A friend returned from Pismo Beach area a couple of weeks ago and she said the count down there is 13,000 overwintering. I don't know how this is with other years but she said they told her it was down. I still have two pupas hanging in my unheated hot house - it passive solar - and wonder if there is any chance they make it through the winter as pupas. The more I put in milkweed/habitat gardens the fewer buts we seem to have. Penny

Regarding Releasing Diseased Monarchs- The "email from Altizer" posted here four different times as Altizer's answers to the poster's questions, I have wondered each time I see this "email reply", what were the questions? And especially, in what context were the questions asked? Was it in the context of commercial butterfly breeding and the sending and releasing of butterflies to other parts of the country? Posted on Dec 16, 13 at 22:37, quoting : "Why would you release a wild naturally occurring OE ridden Monarch?" "Because it is a natural infection and not one that you created. Because a renown scientist, Dr. Sonia Altizer, gave me those instructions....." end of poster's quote.// Advocating for release of diseased Monarchs? Why promote endlessly the planting of Tropical milkweed when every expert stresses the importance of planting only NATIVE milkweeds, and all agree on the negative consequences of growing Tropical milkweed especially? Troubling also is the use of "naturally occurring" and also in the same sentence as 'releasing". HIV is naturally occurring too. Cancer is naturally occurring. Does that mean these diseases should be ignored as well? Human disease is researched to find out what caused the unnatural condition, there are reasons for disease. Disease is UNnatural. OE co-evolved with monarchs in the 1960's, after milkweeds had existed for many millions of years, and Monarchs had existed for how many years, a million? without OE. I would bet that mankind's messing around with nature has everything to do with this unnatural disease. Naturally occurring disease-what is the inference? That it is normal and part of nature? The following is what Dr. Sonia Altizer says in the published online article (I have linked below) about butterfly releasing: “If people are releasing infected monarchs in the spring [the height of the wedding season],” Altizer says, “when they’re naturally re-colonizing what would be otherwise clean breeding habitat, we could be ratcheting prevalence up artificially in the wild.” In 2007, Dr. Karen Oberhauser, a professor at the Univ. of Minnesota Dept. of Ecology and a monarch researcher, stopped the selling and sending of butterflies to classrooms in the U.S. because of the high prevalence of OE. I respect that she took this unpopular decision and faced the backlash from the Butterfly Breeders Assoc. (IBBA). The link below has a lot of useful information and quotes statements and opinions from various Monarch experts throughout the country including Altizer Chip Taylor of Monarch Watch is quoted in the article: ..." that there are many unanswered questions and that under no conditions should diseased monarchs be released into the wild." He also questioned years ago in a newsletter the genetic impact of monarch release out of their native habitat. These very questions have led to calls for a moratorium on butterfly releases." By the way, in the "email", there was no releasing option for my scenario: Indoor reared eggs and very young instars from the wild, using very thorough disinfecting measures of their food, in handling, and of any container. Altizer says in the article I linked below, that "a caterpillar with one spore can emerge with a MILLION spores". She is against the releasing of diseased butterflies. OE screening can't be done with the naked eye. Most of my Dec. 2013 Monarchs emerged beautiful and vibrant, but only 2 tested OE free. Most were heavily infested with OE, appearances are deceptive. A microscope is needed. I noticed also that many of my December emergees had large fore-wings as I've seen in photos of Eastern Monarchs, unlike the smaller fore-wings of Western Monarchs. The infected ones I didn't release, out of love for the species, it was hard. It's one thing to have a lot of knowledge on a subject. It's another thing to have love that goes along with the knowledge. Just as in religion, knowledge without love is dangerous and worthless. There is also deliberate misuse of and distortion of knowledge-that's the worst. My apologies to Martha. This was supposed to be a positive ideas thread to help the Monarch plight. It turned into a Tropical Milkweed Promotion and anti-euthanizing of diseased Monarchs thread and debate. I couldn't rest easy with false and misleading things being posted THAT had potential to harm the monarch population.Yes I got sucked in, but not for my pleasure, ego, or wallet, but out of true concern and love for monarchs. Here is a link that might be useful: All Aflutter--The Flap Over the Mail Order Butterfly Industry

Dfscudder, with the introduction of GMO crops engineered to be resistant to the herbicide glyphosate, farmers can now apply the herbicide to their fields throughout the growing season. This practice eliminates all plants other than the GMO crop, including milkweed, that used to provide habitat for numerous insects. Carrying it one step further, those insects in turn provided food for birds. No insects - no birds; even seed-eating birds need insects to feed their young; insects make up about 90% of the young birds' diet. Therefore, many of our agricultural areas are now virtual deserts. Adding to the damage, surveys have shown that a great many farmers also apply herbicide well beyond the perimeter of their fields, eliminating still more habitat. Another product under great suspicion for adding to the problem is the new class of pesticides call neonicotinoids, or "neonics" for short. These are systemic and are taken up into the tissues of the plant, delivering a dose of poison to any insect that feeds upon it. Initially it was maintained that the material was only taken into the stems and leaves, but now it seems that it is, in fact, translocated to the pollen and nectar as well. Neonics seem to be quite persistent; rather than breaking down quickly, they can remain present and toxic in plant tissues for many months. Certainly there are other problems facing the monarchs: loss of habitat in their overwintering sites, diseases like OE, nuclear polyhedrosis virus, and pseudomonas bacteria, also parasitic insects like tachinid flies and braconid wasps, as well as unfavorable weather, particularly during migrating season. Cool, wet weather in spring makes their northward journey more difficult, and dry summers can leave them with precious few nectaring plants on their southward journey in late summer/early autumn. Any one or two of these challenges probably would not be insurmountable, but it seems the monarch is facing the proverbial "perfect storm" of multiple challenges to its survival.

Okay, Dawn and Jay, you must really want me to get on my soapbox now, and you know I cannot miss the opportunity, right? This is nothing new, for one thing. Especially in Mexico, where a few years ago, the Mexican government imposed laws against illegal logging in the Monarch's overwintering habitat, in the Michoacan area of Mexico. However, the illegal logging continues and laws have not been enforced pursuant to the terms of the agreement with the US. It's obviously not a priority for the Mexican government. I have attached a link to maps that reflect the extraordinary decline and devastation of overwintering habitat between March 2004 and February 2008. The yellow dots indicate the locations of overwintering Monarchs, and the blue lines in the right photo indicate how much deforestation has occured in 4 years due to illegal logging. If you hover your cursor on maps you can enlarge them for a better view. It is amazing. I am afraid to see the map for 2009. Chip Taylor at KU Monarch Watch has certainly done a magnificant job in bringing the situation to light by instituting the Monarch Watch program, of which I have been a member for 5 years how. To qualify as a Monarch Waystation is so simple, just grow some milkweed for the Monarchs and some strong nectar plants for the (Helianthus, Verbesinas are excellent), complete an application and pay a one time membership fee of $25 to further research. A lot of people tag their Monarchs when they emerge from the chrysalids which helps to track them. In Mexico, the ones that die are collected on the forest floor by the local people there who are paid $5 per tagged butterfly. Note: I grow about three different species of milkweed and am adding more this spring. It is happening not just in Mexico, but in the US as well. As we expand our farming (BT Corn and such) and commercial development, destruction of wetlands, and so on and so forth, we are in the process of eliminating those very ecosystems that support native milkweeds and the nectar plants they thrive on. So, I try to do my part to provide some small part of land devoted to the Monarch butterfly, hand raising the caterpillars and releasing these beautiful butterflies for their journey North and South. Oklahoma is a MAJOR migrating thoroughfare for them, and yes, Dawn, they flew west of us this year, but folks in western Oklahoma were probably very surprised and pleased to see them. I still had significant 2009 numbers in my yard chowing down on the milkweed. Some might not know that the California Monarchs migrate only as far as very southern California on the eucalyptus trees for the winter. But these numbers are much smaller than the migrating Monarchs seen east of the Rockies and up into Canada. It is am amazing journey they make and I hope to continue to see them make it. Susan Here is a link that might be useful:...