" if I don't sign right that instant, then the 3 doors are $600 more tomorrow and $1000 more next week."

Maybe it's "an incentive" but I can tell you that I will not work with someone who uses that kind of tactic. I've had people pitching me like this, and when I stated that I expect a quote to be valid for a certain amount of time (not just one day), all of a sudden, they could make it for a week or longer. Sorry, but no.

A professional sales pitch is an estimate that spells out what is included in the job and a price with a time limit.

To those who expect that all decision makers are present, i.e. both spouses, I can see your point, but have to tell you that, again, you'll loose my business. The way things work in my house is that I get the bids, review them, and make the decision. Husband has yet to veto any of the projects.

I don't think that type of amount is what most folks are referring to when we are talking about assigning a value to someone's time. I haven't heard anyone here yet defend significant price drops as an incentive tactic. What most folks seems to be referencing here is a legitimate assignment of value to the salesperson's time that would be commensurate with the amount offered as a discount. I still can see no ethical problem with that type of approach.

Total turn off to me, as I said, but I can understand a bit of the incentive. I did have one company say that if I scheduled it during xyz month when they are slow, they would take off a %. that is reasonable to me, but I don't deal well with pressure to decide. I can respect that if they tell me that if I take my time they cannot guarantee that it will be done when I want it, but again, that is reasonable with scheduling and all. "If it's meant to be so be it- and if not, oh well."

To those who expect that all decision makers are present, i.e. both spouses, I can see your point, but have to tell you that, again, you'll loose my business. The way things work in my house is that I get the bids, review them, and make the decision. Husband has yet to veto any of the projects.

If I thought even for a brief moment that a salesperson was "sizing me up" as to my ability to make a decision for my household, I'd show them the door. The expectation of the presence of all those deemed to be "decision makers" by the salesperson (or their company, or whomever doesn't actually live in the home and have insight into the dynamic) is grossly outdated and dare I suggest, quite possibly indicative of misogyny. No thanks. Next.

ETA: What do businesses with this attitude do when they encounter same-sex couples? That must be TOTALLY mind-blowing. **smirk**

I will add that I believe a potential customer should be very respectful of the value of time, as they seek bids and information for a project. I try to research all I can, so I can make many decisions before seeking to consult with a professional. If I know I will be seeking bids; I try to look locally first--and then work with scheduling so that the person coming to talk with me can swing by from another job, or on their way home, etc. If I have additional questions before completing the agreement/sale--I will contact him/her by phone/email/text, whatever their preference. I'm not trying to be witchy--I just like clear pricing, written contracts, respectful business contacts. In return, I try to offer clear expectations, drinks/snacks (if job is full day), use of house facilities, and immediate payment upon satisfactory completion of the work.

If I don't accept your offer--it isn't because my husband wasn't there with me at the time. It may be because I felt pressured, or "little-womaned". It also may be that the info you provided was super helpful, and made me realize I needed to delay or rethink the whole idea. It also may be that I found another business/offer that felt like a better fit or of more value. Small incentives are perfectly reasonable. Huge price changes (more than 10-15% of project) reach "threat" level for me. Small incentives still won't get me to sign before I am ready though :)

OMG never, never will you get my business by pressuring me. I understand incentives and respect for a salesperson's time. The slightest bit of pressure though and I am done. I agree with Anglo, it is pretty rare for quality operations to use such desperate tactics.

My father was a consummate salesman, and never used high pressure tactics. HIs technique was to connect with people on a personal level and win their respect and business by respecting them. Maybe my exposure to his profession is what made me also extremely averse to high pressure salespeople? I hate it when somebody won't leave me alone on a sales floor and tend to leave if they don't get the message. These days, there're plenty of other vendors for just about everything.

I worked as a salesperson as well for a time when I was young and hated the idea of pressuring anyone into buying something they neither needed nor could reasonably afford. I really enjoyed making someone happy with their purchase.

I consider people who use such negative tactics as possibly low on the emotional intelligence scale, not very good at reading people. Sometimes I imagine they might believe they have a surefire technique, which they never vary, and blame the customer for any failure to make the sale.

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds?

But I also wonder if some might have been trained in, and expected to use such a technique, by equally insensitive management.

Most men dont mind being provided with a reasonable incentive.

As long as it works it will continue. We move on when we request a quote and they insist both husband and wife have to be present. They don't want to give anyone an "out" by asking for time to talk to the spouse not present. What I know, when a person falls for the hard sell they rarely ever feel they made a good decision.

There seems to be a bunch of assumptions out there. When surveyed, RBA customers (clearly a hard sell organization) have extremely high satisfaction rates. Facts are stubborn things in this case.

While my wife runs the household in my own situation, the request to have any and all decision makers present is far more utilitarian than just the ability to "hard close" someone out.

Even in something as straightforward as windows or siding, we have had massive issues because the expectations of what was going to be done were different from partner to partner. A contract was signed by Partner "X" and Partner "Y" was expecting something quite different when all was said and done.

At that point, there are NO good outcomes. The finger pointing starts from the outset and when all else fails, the contractor usually gets blamed.

We don't require that "all decision makers" be home, but we certainly prefer it and we have a zero pressure (i.e. completely consultative) approach. Its just a better safety net to request. Clearly there are those situations where one partner couldn't care less about home improvement projects, but that is still the minority of cases and not the rule. At the end of the day, when there is a check to be cut for work that is completed, folks tend to have an opinion about it.

Who’s survey are we going by?

The company I choose to do business with doesn't get to have a "preference" as to who's home when we meet.

A contract was signed by Partner "X" and Partner "Y" was expecting something quite different when all was said and done. -- What difference does Partner Y's opinion make if you have a legally binding contract with Partner X?

I feel sorry for those guys ida Claire. Must be desperate for business.

The contract difference is due to marital property and homeo in leagak aspects, and simple customer satisfaction in more practical terms.

"Most men dont mind being provided with a reasonable incentive" Meaning what? That women are unreasonable and too stupid to recognize a "reasonable incentive"? How about most PEOPLE don't mind being provided with a reasonable incentive? REASONABLE being the key word.

Yea, its true. Most men like being offered an incentive when its reasonable.

I have worked in sales many times in the past and I NEVER resorted to such nonsense. Wasted time? Oh yes! Emptying out a fitting room in which a woman has spent 2 hours trying on just about everything that was her size in the entire store and then not making a purchase, is "wasting time" - my time. But that goes with the job.

If I'm having a major job done, I will tell each person that I'm getting multiple quote. If that is a problem to them, then don't give me a quote. I've never had that happen.

I’m starting to get this, be pushy , but not to pushy ,try to make deals with husbands and offer incentives, bring female closers in for the females. Do I assume the males want to make deals with males in order to feel comfortable?

Please don’t assume anyone’s gender toddinmn.

This whole thread seems to be getting a bit sideways... On the plus side, there is no shortage of contractors/home improvement companies around to accommodate the buying preferences of virtually anyone. There may be a shortage of those that last (70%+ fail within 5 years) --which may have a correlation to the efficiency of their sales processes as well, but I digress. I'd simply recommend having a multi-point approach to assess whether or not to consider a given company. Focusing on one or two things at the expense of other, possibly more important factors, seems awfully silly at best. Consider say a company that has been around for decades, has an overwhelmingly positive reputation via dozens of reviews, certifications, quality products, great warranty, ethical practices, active in the community, and fair/competitive prices. To suggest that company should be disqualified for consideration because they prefer to meet with all that will have input on the project in favor of Joe the craigslist craftsman just seems counterproductive. To each their own though I suppose.

He wouldnt take no for an answer, had to say "we're done" and walk away.

I'd have done the same thing. "Pushing" is not a sales technique that works well on me.

Sometimes women are far too guarded and need to be a bit more open minded. Many female customers who at first appear very guarded turn out to fully embrace our sales incentives. In fact, we close the sale with more women than men these days. Its funny, some women tell us ,” dont even try to get a sale tonight, i just need a quote and plan on getting more estimates”. We actually wind up closing them on the first visit.

Hmmmm, wonder why people are guarded after reading some of these replies??

Its funny, some women tell us ,” dont even try to get a sale tonight, i just need a quote and plan on getting more estimates”.

If this particular woman tells you, "I am not buying today. I am getting estimates," the truth is that I AM NOT buying today. I am getting estimates. And if that's what I've determined to do, no hard sell is going to change my mind. If I've determined I want multiple estimates, I am going to get multiple estimates.

This is not a feminine foible. It is a logical decision process.

"If i know i am meeting with a single woman, i always bring my female sales rep with me to help smooth things along. Its absolutely astounding as to how well that works, everyone feels like a winner."

Surely this is a joke, isn’t it?

mrs Pete that May or May not be true for you, but it is false for many, many people. How many people do you think say to themselves “hey, I’m going to sign on the dotted line for these windows with the first guy I meet”? Probably close to none. They all sound like you. Then a good salesman comes in and builds rapport, and walks out with a check. Maybe not YOUR check, but there are 20, 50, and $100 million dollar businesses that do this all day every day. That’s indisputable. The funny thing about this whole thread is that there’s really no such thing as a hard sell. There are only good sales people and bad ones. It’s only perceived as a hard sell if the guy sucks at his job Or is a bad person and that shines through. Instead of acknowledging this, we get all of this posturing on this thread. Little contractors posturing against the big bad ones. Big ones justifying what they do. The “never me” homeowners who are almost ALWAYS the biggest suckers in the end, they simply feel compelled to overcompensate because they know thats the truth. Y’all can argue til you are blue in the face, but as we speak some people are signing up with these companies and always will. I hope that I offended everyone here, if I missed anyone my apologies. Peace.

I can't speak for all womenfolk, but I'm not so much guarded as poker face analytical when subjected to these sorts of sales pitches. I took some business classes that dealt with the psychology and tactics of sales and my husband is a sales manager, so I can't help but analyze (and then say no in the end if I don't want what's being sold).

What I found fascinating was going to a Sundance Vacations presentation/high pressure sales pitch for vacation packages - I'd won a free vacation at a baseball game and the catch was that you had to go to this presentation in order to redeem it. After a little intro where they explained what they did and poked at your pain points, they put each individual/couple with a sales person who then went for the hard sell. Our guy asked what we did and was pretty crestfallen when hubs said he was a sales manager. Thing was, the more we said no, the sweeter the deals the got. We even got sent to the back room with the boss lady, who offered us a pretty killer deal for a very affordable, flexible bundle of vacation stays in some amazing places. If we weren't trying to remodel our house, we might have said yes. The way this sales engine worked was to snag the suckers in the first round with the huge expensive packages, and then offer more and more reasonable/compelling options to more discerning customers. It worked extremely well and they had a very high deal closing rate.

The window salesmen seem to do it backwards. They open with a potentially reasonable deal and if you don't immediately jump on it, they make it worse and worse the longer you hold out. They punish you for not signing early rather than reward you for signing early. I don't know whether this is the methodology they're taught (would be surprised that it works sufficiently often) or if they're just terrible and desperate (because the door-to-door all-commission jobs are not the ones you work if you're actually good at sales).

What i mean is that when a woman tells me they arent buying anything on the first visit they usually do. Even those who claim to have been educated in sales, they still buy on the first visit. more so than men from my experience. They obviously realize they need and like what we are offering. Thats what it comes down to.

1. Whether the price goes dramatically up or down during the sales process is irrelevant. It is still designed to accomplish the same thing; capitalize on the fear of loss.

2. Actually, the very best salespeople typically prefer to be full commission in order to maximize their earnings.

“Hard sell” is clearly Defined , for those that don’t know just google it. A “good“ salesman can be judged by other things than just strictly sales numbers.

Toddinmn

so you are saying a good salesman isnt only judged by his numbers? How in the world do you judge a salesman? Based on his survival skills in the wilderness???

I guess you cant judge a good homerun hitter based on the number of homeruns he hits?

i am intrigued by the metric you are using for your evaluation.

As we know there are asterisks by some of the top homerun hitters, Some will choose to look at the numbers Regardless of how achieved some may weigh in other factors.

A hard sell should be defined by someone feeling uncomfortable or pressured to make a decision despite their wishes. A good sales person will get it done without that.

queenvictorina, I’m wondering if your comments about in home sales people in this business are intending to be insulting or simply ignorant. A competent commissioned sales person will make six figures plus many benefits. Top sellers are significantly more. All are able to live a comfortable lifestyle and virtually none go “door to door” as if they are selling vacuum cleaners or fundraiser Kringles. Frankly I find that respectable work regardless, but if you don’t that’s fine. If your income allows you to look down your nose at that, then accept my virtual high five for winning at life. You may now return to your warm lambs milk and leather bound books.

My income is way less than a high end sales person. My husband is a sales manager and previously worked in phone sales for commission. I have a lot of respect for salespeople because it's a difficult job that I'd be unbelievably terrible at.

However, I openly hold sleazy high pressure sales tactics (including the tactics used in replacement window sales) in contempt. I lose respect for salespeople and industries that use them and will take my business elsewhere.

I think some of my opinion might have come from ignorance. I did some reading about these sales tactics and found that they are very deliberate and quite effective. And I learned that window sales guys actually have to be pretty darn good at what they do because they are selling a really bad deal (if it was a good deal, would they have to be so sleazy and pushy?). The ones you have to call the cops on to expell from your property are probably the bad desperate ones.

Lets be clear, if i see someome is uncomfortable, angry, or simply not interested, its game over, i walk away. I never want someone to feel pressured in their own home.

however, if i sense they are interested and will lose my business to the next guy, i will offer incentives and a creative sales approach at that point.

I'd ignore the salesman's time based pricing. If the lowest quote he gave you works for you when you make your decision to go with his product, call and offer the job at that amount. The company makes money at that price point. If they want to make the money they'll accept the job. Time limits on a non unique item aren't logical. There's another one just like it. This is seen more in car sales. But you need to watch for add ons like whatever equates to vin etching, wheel locks, paint protection, fabric protection, extended warranties and GAP insurance in the door sales business. And , of course, nitrogen tire fill.

Dan the car comparison is really apt - the only time I bought from a dealer, I specifically chose one known locally for good quality used cars and reasonable no haggle prices. Well actually they did give me a discount for paying cash and trading in my old beast. They knew and I knew the car they were selling me was a good car at a reasonable price - not ridiculously low, but reasonable - and all they had to say was theres other people interested so you bet I was ready and willing to buy right the and there.

But you see - my willingness to buy wasnt becaise of the product or even the price so much as it was their reputation as being trustworthy and the sales guy was friendly, answered all my questions in a non-pushy way. Similarly, part of getting work done on my house is I need to have good communication - Im very detail oriented and Im sure they don't want me nit picking and micromanaging the installation, so in leiu of that, I just need to trust that the job will be done in a satisfactory way, they aren't going to botch it and then browbeat me into accepting something that's unacceptable (has happened to me before).

How do you measure trust - I don't know, its probably subjective. All I know is that I thought I had it until he started putting the screws on and discounting everything I said.

All I needed to know was is there a way I could get cost down so I could afford all three, and if not then it would have to be only 2 at this time. The answer I was looking for was either yes or no - not that he could give me a no-interest loan.

I am late to this thread, but am surprised no one has brought up one of the key factors to success, which is repeat business and referral business. These are almost like "freebies" because you didn't have to do any cold calling to get the job, so the upfront selling expenses are relatively lower. The customer is already enthusiastic, and less likely to look for competitive bids, either because s/he has already had a great experience with the contractor or because his/her friend/relative has.

All you have to do to get this bonus work is a good installation the first time. Not so hard, right?

I would bet there is a negative correlation between the company that goes for the high-pressure sales tactic of "sign now or it'll be $1000 more next week", and the quality of that company's work. So, not going for the repeat and referral business are they.

Largest companies in the home improvement market are almost universally hard call close type organizations.

Not arguing your point, but the facts don't echo your observation.

Dannirose- you have got to be joking!!! What kind of company would risk losing business by telling a customer to get more estimates? None ! Nice try with your tall tale.

Believe it or not, Carl, many a reputable contracting company will say exactly that.

I get that hard sales can be effective, but I'm another who will bounce you down my front steps with your hat in your hand if you try it.

Strong arm tactics work with uneducated consumers who can be scared into thinking that they're about to miss a great deal or that their home is about to disintegrate before their very eyes. (Probably most of them, sadly) Someone who's done there homework will not take the bait, and will take their business elsewhere. This is a smaller subset of the population, but it's largely the one you're addressing here.

This thread is being beaten to death. If you don’t want to do business with a company for the reasons listed then don’t. The apparent consensus in this thread however is not representative of the general population. For every person that indignantly states that these companies cannot earn their business, there are 100 others writing checks. Even the sleazy ones are wiping away the tears over lost business with crisp $100 bills . I don’t personally subscribe to these things despite how it may sound, but I also can’t blame other guys for doing what works—- BECAUSE IT WORKS!

Lets be clear, if i see someome is uncomfortable, angry, or simply not interested, its game over, i walk away. I never want someone to feel pressured in their own home.

That's not the vibe I'm getting from you.

How many people do you think say to themselves “hey, I’m going to sign on the dotted line for these windows with the first guy I meet”? Probably close to none.

Maybe, but the average American isn't so good with money.

If I decide I'm not knowledgeable about window prices or cabinet prices or whatever, I am very likely to move slower and to decide that I need multiple quotes /discussion with multiple companies before I make a decision. I always tell sales people up front exactly what I intend to do -- how else can they understand my goals and best help me?

I hope that I offended everyone here, if I missed anyone my apologies. Peace.

Huh?

What i mean is that when a woman tells me they arent buying anything on the first visit they usually do. Even those who claim to have been educated in sales, they still buy on the first visit. more so than men from my experience. They obviously realize they need and like what we are offering. Thats what it comes down to.

Good for you for closing so many sales. I don't claim to be educated in sales, but I am an educated consumer and want to know all my choices before I buy.

Here's an example on a small scale: I take a vitamin that I've been buying from Target -- about six months ago I bought these vitamins on a super sale, so I haven't purchased them lately. This afternoon I went out, and the 2-bottle pack had increased from $27 to $38. That's a big jump, so I checked Amazon on my phone. The 2-bottle pack was $26. WIN ... but I kept looking. Amazon offers another brand with the identical ingredients, which was $17 for an extra-large bottle that's the equivalent of three Target-sized bottles. WIN-WIN for me.

You're telling me that I should not use this same thought process when buying something larger such as windows?

Dannirose- you have got to be joking!!! What kind of company would risk losing business by telling a customer to get more estimates? None ! Nice try with your tall tale.

I'm not particularly interested in whether the company wants me to get other estimates or not. If it's a big ticket item, and I feel multiple estimates are appropriate, I am going to get multiple estimates.

Someone else compared this to car sales. I get it; if you leave the lot without making a sale, chances are you'll look elsewhere -- but that's the consumer's right.

Plenty of companies have told me to compare their offer with other companies -- but they usually qualify it, saying that I should be sure to compare apples-to-apples, perhaps being sure that the other company includes installation or that their warranty is better.

Agree. This website seems to have been taken over by a bunch of bitter women with no business acumen. Its actually weird.

I think you mean intelligent women who don't fall for your misogynistic strong arm techniques.

I think the women know what the f stands for?

Not sure how or why gender became an issue here, but I think both sides of this weird argument are wrong on that. Good sales guys follow their system regardless of who they they are talking to and they see no gender, age, color (except green). Don’t flatter yourself ms Pete. And Carl F, get off the woman thing. It’s not the 60’s anymore.

I'm not bitter, I'm wise.