and FOX tried to make it. Americans didn't want a wall in 2018 and they are unlikely to want one in 2020 unless Trump can make a better business case absent insults and bullying.

Maybe he should hire Accenture..........

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mayflowers

A year ago when Republicans had the power they used DACA as a bargaining chip to get their wall. That showed us just how inhumane you are. DACA is not just an acronym. These are living, breathing young adults who were brought here through no fault of their own and who have lived as good Americans their entire lives. Now because the wall is slipping away you want us to negotiate with you on fair terms so that you don't come up empty-handed. Now you want to be reasonable. Do a clean bill on DACA and we'll resume talks with trump.

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Ann

Gyr, I'm good with my narrative and have no desire to make adjustments. Are you good with yours?

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Ann

Well, we'll soon see the Dems next move as their next proposal/counter offer will be presented in a couple hours.

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chase_gw

Counter offer to what ?

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Ann

The news is the Dem plan is to kick the Homeland Security piece out until Feb. and approve the rest.

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mayflowers

Probably the $2 billion trump is now asking for.

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Ann

Chase, counter offer to what Pence and Mulvaney presented to Schumer on the 22nd (I believe I have that date right). Just before everyone took off for Christmas. I believe it dropped the wall request to 2.5 billion, but I haven't seen that the offer has been available for public viewing. But, it's been very widely covered and I'm sure you could find all sort of discussions of it if you google.

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catticusmockingbird



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jillinnj

Will Trump sign that? Isn't that what was essentially put forth before that he refused to sign?

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Yep, Ann. I know you will not alter your narrative. You are still going with the tired, unsupported "Dems want open borders" etc., and trumps multitude of lies no matter what. I'm good with my flexing narrative as views are altered by evidence it needs to be adjusted. I'm confident the earth orbits the sun, rather than the ol' sun doing loops around the earth, and turning into the moon at night.

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mayflowers

I think that's good. It removes federal employees as political pawns.

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Ann

Yep, that's what I'm hearing. It took nine days to choose a future kick the can down the road date and to not counter the offer made by Pence and Mulvaney. Okey, dokey - that's compromise:(

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jillinnj

Catticus, what's the point of your post with the tweets. Is it if Trump does not get a concrete wall, the Dems won and Trump lost - Perfect - take the win and let's build the needed barrier.

The point is he lies to you constantly and you cannot see it.

Lyn, that's right. We're backpedaling as fast as possible. Call it whatever you want but give America the security barrier I think we need.

How can you not see you've been conned. The "wall" was dropped a long time ago. But he keeps telling you the fairy tale you want to hear and you keep buying it and not realizing he's lying to your face.

The Democrats have always been in favor of stronger border security. The bill that was put forth before that he was in favor of before he wasn't included stronger border security. Fences are appropriate in some areas and not in others. Just like it's been for, well forever. Yet now, after he's lied to you for 3 years about building a wall, you are all of a sudden OK with not building a wall. Yet you blame the dems who helped to put forth a bill that did just that. Just too funny.

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Ziemia(6a)

LOL - we still don't know what the GOP thinks is a proper physical barrier at the southern border. No on is talking about it.

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jillinnj

you don't seem to hear what they have already said.

You keep saying you think they want more open borders, yet I have read multiple people here state in many threads running back at least a year, that they do not. Your stated opinion of what you think they think has not budged one iota, no matter how many times they say that it is incorrect. They are telling you the answers to your question; you are choosing to not hear the answers, or take them into account.

Thank you for saying this, gry. Perhaps Ann will read what you wrote and not poof it. Every time I tell her people are tired of answering her questions so she can ignore the answer, ask it again and continue to claim the dems want open borders, she poofs my post.

So, thank you. And start the countdown on this one. 3...2...1...

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Ann

"LOL - we still don't know what the GOP thinks is a proper physical barrier at the southern border. No one is talking about it."

Do you mean aside from the picture of the steel slats with pointed tops that Trump posted a picture of?

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chase_gw

Ann, I was aware of the supposed offer by Mulvaney and Pence but as far as I know the Dems were insisting, given his record on breaking his word or changing his mind, Trump confirm he was amenable to that deal and he hasn't.......at least not that I've heard .....but to say the least it's hard keeping up with what Trump will actually agree to.

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chase_gw

Kelly said that Trump moved away from the " wall " months ago. Trump says that's not true, he has never moved away from a concrete wall.

This is where Trump's penchant for lying catches up with him and bites him in the behind. No one with half a brain is going to believe Trump over Kelly.

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catticusmockingbird

No one with half a brain is going to believe Trump over Kelly.


That's not what we see exhibited here.

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Kathy

Trump will say whatever crosses his mind at the moment when he thinks it will make a deal. Truthfulness or trust he will keep his word can never be assured. He literally lives in the moment.

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Ziemia(6a)

So, Trump was wrong today when he insisted it's NOT steel slats and that it is a CONCRETE wall? Which he tweeted about it 4 hours ago

So, though that's still an unknown, do we at least know how many miles it needs to be?

Trump: "An all concrete Wall was NEVER ABANDONED.." --- earlier today

----------------------------

What is Trump and Ryan and the GOP demanding be funded? Would you support your MoC voting to approve this unspecified so-called wall?

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Kathy

Ziemia

Wait a minute, that will change too.

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mayflowers

The legend of trump's deal-making and grit is crumbling right along with that concrete wall.

He needs to take the deal, which will allow him some time to accept the new reality of divided government and learn how to be an effective leader. Something as controversial as the wall is not a good place to start. He's been skating for two years and now comes the hard stuff. It will be interesting to see how he balances everything--while he's campaigning! Oy vey!

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

No one with half a brain is going to believe Trump over Kelly.

That's not what we see exhibited here.

------------------

Uh....Should I conclude.... ;)

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jillinnj

No one with half a brain is going to believe Trump over Kelly.

That's not what we see exhibited here.

Actually, it is exactly what we see here.

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dandyfopp

Oh my sides!


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catticusmockingbird

margievank

Then the wall isn’t going to make Americans any safer?

Then why did Obama put a wall "around" his house?


Just another Trump lie.




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Ziemia(6a)

Trump’s assertion [about the wall around Obama's current home] came as a surprise to two of the Obamas' neighbors Monday, who told The Washington Post that there is no such wall. The 8,200-square-foot structure, despite several security features, is completely visible from the street.

A neighbor, a longtime resident of the area who spoke on the condition of anonymity to preserve their privacy, said Trump “has a very active imagination.”

“There’s a fence that goes along the front of the house, but it’s the same as the other neighbors have,” the neighbor said. “It’s tastefully done.”

As The Post’sFact Checker notes, the Obamas added security fencing to a retaining wall in front of the home (it is not a compound) for the needs of the Secret Service. A guard boothwas built, and fencing was added to the back.

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GOD

the fools believe every thing trump tweets.

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Kathy

How big is the wall around Mar-a Lago?

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momj47(7A)

Soon it won't matter how high the wall is.

It's that pesky climate change and rising sea level



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Becca Reese

The Obamas don't need no stinkin' 10-foot tall wall! They've situated themselves in D.C.'s most expensive, most exclusive and most white neighborhood.


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mayflowers

Maybe they don't see the color of their neighbors' skin.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I don't know about DC, but the priciest Beverly Hills, Hollywood Hills neighborhoods --- NOS [north of Sunset Blvd] --- are awash with walls, humongous privacy hedges, tall fences. Same for other $$$$ canyons, Malibu, etc. Exclusive areas, astronomical real estate are no guarantee of fence-less, wall-less homes.

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catticusmockingbird



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Ann

If he also works out a successful trade deal with China, it will be incredible. I think he'll pull it off. Let's watch and see. I bet he's absolutely right that USMCA savings to the US could very well pay for the wall.

Dems are on the wrong side of this barrier issue, in my strong opinion. The reason is because it isn't even about the border or it isn't logical - it's just a "stop Trump" from anything agenda, even if it makes absolutely no sense for America. I don't know how Trump will respond to the Dems bill on Thursday, but I hope he gives it the worth it deserves (none). Again, we'll see.

By the way, we have a lot of ugly, outdated fences, some in states of disrepair along our southern border. If Dems truly see no value in a barrier to reduce illegal entries, you certainly want them all removed pronto - right? Propose it, please.

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catticusmockingbird

You're just repeating Trump lies.

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cattyles

Your grandchildren will thank those of us that are fighting to stop Trump.

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chase_gw

Ann, have you any idea at all how Mexico paying for the wall through the revised NAFTA deal would work ? Can you explain how?

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Ann

Oh Chase, don't ask silly questions. I'm not suggesting that good solutions to long, lopsided trade inequities will pay for anything directly from one department to a completely different one. Look outside the little silly circle you're playing games in. There's a big picture here and Trump goes for it and gets it right time and time again. He doesn't wimp out and take the easy, popular route that gets us nowhere (but backwards).

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Joaniepoanie

Ann...experts at the border say we don't need a wall.....barriers in some places, but mostly technology and more personnel. An expensive wall all the way across?.....13th century technology. How about a moat too?


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roxsol

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/12/is-mexico-paying-for-the-wall-through-usmca/

An interesting read :)

ETA Nothing silly about Chase’s question IMO

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Ziemia(6a)

Well, I don't know what the GOP plan is for the barrier... most GOP in the know say it won't be of concrete. But Trump says it will be.

And, how long do they say it should be?

Without this information, how can the Dem in Congress be on the wrong side?

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chase_gw

Ann, I'm not being silly. It's a valid question but clearly you have no answer. That's OK , either does Trump. It's meaningless rhetoric with no substance that the base needs to hold on to.

Neither Trump nor you can define the big picture because there isn't one. You can't articulate it yet you constantly demand that liberals define their view of immigration etc.

I'd be very interested in what in the revised NAFTA deal will substantially increase US trade into Mexico and how that will translate into multiple biIlions of dollars into the US Treasury. I'm all ears


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Ann

A whole bunch of stupid word games are going on. Good barriers and somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 miles of them where they are feasible is what our border security plan should include IMO. The whole discussion is a game without this barrier component and Dems are making fools of themselves with their completely illogical opposition. Listen to them on media - they sound like idiots with nothing reasonable to back up their position. The best they can come up with and what they usually conclude with is "barriers aren't nice" - OMG, how childish and ridiculous they sound. Joanie, I think you are entirely wrong. I think a huge majority of border workers and experts would strongly argue and agree that barriers are highly effective, very important, and very much needed. Trump is precisely right, without barriers, we won't have anywhere near effective border security. If Trump wants to call it a wall and Schumer can save face by calling it a fence, who cares?

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Ann

By the way Chase, about the differences you and I often encounter in discussion on HT. I feel that you frequently simply throw out random stuff as a statement of fact, as so often it's completely incorrect and unverified (reminds me of the infamous dossier). I got to thinking about this issue and am trying to think if you ever provide links to respected (or any) sources for your statements? I'll have to pay closer attention.

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chase_gw

Illogical opposition to a position most Americans don't agree with.......that's an interesting perspective






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chase_gw

Ann, that's an interesting deflection....but back to my question

I'd be very interested in what in the revised NAFTA deal will substantially increase US trade into Mexico and how that will translate into multiple biIlions of dollars into the US Treasury. I'm all ears


BTW one could say your assertion that the revised NAFTA deal will pay for the wall is random . By your defintion you also...

" throw out random stuff as a statement of fact, as so often it's completely incorrect and unverified "

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Ziemia(6a)

So, 700 miles? But that's about much is there - so sections need to be rebuilt to better standards and a few dozen miles of new sections?

That is what's been agreed to in the past. So, where's the big divide?

Oh, maybe the Dems are done with the games DJT has been coming up with?

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catticusmockingbird

Ann, if it weren't for Chase you'd have no one to talk to here. You should be a little nicer to her. Might be a good NY's resolution.

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queenmargo

Ann, if it weren't for Chase you'd have no one to talk to here. You should be a little nicer to her. Might be a good NY's resolution.

Gee, I see quite a few other people on this thread that you call "no ones" lol lol lol..

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catticusmockingbird

Margievank, I've noticed the past couple weeks that Ann interacts predominantly with Chase. You tell me why that is.

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Ziemia(6a)

catticusmockingbird, I've noticed that as well.

++++++++++

Happy New Year Eve y'all

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queenmargo

Sorry, I can not tell you what I do not know.

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Ann

No Ziemia, nearly 700 miles of new barrier (in mostly Texas), where there never has been fencing. Then, additionally, repair and, in many cases, replace ineffective existing fencing to bring it to standards of effectiveness.

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Ann

Catticus, I'd have no one else to talk to? Seriously?

Communicating with one another has been a huge source of frustration, likely for both of us. I'll be straight, honest and play fair with anyone who is willing to do the same. If she wants to stay away from my comments or threads to avoid conflict, I'll do the same for her, but she's made it clear time and time again that isn't her choice. That's up to her but that leaves me in the position of dealing with her in conversation and I'll most certainly point out the BS and unverified facts she tosses out in threads I start and in our joint conversations.

If you choose to pay attention to my conversations with others, you'll see that if people play fair in conversations, I will do my utmost to provide the same courtesy in return. But, if I'm met with snark, I won't politely take it. Also, if random info is presented as factual info and it's incorrect, I'll note it. I think those types of random and untrue comments diminish any conversation. If it's opinion, fine but it it's presented as fact (and with authority/repetition for impact, if you take note of her style), it should either be correct and verified or it should be challenged or corrected.

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Ann

"You tell me why that is."

I could tell you why. Her comments are often right there as soon as I post something, whether it be a thread or a comment.

ETA: Additionally, her persistence with questions (and not to the group), but to individual posters - in a badgering fashion is nothing short of annoying. If someone doesn't answer a question you ask them directly, they don't want to for whatever reason they choose. The subsequent taunting (e.g., "Crickets...." game) is ridiculous. Maybe you saw a perfect example the other day. She repeatedly asked me how many times Senate Dems have blocked bills. IMO, the answer to that would require lots of thorough investigation of each and every bill that has been before the Senate. Why on earth would I want to spend my day investigating that question? As I recall, the question was entirely hers and had little or nothing to do with my comments. I purposely ignored it as I don't "accept assignments" based on her demands. The badgering began. The end result was she had no clue about what she was saying and was just guessing, and with authority.

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catticusmockingbird

That doesn't pass muster. Your comment is what is commonly referred to as blowing smoke.

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chase_gw

BTW Ann, one could say your assertion that the revised NAFTA deal will pay for the wall is random . By your defintion you also...

" throw out random stuff as a statement of fact, as so often it's completely incorrect and unverified "

......just saying

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elvis

...I've noticed the past couple weeks that Ann interacts predominantly with Chase. You tell me why that is.

I haven't noticed that, but if it's true it would probably be because Ann likes smart people with pretty good manners.

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chase_gw

Don't make me like you Elvis !!!!! But I do have to admit I missed you when you were gone.......a bit

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Ann

"I'm all ears". Great and they're all yours!

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chase_gw

As I thought no facts , no answer just "random" stuff .....that's OK but you would have looked better without that shot...but you got to go with what you got.


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chase_gw

Good night all and a sincere wish for a Happy and Healthy New Year for everyone.

I've made two resolutions, one I think I can keep ....the other will be a bit tougher and I suspect I will blow through it in short order. I'm a sucker for a taunt.

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Stan Areted

Ann, I don't recall "talking" with you a lot, but I most definitely will talk to you, so contrary to declarations, people other than Chase will talk with you. I talk with anyone that is polite and reasonable.


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