I always use plant snipets (I have a small garden, hack them up by hand or with lawn mower) for mulching, so there is always too little to start a compost.

I keep reading about soil and microbes, there is an excellent book: teaming with microbes. which describes interesting details about the soil life.

so

IMO

fresh compost on top of pine mulch (or any mulch) is a waste, because the usefull microbes will die.

How about:

-covering the perennial bed with plants so there are no gaps or only in the beginning

-use pine/bark for shrubs

can you get shredded hemp stems at a feed store? they are used for bedding in horse boxes and excellent for perennials/ herbacious plants. (about 1-2 inches work IME)

regarding to the book, using "brown material" like dead leaves, bark, straw etc encourages fungi (in general beneficial) which is great for perenials and shrubs n trees

using "green" mulch like grass clippings, with lots of starches/sugars is great for bacteria which are good for your veggie bed...

go figure.

---

and what about if you spread compost and put other mulch on top? you probably can re-stock when the layer is worn off, perhaps not every year.

some German Plant persons advice strongly against using pine bark or wood chips in perennial beds as the products from breaking down could slow them down, not the N-lock up but things like tannin.

don`t know, didn`t test it myself

I guess if you have non-fussy perennials that is not a problem,

personall I would go hor hemp bedding between the perennials, and spread it on top the compost

I just grabbed the link from a web search

about hemp horse bedding

I used it again this season in a patchy perennial bed, I am re-editing it right now, dug everything up, the hemp bits were little clumps with mycels through them with a nice earthy smell...

(edited for some typos)

In my world, 'mulch' is an activity (verb), not a specific product (noun). Maybe a bit too nit-picky but it conveys the notion that you can mulch with anything you like and if it is an organically sourced product, it will all do pretty much the same thing.

With that as a preface, I do not care for wood based mulches in a perennial garden. I dislike the texture and apperance and because perennial beds tend to get 'worked' or cultivated more frequently than does a shrub border, there is always the issue of the wood product getting incorporated into the soil and subsequently causing N unavailability. So I mulch with compost. It offers all the same mulching qualities as any other type of mulch product - weed suppression, moisture retention, temperature moderation - but it also adds more to the soil in terms of enhancing structure and bumping up fertility. And the look of a thick, black carpet of a rich compost around my perennials is just so much better than a coarse layer of bark or wood chips!!

I have used compost as my primary mulch product all my gardening life. I can't make enough compost to satisfy my needs but purchased bulk compost is readily available and is of uniformly high quality in my area. And I apply annually as one would with any other mulch product. Weeds for me have never been a big issue and no mulch will prevent them completely anyway but they are typically very easy to remove from the compost by pulling or hoeing. And I have never had to supplement with any fertilizer when using the compost as mulch.

But there are many gardeners who follow a process similar to what you contemplate.....lay the compost first and then mulch with a wood based product. I don't know how easy it is to add more compost going forward.....I guess one could just continue the layering process, Or rake the wood mulch away before adding more compost and then raking it back. Too much work for me!!

The short answer to your question is that there is no right or wrong process to follow. Do what you prefer or what is easiest for you. Any organic mulch application is better than no mulch application!!

In my climate, shredded bark decomposes quickly. A two inch layer applied this fall would need replenishment in spring.

to continue to define the words we use ... as you note.. you dont compost over a decorative mulch .... it sort of defeats the purpose ... and it would not be cost efficient ....

one might say.. one is a soil amendment [compost] and the other is a weed suppressor .. both can help maintain soil moisture ...

i dont really see mulching to reduce the labor of weed pulling ... if you have to rake it up to put compost under it ... lol ... think about that ... lol ... and putting compost on top ... is just giving weed seed somewhere to germinate ....

couple ideas ....

many weed seeds.. need sun to germ ... as such ... they tend to do so in bare areas ... and that is where you could focus mulch .. there is no rule that it must cover the whole bed ... this is also why.. later in the season .. there are that many weeds under favored plants as they shade the soil ... if you bifurcate the areas .. you could still throw some compost around the plants in spring ... and dont worry about composting under the mulch ... which eventually will break down to compost anyway ....

also ... again .. the whole garden need not be uniform .... pick and choose which beds in which you will invest in mulch .... and not others ... e.g. i would not mulch a veg patch ... as you are always disturbing the soil every year ... and it wouldl be a PIA to always be removing mulch ... etc ...

finally ... yeah right.. ... after your decades of gardening .. i dont really know why you need to compost .. i am sure your soil is better than most ... of course.. if you produce it.. you need to figure out how to get rid or use it .... just something to contemplate ...

as to the product you are looking at.. can you link us ... some is not worth the investment .... and i seem to think pine is such ... it breaks down too fast .. and the finer the material.. the faster it turns into compost ... i used to use cedar chunks ... with its base longevity ....

ken

many of the longer lived mulches are actually a bark product ... as in.. pine bark ..

perhaps you are looking at shredded pine BARK?

ken

"one might say.. one is a soil amendment [compost] and the other is a weed suppressor .. both can help maintain soil moisture ..."

If you want to get into definitions, a mulch is anything applied as a top dressing - anything!! It is how one uses the product that differentiates between a 'mulch' or a 'soil amendment'. If incorporated into the soil itself, then bark mulch, wood chips, sawdust or any other wood based product is a soil amendment. And they are often recommended for this purpose to lighten heavy clay soils. And if applied as a topdressing, then compost is a mulch!

sure you can spread compost on top of mulch. the rain will wash it down. but if the soil has been composted enough times you don't really need compost, just a little leaking at the base of the plants every now and again.

First of all, I am 100% with GardenGal - mulch is not a specific product, like compost is. Anything you use to prevent weeds and hold moisture in the summer and insulate in the winter is "mulch". That could be wood or grass cuttings or rubber, peanut shells, rocks or shredded paper.

What makes a good mulch? Take a walk in the woods and look at the ground and you will see that in nature mulch and compost are very much connected. Plants ward off competition from weeds by depositing their own mulch on the ground of leaves, twigs and wood. Bacteria and fungus break these materials down to compost which replenish the soil.

So I think that answers one of your questions - where does the compost go? The answer is that if the mulch is breaking down, then the compost is already on the bottom. You don't need to add any more. Nature has done that for you. The only thing you need to do is add more raw mulch material on the top to compensate for last seasons now decomposed matter. In addition to its water retention and weed shielding duties, an organic much like bark or leaves is also a slow moving compost pile.

My favorite mulch, especially this time of year, is shredded leaves. Especially if they've been picked up with your lawn mower and have some grass cuttings mixed in - they are one of the most valuable products to come out of your property. If you have them, use them. If you can get them, use them. Unfortunately, if you don't live in a place with cold winters and deciduous trees, then the only thing you can do is dream of piles of leaves slowly turning in to a gardener's black gold: leaf mold.

Rouge - I’m surprised you have a weed problem significant enough to consider mulching as a solution.... Your garden is quite densely planted as I remember. Here, dense plantings are my mulch - and my compost too! - as they provide the ‘no bare ground’ situation that helps control weeds. I leave as much (undiseased) dead foliage and fallen leaves to ‘compost in place’ as possible. (Removing it all to a compost heap and then moving it back again once it reaches the ‘finished compost’ stage is too much work for me!) I do use fine shredded pine bark mulch on the paths every couple of years - to give them a uniform appearance, and help reduce weed germination by covering bare ground. As an experiment this year we did not remulch the paths. We did get more weeds on the paths, but most were easily removed while walking around the garden. The north alley path - which tends to be quite moist - was the worst for weeds so I might limit mulching in the future to just that path.

So, my advice would be to consider closely where and why you’re getting weeds and consider what other alternatives may be effective in minimizing them.

P.S. we never fertilize garden beds.... Sometimes pots get some fertilizer and some heavy-blooming clematises get some fertilizer in spring - if I don’t forget (and I forget often!) The soil here is heavy clay but it has improved a lot over the years in the gardened areas.

Woodyoak has an excellent point there

what kind of weeds are we talking about, annuals?

If so, that means you use some kind of hoe between the perennials

and if it is nasty, perennial weed, mulching is useless.

perhaps you should check your maintenance regime as well and aim for an well covered, undisturbed top soil layer.

and ditto to most of the above, if you use organic mulch often, fertilizer is not required any longer

there is always the issue of the wood product getting incorporated into the soil and subsequently causing N unavailability.

It is my understanding that this is not an issue if the "wood product" is on the surface (as compared to being 'tilled' into the soil).

I guess one could just continue the layering process, Or rake the wood mulch away before adding more compost and then raking it back. Too much work for me!!

Ah that is what was looking for i.e. the "nuts and bolts" of what might be involved in incorporating both "mulch" and homemade compost.

after your decades of gardening ..

Actually I am still a 'spring chicken' with respect to gardening experience. This is my 10th year of loving perennial gardening.

i dont really know why you need to compost

Ken as I know you are one of the esteemed members of this forum, I am shocked as what you said above is heresy!

One can (almost) never have too much compost and I think our home production of garden ready compost using kitchen waste, leaves and grass clippings is the right thing to do.

also ... again .. the whole garden need not be uniform .... pick and choose which beds in which you will invest in mulch .... and not others ...

An excellent idea 'Ken'.

mulch is not a specific product,

In fact I was referencing a specific product (called SPM by the company) whose web link I intended to include in my original post but somehow didn't appear.

I will try again:

SPM

The company describes it this way:

• Shredded pine mulch
• Pine bark containing greater than 75% bark fiber and less than 25% wood fiber
• Fresh aroma, red to rusty brown colour with minimal composted bark fiber present

"there is always the issue of the wood product getting incorporated into the soil and subsequently causing N unavailability.

It is my understanding that this is not an issue if the "wood product" is on the surface (as compared to being 'tilled' into the soil)."

Of course this is true :-) However, my point was that in a perennial border - because of the almost constant moving/digging/dividing and new plantng that goes on - it is virtually impossible for the wood mulch product NOT to become incorporated into the soil!! And for the most part, many perennials tend to have very surface oriented root systems compared to woody trees and shrubs and I have seen wood based mulches affect their growth in a way the compost mulch does not.

btw, the fertility of a garden soil is not a fixed sitation. It will fluctuate over time as the nutrients are depleted by the plantings. So one needs to replenish these nutrients periodically and a rich organic mulch - like compost - is the best way to do so. Or fertilize (I realize that applying any fertilizer to a garden ever is an anathema to Ken but it IS often quite necessary!!).

what kind of weeds are we talking about, annuals?

If so, that means you use some kind of hoe between the perennials

I hope my original post didn't give the impression that I don't weed...that would be embarrassing. I just want to weed (much) less.

if you use organic mulch often, fertilizer is not required any longer

That describes our situation as well. We use "homemade" compost to supplement our existing soil and use store bought fertilizer only for the container plants.

Mulches and compost are both forms of organic matter to add to the soil. Compost is a predigested material that can be used both as a soil amendment and a mulch if desired. Mulches can range from shredded leaves to wood chips to bark and if raw (ie, not predigested) should only be applied to the surface and not worked into the soil as a soil amendment.

Much recent research has shown that mulches less than 4 inches thick are not very effective at doing what mulches are expected to do, 1. aid in moisture retention, 2. aid in unwanted plant growth suppression, 3. aid in moderating soil temperature, and 4. aid in adding organic matter to soils.

Why don't you use leaves? This is the time of the year to collect them, and they are F-R-E-E. Best mulch out there for giving both a "finished" look and keeping down weeds IMO. I have used plenty of wood product mulches over the years, too -- they work fine but are not cost effective, and yes they do need replenishing, frequency depending on how thick you lay it; either way, it gets $$$ to use wood mulches, although getting a bulk delivery will keep the cost down at least somewhat.

Mulches can range from shredded leaves to wood chips to bark and if raw (ie, not predigested) should only be applied to the surface and not worked into the soil as a soil amendment.

kimmq, as written in a previous post the actual mulch I am considering is pine based, described by the company as "....shredded pine mulch; pine bark containing greater than 75% bark fiber and less than 25% wood fiber...."

My original questions was concerning the technique to apply our family's homemade "predigested material" to the garden once 4" of the pine based mulch is present.

Why don't you use leaves?

mxk3, that is for sure a good suggestion.

My experience with using leaves as a wide spread mulch, especially this time of year, is that they are too easily blown out of the garden and onto the lawn.

(Instead we use the collected shredded leaves as the brown material to add to our compost throughout the year).

perhaps you are looking at shredded pine BARK?

This exactly 'Ken'.

If you shred the leaves, they stay put relatively well. If you don't, yes they will blow all over unless they wet, but when they eventually dry out again, they start blowing away again. This time of the year, though, if you put the unshredded leaves down on a calm day soon before rain or snow is expected, it should work out just fine -- by the time they'll actually dry out again in the spring, they will have started to break down and will likely stay put. Or, put them into lawn bags and store them over winter, or make a gigantic pile of leaves in something like a chicken wire pen and let them start to decompose over fall/winter - you'll have beautiful leaf mold before you know it.

If you're going to use compost under a wood-based mulch, you can manage it the two ways suggested: scrape the wood aside, lay down your compost, and replace the wood or lay them both down annually, the compost on the bottom.

I'm in the Gardengal court---the best mulch and the most attractive mulch is either compost or leaf mould. I often place a short-lived newspaper layer under my compost mulch.

I dislike the look of wood product mulch except on garden paths where necessity makes the look palatable.

"Mulches can range from shredded leaves to wood chips to bark and if raw (ie, not predigested) should only be applied to the surface and not worked into the soil as a soil amendment."

Nonsense!! Any organic mulches - "predigested" or not - can be used as a soil amendment. And frequently are. If applied as a topdressing, then they are considered a mulch. If incorporated into the soil, then they are considered a soil amendment.

My daughter in Or uses mint compost, looks and smells great.

Hey guys and gals, with all the feedback, you have convinced me to go with shredded leaves and compost for top-dressing/mulch. Thanks for taking the time to post...it helped lots.

Kimmq do you have a reference for that 4"? I have seen people on forums say 4" or more, while my local extension says 3-4" max and more will hurt oxygen and water exchange with the soil. I use really thick layers to start new beds and 2-3" on existing beds.

This time of the year, though, if you put the unshredded leaves down on a calm day soon before rain or snow is expected, it should work out just fine

mxk3, tonight and tomorrow we are expecting 2 to 4 inches and so this morning I spread 5 "leaf bags" of shredded leaves as ground cover mulch through all areas of our garden.

The garden has now been laid to rest to awaken, hopefully in good health, come next March/April.

^^ All right, you got it done! I worked on spreading some over the beds in the veggie garden but didn't get finished, I was weeding as I was going, which took a while. The snow will probably melt, it's supposed to go up to high 30s/low 40s, and we've only got about an inch or so, so I can probably finish the weeding and mulching those beds before the end of the month.

I took DH's truck last Sunday and picked up 24 (!) bags of beautiful shredded leaves from a nearby subdivision. We had about 12 bags and spread another maybe 10 already that was from our own property, but I'm going to need a lot of mulch for the new border I'm working on (edges cut, will till under in spring). I should have made another trip and picked up more, but they're long gone after garbage day. Oh well.

I took DH's truck last Sunday and picked up 24 (!) bags of beautiful shredded leaves from a nearby subdivision .

mxk3 I am just interested in the mechanics of this windfall. "Shredded" is the key...how were you able determine which bags out by the curb were shredded?!

^^ I looked.

I looked.

I am impressed with your...boldness ;).

I would expect that the great majority of leaf bags put out to the curb would not be shredded ie all whole?

^^ Depends. Some people shred, some don't. If raked, they're not going to go the extra step of shredding, but with the riding mower attachments or lawn services, they'll shred. I've used plenty of unshredded leaves over the years, too, but obviously much prefer the shredded - they don't blow away as much, and there's a heck of lot more in the bags, so when DH shreds he can really pack those bags full for storage.

BTW - I am rather sheepish about collecting other people's leaves from the trash pile -- I usually do it under the cover of darkness LOL!