A prep sink in the island would be helpful as is layed out.

I'd swap the fridge and oven locations. You typically work from fridge-to sink- prep- then stove/oven. The way you have it now doesn't flow great. I don't see a pantry or microwave anywhere in the plans either. Maybe put a pantry next to the double ovens (where you have the fridge location) and the microwave in the island. The island looks too skinny and long but I know this is just a rough draft.

I'd drop the double ovens, make the island all one level and put an put an 18" inside dimension prep sink toward the right half of the island. A single bowl main sink of at least 24" and an induction slide-in range like a Bosch would be one I'd look at. Miele or Bosch dw. All lowers can be wide drawers with Blum Tandem undermount slides with soft close.

I will have a pantry cupboard next to the refrigerator (wherever that may end up). I see some concerns. 1) Sink, dishwasher-length to dining area. 2) distance between ovens and cook top. Dan I put in the double oven for more baking/cooking room and because I am thinking down the road as I age (I am 55) that it will be tough pulling heavy items from a so low to the ground oven. Sina, the island will be one level and will be 8' in length. Not sure on width yet. At least 3' wide. Will have stools on opposite side.

"... the island will be one level and will be 8' in length. Not sure on width yet. At least 3' wide. Will have stools on opposite side."

If you have seating at the island, then the minimum depth should be 40.5" deep, not 36". (If you have decorative doors or end panels on the backs of the island cabinets, then 41.5".)

• Counters overhang cabinets in the front by around 1.5"
• The minimum recommended seating overhang for counter-height seating is 15". That's for up to average height. If you or anyone in your family is tall (6' and over) or has long legs, then I recommend 18" (From what I see, I think you have plenty of room for both 15" and 18" seating overhangs.)
• Base cabinets are 24" deep (standard base cabs)
• Decorative doors and end panels add approx 1"

.

So, doing the math:

1.5" counter overhang on the front

+ 24" deep base cabinets

+ 15" seating overhang

========

40.5" deep island

If decorative door or end panel: 40.5" + 1" = 41.5"

As I said above, you have plenty of room, so don't skimp on the seating overhang!

Thank you Buehl. I will get the final plan from my husband to post.

Unfortunately, I assumed we would have no problem configuring the kitchen. I did not want the side window but hubby insists (I pick and choose my battles). I think there is a way to work it, I'm just not sure what that is.

I knew we had to have overhang on the stool side and was not thinking of that-sorry!

My husband says we can move the sidecwindow.side window. He can take it out but he really would rather not.

Not what you asked, but how are you planning to arrange furniture in the family room?

The inside dimensions of the front wall are roughly (measuring by ruler) are 12'7''-The front window is 5 ft from the bump out where the double oven is (right now). The window is 2'10" wide. The other window is the same size. The side window can be moved but not the front because it is centered.

We are empty nesters 55 and 61. I cook frequently for dinners, sometimes baking. 3 children and families visit a couple times a month. I usually host holidays. We can make some structural changes if need be but would try not to.

If I placed the refrigerator where the double ovens are I would most likely need filler. Would this stick out way too far beyond the counter (to clear wall for door opening for french door fridge)? My other thought as I said would be placing the sink and dishwasher in the island. Would this help? Then I would need to figure out still where the cook top would go and micrrowave drawer. I am just throwing out my thoughts at the moment and obviously have no real experience except a kitchen redo in my former home I sold last December. I appreciate all the help.

Hi Bpath. Thinking couch facing fireplace, possible love seat to right of couch )unless we get a corner couch) and chair to left of couch (not directly next to it) angled. Does this make sense?Just my thought right now. We were lucky to be able to go into a house with a somewhat similar design and make our own plans with changes with an architect. We were able to measure every room and see what could be placed where and how much more room we needed and why we actually added sq footage to our plan.

I'm not a fan of cleanup sinks in the island. I'm not militant about keep dirty dishes in the DW and off the counter, so I would not want my Cleanup Zone where the dirty dishes are front & center and on display for all to see -- which is what happens in an island (or peninsula). I also don't like sitting at a counter with the dirty dishes "in my face".

Let me think about it.

I'm just worried about easy access to and from the bedroom and not too much exposure. You might sketch in your furniture on a piece of paper to be sure you don't bang into the coffee table or the arm of the chair.

Thank you Bpath. I had considered removing the small hallway and just placing a door further down the wall from the living room into our bedroom but was not thrilled with having doorway to master right there. I know this doorway is an issue. I asked myself how many times or how many people are going to be entering the master? Just my husband and I 95% of the time. I think there is plenty of room for furniture without bumping each other. We measured it all out.

Buehl maybe I need to consider Dan's suggestion of using a slide in induction range/oven instead of the double wall ovens. Let me tell you, I have so much angst over trying to figure out exactly what I need vs what I want. It is just the two of us. How often will I need two ovens? I can count on one hand most likely. Maybe I could deal with a double oven range slide in and that would work fine. Sometimes less is more. I do not want complicated but I was more ease of use as I age. I am planning on this being my last house till I die or go to a nursing home. Sad isn't it?

I actually agree with you! We are beginning to think about our retirement home and one of the things that I consider a "must have" is at least one wall oven installed at the ideal height (I have to figure that out -- it's probably 2 feet off the floor, but I haven't calculated it yet).

Our MW will either be a drawer (preferred) --or-- in an alcove midway b/w counter height and upper cab height (with a pullout shelf beneath it). (Another calculation I need to make -- what's the best height....the NKBA guidelines should help.)

I am even debating installing the DW 6" higher than standard!

I would switch the cooktop and the sink. Prep usually is refrigerator to sink to stove. Your fridge is in the perfect location. And your ovens would be near your cooktop.

I would talk hubby into removing the courtyard window or moving it down so the sink could be looking out the window.

Another helpful person told me to put in two slimmer windows in front and put the cooktop between them, double oven where I wanted them and sink under window on side. H is not thrilled with two windows, thought it didn't look centered but I am kind of liking it..... OR I can keep single window, put slide in range with double oven to right side of window on front wall, put sink under side window and fridge to the left of the sink near end of wall with pantry at very end next to fridge? Kathi he is open to moving that side window but seems stuck on that one front window being centered and only one window....but not 100% opposed to double slim windows. He thinks the single window looks better.

My feelings about island seating with the dining table right there. It'll be more comfortable for anyone to use the lower height chairs at the table. No one chooses the island unless you're running a group demo.

The oven in the range isn't an issue for any of the older people I know without a disability. Of course a physical problem is different and you'd want the dishwasher raised as well as the lower drawers for heavier pans, etc. People are staying fit more.

We sit in our living room and put our plates on the coffee table all the time and hardly ever use our seating at the island but because we will no longer have a dining room I felt it needed these extra seats....for parties, get togethers with whole family, etc.

When my kids were young, we sat at the table, but now that they're grown, they prefer the island--I guess it's more convenient to the range and fridge.

You could put the DW on the end of the island nearer the dining area, with a dish hutch across from it, and put the pantry beside the ovens. If you could talk your husband into a third window, you could have a window on each side of the cooktop hood, to let in more light. I drew an optional prep sink beside the window at the bottom, in case you regularly have help in the kitchen.

I've not read all of this in detail but a few thoughts.

- Keep the window! Or a window or two on that wall. Every room should have windows on at least two sides if possible.

- Be very careful about windows too close to the range or you could find yourself with a greasy mess on them that you're not happy with.

- Prep sink in the island, clean-up sink along the wall. DW next to the clean-up sink, not prep sink.

- Range + wall oven. As you age you'll appreciate having the wall oven at a convenient height and two ovens can make entertaining (children, grandchildren, friends, great-grandchildren, grandchildren's BF's/GF's, etc.) much much easier. We cook and bake a lot and have a rather strong preference for both a gas (range) and electric (wall) oven.

- Personally I don't get massively concerned about flow so long as I've got a convenient landing place to put stuff when I remove it from the frig or pantry, I've got a good prep area, I've got convenient landing places for things removed from ovens. In a commercial kitchen flow makes a significant difference but for meal-at-a-time stuff I'd consider it a nice to have rather than at all critical.

That said, I've enjoyed some amazing meals prepared in tiny kitchens with poor layout and only one oven. Anything beyond that is mostly to increase the enjoyment of cooking and entertaining.

Thank you Opaone. I was seriously considering a slide in double oven with coduction cook top because then I could put that where the double ovens are, put the sink on the side wall with the dishwasher near the fridge. I thought that might be a good lay out. Will definitely be asking a KD as well.

Dear NewEnglandgal,

Kitchen Design Advice You Might Consider

Without having your existing kitchen layout to figure out what performance benefits you’d might like to keep. And what performance problems it has that you may want to resolve, fix, or eliminate. I have no way to know exactly where you’re starting from.

Without an interview to determine HOW you want and expect to LIVE in your new kitchen I don’t know exactly where you want to end up. So it’s difficult to give you direction.

That being said I reviewed the floor plan you posted to give you some more things you may want to consider that might otherwise not occur to you until AFTER your new kitchen is done and you can’t do anything to change it.

1. You need to understand HOW to read your kitchen layout, because it tells you exactly how you will live your life in your new kitchen day to day and when you entertain. Your architect should have already explained HOW to do this. Since they are not designing your kitchen it should be your kitchen designer’s responsibility.

You need to know exactly what you’re looking at and understand what it is telling you if you are to make fully informed decisions about how you are going to live your own life in your own home.

If you don’t know how to read your kitchen layout you’ll need to find someone who does that can interpret it for you.

Otherwise you will be moving into your new kitchen with your boxes of kitchen items from your old kitchen, AFTER your kitchen is done, and all of your help is gone.

And you’ll be left trying to figure out where all of your stuff is supposed to go in your beautiful new kitchen. That’s when you’ll realize that you don’t have a clue as to exactly how your kitchen really works. Or where all of your stuff is supposed to go, so you’ll end up adapting to what you got.

So you put your stuff where ever it fits and as long as you know where everything is you’ll make do. Isn’t that what you did when you move into your last kitchen?

So much for the unique, custom, just for you and your space new kitchen solution you believed you were getting.

To avoid this problem create your kitchen item inventory checklist. Then when your kitchen plan and interior elevations are done, using your list locate all of your items.

Doing this will save you from experiencing disappointment and frustration you may otherwise experience. You’ll avoid mistakes you don’t know you’re making. Your new kitchen will be much more efficient adding time to your life instead of consuming it.

For a DIY solution to do this click the link below.

https://www.kitchendesignco.com/new-kitchen-doesnt-work/

Most designers and clients focus on esthetics. How beautiful your new kitchen will be and not how it works day to day and when they are entertaining. So the focus is on getting the kitchen done NOT HOW the client is going to LIVE IN their kitchen AFTER it’s done, and for as long as they are in their home.

Huge Mistake in my opinion because you really can get a new kitchen and a new, better, easier life than you’re experiencing now in your existing kitchen. And deep down isn’t that what you really want and expect to get?

2. You need to have a FINALIZED list of appliances that will serve you and your CHANGING Family needs for as long as you’re in this home. Appliance sizes are standard and fixed. Cabinetry sizes are flexible.

If your appliances are inadequate you will have to remodel your new kitchen or live with its built in inadequacies.

Without a finalized list you cannot design your kitchen. Rushing ALWAYS takes longer, you will waste time and money, and chances are very good that you’ll wind up with a kitchen everyone else loves, but doesn’t work for you.

Every time you change an appliance the change or changes in size will ripple through your kitchen design. Potentially fixing one problem and causing others. Not an effective way to move your project forward. Decide on the appliances you’ll need until your next remodel and then design your new kitchen around them.

3. You should get to SEE and consider every possible combination of appliances and cabinetry that resolve, fix, or eliminate your current kitchen problems. Not consider one layout and try to justify it by tweaking it with good ideas.

I believe this approach is working backwards, and in most cases will NOT eliminate your doubt and uncertainty you have about doing this project right.

Based upon my experience You should get to see and compare at least 5 different kitchen layout options. For examples see click the link below.

https://www.kitchendesignco.com/layout-laboratory/

I am showing you three that can be tweaked to produce many more depending upon who does your space planning. And what the kitchen performance problems are that you have that you want resolved, fixed or eliminated.

4. You should use 3D perspective drawings like these (click the link below to see examples) to make your design decisions, because the majority of people (this includes many designers) don’t really understand what their 2D plan and interior elevations will actually produce.

https://www.kitchendesignco.com/kitchen-design-drawings/

Most kitchen designers use design and ordering software to produce plan, elevation, perspective drawings, and a cabinetry order list all at the same time. These elevations and perspective drawings “look awkward”, in my opinion, because they do not accurately reflect How the kitchen will “Look and Feel” in the client’s home BEFORE it gets built.

That is until AFTER the kitchens are done and there is nothing clients can do. Because even though what they get is unexpected, the kitchen (not their kitchen they expected) will match their kitchen design drawings.

And you can’t complain about getting a beautiful new kitchen without coming off as being completely ungrateful. So you’ll just live with a kitchen you don’t really want and make do. And For As Long As You’re In This Home!

Not what anyone expects or wants to have happen.

5. You Should NOT focus on getting your new kitchen done to start your new life. You Should Focus on how You want and expect to LIVE Your New Life In It AFTER your new kitchen is done.

6. If you expect your new kitchen to last AVOID Everything Trendy, New, and WOW. The kitchen industry pushes the latest fashion trends to sell more kitchens. This is a fact not a secret. Trends change about every ten years.

If you ever wondered why so many dated dysfunctional kitchens litter this country this is why. When the Trend your new kitchen was designed to meet CHANGES the esthetic appeal of your new kitchen plummets to Zero!

No one wants a kitchen that’s dated. If you want your kitchen to Look the way it did when it was completed for as long as you’re in your home. AVOID the latest trends.

To Be Continued…

Dear NewEnglandgal,

HERE IS MY FEEDBACK

On your kitchen existing layout (see attached marked up layout).

Your kitchen layout’s performance problems I see.

Your work triangle is a large as you can get it. With aisle ways of 66” and 75” between your island, and the cook top and sink walls. There is no separation between work space and gathering space.

Also you will need to take 3 to 5 steps to get from your cook top or sink to get to your island. You may want your aisle ways to be this wide I don’t know.

Your sink wall is 24’ away from your dining table, as are your dishes and glasses if stored there. And even further away from your deck when you dine, BBQ, or entertain outside.

You have no back up pantry storage in your kitchen shown. Unless you have a ref/f in your garage I don’t believe a 36” ref/f will be adequate for a three bedroom home. And all of the changes in lifestyle you and your family may experience while living here.

Your fixed window placements limit what you can do to correct your kitchens performance problems. Which may be good, because you’ll limit what’s possible. Or bad depending upon which new kitchen layout options you won’t get to see because of this requirement.

Option 1

Pulling your island closer to the cook top and sink walls (42”-48”) will give you separation between work space and gathering space. Adding an island sink will cut your work triangle in half. However the other performance problems listed remain.

Option 2

Adding a wall with a large opening in it gives you wall space so you can move your main sink closer to your dining and outdoor space making this layout more efficient in servicing these areas.

Your kitchen (which can be noisy in an open plan) has some separation from the family room but because of the large opening won’t “feel” separated. You may also want some wall space in your family room for furniture and decoration.

Island prep sink makes your work triangle very small. And a built in back up pantry allows you to have everything you need within the kitchen.

Option 3

Move your kitchen to between your dining room area and your deck. You can service these areas more easily because the kitchen is between both living areas.

Built-ins in the dining room give you pantry storage, a small buffet, and a china closet or additional storage. The buffet could be made wider if the storage closets are smaller.

Some very rough ideas you might consider that may lead you to other layout possibilities.

I hope this has been helpful.

Joe Brandao

Kitchen Design Company

Thank you Joe for all your information and the time you took to look at my plan and give me ideas. We met with our KD this morning and talked at length about our needs, wants and what would be easiest to move around the kitchen but have everything in the right place. I had discussed placing the sink, DW and trash container in the island and believe I am going to do this. It puts the sink in the middle and also closer to the dining area. It will be just my husband and I, an older aging couple :( The KD is going to come up with something based on our talk and what appliances I am looking at. I appreciate all your help and will keep your information for when I go to see him next.

Dear NewEnglandgal,

New Kitchen = New Life.

I know this is possible from my own personal experience. Having remodeled three kitchens and working on our fourth.

Even for an older couple.

Now is your opportunity to improve your home and the life you’ll live in it, for as long as you own it.

I hope your new kitchen delivers the new, better, easier life you really want and expect to be living in it each and every day AFTER your new kitchen is done.

Wishing you both many, many more years of enjoying your lives together.

Joe Brandao

Kitchen Design Company