normally the plumber does the rough in and leaves it like this

look over at the shower. and this one shows the drain (this was a hot mop and a dry pack mortar bed.) The plumber should be able to do the drain after knowing what kind of waterproofing the tile guy is doing.

I had lath/plaster walls for my shower, but even w/cement board, the plumber should be able to do the rough in

This was after tiling (obviously). we ran into trouble as the valve (the black thing) cover wouldn't sit flat on the tile. the rough in valve needed to be pushed further into the wall.

I had to remove a few tiles and the plumber redid the depth. Make sense?

I redid the tiles, and the valve cover went on perfectly

So, ask your plumber if this is what he means, and show this to your tiler.

btw, this was another one we did w/the Cement board. you'll see the rough in valves protruding

show your plumber the faucet you're using and the tile.

wow Beth, so the plumber also needs to know what kind of waterproofing the tile guy is doing? plumber didn't ask this and seemed like since it was a middle square drain it wouldn't be a prob. I told him that he should leave the pipe sticking up and the tile guy would cut it at the height it would need to go as per the tile guy. It seems like sort of a big deal that u had to redo the area but it's not like u had to redo 1/2 a wall. the plumber told me he'd have to redo it all as if we'd get charged the full amount twice. Did u have a licensed tile guy and a licensed plumber? did it seem like a big deal to anyone that they had to redo this? extra fees...? This is where i can see hiring a general contractor would come in handy as they'd have their guys that they're used to working together so they'd know how to coordinate. thx!!

Yes, the plumber is correct in asking for the finished depth of the wall. That's so you don't end up with the fiasco shown above where tile had to be removed so the valve could be moved after the fact--which is exactly what your plumber said he wanted to avoid (and to avoid you having to pay for him to do it twice). Not to mention that removing tiles could possibly compromise the waterproofing. Not only do you need to know what goes directly on the studs, but you also need to know the thickness of the tile. There is absolutely no reason the tiler cannot give you that finished dimension.

A good plumber will always ask for the finished depth of the wall. And if they don't ask, you should always volunteer that information.

I'm not understanding what you mean by wrapping your arms around the drain.

kim,,,yes, my plumber is good (and also a friend) and the tile guys were top notch. (although I did have to fix a few things to my standards. some of the tile in the mosaic wasn't straight) as for the tiles around the valve cover, the tile guys were done by the time we got to the valve cover. rather than have them come back for 3 tiles, I did it myself after the plumber pushed in the valve. tiling the three tiles wasn't a big deal, and the grout was all ready to go. didn't affect the water-proofing since this was a 'mud' wall.

most of the plumbers are familiar w/diff materials. Since your guy is doing cement board, the plumber shouldn't have any issues determining how far to set the valve. Ditto the drain. those are all pretty much standard. tile guy will set the drain cover when he's done.

catbuilder, that's interesting that my tile guy does not know the answer to this and so now I'm concerned. I'm going to have to meet with him again and measure the concrete board (assuming he'll be using one the same size as a sample i have at home from a neighbor's remodel) and the tile and have him tell me how much mortar will go on and anything else he might be using. I think I need to have a more in depth convo with him regarding water proofing. He was going to have someone else do the job but now it's back to him doing the job and we finalize details friday so in the end I'm not comfortable and hope the plumber will understand me delaying the job after he had most of the day blocked out for us.

I wasn't being literal when I spoke about wrapping my arms around moving the drain to the middle. I've had convos here regarding moving the drain to the middle or keeping it closer to the wall where it's at since it's a tub and having it in the middle isn't important to me as far as being symmetrical and folks kindly explained to me why it should go in the middle and some said it doesn't have to and I gave in to doing what the tile guy recommended since we were trying to be easy to work with as noone's begging for work right now and he's half the price of others. He also doesn't collect payment until the job is done and we're satisfied and he's license looks good with no complaints over the past 4 yrs so in the end not fully buying into the idea of moving the drain to the middle we decided to do it but it's going to be $500-600. If we were to keep it closer, maybe a foot from wall, I'm not sure how much we'd save but the plumber said almost everyone puts it in the middle, also, since it's standard, so I decided to go with it rather than driving people crazy and having them jack up my costs if I seemed like a difficult customer. Most people seem to say the drain should go in the middle. From how I take it it's a comfort thing and a looks thing, not necessarily for drainage. I guess it would seem different than my tub. I should go and measure my tub to see what I think the difference would be compared to 1/4" per sq foot.

thx!

Beth, u might've told me this before, but you didn't move your drain too far from the wall. Your shower is bigger than mine but your second bath might be the same as mine. was there a tub there? where did u put the drain in that shower? is it under the rubber on the floor? for waterproofing it looks like u did concrete board, rubber...? Did u paint the waterproofer on, too? the red or purple stuff? thx!

kim,,,since this tile guy seems a little, 'um, uninformed', please get pictures of how he does the cement board and how he's going to do the tiling.

what kind of tile are you doing? does it need to have a dry layout in order to get symmetrical cuts?

what about the niche? if doing a niche, proper placement is needed in order to get the best layout w/the tile around it. look at my niche, and my herringbone accent.

Took two of them, and myself, hours doing a dry layout and figuring the cuts. I don't have slivers of tile anywhere in the shower, nor around the niche. all the measurements were done before a tile was cut.

for instance, your niche, determine how big you want it. then find a place for it (usually between studs somewhere) and determine the measurement of the tile. You want the niche placed where you'll get full tiles around. It's all about the math and a good tile setter will know this. If you guy just shows up and starts putting tile on the wall, without doing a dry layout in his head, paper or on the ground, then get ready for a less than adequate tile job.

Floor tile usually goes in first w/the wall tiles coming down on top of them.

all change of planes need 100% silicone, not grout. in other words, do not grout the joint between the floor/wall, or the joint where two walls meet. you can get a silicone caulk in the same color as your grout.

I put my drain under my shower head. since my shower is so large, putting it in the middle didn't make sense since the majority of the water falls in first 1/4 front portion.

the other shower was a tub removal and we left the drain up towards the front. the floor was properly sloped (yes, we went over this). up to you where you want it.

I knew what you meant when you said, “even though I still can't wrap my arms around it 100%,” but, for future reference, you couldn’t wrap your head around it. :)

Good luck with your project!

It sounds like it might be nothing more than a language issue. In my opinion your tiler did the right thing in asking the plumber to leave the drain riser long so he could cut it himself to the correct height. But please do ask him what waterproofing he is going to use. Cement board is not waterproof, so if he tells you it is, don't accept that. Think of it this way: after it rains, where does all the water on the concrete sidewalks go? Most of it gets soaked into the concrete. Also, it's worrisome that he's half the price of others. Generally you get what you pay for.

well, that can be true of getting what u pay for. He was referred-not a direct referral but i did see pics and at the time he was willing and had experience doing curbless in the same size bathroom. I also think his price has increased a everyone's busy but we'll confirm this friday. From what i recall, when we spoke him in the summer we did talk about redgard on top of the concrete board and by the time we were ready to do the job he said he was so busy he sent over someone that works for him who has some different knowledge and his ways of doing things and even knew how to do epoxy. he was planning to go out of the country for the holidays and his price was 1/3 higher. He wasn't licensed but would've worked under the licensed guy. With all of the inconveniences we told the owner we would wait for him but it's definitely harder to communicate, even though I'm fluent in spanish. It's definitely better in person than on the phone.

Sammy, I do say "wrap my head around" sometimes. Sometimes I want to get out of my head I guess so I go to my arms. :) Or, I used my head so much that I forget and say arms. :)

Beth, I am using small subway tile (2"x4" I believe). My shower is small so hopefully that will work fine. All I knew to ask regarding tile at the time was that he will start in the middle so that each side is symmetrical. I could see how it'd take math to decide if there were going to be slivers of tile. I doubt that would've ever bothered me and now that I know it I'd notice. :)

cat builder,,, cbu, with a vapor barrier between it and the studs, is perfectly fine. Even the manufacturer advises to do it that way. however, doing that, AND using Redgard, can cause issues to arise. I've done hardiboard w/barrier behind it without any issues.

So Kim, if doing Redgard on top of the CBU, you won't need the plastic barrier behind that. The guys over at JohnBridge tile forum explain it much better than I do, so peruse their forum for more info.

As for your tile guy, please do what I've suggested w/your tile. if you're going to use this guy, then make sure you get involved if you want it done right. It doesn't sound like he knows what he's doing (and you speak his language and he still can't get it??? )

you may want to hire someone else. Or, be there while he's doing it and play 'supervisor'.

measure your wall, then figure out your tile. (top to bottom too) you don't want slivers on the bottom row. and you don't want little 1/2" pieces in the corner on the walls.

honestly, you'd be better off going w/larger tiles. 2x4 is small and means a lot more grout. at least go w/3x6. 3x9, 2x8, 3x12, would be better

what is going on your curb? don't use those tiles

Beth, I remeasured the tile and it's 3" x 6." the tile in the old bath was 4 x 4 and i didn't mind it when u say "too many grout lines" do u mean too many visually or for cleaning?

what i'm not sure of is if the tile guy doesn't know what he's doing in regards to the laying out of tile or if it's cuz i've never asked him about those details and he didn't offer it. None of the guys came over offered those details. My husband thinks i'm scaring the guys away by asking too many questions but I think it might be more that he doesn't like questions and ideally contractors would like someone who's not going to question them but I'm not asking nearly the questions that are being suggested here and on JohnBridge, but I have been asking more questions as I learn more and some may find that a turn off. Ideally I would've known what to ask from the beginning. I was hoping that this was one job that i wouldn't have to learn about or micromanage since I was hiring someone to do the job for me so that I didnt' have to spend the time researching but this was what happened when we put in a pool. I had to hold folks by the hand in some things and knew more than them about the cleaning system... I was hoping it'd be different with tile. I'm not sure what getting a license entails, but was hoping it meant they'd be capable. I guess that may be naive.

as for the curb i really like the look of a threshold but all i found at floor and decor and lowes was marble or glass so that seemed like it's wasn't going to work after asking here and JohnBridge. The tile guy said he doesn't know how to work with glass, also, and that he's always used tiles so I found the largest tiles at floor and decor and figured I'd go with them. Even with that, though, if the curb is 4 x 4 I'm not sure how I'd use the 3 x 12 tile and I have to look back at my notes but I wanted a smaller curb due to my original idea of curbless and small bathroom so I'll have to see but I think I asked him if he could do a 3 x 3 curb, which would then be a 1/2" bigger or so if the block was 3 x 3.

thx!

Are you using white subway tile? Why wouldn't a marble threshold work? At lowes I got a cultured marble (faux) for like $26 never stains and it looks great. Id deffientlydeffiently go with a threshold and so glad I did the cuts with tile would have been miserable to do..

Draw a simple picture of a section of the valve wall, from the studs out.

As an example, the cement board that goes on the studs will be 1/2" thick. A typical liquid surface applied waterproofing membrane's dried thickness will be less than 1/16th" thick. The thinset applied with a 1/4" square notch trowel will be 1/8" thick. The tile will be 3/16" thick.

For this example, from stud face to tile face, the wall thickness is roughly between 13/16th" and 7/8" thick. Valves are designed to have some leeway in adjusting for wall thickness, but yes, you still want to get them close when you rough in.

A drawing showing the thicknesses of the individual components may be easier than interpreting words.

Elizabeth, thx. yes, white subway. I was told here that u can't clean marble with many chemicals so it's not good to have in a shower. I thought it was real marble at Lowes as "faux" is not in the description. Either way, I was bummed out about the subway tile on the shower but my friend had tile on her shower (but larger tile) and it matched the rest of her shower and looked great so, again, wanting to make this tile guy happy and make things easy I decided tile would be fine, but that I'd use the largest pieces possible. I was also told the glass threshold I found would not be a good idea or possible for various reasons including if it was tempered glass or not... and a friend thought it'd turn color later. My vanity top is grey/white marble, so that would tie in nicely if it matched. I'll check into it!

creative tile. thx. i'll check it out!

MongoCT. that's a great way to doing it! I bet he'd be able to tell me roughly when we see him in person and drawing it. I got out the graph paper and wrote what u said and i'll compare. I know that was an example but I'm guessing it'll be close, although we did have a tile guy come over and say due to our wansecoat (sp?) he wouldn't recommend his "50 yr shower" (I think we kerdi? materials...) because it would stick out too far on top of the drywall and it wouldn't look more flush like he figured I'd want. So, I can see why the plumber needs to know dimensions. He also mentioned some people use chicken wire when they use concrete board...

kimromen - agree about the marble. I know people use it, but I have ready so many complaints about it that I would never use it in a shower. Just asking for trouble IMHO.

Chessie, have u heard about the faux marble? I guess it depends what it's made of

I went ahead and created a new thread just on this issue so maybe I'll get some replies there, too. How many times have I made my mind up and now I'm back to deciding. :) In the end if I don't find anything that I'm pretty confident about I can use tile.

Since we're on the topic, the size of a threshold or tile can make it so that we have to have a certain size curb, or so it seems. I wanted a smaller size curb since I originally wanted to do a curbless shower and it's a small bathroom. There will be a glass door on the curb so I'm not sure what's the smallest we can go. The tile guy uses block for the curb. If we go with tile does 3" x 3" sound ok for the curb and we could use 3" x 12" tile? The only other large subway tile I found at floor and decor is 4.25" x 9 3/4". I could use the floor tile but it's 8" x 8" patterned moroccan-type tile so it'd have to be done very well for it to look good, I'd think... thx!

Beth, do u have a curb? what did u use on your curb? I love your bathroom each time I look at it.

" As an example, the cement board that goes on the studs will be 1/2" thick. A typical liquid surface applied waterproofing membrane's dried thickness will be less than 1/16th" thick. The thinset applied with a 1/4" square notch trowel will be 1/8" thick. The tile will be 3/16" thick. "

This is what the plumber needs. And these measurements can vary depending on materials. He has some play in the location of the valve, but not much.

Can I assume you don't have the cement board or tiles on site so you can't measure them yourself?

kim,,in my shower it's 6". I used carrara for the curb and up the side and top of the pony wall. In my neighbors, we did a 4" curb and I used a quartz backsplash piece (you can find them in 8' lengths, 6" or 4" tall for about 40 bucks or so) They're the backsplashes that go with vanities and such. Most of the time they sell them separately. you could find one in a white quartz. I had mine cut down from 6" to 4", and 5' long. used that for the curb. Glass will sit right on top.

Beth, Carrera is marble, right? Quartz is a natural stone, too, I believe? So, it also can't be cleaned with vinegar and more harsh cleaners? I called the local tile shops and so far nothing. I will check into stone fabricators but need to figure out regarding which stone I could use in my situation for cleaning. thx!

quartz is man made from real stone, crushed and compressed with resin material. carrara is a type of marble. you can use regular cleaners w/quartz and most granites. marble requires a specific cleaning safe material.

just keep trying at the fabricators shop or a stone yard. I'm sure every place has a 6" leftover piece after cutting!

what are you doing for your countertop? any extra material from that?

or, just see if you can purchase a ready-made backsplash piece of quartz. ( i think the big box stores also sell these) (check over w/their kitchen center and see if they will let you purchase one long enough. but if they charge you a few hundred for it, tell them to pound. shouldn't cost you more than $60 for a 6' long strip.

they (home depot) have this 36" long threshold for your curb, but it's not long enough

In a pinch, just get a 24" tile in the white ceramic to match your subway tiles and cut a few of those. you'll only have 2-3 grout lines on the curb. use a schluter metal strip for the border

Do you have your shower faucet valve? There are directions in there that explain all this...maybe if you show him those he will understand what the plumber is asking for. Also most valves give you about 1/4" of play so if you can find out how thick his cement board and waterproofing will be, then add your tile thickness, that should do it...

Here is a partial install sheet as an example:

"My plumber did the rough in (valves) for the shower"

"No adjustments had to be made."

That's because the adjustments are done prior to wall board.

That was the original point of this thread. The plumber needs the info to set the depth for rough in.

30 comments, 2 weeks and this thread has gone full circle:)

Also be aware certain rough in valves such as MOEN always have the handle sticking out from the trim which to me looks horrible. It is their design so even if your plumber installs correctly the handle will be about 3/4" out from the wall plate. Delta allows a tighter fit to the wall plate.

It is good they are asking so provide them with all the info needed. If you can also have the trim for the shower valve as some require the valve to be set in a little deeper or it will look odd sticking out. The plumber can set the valve in or out depending on what looks good with the handle to wall trim. Get it wrong and it just looks bad even though technically it is a good instal.

Having the valve, trim and tile there will allow the plumber to show you how it will look installed. Google MOEN shower valve and you will see what happens when this isn't done.

Have the trim kit there!