Its a house we have purchased and remodeling so we haven't had a chance to use the existing kitchen

Fori, I am open to suggestions. Cabinets have not been ordered yet, the range is a gas/electric and needs to stay pretty close to that location. The main sink is also in the existing location to be centered on the window. The rest is all up for moving.

The current layout is below. The wall on the right in the image has a desk at the top and then 12" deep cabinets along the wall. The other cabinets do have uppers and lowers all around. I am open to suggestions on the layout.

There are many archived threads on this debate. I love my small prep sink, though it is used more as a bar sink on the fridge side of the island. It keeps people out of my work zone and is not used for prep unless I have guests helping me cook. In the location shown on your first drawing, if you have two people at the sinks, they will be a trifle snug though not intolerably so. If you move it to the other side, nearer the fridge it might prove more useful. This would be especially true if you have children, or entertain frequently. And I do think enlarging it would be wise, as you do have space for it. Just my thoughts based on how things flow in our house. Good luck.

Don't have a pantry next to island seating (ask me how I know...). 4' between counter (with seating...when the stool is pushed back) and pantry is too tight. I will have 7.5' in my new kitchen and I still worry about bothering anyone sitting there.

A lot depends on how you use your kitchen and how much. A prep sink in the island can come in very handy, especially when you're entertaining. It's a great place to do stuff without having to turn your back to your guests. I also think at least two sink locations is important. So, I'd definitely keep it.

I don't think the layout is that bad. It's similar to ours which has the sink on the east wall, range on the north and frig & wall ovens on the west wall with an island in the middle and informal dining to the south. It's worked well for us and we do a lot of cooking, baking and entertaining. We're also doing something similar in our new house.

I'd definitely change the lighting. Even with good under counter lighting you're going to have some really bad shadows. You need lighting on work surfaces not in the aisles. As a start your downlights should be lined up over the edge of your counters. And then place 4 downlights near the four corners of your island (assuming you'll also have pendants).

The contractor's opinion makes sense with the current layout. The sinks are right by each other and the prep area is between the big sink and range. The island sink is pointless.

The new layout can be improved, and I encourage you to consider others' options so that you create an easy work flow. If you keep the new layout as is, the work flow will benefit from an island prep sink. That's because you've implemented a barrier island. It's between the fridge and large sink and you have to walk around the island every time you take food from the fridge to wash. With an island sink, you have a short and straight path for cleaning and prep. Turn and put into the pots/pans. The big sink turns into the clean up zone with the dishwasher. A nice perk when you have a family because your helpers can be doing clean up out of the cooking zone.

Have you read the FAQ for design? It really helps when planning, especially a kitchen large enough to separate the work zones, like yours. New to Kitchens FAQ

Welcome to the Kitchens Forum, Mark!

Have you had a chance to read the "Best Practice" FAQ threads? I'm asking b/c I see several issues. (They're in the "Read Me" thread: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500754/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first)

In all honesty, the current layout is better.

You say you're not willing to move the range or sink -- two of the key components in a Kitchen. Do you have a basement under the Kitchen? If so, it's pretty easy and inexpensive to move Kitchen plumbing and gas. If you're on a slab, though, it can get expensive. If two of your key components cannot move, your options are limited.

In your proposed layout:

(1) You cannot fit 6 seats like you show -- two people cannot share "leg" space . At most, you can only fit 4, and that's assuming you have 2' of linear space per seat.

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(2) Your island is a "barrier island"; it's a barrier b/w the refrigerator and both sinks & Prep Zones. (One Prep Zone is in the island on the sink side and the other is b/w the sink on the perimeter and the range.)

If you move the prep sink to the refrigerator side of the island, then you eliminate the barrier island effect for the island Prep Zone.

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(3) your aisles are too narrow to fit seating + cabinets/appliances together on both sides of the Kitchen.

• For a one-person work aisle, you need a minimum of 42".
• For two or more people working in the Kitchen, you need 48" aisles.
• With seating + appliances/work counters on the same aisle, you need 54"

Keep in mind that aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out the farthest into the aisle -- counter edges, appliance handles, etc. They are not measured cabinet-to-cabinet b/c cabinet measurements only include the cabinet box, not the door, knobs/pulls, and counter overhang (1.5" past the front of the cabinet box).

Looking at your proposed layout, you have the following:

25.5" for sink run along the wall

+ 48" island (assuming it's not really 51" when counting the counter overhangs)

+ 31" Refrigerator depth (counter-depth refrigerator)

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104.5"

Calculating your Kitchen at 186" wide (24" + 4'6" + 36" range/cooktop + 4' + 24" = 186")

186" - 104.5" = 81.5" for two aisles.

Splitting that in half: 81.5" / 2 = 40.75"

That's too narrow for either aisle, especially with seating!

44" is the minimum aisle width for seating with some traffic but no cabinets/appliances/pantries behind the seats. (36" is if there is no traffic and people squeeze by to get to the "inside" seats.)

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(4) Refrigerator & Freezer -- Counter-depth? If so, their doors must stick out past the surrounding cabinets, counter edges, walls, etc., to allow the doors to open fully for full access and cleaning.

Here's the lighting for our new kitchen. The range is on the north wall. The circuiting is somewhat different as we're going with lights that are all individually addressable with the control system. BTW, there's a double sink on the west wall, a prep sink in the NE corner of the island and then a small sink in the coffee center just south of the wall oven stack. We'll keep them all busy.

If you keep the current layout, you should be able to slide the sink over closer to the fridge without major plumbing. That would make it quite a bit more useful and I think a valuable addition to the kitchen.

Do take note of the above comments about clearances and stuff.

Listen to Buehl! I suspect your contractor is not a cook.

Mock up your aisles with seating to see how tight it is. I think you may come to really regret this layout once your family “lives” it. That would be a shame considering the expense of kitchen remodels.

This proposal is not an efficiently planned working kitchen. When I was planning my modest-sized kitchen remodel, my goal was the most efficient layout I could get with the constraints I had. Frankly, your “old” layout is much more efficient.

At least by putting a larger prep sink on the other side of the island across from the fridge wall, you negate the barrier island to some extent. Your old layout did not need a prep sink, this one needs a larger one in a different location than the old one. However, that “fix” does not address some of the other issues.

Can the refrigerator, freezer, and pantry be recessed into the wall behind them in your proposed layout? If so, how far?

• 3" (just into the wall, not into the room behind it)
• More by recessing them into the room(s) behind it?

Could you please post a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen is on? It lets us see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of the house and how traffic flows, through, in, and around the Kitchen. (It would probably answer my question as to whether you can recess the items into the wall.)

Where is your Dining Room?

Family/Great/Living Room?

How many in your family? Children (now or future)?

I like having my prep sink on the long side of the island across from my range top. Consider switching the range and refrigerator walls and installing a larger prep sink across from your cooktop. This puts your food storage convenient to both sinks, and when prepping at the island you would have a nice view out of your windows. I have a similar set up in my kitchen and was able to move the island so that I have a nice wide aisle in front of the refrigerator. Makes the kitchen seem so much more spacious with the tall items tucked into the back wall. Similar ideas below.

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Yeah, you're measurements for the proposed layout don't mean anything because they don't indicate starting and stopping points. Is that 4'6" from the wall or from the corner of the counter? Seating across from fridge and pantry doors need a lot of space. You have to subtract the door swings from your aisle. It would be a good idea for you to get some boxes and set them at the plan's measurements. Boxes because they emphasize the vertical height of impediments in a way taping on the floor does not. A lesson from Buehl. Don't squeeze everything in to accommodate more appliances/seating. Allow adequate aisles and work space.

An alternative to the island is making the counters deeper (~30") for more work space. You might be able to fit a narrow table in there, depending on the final work flow.

I have a 13' wide kitchen. Too wide for an efficient galley and too narrow for an efficient island. With a slab foundation and no plumbing routed to the middle, unlike yours, I chose to take out the island/cooktop configuration and pull out the 24" deep bases from the wall for ~30" countertops. I have room in the aisle for some narrow pieces for landing areas, if desired. The side by the dining room is clean up and dish/cutlery storage. The other is pantry/prep/cooking. I deleted the eating area because we only need one, and it's right next to the kitchen. This is just an example of using your space to fit your needs and wants. Let yourself run through the options.

Some great suggestions in this thread and I will be working many of them in and seeing what other layout options there might be. Here is the first floor layout with out any adjustments for suggestions (yet).

I would keep the prep sink, but move it in either plan. Below are visuals of the prep paths in each layout, with the prep sinks moved. If you keep the prep sink, the second layout has a much tighter work triangle. I'd also switch the fridge and freezer in the new layout--unless the door swings cannot be reversed. I drew a shallow pantry, which gives you a few more inches of floor space for the seating.

No one has mentioned the TV in the 'cave.' I assume that telescopes out for viewing from the island seats. You might also consider an appliance garage, especially if you use a shallow pantry, and need more storage.

Think work triangle - sink - range - fridge. How would like to walk around an island when you want to go from the fridge to the sink?

I moved my fridge/freezer further away on the other side of the island and it was the best decision for the layout. Walking a few feet more is well worth the other benefits of the new layout (I have few walls in an open floor plan). I was able to fit a larger integrated 36" fridge and 24" freezer, add a built in Miele coffee machine and open up a corner visually, that was blocked by the old 48" fridge.

I had a few minutes to play around with the layout and have moved the sink and lights in the first layout. The second flips the fridge/freezer to the north wall and the range to the east wall. The second layout does eliminate the wall oven. Wife was starting to really like the idea of the wall oven though so i might have to find a spot.

My personal preference is the 1st layout. First for the wall oven. If you cook/bake much then having two ovens, especially gas in the range and electric in the wall, is really really nice. The oven stack can also include a warming drawer and a MW or CSO.

Second, for us there'd be no benefit in the second layout. With our layout similar to your first we grab stuff out of the frig and put it on the island as a primary landing zone. From there stuff gets prepped and off to the range or ovens. Then often back to the island for plating or in to a warming drawer. BTW, I'd ignore the work triangle. Great bit of marketing but of little practical benefit.

Third, I think a range and hood look better aesthetically when looking from the informal dining.

Lighting looks much better. I'd move the two over the sink closer together and ideally over the outside edges of the sink to eliminate shadows in the bowls.

Traffic to the fridge occurs throughout the day. It's much better to have it on the outer areas of a layout, by dining if possible, so that family and friends aren't constantly walking through the work zones. I'd keep the range/cooktop there, as it's protected from random traffic better.

I worked this up last night and didn't get a chance to post it. (I was hoping to have time today to do a detailed analysis, but I did not.) It only has a few tweaks from your original proposed layout, so if you've moved from that, it may be obsolete. I was also going to work up what I would do in your situation (i.e., move things around as needed), but I didn't have time and probably won't for at least a couple of days.

Here's what I did last night.

[Select/click on an image to see a larger version]

Island: 113"W x 41.5"D

You don't have room for a deeper island and still have workable aisles around the island.

Note: While 42" is the minimum aisle depth for a one-person kitchen, I have found that 45" is the minimum when there's a DW on the aisle...that is, if you want to be able to maneuver around the DW while the DW door is open (loading/unloading).

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Zone Map:

I would not put the refrigerator deep inside the Kitchen. As someone else mentioned, the refrigerator is used throughout the day and should be easily accessed from outside the Kitchen. In addition, others may need it while you're preparing a meal and you won't want them underfoot while you're working! Notice where I put it in the above layout -- on the perimeter.

The advantge of Buehl cutting back on the sink counter run is maneuverability around the island seating. In most of your proposals, you have a long counter run before the sink that is not going to be used much for prepping....the space is much better used for floor space around the island seating, and you will save money on cabs.

If you can find another spot for the pantry, you could use your layout # 2 and still give your wife the wall oven. See romy718's reveal below. The only difference is that you will have continuous counter instead of a doorway next to your refrigerator and freezer.

after-much-procrastination-my-reveal

Another option:

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Zone Map:

Buehl - We Want SW Back Unconditionally thank you so much for all the help. I like option 2 as well, going to be a hard decision. I was visiting my parents for the holidays and remembered I had some soapstone lab counters and a soapstone sink that I picked up 15 years ago (8 linear feet). They have been sitting behind a shed for the past 15 years but still look great. This has got me thinking about doing soapstone on the perimeter countertops if the stone companies can match it, and do a different counter on the island. The cabinet color is the next choice. The floors are planned to be oak in a rustic medium tone.