“I’d never spoken about it in public"

MissMyGardens

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/04/domestic-violence-abuse-patrick-stewart-david-challen-hart-brothers


'It's a man's problem': Patrick Stewart and the man fighting to end domestic violence"


"Stewart, David Challen and the Hart brothers know the devastation abuse can wreak – and are challenging the idea that it is a women’s issue"


Found this thought provoking reminder this effects everyone in experience and highlighted a perspective we maybe don't think about enough.


"The US educator and speaker Jackson Katz has made this message his life’s work. The author of The Macho Paradox, Katz teaches the “bystander approach”, in which communities are encouraged to take ownership of the problem of relationship abuse and men are encouraged to challenge sexist comments and unacceptable behaviour. His programme has been delivered in the military and at colleges, sports teams and businesses across the US."


“Five years on, I still get emails about that talk, mainly from women, saying: ‘Oh my God, I’ve never heard a man saying this,’” says Katz, who began studying domestic violence as a 19-year-old student journalist covering a campaign for better lighting on campus. “Better lighting – such a basic safety intervention,” he says. “I was impressed by the women’s campaigning – their leadership was incredible even back then – but I remember thinking: ‘Why is it only women here?’ Women were doing all the work, creating the battered-women’s movement, the rape-crisis movement. It seemed obvious that the missing piece was men’s activism, men’s accountability.

“When people ask why I do this, they always assume I must have some kind of personal story,” Katz continues. “My response is that if a personal story was all it took for a man to speak out on domestic abuse, we’d have millions of male voices – fathers, sons, friends and partners of women who’ve experienced abuse. But that hasn’t happened. So, the bigger question is: why haven’t more men come forward? What are the reasons, in 2018, that this hasn’t become a mass movement among men?”


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Damn good question!

And I think the answer is way more complicated than a quick reply might cover, but I suspect it has a lot to do with culture, and that it is simply not on a lot of men's radar as something they believe they can change...?

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ohiomom

‘Why is it only women here?’

Because 85% of domestic abuse victims are women.

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Pidge

Yes, and that suggests that 85% of those who abuse women are probably men (yes, I know that probably some women are abused by other women). Thus it really is a man's problem insofar as they are ones who need to make changes in their behavior.

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kaych

why haven’t more men come forward?

I'd have to say one of the reasons is that as a whole men find it harder to identify with emotional issues & how they affect others.

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ohiomom

"men find it harder to identify with emotional issues & how they affect others"

Yes I am sure my abuser/s had difficulty identifying with their emotional issues ... I am one of the fortunate ones, I survived. We just had another woman murdered by her husband in front of her children here in the city by the lake.

Poor little fragile man unable to deal with emotions.

Excuse me while I throw up.


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Olychick

Why haven't men taken the lead on this? Because they don't have to.

Women waited and suffered forever for society (read gov't - police, courts and educational, cultural and religious institutions) to listen to us about the effects of violence and the lack of services for women survivors - those of us who did survive; the dead can't speak. When it became apparent that nothing was going to change with men in the power positions in all those arenas, the grass roots rape relief and domestic violence movement was started. Women helping women. Slowly, we made inroads, procured funding, built shelters, provided other services and made small steps toward change.

But it's still woefully inadequate because MEN continue to abuse women, rape women and kill women. Until it becomes a men's problem, because only they can stop hitting women, raping women and killing women, nothing women are able to do is going to change the outcomes. But perhaps when women hold all the institutional power, there could also be sweeping changes in many areas, including violence against women and children.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

On top of the men sticking together, are already giving up too much power over to women, blah blah culture angle, you have the ones that simplify it to "Well, why doesn't she just leave?" victim blaming and the ones that auto-sympathy side with the men that it must have been deserved. There is the apathy of not caring because it does not affect them. And on and on. By the time they go through those ever narrowing tunnels, you have only a few men willing to even talk about it. They look at each other and think someone else should go first, or there are not enough of us to rock this boat. So they go home.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I don't think it would dilute the message that abuse is wrong to admit that men can suffer from abuse as well. Women being held to the same standards we want for men will not hurt women. Embracing a whole approach that it is not OK for anyone to do this to anyone else covers both.

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MissMyGardens

My heart goes out to each of you who has experienced domestic violence in any way. I apologize if introducing this subject caused unnecessary pain for any of you.

The things you've said are what was behind my being struck by the article. It's striking of someone like Patrick Stewart to bring still much needed attention and advocacy to it. Male and female children in these awful situations are affected sometimes for life. It's not a stretch to say boys can either grow up to continue a pattern of behavior because they haven't learned any other way to act or they've found support and education that propels them to choose not to continue a pattern in later relationships.

I just looked up status of our American Violence Against Women Act. I don't like that it's something which has to come up for renewal as if the laws and efforts are going to be found not needed at some magical date!

The following things really get me angry and I've taken note of legislators who did NOT support even the first iteration of the law let alone those who opposed proposed changes to it as time went on:

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2018/10/vawa-at-risk-of-lapsing/

"Since 1994, the act was reauthorized in 2000, 2005 and 2013. The law expired for two years, from 2011 to 2013, when conservative Republicans objected to new provisions. But, during that lapsed period, VAWA programs continued to receive funding, since the budgeting process for the relevant programs covered under the law is separate from reauthorization.

When VAWA was up for reauthorization in 2011, Republican lawmakers were against extending protections to immigrants, Native American women and the LGBTQ community.

Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) sponsored the expanded version, which was eventually passed in 2013. Senators Mike Crapo (R-ID), Susan Collins (R-ME) and Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) were among the Republicans who co-sponsored the bill, but it was met with resistance from a handful of notable Republican lawmakers.

Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA), who, at the time, was the senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, was against the new provisions and offered a stripped-down version that failed in the Senate. Grassley accused the added provisions of being too political and losing focus on helping victims.

Of those in office in 2013 who are currently on the Senate Judiciary Committee, only the Democrats, Sen. Jeff Flake (R-AZ) and Crapo voted in favor of reauthorization.

In 1994, Grassley, the current chairman of the committee, and Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT), a committee member, also voted against the original legislation. Both senators were on the judiciary committee during the Hill and Thomas hearings in 1991. The other remaining members of the committee who were in office in 2013 voted against its reauthorization.

In 2012, Murkowski said the Republican Party was at risk of being painted as “antiwoman” if members didn’t support the legislation.

President Barack Obama signed the 2013 version. VAWA now grants temporary visas to undocumented immigrants who are victims of domestic violence, extends protections to Native American women and includes domestic violence cases for LGBTQ couples. The bill also expanded the definition of violence against women to include stalking."

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/us/politics/violence-against-women-act-divides-senate.html

Why am I not surprised:

“I favor the Violence Against Women Act and have supported it at various points over the years, but there are matters put on that bill that almost seem to invite opposition,” said Senator Jeff Sessions, Republican of Alabama, who opposed the latest version last month in the Judiciary Committee. “You think that’s possible? You think they might have put things in there we couldn’t support that maybe then they could accuse you of not being supportive of fighting violence against women?”

The legislation would continue existing grant programs to local law enforcement and battered women shelters, but would expand efforts to reach Indian tribes and rural areas. It would increase the availability of free legal assistance to victims of domestic violence, extend the definition of violence against women to include stalking, and provide training for civil and criminal court personnel to deal with families with a history of violence. It would also allow more battered illegal immigrants to claim temporary visas, and would include same-sex couples in programs for domestic violence.

Republicans say the measure, under the cloak of battered women, unnecessarily expands immigration avenues by creating new definitions for immigrant victims to claim battery. More important, they say, it fails to put in safeguards to ensure that domestic violence grants are being well spent. It also dilutes the focus on domestic violence by expanding protections to new groups, like same-sex couples, they say."

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marquest(PA zone 6)

It is our society positions. Men are taught early "be strong" don't cry and push your feelings down. For to many years our power structure has been men. Let's not forget this is even strengthen in religion the position of the man vs women.

Men are doing what they are trained, believe, psychological difference and training.


Of course there are exceptions. Just like some people will kill others will not but there are so many variables that support why men or women will do what they do.


https://www.2knowmyself.com/psychological_differences_between_men_and_women

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MissMyGardens

marquest "Men are taught early "be strong" don't cry and push your feelings down."


A male ex-relative by marriage was punched in the face repeatedly by his father if he cried or was afraid. I understood and hurt for his childhood abuse but couldn't ever excuse his later behavior towards his wife, son and daughter. Son is gone to suicide and daughter may be forever lost to drugs and mental health issues. My heart will always ache over the prices paid.


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blfenton

Women got the vote in 1920, the same year that it became illegal to beat one's wife. A law actually had to be created to say it was illegal for a man to hit a women, and it hasn't even been 100 years. Domestic violence only hit the mainstream and was unveiled and brought out into the open during the 1970's as part of the Women's Movement.

Abuse is often handed down through generations - my dad did it so it must be okay. What they don't see is - my mom is hurt because my dad hit her and that's wrong. What can also happen is that daughters view that as normal and wind up in abusive relationships. (It's how my two siblings married alcoholics - following in good old dad's footsteps).

How to get men involved in the message is beyond me. I have no idea. Would it be nice, of course it would be and perhaps it starts with the younger generation.

ETA - my siblings married alcoholics believing that was normal in a marriage as daughters who see abuse and view it as normal may do. My siblings weren't and aren't alcoholics. sorry for any confusion.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

MissMyGardens

marquest "Men are taught early "be strong" don't cry and push your feelings down."

==================

Yeah I know some of the reasons but like you I cannot excuse the actions. But there are so many reasons it is going to take another 100 yrs of realigning thinking and actions. But just as we have murder we will have abuse.

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maifleur01

There are also the social constraints that we are taught from childhood. You do not step forward and stop fighting verbal or otherwise. If you see an argument between two people you ignore because it is none of your business. We are taught early on that it is not polite for us to correct others. A few strong people may if they see physical harm coming to someone but they also know that they are the ones more likely to be condemned . In talking in a group the behavior may be discussed and condemned but a person's behavior will seldom be. If the person the group is actually talking about asked it is them it will be strongly denied.


Beyond the idea of gays bashing each other there is the thing that women do abuse men.

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dockside_gw

Domestic violence only hit the mainstream and was unveiled and brought
out into the open during the 1970's as part of the Women's Movement.

In 1977, I was a participant in a study, as an assignment in a Cultural Anthropology class, in violence against women. My job was to investigate and report on how domestic violence is handled by local police departments. To begin, I decided to read as much that had been written about the subject for background. I found all of TWO ((that's right 2) books in the libraries of the U of MN, and the Minneapolis public library, one published in England. I still remember the title of that book, "Be Quiet, the Neighbors Might Hear."

So, we women have made some progress in the past 40 years. But, it will probably take another 100 years as Marquest stated above, before women will not have to fear their partners. If that ever happens.



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Olychick

After 40 years of work in the field of Domestic Violence and Rape prevention, I feel it is a false equivalency to always, always, always invoke the "men are victims, too." Of course, they are. And the vast majority of the times it is at the hands of other men.

Women can and do abuse, but the overall societal attitudes that allow women to be victimized at the hands of men are not prevalent toward males. And, it has been shown that the greatest number of cases where women are violent toward men are self defense/survival acts, where women see no other way out for them or their children. And, yes, you can post anecdotal cases where that's not true, but they are a very small minority of cases.

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MissMyGardens

Olychick "After 40 years of work in the field of Domestic Violence and Rape prevention, I feel it is a false equivalency to always, always, always invoke the "men are victims, too."


Olychick, I can't imagine the fortitude and generosity of spirit it takes to do that work. I have great respect for all you have done and the lives in which you made a difference. Brava...

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maifleur01

Olychick it was one of my aunts that was a spousal abuser to most of her husbands. I think she had five. I know of at least one other case. I was not invoking anything just stating a fact as I know it. While rare it does happen your comment is condescending toward the men that it does happen to even though women do make up the biggest number of abused. It also hides that it does happen and prevents the men like the women who are abused from coming forward and escaping.

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bleusblue2

I remember the days when we talked about other women saying "She keeps going back to him. She must enjoy it." It's true. Things are better today.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

Bleusble2 I had a neighbor like that. The neighborhood would intervene there were times she told us to leave them alone there were times they would not open the door and if we heard her screaming we called the police. She would send the police away. Finally she left and never came back but it was at least 3 yrs.

He was an Attorney they appeared to have a financially good life but you never know what people have in their bank account from the outside. They had 2 children. I know they say many times women do not leave because of the money.

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Olychick

They may be prevented from leaving because their abuser has control of the money (and everything else). She's not staying and being abused for the $. He has the $ for a lawyer and threatens her that he'll get custody of the kids if she tries to leave, and often he does because she has no $ to fight him - even though she's usually the primary caretaker.

Family law attorneys do not take cases without a substantial retainer. Legal aid offices often prioritize Domestic Violence family law cases, but the number of cases they can take is a drop in the bucket of the need.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

Olychick, That was what I meant about the money. They are unable to leave because they do not have the money to leave. Nothing to care for themselves and the children is the first need,

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jillinnj

We've seen comments right here on HT claiming men were not masculine enough because they support the #metoo movement, or perform chores historically done by woman.

Unfortunately, there is still a segment of our population that doesn't understand what being a real man is.

It's good to see prominent men speaking out. It's about time. Breaking the cycle is what will hopefully put an end to this.

---

What the heck is wrong with Republicans?? These comments in the OP:

When VAWA was up for reauthorization in 2011, Republican lawmakers were against extending protections to immigrants, Native American women and the LGBTQ community.

and

It also dilutes the focus on domestic violence by expanding protections to new groups, like same-sex couples, they say."

make me so angry! Domestic violence can't happen in a same-sex couple??? WTF???? And how dare we protect immigrants or Native Americans or LGBTQ people???? And then people tell us right here on HT that it's the Republicans that are for equal rights! And they expect to be taken seriously!

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elvis

jillinnj

We've seen comments right here on HT claiming men were not masculine enough because they support the #metoo movement, or perform chores historically done by woman.

Well, that's an...untruth. Being polite here.

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Ziemia(6a)

blf: "Women got the vote in 1920, the same year that it became illegal to beat one's wife. A law actually had to be created to say it was illegal for a man to hit a women, and it hasn't even been 100 years. "

I had not known the part about making wife beating illegal. TY

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Ziemia(6a)

PS: I have read complaints here (by some who support Trump) that men have become feminized due to the call *to view women as equals and *to view marriage as a union of equals and *to view household responsibilities as something to be shared and negotiated.

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jillinnj

Well, that's an...untruth.

Once again, just because you didn't read it (or more likely ignored it because it was said by someone you agree with) doesn't mean it didn't exist.


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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

My husband's father, an officer in the Navy, was repeatedly physically attacked by his wife, who was an alcoholic. I think it was kept hidden so as not to jeopardize his career. By some miracle my husband grew up to be a wonderful and gentle man, who sees women completely as equals and is thrilled that so many women have won political victories. I have no answer as to why women stay in abusive relationships, and can only hope that this will change. I think the financial power that men still hold in many marriages does play a role.

Edited: I asked my husband if it was okay to mention him here, and he said I could only mention him on Hot Topics if I said he was hot!! He does keep me laughing....

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Rita / Bring Back Sophie 4 Real

The ABC show 20-20 did a piece on domestic abuse against men over a decade ago. It's not online, so no link sadly.

As for why women stay in abusive relationships, it's not just financial. There are still women who believe they personal worth is derived from their marriage.

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bleusblue2

Rita / Bring Back Sophie 4 Real said:

As for why women stay in abusive relationships, it's not just financial. There are still women who believe they personal worth is derived from their marriage.

~~~~

yes, that's what we didn't realise back when we said that the woman who stays "must like it." It's so horrible to think of but now I remember women I worked with who were certainly abused, I could have told by their demeanor if I'd been more aware. They were brainwashed.

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artemis_ma

I think it is right if and when men join the #MeToo movement. A few days ago I watched a horrific video on YouTube about a woman, who at least at the time the video was published is/was the only woman in Australia on Life without Parole. She murdered her boyfriend, knifing him to death, and cooked parts of him. He'd admitted the day before he was killed, that he was scared of her. But it is possibly harder for a guy to admit being afraid of a woman than the other way around. So... he didn't actually leave.

I totally understand #MeToo being something that is important no matter the gender.

(Didn't sleep well after that one.)

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marquest(PA zone 6)

WOW that could cause many some sleepless nights.


I had a friend that was abused as a child and she was a male abuser. We do need to remember abuse happens to both sexes.

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Iowacommute

Another woman and I became fast friends when we started a new job at the same time. After spending some time with her and her husband she started opening up about the things he would say and do to her. He had so many rules and treated her like a child down to what she could and could not eat and wear. She asked me how much of that behavior my husband followed and was surprised when I told her none. She then started telling me of the emotional and physical abuse. I helped her and her children get out of that situation. It took two years, a restraining order on my part, and a year long house stay for our guests but my friend is happily remarried now to a great guy. My friend told me her ex blamed me for every bit of their break up and would never forgive me. I said "My pleasure."

Then there is the Springfield Missouri police department throwing away untested rape kits. Women who were assaulted, humiliated again for questioning and testing are then subjected to this nonsense, and in the bible belt no less. Some men do not respect or trust women enough to even support them through an ordeal. I am happy some national spotlight has shown on the inept police chief.


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marquest(PA zone 6)

Iowacommute, that was so nice of you. I tried it with a friend. She went back to the abuser. She came running to my home with her two children in the middle of the night. She lived three blocks from me. He showed up at my door 3 dys later by following the kids from the school bus. She refused to come home. But 3 wks later I came home from work and she had left a note telling me she went back. She eventually did leave for good 2 yrs later after her kids graduated HS. He never hit her he terrorized her, cut her hair in her sleep, punish her by hiding things she needed when she did not obey him. Mental abuse.

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