Thank you for the thanks :)

Look up the model # of fridge & download the installation manual. Share it with contractor, installer, & or cabinet designer. It should have the diagrams in it. Especially if it's french door hinges with lots of storage on doors inside. A 3" minimum. But sometimes 3" is still not enough. I have seen up to 5.5" needed before. The good news is since the adjacent wall is not too deep, will not have to worry about handle hitting wall, but you do need to watch out for door hitting wall. Like the 2nd photo I posted. Imo, when in doubt, a wider filler to be safe. Thankfully, you're figuring this out beforehand. There have been many posts of unfortunate layouts which caused major problems because they didn't accommodate the fridge doors opening fully. Especially with a lot of these new fridges available. They need a lot more room to fullybopen with all the cool storage compartments on the doors.

I highly suggest to put the fridge in with filler & test opening it before hanging up everything & definitely before countertop is installed. That way everyone knows it opens fully & can proceed without having to redo.

Wishing you a successful install soon.

flygirl519, thank you for that creative idea! Love the fireplace look but I don't think that would be practical in our small space, plus we're in Honolulu so not so much of a bonus here.

I'm still tearing my hair out ... how to meet our cabinet needs without resorting to uppers in the kitchen. Working with our designer but she's not too helpful, or maybe (probably) I'm too finicky. I'll definitely keep you posted. Thanks for your encouragement!

I think I would probably get rid of seating at the island with the table so close by.

I prefer sitting at a table too. Most people stand around my island! Then you could lengthen the island and make it less wide to gain room around the DR table (you also gain more storage). Maybe do very shallow cabs (12") where the two chairs back up to the buffet and then 16 to 18 inch deep cabs on either side.

Maybe you should consider making an 18 inch wide pantry between the fridge and bathroom wall. Then you don't have to leave so much space to the left of the fridge.

You'd still have 18 inches between the stove and fridge.

Thank you, ker9. artistsharonva provided very useful advice on the fridge space in this discussion.

Thank you Karenseb! We did have pullout pantry next to the fridge in a previous version of our kitchen plan but decided to take it out in the interest of more counter space. The kitchen plan is set at this point -- we spent waaay too much time on it so we're not going back there. BUT we are having the same thoughts as you about the island seating. And your idea about reducing the width of the cabinets on wall is useful. It's the DESIGN of those cabinets that boggles me. I don't like the look of a countertop with uppers and lowers squished between two much larger cabinets. My inspiration photos (at the top of this thread) don't show the right side of this cabinet run and I hate the way it looks in the elevation drawings from my designer. It looks too choppy and cramped in our small space. I'm ready to throw in the towel and just put one big pantry in that corner in front of the window next to the sliding doors and leave it at that. I guess we could buy a "hutch" and put it between the DR and LR so my husband can have his glass shelves. I was hoping for a cleaner, more integrated cabinet look but am close to giving up on that.

I'm sure you'll think I'm nuts for this suggestion. But you look to have 10 feet width in the dining area. Have you considered just rotating your table length wise nearer the patio doors. You would then have a large empty wall for storage of whatever type you choose, and lots of room for your bar stools

flygirl519, thank you for this suggestion. It prompted me to dive into the space guidelines that artistsharonva posted to research how much space we would need by putting our table horizontally near the patio. Unfortunately, that layout would still not leave enough walking around space, even though 10+ feet sounds like a lot.

It was a very useful exercise though. I ended up calculating the exact amounts that we need to reduce both the width of the island and the depth of the DR cabinets if we want to have enough walking-around-the-table space, while leaving the table where it is. I found that even if we eliminated the cabinets, we would still need to reduce the width of the island and lose the two seats there, which is not the end of the world. I promptly sent these findings to our designer. So, not a waste of time! Thank you again and Merry Christmas!

I like Karenseb's latest layout. I have a similar setup in my 10x13 kitchen with a prep sink on one end of the island (in front of the refrigerator), then MW/drawers, then trash pullout at the other end of the island (also close to main sink). It works very well with multiple people in the kitchen.

Thanks, sarahachevalier. I love the idea of moving the trash pullout to the island! That would give us another full stack of drawers near the range and sink while still having the trash pullout handy. Can you share the dimensions of your island?

My island is 69" (length) x 42'' (depth).

• 18" cabinet -- prep sink and cutting boards
• 24'' cabinet -- MW drawer with two drawers underneath
• 18" cabinet -- drawer on top with prep instruments & knives + trash/recycling pull out underneath (trash is in a separate compartment so odors do not travel to the top drawer)
• 2 x 3" moldings/support on each side for the seating on the other side of the island
• 2 x 1.5" countertop overhang on each side

The electrical outlet is on the 42" side closest to the trash pullout. It is not really visible but it is perfect on this side because I can really spread out when I need to prep with small appliances (e.g. food processor).

I find that this setup with the prep sink pushed to one side gives me plenty of space to work on the island. 90% of the time I prep on the 69" side. A helper can easily prep on the 42" side (one-step turnaround to access water from the main sink) or between the sink and range.

I really like the trash pullout in this location -- as you say, it freed a cabinet between the sink and range. All my cutlery, plates and glasses are between the sink and range. This works out really well because: (1) easily accessible from range when serving, (2) just a few steps away from the dishwasher and cleanup sink for easy unloading, (3) out of the prep zone so someone can set the table without interfering with my prep or cooking.

Hope this helps!

I am hoping you can now help me with your opinion on something in my home. Many years ago I knocked out a wall between the kitchen and a den area. Because these two rooms are on different levels there is a step down into the room of about 8 inches. I have never regretted removing the wall but it did leave me with only one solid wall. Of the rooms 4 "walls", one is a set of patio doors, leading to the back yard, which we use constantly and is shown in the photo behind the two lamps on the sofa table, one is the opening to the kitchen ( where you see the edge of the kitchen island shown in previous photos) and one is a fireplace wall. Since my husband definitely does not want the tv above the fireplace, it led me to always place the couch in front of the open area leading to the kitchen. I have attached a photo of this. This means I always see the back of the couch, which I do not like. So my question is this. Would you add back in a half or kneewall behind the couch, while leaving the other half of the opening open for moving between rooms? It is not an option to raise the floor and there is no room behind the couch for a sofa table as it would block the cabinets sitting right at the back of the sofa to the left ( not seen in photo)

Thanks for any thoughts you might have

I don’t see the suggested plan for the trash pullout in the island, but just make sure it doesn’t conflict with the DW. Having the both open at the same time can either hit each other or if not that, trap you in during cleanup!

Good point, ishop19. I sure hope we can put it there somewhere though... I could really use that extra stack of drawers near the sink.

felizlady, which of your ideabooks is the photo in? I clicked on your page and it looks like I can see your ideabooks.

My dining room is exactly 10' in width, and it would not be comfortable if it were made smaller by the depth of a cabinet. You could add some lower cabinets with glass doors facing the living room in the island if you eliminated the two stools and enlarged the island in the direction of the living room.

That's an interesting idea, mononhemeter. We're meeting with our contractor this week and I will raise the various space saving ideas presented here. I'm so grateful to all helpful Houzzer elves! Thanks everyone, and happy new year!

Hi Ruth. Took your advice and had a family member fill in my photo above with different half wall ideas and found one I liked that kept the space open. Built it last week and I like how it hides the couch. heres a quick pic. One more project put to rest. Hope you worked out your dining room dilemma.

flygirl519, that was quick! I love how your half wall turned out!! Congratulations on keeping the openness of the space while taking care of your sofa view issue. It looks lovely and very professional!

Thanks for asking about my dining room dilemma. We ended up drastically cutting the size of our island and putting just one pantry on the dining room wall in the corner near the patio. When all was said and done, anything more than this made the space feel cramped. I'm so grateful to you Houzzers for helping us get to a solution. I will post the current plan as soon as I get a good copy of it from our designer.

lygirl and felizlady, Here is the design we ended up with for our dining room. We put one tall cabinet in the right corner near the window and that is all. With our dining room table and chairs taking up so much space we decided not to fix any other cabinets along that wall (the other structure you see there is a 12" deep freestanding bookcase, just to see how it would work but the bookcase is not fixed). Since these drawings were made we reduced the pantry depth from 18" to 16" and widened it to 32". It will be in 3 sections, the one on top being the same height as the cabinet on top of the refrigerator. This way we hope to provide a sort of symmetry with the kitchen. Question to anyone still reading this: should we paint the pantry in a contrasting color, i.e something other than white? We want to paint the island in a contrasting color just to give some relief from all the white. Note, our floor (vinyl planks) will not look goldeny like this - it will be more of a chalky oak, so very light. Any suggestions for an island and/or pantry color welcome! Our table and chairs are cherry - posting a photo here.

Sorry that plan doesn't show up so well. Not sure what I can do about it.

to help see plans better

if full overlay cabinets need fillers.

i prefer a few even inches on both sides of open hood

you can go tight,as seen below

check the stove manual for needed clearances

My small contribution relates to the entrance corner next to the frig. I would radius that with a large radius or angle it Make the flow more comfortable. Also vote for no island seating in favor of storage.

Thank you so much, artistsharonva, jpp221 and dan1888. I need to upload better and more up to date floor plans and elevations to give an accurate picture of what we now have.

There is no seating at the island - we took that out to get more storage.

We put back a narrow full height pull out pantry between the fridge and the adjacent wall that had previously been removed to make sure we have enough clearance the refrigerator. We don't have any uppers, so there will be a 3/4" panel on the right side of the fridge. I'm pretty sure we have fillers next to the slide in range.

jpp221, we have a large flat screen TV on the wall adjacent to the den. We want to keep the layout as spacious as possible so after much consternation decided against lining that wall with built ins. I realize it looks like we don't have much storage, especially with no uppers in the kitchen, but we have worked through where we're going to put everything - mostly in drawers in the island and perimeter kitchen wall. I will post a more clear floor plan now and will upload some current elevations and views a bit later.

ishop19 thank you for your opinion on keeping the color of the pantry white. I was leaning that way and it's great to have a confirming 2nd opinion - although I must tell you the "gorgeous view" you mentioned isn't real! I wish it was ... we do have a nice lanai (patio) on the other side that looks over a little park.

Do you think the pantry should fill up that whole corner close to the window wall? It is fairly dead space but I thought it might look weird to put it smack up against the window.

Sorry I accidently deleted my comment, but I’m glad you saw it. I’ts hard to say about the dead space. What would you do in there? Do you have a elevation view of that side of the room done both ways?. If the cabinet were to fill up the whole space, please consider how the doors open and if there is enough room or if the cabinet handle would potentially hit the window. You could do a slide out there like next to your refrigerator (but make sure it could be pulled out taking into account window trim).

Your big windows are awesome...I thought for sure there were mountains out there!!!

I forgot, Ruth, you are in Hawaii!! Did you get your Flooret yet with the free shipping to the boat?

Which island?

ishop19 in your deleted comment you had asked if there was some reason for the space between the pantry and the window wall. I thought you might be suggesting we extend the pantry all the way to the corner there. In that corner is a tall window with 3 awnings that push out. We originally had the pantry only 3-4 inches in from that window because we have so much other window space on that wall and it's otherwise "dead space". I should have noted that we are not "walling in" that window - it will remain as a window - and we decided it might look strange to have it covered by a built-in. So now the pantry starts 9" away from the window and we reduced the depth of the pantry from 18" (seen in the floor plan below) to 16". The 12" deep rectangle to the immediate right of the table is a freestanding bookcase shown just for scale.

Now that I've learned how to format my pictures better I deleted the last ones and post them again here. Any other comments on the pantry (color, placement etc.) would be welcome.

Current floor plan:

View showing dimensions of pantry in corner (upper right). We reduced depth to 16".

Current refrigerator side elevation:

Current sink/window side elevation:

View from pantry wall to kitchen:

Current pantry elevation.

ishop19, yes we are in Oahu. We will order the flooring (Flooret Soho) soon.

Ahhhhh, I didn’t see the other window!! That makes sense. I think you’ve come up with a good solution. Maybe a live plant can hang out by that window, then it won’t be “dead space” anymore! Lol!

Ooooh Soho will be nice! I still gravitate toward it for my Hawaiian decor!

I do have another idea for the window cabinet. Do do they have any natural wood options? Then it could incorporate with your table and shelf unit more on that side of the room instead?

Ruth Leonard, do you have a green thumb?

For your 9” x 16” window corner, you could:

1)hang an orchid plant from the ceiling

2)install floating shelves for plants. They could maybe be installed on the 16” side of the cabinet vs the 9” wall for stability. Keep them spaced far enough apart to still see through the window and have an open feeling.

3)Do a hanging herb garden. This one has a simple aesthetic to match your design.

Ruth Leonard,

I added to my comment above about maybe doing the window cabinet in a natural wood option. I looked at the picture again and it struck me that your shelves are pictured in natural wood and if you like that idea of natural wood for the window cabinet then perhaps see what it would look like to change the upper fridge cabinet to natural wood also (and maybe the sliders) leaving the other lower cabinets white. Wonder how the picture would look like that. Thoughts? Maybe that would be too much wood for you on the kitchen side.

Thanks for those interesting ideas ishop19! The design pictures I posted above are not accurate on some of the color details. The appliances will be matte black as shown but the cabinet door on top of fridge will be glass fronted and framed in stainless steel to match the range hood. The floor will be Flooret Soho - as you know that's a cool bleached oak color with hardly any variation. In fact, if you flip the color of the table top in those pictures with the color of the floor, that would be more accurate.

The countertop material will not be pure white as shown - it will be Silestone Eternal Calacatta Gold which has lots of white and silvery gray in it and hardly any gold. That will go all the way up to the ceiling over the range. We won't necessarily leave that cherry bookcase along the DR wall. I hesitate to even call it a dining room - we're going for more of a wide open "great room" feel even though the entire 1st floor space is only about 700 sf. We want minimal wood accents for the kitchen floating shelves, two long, parallel TV rails that we will have on our living room wall and the staircase rails.

Given that some of the colors are a little off in the pictures I posted, it's probably not time yet to ask for opinions on whether or not I should go for a different finish on the DR pantry and/or island. I'll ask our designer to give us a more current picture of the overall space. Not sure when that will be available but when it is I will post.

Ok good points because I was definitely using the pictures to come up with ideas. The plans above the fridge and the countertop sound amazing. I don’t think a mock up could come close!!!

I like the way you layout is coming along. I just have a few observations. Make sure your trash pullout will clear your oven handle. I can’t see the detail on your drawings and maybe your KD has covered you on this. Make sure you have a filler on both sides of that corner. Double check the specs on your stove. I think it will be deeper than the 24” counter - more like 27” plus the handle depth. So maybe a 4 to 5 inch filler is needed there in order to be able to open the drawer and trash pull out. Likewise you’ll need to ensure the stove will clear the trash pullout handles. So a filler on that side too, as was mentioned up thread. And you’ll need to figure enough clearance on the right side of the stove to be able to pull it out for servicing or replacement without damaging adjacent cabinets.

Honu3421, here's a recent email on that subject from our designer. It went right over my head. You think this covers any issues?

The oven is app 2’5” from back to front handle.

Door for blind corner must clear oven door handle.

24” cab + 8” filler piece + blind cabinet door.

15” blind corner shelving needs 15” clear opening width.

Cabinet fabricator will probably be making one large corner cabinet w/ door.

Good eye Honu3421. Here's an unfortunate photo of a corner with out the proper filler widths in corner.

It is 1 of the reasons, stoves are suggested to have more room on both sides.

Sounds like your designer has worked this out. An 8" filler is wider than usual, but better to have a wide filler than a drawer hitting stove handle, or worse prevention drawer from opening.

Hope that helps explain the situation. :)

To maximize storage & help corner situation & avoid 8" filler. put the smallest width cabinet to the right of stove. use it as a cookie sheet or spice pullout.

Without knowing the specs for your stove and your blind corner IDK if 8” is enough for your filler. Don’t forget you also need to account for the door pull or knob on that 15” door and the fact that your stove may not fit flush against the wall. So maybe add another inch? Even at 8”, that’s a big filler. And you will still need a filler next to the stove. I think you can do better with design and function

I agree with artistsharonva about the benefits of moving the stove away from the corner. Unless you have that stove-in-the-corner set up now and are fine with it, I would move the stove to the left. Maybe you already considered a super Susan and rejected it,but I think it’s a good solution for getting your stove out of the corner and eliminating huge fillers.

Honu3421andartistsharonva, THANK YOU for your input on the kitchen layout.

I was so busy deciding a million other things that I didn't look at that corner very carefully. Yikes!

The oven specs are 37+"h, 28+"d, 30"w. On the floor plan, the 8" filler is on the sink side of the corner only. There's no filler that I can see on the oven/range side. That 8" added to a 24" deep cabinet gives a total of 32" depth on the right side of the oven/range. Designer said she's allowing 29" depth to the oven handle. So - does that mean there's only about 3" of clearance between the oven and the adjacent corner cabinet? That is tight!

Next to the 8" filler on the sink side is an 18" cabinet for a blind corner pullout and then the trash pullout. We have not selected a blind corner unit yet. I did reject a Super Susan there because we don't like the idea of bending over to reach the bottom of it. The designer is steering us to a rev-a-shelf whose shelves slide out to the left (https://goo.gl/KScCz3). I'm not crazy about that unit but after looking at the video I see why she recommended it.

We're doing a total remodel so nothing is fixed yet - HOWEVER, any changes have to be made now to stay on schedule.

We did once have the oven farther to the left on that run but we wanted to maximize the counter space next to the fridge. I guess I could live with less than 36" of counter space if it means a better corner design. I do like the idea of a narrow pullout for cookie sheets but I really wanted a spacious blind corner unit since we don't have any uppers. Other than a super Susan, any recommendations?

THANK YOU!

I am a homeowner, not a KD - you should go over your kitchen measurements in detail with your KD to get your questions answered. It sounds like you have a lot of balls in the air on your project. Once you button down the design on this kitchen, you can give your full attention to the other decisions in front of you.

This thread had veered off the original topic. If you want kitchen layout advice from seasoned GW designers, I would suggest you start a new thread with a different topic (relating to kitchen design or layout). But be prepared for some tough love. ;-)

Good luck on your project.

Thanks Honu3431. You're right that this has veered off the original topic. I didn't mean that to happen but the kitchen design is what a few people wanted to comment on so I went with it. I started out in Houzz asking for kitchen design help almost a year ago and got some great advice. We thought we had it buttoned down - now I'm not so sure...;-(