Hahaha...seems "pocohantas" is part Native American...

Annie Deighnaugh

...after all. Just love it. Puts him right back where he was with the obama birther thing. What an ignoranimus!


Sen. Elizabeth Warren has released the results of a DNA analysis showing she has distant Native American ancestry, which could pre-empt further questions and attacks should she run for president in 2020.

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mrskjun(9)

Distant? And what are Harvard's requirement?

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Nothing Left to Say

Thing is Trump and his supporters won’t care. He’ll keep repeating his racist slur and his supporters will too.

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Nothing Left to Say

Havard’s requirements for what Mrskjun?

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momj47(7A)

Distant? And what are Harvard's requirement?

Do her ancestors go back to the founding of this nation?

She grew up in "Indian Territory".

How about yours, kjun

Any Founding Fathers or Mothers?

The farther back your family goes in the US, the more likely you will be to find not only Native American (North, Central and South American), but sub-Saharan African roots in your family tree.

Would that be a problem for you?

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mrskjun(9)

To be classified as a minority crl

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mrskjun(9)

Thanks mom. Does that mean I can check minority status on my college entrance?

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chase_gw

Mis , I guess your media sources didn't publish the Boston Globe extensive investigative report a month or so back that proved through interviews and extensive documents that she never used her heritage to get into university or for any of her appointments and jobs.

Guess this means Trump owes her $1M dollars...do you think he'll pay?

ETA I can't link to the actual Globe Repost but here is a reference to it from the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/02/elizabeth-warren-donald-trump-pocahontas

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Donnie is such a liar himself, so he reacts to everyone as if THEY are liars as well.

Unless they're licking his boots, of course....

edited

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GOD

Please don't get sidetracks with squirrel posts.


Bustamante's analysis places Warren's Native American ancestor between six and 10 generations ago, with the report estimating eight generations. "The identity of the sample donor, Elizabeth Warren, was not known to the analyst during the time the work was performed," the report says.


Warren's heredity shows she is part native American.

The topic is closed except for the apologies to her and her family.

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mrskjun(9)

"As I have confirmed before, I let people know about my Native American heritage in a national directory of law school personnel," Warren said in the statement. "At some point after I was hired by them, I also provided that information to the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard. My Native American heritage is part of who I am, I'm proud of it and I have been open about it."

Link

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mrskjun(9)

Seems she just likes making claims.

"This morning three different law professors sent me this video of U.S. Senate Candidate and Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Warren claiming to be the first nursing mother to ever take the bar exam. One of the professors, who is a liberal academic, noted that she knows that claim to be untrue from personal experience. However, as noted by Winnie Comfort of the New Jersey Judiciary (which administers state’s bar exam), the bar does not track nursing habits and women have been taking the New Jersey bar exam since 1895. This was not a claim to be a nursing Cherokee mother, but the question remains why Warren is making such controversial boasts when she has a great financial expertise record to run on. Worse still, Warren today admitted that she did in fact claim minority status at Penn and Harvard — after insisting that she was unaware of the claims. "

Link

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ojo_sigo

Perhaps we could call Trump Adolf because of his German heritage?

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chase_gw

So what if she spoke about it. The point is it didn't play a part in any position she got. In fact according to the Globe article she always checked the block "Caucasian" until well after she was well established in her law career

I don't except you to let it go.........but the facts prove you wrong

From the Guardian article

" The Globe reported that interviews and documents show the issue was not considered by Harvard Law faculty or those who admitted Warren to law school at Rutgers or to jobs at the University of Houston, the University of Texas and the University of Pennsylvania.

“She was not on the radar screen at all in terms of a racial minority hire,” Randall Kennedy, a law professor who was in charge of recruiting minority candidates to Harvard Law School, told the newspaper. “It was just not an issue. I can’t remember anybody ever mentioning her in this context.”

The Globe reported that it examined hundreds of documents, many never before available, and talked to 31 law school professors from that period at Harvard. All but one said her Native American heritage was not discussed as part of the decision to hire her. One said he was unsure if the issue came up, but if it did, it had no bearing on his vote."

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Nothing Left to Say

I don’t get your point Mrskjun? You think Harvard has a genetic testing criteria to be listed as a minority in a staff directory?


The genetic testing results are entirely consistent with the story Sen. Warren was told by her family and has been publically telling.


As Lynn says, now it’s time for the public apologies.

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mrskjun(9)

So I guess he's right in calling her Pocahontas since someone 6 to 10 generations ago in her family was native American huh? Need to get a bigger shovel!

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Annie Deighnaugh

So choke up the bucks, donald duck!

“I’m going to get one of those little [DNA testing] kits and in the middle of the debate, when she proclaims she’s of Indian heritage...," Trump said. “And we will say, ‘I will give you a million dollars, paid for by Trump, to your favorite charity, if you take the test and it shows you’re an Indian.' And we’ll see what she does. I have a feeling she will say no, but we will hold it for the debates.”

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chase_gw

Yes, it is time for apologies and an admission that this was nothing more than a manipulating of information to discredit her. Trump particularly owes her, and all Native Americans, an apology...by that won't happen. No doubt he will double down

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Pidge

What you need to get, mrsk, is rid of the racially insensitive innuendos.

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chase_gw

Mrs...... If you think that for any reason Trump calling her " Pocahontas" is in any way acceptable then there really isn't anything more to say.

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GOD

The hate from the right continues!

(the more facts given, the more the right is proven wrong!)

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An (PNW 6b)

Native American groups have called Trump out for calling Warren “Pocahontas”. They feel it’s offensive and derogatory and I believe we should all honor that, whether Trump does or not.

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Pidge

I agree with An. Trump is not celebrating Native heritage, but mocking it. He's a racist plain and simple.

ETA that I wish the OP title didn't use that name, either.

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Kathy

Sounds as if Trump owes Warren a million bucks.

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Göndul

Elizabeth Warren is making the case for the "one drop rule", which is ironic since she'll deflect and call Trump a racist.

Warren is the one who benefited as a white woman with privilege, from oppressed and marginalized NAs, perhaps usurping opportunities and benefits she did not qualify for, both racially and socioeconomically.

So, this dna test does nothing to ameliorate the character issues which Warren refused to confront honestly.


(not to mention the speculative nature of NA dna due to the paucity of samples and use of South American dna as a proxy)

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Ziemia(6a)

I shouldn't be surprised that a TrumpFan is using such degrading terminology.

PS: Warren is not "making a case."

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chase_gw

My Irish heritage goes back at least 5 generations maybe 6... Dress that mean I can't say I have Irish ancestry ?

Between the Globe article and the blood test Warren is clearly telling the truth. She does have Native American heritage and at NO time was it ever used in any way to further her education or her law career..

Yet the detractors stick with the lies and slurs. What is so darn hard about saying ...we were wrong ? Or at least dropping it ......but to continue the slurs in face of the facts is very telling

Edited

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Göndul

DNA history is different from generational history. You might test for heritage you've assumed would show up, and it doesn't show up

The fact that Warren found one dna testing model that predicts she has NA ancestry going 6-10 generations back is not all that compelling.

The fact that she's using the "one drop rule" is rather offensive as we've evolved scientifically and socially since she benefited from her claims.

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Ziemia(6a)

Still being surprised. At comments degrading intrinsic factors, not acquired ones. I knew these kind of Americans exist, just didn't think they were here any longer.

PS: Gondul --- it's Trump and other GOP that made a big deal out of her sharing her family's history. No one can find documents showing she used that family history to get ahead. It fist came out in her campaign against Scott Brown. Who left the state after his loss to her (mentioning it because it shows his dedication / interest in representing Massachusetts ---- a thing many TrumpFans hold against some Dem MoC.).

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deegw

Of course the pro-Trumpsters pop in here, once again, to nit pick and deflect.


Trying to turn the conversation into an analysis of the difference between DNA versus family trees and ignoring the substance of Trump's repeated assertions.






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GOD

The right is wrong again, and again, and again.

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roxsol

“Sounds as if Trump owes Warren a million bucks.”

She’s going to have to get in line behind a whole lot of other people.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Ya think trump will pay up? nope, he loves money too much and of course he lies too much.

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anitamo(5)

“Sounds as if Trump owes Warren a million bucks.”

Yes, but he's now saying he didn't say that. There's a tape with Trump saying on July 5th at one of his ego rallies that he would donate $1000000 to a charity of her choice. He told the reporter this morning that's not what he said, go listen to it again, he said.

He's such a liar

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

"Yes, but he's now saying he didn't say that. There's a tape with Trump saying..."

Par for donald's course, tapes be damned, recording are fake newz. It couldn't be more clear when the UN laughed at him, he said he didn't expect that reaction, then later the same day says he made a joke they laughed at. la-la-lie-lie land.

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CindyMac(8b)

Yes, but he's now saying he didn't say that. There's a tape with Trump saying on July 5th at one of his ego rallies that he would donate $1000000 to a charity of her choice. He told the reporter this morning that's not what he said, go listen to it again, he said.


It's in the video I posted above of Warren and her family.





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enegiram

The right is, once again, showing how ignorant and biased they are! Pathetic, they are shown facts and still peddle fiction....go figure, no wonder they are Trumpsters.

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graywings123(7)

I believe this is what you call a neener-neener moment.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

". . . perhaps usurping opportunities and benefits she did not qualify for, both racially and socioeconomically."

Oh, just drop it! There is not one iota of evidence that she ever "usurped" any "opportunities and benefits she did not qualify for."

As far as I know, all universities have a place on the enrollment forms that ask, if you wish, to mark what race you are. They also emphasize that that information has nothing to do with enrollment or any other matter at the university but is used only for reporting purposes to the federal government for counting purposes under the Affirmative Action program. None of that information is available to departmental hiring committees, so they would have no way of knowing anyone's racial background when they examine any candidate's resume and job application letter and references --unless the candidate or the referees mentioned it--and there has been NO ONE claiming that the candidate or the referees mentioned anything about race during the hiring process.

I have been on many a university hiring committee and I assure you that race is not considered. In fact, it is against the law for the hiring committees to even consider race if they do know it somehow. The university's Affirmative Action officer even makes a special trip to the hiring department in order to lecture them (rather severely, at that) on what they are allowed to do or not--and any consideration of race is absolutely forbidden. Why? Because if race was involved, someone might later sue the university about it and the university would lose its access to federal Affirmative Action monies. And, I assure you, universities have no desire to be be deprived of their Affirmative Action monies.

Most of the critics have never had anything to do with university hiring processes and thus do not know what they are talking about. So take my word for it--I know, because I have been on many university hiring committees.

No one had their "opportunities" "usurped" by Elizabeth Warren.

Kate

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CindyMac(8b)



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Göndul

Did Warren find the "Cherokee blood" which forced her parents to be married in secret?

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chase_gw

I suggest those who insist on this false narrative read the Globe article. They concluded definitively that Warren in NO way used her heritage to advantage.

They examined thousands of documents and interviewed hundreds of people Warren always checked the " Caucasian" block on any form associated with her education or carreer. It was until much later , when she was well established, that she spoke of her heritage .

The authorities in all her jobs etc say that she never once even mentioned her heritage.

It didn' t happen.....read the article....facts matter

" The Globe reported that interviews and documents show the issue was not considered by Harvard Law faculty or those who admitted Warren to law school at Rutgers or to jobs at the University of Houston, the University of Texas and the University of Pennsylvania.

“She was not on the radar screen at all in terms of a racial minority hire,” Randall Kennedy, a law professor who was in charge of recruiting minority candidates to Harvard Law School, told the newspaper. “It was just not an issue. I can’t remember anybody ever mentioning her in this context.”

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CindyMac(8b)

It didn' t happen.....read the article....facts matter.

You don't even have to read it's in the video.




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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Trump was just on MSNBC responding to questions about the $1 million he owes Warren's favorite charity, which is what the original challenge stated (on record, and played by MSNBC).

Trump's answer? He brushed it off and turned away, saying over his shoulder as he walked away from the reporters that (paraphrase) none of that matters. He won, he is president. Besides, he never said that.

Same as he did about the "birther" controversy for Obama. Exploited it as a campaign tactic--then, when his claims were proven inaccurate, just said "oh"--and walked off, never mentioning it again.

In other words, he never really meant it or cared, in either case, but as long as it worked as an effective campaign tool, he exploited it like crazy. Truth be d--ned!

Kate

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cattyles

Do Trump supporters believe that Trump will look better in comparison if they smear Dems with petty attacks or is it simple deflection?

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Kathy

Trump lies with impunity. He won and that says it all. There is no moral compass in that man. Money rules.

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redsox_gw

Only one side of this forum deletes. It is lying by omission. So you understand why they support him...they don't mind lying one bit.

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chase_gw

Yes, Bunny I know. I also captured it in my post above . I'm going to go back and credit the " author"

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deegw

You cite a blog post, on a pro-Trump website, that makes many assumptions in order to downplay the results,

Trump is the one who made a "huge" deal out the issue. He used it to attack. He mentioned it multiple times. He proposed a bet about it on tape.

Trump is wrong.

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maifleur01

Depending on where a person lived until the late 1970's saying or checking a box stating you were Native American or black would mean you were not accepted for what you were applying. In Oklahoma with the many different tribes it was accepted but even there a stigma existed. Warren and I are of an age bragging about being Native American was something that just was not done if you wanted to progress in a career. If someone asked it might be mentioned but that was it. Some on here are projecting their own bias and what they see now vs. actuality then.

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sheesh(5b)

He'll welch. He always does.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Isn't he part welch?

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GOD

Show us the money!

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Joaniepoanie

Trump is such a piece of work. No qualms slandering others to get what he wants yet he takes great offense when he's reported on verbatim.

I never understood what the flap with Warren was about. Weren't we all told by our parents what our heritage was? Why wouldn't we believe our parents? And Warren did not need any help getting a position at Harvard anyway, she's a brilliant woman.

Stan...."took long enough".......yeah....how about Trump's taxes? When are we going to see them? Way more germane than Warren's heritage!

And Gondul.....Warren grew up very poor....and since she does have NA heritage she didn't take anything from anyone.

But keep believing Trump's lies....history will not be kind to him or you.



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Ziemia(6a)

The GOP made her background an issue. They brought it into the campaign.

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Göndul

Warren's very argument hearkens back to the Democrats' anti-miscegenation laws and Jim Crow laws.
At best, Warren's results are suggestive and predictive, not conclusive,
particularly going back past the great, great grandmother.

The results of this test (which probably is the best of all she's subjected her dna to, and that's not saying much) do not make her "the first woman of color" anywhere.

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Stan Areted

Joaniepoanie--I didn't care.

I couldn't care less what Warren's ethnic background is.

My mentioning it "took long enough" was pointing out that if she was sure I think she would have published much earlier. I'm guessing it took her long enough to find someone to come up with this in anticipation of a presidential run.

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Ann

Lol, I haven't read any of this thread yet, but 1/512th Native American likely won't qualify her for anything:)

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Göndul

Warren likes to make "first woman to..." claims. She claimed she was the first nursing mother to take the bar exam in N.J.

Another unverified claim.

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Göndul

Ann, could be 1/1024th.

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Nothing Left to Say

Lol, Ann, what do you think she’s trying to qualify for?

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queenmargo

A dance with Trump lol

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Ziemia(6a)

She never used her NA ancestry to qualify for anything.

The GOP made it an issue -- they dug for stuff to use against her.

(I hope I can start finding it funny that TrumpFans ignore all logic / history.)

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GOD

The right wing is having a meltdown all over the intertubes.

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Göndul

No matter the speculative and wide-ranging suggestions provided in the narrative of Warren's dna results, they are not dispositive of her claims, particularly of being Cherokee and Delaware heritage.

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

She never used her NA ancestry to qualify for anything.

The GOP made it an issue -- they dug for stuff to use against her.

liars....

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chase_gw

She isn't asking to qualify for anything...and never did

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arthurpym

The right wing is having a meltdown all over the intertubes.

They always do.

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maifleur01

Until someone finds a Delaware or Cherokee that is 100% with no admixtures as a baseline there is no way to prove via DNA that you are of those or any other tribe at this point in history. Tribes often used captive women for sex and produced children so most tribes that are considered "pure" are actually a mixture of various tribes. Shows how little some people know about ancestry. Same as those that state they are 100% Irish many peoples make up ancestry of people living in Ireland.

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heri_cles

Senator Warren would mop the floor with Trump in a debate.

She would never allow him to get away with the incredible disrespect and outrageous comments that he made to Hilary Clinton.

Senator Warren is a scholar. Trump is a moron with the vocabulary of a 5th grader.

Let's see a copy of tRump's Draft Deferments and the medical records that accompanied them. Bone spurs? LOL.

And where are the tax returns Trump promised to produce? I offer Trump 1 Million dollars in exchange for a full copy of his tax returns (personal and Trump organization) over the last 10 years provided that he supplies them in the next 7 days.

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GOD

Trump is now saying he didn't say what he said.

Too bad trump, that you said it publicly.

You owe 1 million dollars to Warren's pick of Charity.

Pay up!

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Joaniepoanie

Stan Areted

Joaniepoanie--I didnt' care.

I couldn't care less what Warren's ethnic background is.

My mentioning it "took long enough" was pointing out that if she was sure I think she would have published much earlier. I'm guessing it took her long enough to find someone to come up with this in anticipation of a presidential run.

---- ---------

Both Obama and Warren should have told Trump to go eff himself! Who is he to question anyone... the biggest liar and crook there is.

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dockside_gw

Trump's answer? He brushed it off and turned away, saying over his
shoulder as he walked away from the reporters that (paraphrase) none of that matters. He won, he is president. Besides, he never said that.

He such a despicable man.

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patriciae_gw(07)

The person who interpreted Warrens DNA results Professor Bustamante is the head of DNA research at Stanford. He is one of the top experts in his field in the world. The world. He states that her ancestry is not in any way suspect. It is exactly what she has always claimed. The evidence is overwhelming.

It is impossible to isolate individual native tribes because there isn't sufficient sample data to do so. Most native people do not give samples because they feel it is invasive and that it will be used against them. Tribal leadership is typically against participating in these sorts of studies. Still in the same way I know I am mostly northern European with leanings to certain areas American native people all share certain segments. there are populations in other parts of the continents that have been well studied. It is interesting stuff. Conservatives need to let this one go. Find something else to attack Warren on.

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Stan Areted

Warren has exhibited nothing but identity politics--first woman this, Native America that, victim this, corporate that, to bring attention to herself.

I prefer men AND women that bring something substantive to the table--their accomlishments and their abilities and policies, instead of appealing to groups that appeal to division rather than unity.

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j4c_11

More despicable coding

Not enough test coverage huh

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Ann

Clearly, I need to go back and see what was going on, because it seems really odd. Maybe it will make sense if I get caught up. I'll do that later on.

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VedaBeeps SoCal 9b/10a(9b/10)

“I prefer men AND women that bring something substantive to the table--their accomlishments and their abilities and policies, instead of appealing to groups that appeal to division rather than unity.“


Your support of Trump shows this statement to be untrue.

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GOD

In addition to showing that Warren is part native American, the genetic testing shows her family has been here for at least 6 generations.

Congrats to Elizabeth Warren!

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patriciae_gw(07)

Elizabeth Warren is a world renown expert in her field. She understands finance and banking in a way that I cant even imagine let alone talk about. Harvard held a chair open for her for two years waiting for her to be able to come back to work for them. Because she is the best. Keep looking Stan. There has to be something you can use.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

Every time these tRump asking people to prove who they are I giggle. He sued Maher for telling him to prove he was not was not "the son of a woman and an orangutan. Trump sued," because an orangutan has his orange hair color.

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Göndul

Warren's work has been highly criticized, particularly regarding 1 and 2-income families.

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Nothing Left to Say

Warren's work has been highly criticized, particularly regarding 1 and 2-income families.


Because no one criticizes her work regarding 3 and 4 income families??? This makes no sense.

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momj47(7A)

Thanks mom. Does that mean I can check minority status on my college entrance?

Do you have any minority status, or are you going to pull a Rachel Dolezal?

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momj47(7A)

I haven't read any of this thread yet, but 1/512th Native American likely won't qualify her for anything:)

It's a far sight higher than Mr. Trump's Swedish heritage

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j4c_11

are you going to pull a Rachel Dolezal?

How dare you tell Rachel how she should self-identify?

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Göndul

The only thing Warren's release of the interpretation of her dna testing proved is that she's really, really, super white.

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heri_cles

Trumps heritage:

His father was arrested while wearing a white hooded robe marching with the KKK.

This time around we will respond in kind to Trump.

No more taking the higher ground. That did not work with this bully dictator con man last time around.

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judeNY_gw

Speaking of things that are taking a while, whatever happened to the scathing report with proof that Obama was not born American that Trump's investigative team in Hawaii had discovered. The scathing report was supposed to have wowed us several years ago. Still waiting.

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heri_cles

I wonder how much Fred Trump donated to the best schools trump was admitted to and attended.

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justerrilynn(10)

Liz wins this round. Compared to the average American she is zero point .9%. About a little toenails worth.

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artemis_ma

hericles, is this really true? His father was arrested while wearing a white hooded robe marching with the KKK.

And even if it is, how does this relate to Donald the President? Do we all have to wear the sins of our fathers?



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mrskjun(9)

LOL, turns out the average American has more native American ancestry than Elizabeth Warren.

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queenmargo

hericles, is this really true? His father was arrested while wearing a white hooded robe marching with the KKK.

***********

The report on that came back inconclusive. The left will take a rumor and report it. No need for real facts.

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chase_gw

"LOL, turns out the average American has more native American ancestry than Elizabeth Warren."

Mrs, you got a source for that? What the heck is the " average" American? The Blacks with African heritage? The Asians, the Irish refugees, the millions of Hispanics, the cajuns from Canada?

The " average " American ? Who the hell is that ,?

Besides which it doesn't matter...she said she has Native American heritage ..and she does.

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momj47(7A)





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deegw

artemis, generally I would agree with you. But since Trump attacks every perceived weakness of an opponent, it's all fair game. It highlights his hypocrisy.

Remember his ridiculous assertions about Ted Cruz's father and Lee Harvey Oswald?

There is a NYT article about the rally and the arrests and Fred Trump is named. The article does not definitely say that he was or was not a member.

Snopes

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momj47(7A)

turns out the average American has more native American ancestry than Elizabeth Warren.

The average American has no native American ancestry, kjun.

Are Native Americans some kind of joke to the right wing?

Is that why the "Republicans" are so determined to disenfranchise them?

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catkinZ8a

In 2012 Warren continued to insist she was 1/32 Native American.

"Elizabeth Warren, the U.S. Senate candidate who claimed minority status during law school and as a young law professor, continues to insist that she is 1/32 Native American. Warren’s only proof is her mother’s word. Many American families have stories about Native American ancestors. How many really do?"

Why is she no longer listed as a minority in law directories? She stopped 'checking the box'. Great, great, great, great, great Grandfather, indeed.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/05/elizabeth-warren-says-shes-1-32-native-american-how-many-people-have-that-heritage.html

According to Warren’s own DNA test, she has, at best, 1/64th Native American ancestry, but it could also be as low as 1/1,024. Percentage-wise, she can claim somewhere between 0.1 percent to 1.56 percent Native lineage.

The minimum requirement to claim membership in most Native American tribes ranges from 1/8 (12.5 percent) to 1/2 (50 percent). A few tribes have a minimum requirement of 1/16 (six percent).

Boston Globe CORRECTION: "Due to a math error, a story about Elizabeth Warren misstated the ancestry percentage of a potential 10th generation relative. It should be 1/1,024."

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mrskjun(9)

Just saw a democratic strategist make that claim on tv. She thinks Warren is shooting herself in the foot with her claim. I guess time will tell.

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chase_gw

"Elizabeth Warren, the U.S. Senate candidate who claimed minority status during law school and as a young law professor, "

She never did that. That is a total lie. Go read the Globe article posted . She never once used her status to gain favourable status. That is the truth and the facts but hold on to the lie if it fits your agenda


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Göndul

The researchers found that European-Americans had genomes that were on average 98.6 percent European, .19 percent African, and .18 Native American.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/science/23andme-genetic-ethnicity-study.html

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chase_gw

Mrs, maybe, maybe not...but it doesn't change the facts . Personally I don't think she stands a chance in 2020 but that is not the point . The point is she was maliciously and deliberately maligned by the right for no good reason except to be nasty and discredit her.

Way worse than confronting Cruz in a restaurant

ETA why on earth is it so important to the right to keep pushing this narrative? Especially when it was never used to garner any favour. Don't you have better things to worry about?

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mrskjun(9)

Only in your PC world mom.

"The Boston Herald reported that Warren had previously been touted in the 1990s by officials at Harvard Law School, where she was a tenured professor, as an example of the faculty’s diversity. That led to the revelation that Warren — citing only anecdotal evidence — claimed to be part Cherokee and Delaware Indian, and had listed herself as a minority in a directory of law professors from 1986 until 1995."

Link

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mrskjun(9)

How was she maligned chase? Nobody made her make the claim.

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queenmargo

Don't you have better things to worry about?

Not at the moment.

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momj47(7A)

Oooo ..... Mr. Trump says he has more "indian" blood than she does.


Not likely., since we know when his family emigrated, and where they came from

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chase_gw

Mrs, come on.....the terrible untrue things that were said about her using her native American status to gain advantage.....the public slurs against her by Trump. Read the Globe article from September.....she NEVER used her heritage to seek advantage....never not once

Why do I bother.........haters gonna hate..facts be damned

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queenmargo

Now you know how Trump supporters feel. Wait til we start calling her sub human- and a plethora of insulting adjectives. Her or any leftist running candidate.

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cattyles

That’s a false equivalency. The insults about Trump are true.

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chijim

Well like Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory..."I'm not crazy, my mom had me tested"

Elisabeth took a test and it showed her DNA results say she is part Native American and DT is wrong..

Now moving on, can Trump prove he's a billionaire?

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mayflowers

The amount of Native American blood doesn't matter. She repeated what she was told by her grandparents from an early age. I was told the same thing by my uncle, who was born in 1900. He said it was something they didn't talk about because of how Indians were viewed back then. I don't know if it's true. But good for Elizabeth Warren that she was proud of the fact that she was part Native American. She could have been ashamed of it as my grandparents supposedly were.

Asked if she regretted claiming NA ancestry:

"No, as I said, these are my family stories. I have lived in a family
that has talked about Native Americans, talked about tribes since I had
been a little girl," she said. "I still have a picture on my mantel and
it is a picture my mother had before that - a picture of my grandfather.
And my Aunt Bea has walked by that picture at least a 1,000 times
remarked that he - her father, my Papaw -- had high cheek bones like all
of the Indians do. Because that is how she saw it and your mother got
those same great cheek bones and I didn't. She that thought was the bad
deal she had gotten in life."

"Being Native American has been part of my story, I guess, since the day I was born," Warren continued.

Warren said she was "very proud" of her heritage and "very proud of the
stories that my grandparents told me that my grandparents told my
parents and my parents told my brothers and me."

"Being Native American is part of who our family is and I'm glad to
tell anyone about that. I am just very proud of it," Warren said.


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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

Trump blurting out whatever he thinks will appeal to his fan base, regardless of how unfounded it is is Art of the Deal in action. Warren being a little bit non-white is a publicly displayed fascination to the contemporary American right wing because of the racist component that has risen to the forefront in later years.

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catkinZ8a

Warren talks about 'high cheekbones'. https://youtu.be/uegqTj3SHO4


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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The European-American average of .18 Native American would include those Europeans who were the earliest colonists to those who arrived in the 20th and 21st centuries. Being in the later group, my family for three generations had no Native American heritage. Only with the fourth generation is there inter-marriage with persons who might have Native American heritage. I don't think that my family is unique in that respect.

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catkinZ8a

Support her run! Buy the book at amazon!

Warren submitted plagiarized recipes to the cookbook POW WOW CHOW, and signed 'Elizabeth Warren-Cherokee'

"The two recipes, “Cold Omelets with Crab Meat” and “Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing,” appear in an article titled “Cold Omelets with Crab Meat,” written by Pierre Franey of the New York Times News Service that was published in the August 22, 1979 edition of the Virgin Islands Daily News, a copy of which can be seen here.

Ms. Warren’s 1984 recipe for Crab with Tomato Mayonnaise Dressing is a word-for-word copy of Mr. Franey’s 1979 recipe.

Mrs. Warren’s 1984 recipe for Cold Omelets with Crab Meat contains all four of the ingredients listed in Mr. Franey’s 1979 recipe in the exact same portion but lists five additional ingredients. More significantly, her instructions are virtually a word for word copy of Mr. Franey’s instructions from this 1979 article. Both instructions specify the use of a “seven inch Teflon pan.” The 1984 Pow Wow Chow recipe reads:https://www.amazon.com/Pow-Wow-Chow-Collection-Civilized/dp/9996688445

But it's not as bad because it's just a cookbook, right?

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mayflowers

Thanks for the recipes, catkin!


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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I bet that happens all the time.

I quit cooking when my kids grew up--never liked it. Not too long ago, my son asked for my recipe to a favorite simple but really good hamburger dish. I recited most of it by memory but had to dig through my old recipe box to see if I had forgotten anything. Not too long afterwards, by chance, the recipe appeared online--on FaceBook--one of my long-time friends periodically posts good recipes put out by online sources. Turns out I remembered the recipe exactly as it was preserved in my recipe box and also in the original cookbook used by the online source. I vaguely remembered having bought that cookbook centuries ago.

Obviously, way back when, I copied the recipe from a cookbook onto a recipe card and used it to make the dish. Years later, I just remembered the recipe from frequent use of it. So, in other words, if my son had submitted "my" recipe to a publisher putting out a cookbook called "My Mother's Recipes I Loved," that recipe would have been printed up exactly as it appeared in the original cookbook--although neither he nor I would have been aware of it.

That sort of thing happens all the time. Just ask any cook. Since recipes are supposed to be used for cooking, it is not plagiarism if one copies down the exact ingredients/directions from the original source. And a later descendant will have most likely lost all track of the original printed source.

I suspect very few people make up their own original recipes when recipes are submitted to a non-commercial cookbook.

Kate

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Ann

Lol Mrskjun. I heard the same info on the radio while heading to the grocery store - the average American has twice the Native American heritage as Elizabeth Warren:)

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mayflowers

Great! Maybe we can treat Native Americans with more respect since most of us share Native American ancestry.

My son's paternal great grandfather was 100% Native American. The family has always been proud of their heritage.

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Stan Areted

maragievank:

LOL- and the outrage from mom when I said let's have a civil pow wow. Here old Poca herself plagiarizes a recipe and calls it POW WOW CHOW, LOL LOL… she is not respectful to her high cheekbone heritage.


For real? So contrary to claims here, Elizabeth Warren HAS referenced and claimed so called Native American heritage.

Good Gosh.

And even those recipes are plagarized?

This is pathetic.


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mayflowers

That's how recipes have been shared for generations, Stan. Each recipe you see published is not the invention of the cook.

Plagiarism is the RNC speech Melania claimed to have written herself but which had the exact wording and some minor tweaking of a Michele Obama speech.

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Ann

IMO, it would be fair to characterize Warren's DNA move as one big belly flop, but it has added a bit of comedy to the news and conversations today.

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Stan Areted

Apparently Elizabeth Warren did not list her "Native American" status when applying to lower tier schools, she did list minority status when applying to higher tier schools then after she got tenure, she no longer listed it.

In other words, she ONLY listed her "Native American" status when she thought she might need "help." During the mid to late eighties and early nineties.

After corrections of her numbers, Elizabeth Warren appears to be LESS Native American than the average American. She exploited minority status to try to gain advantage.


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cattyles

“IMO, it would be fair to characterize Warren's DNA move as one big belly flop, but it has added a bit of comedy to the news and conversations today.“

Trump made a big old belly flop of a lost bet of one million bucks in front of the whole wide world. That belly flop? No twisting is going to change that. And now, let’s watch as he weasels out of the bet. Such comedy!

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chase_gw

"In other words, she ONLY listed her "Native American" status when she thought she might need "help." During the mid to late eighties and early nineties."

That is a totally false statement. Read the Globe article or continue to spread lies.

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Chi

She should write that she understands why he's denying it, and it's because he doesn't have a million dollars to give. That's what I would do!

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Stan Areted

Checked with Politifact and also Dana Perino on The Five in the last 45 minutes, Chase.

I stand by what I said until you prove different.

I don't read GLOBE.

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chase_gw

I did . I attached the article way up thread. Extensive investigative report. Thousands of documents and hundreds of interviews. At NO time did she ever use her claims of Native American heritage to her advantage.

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momj47(7A)

In October 2018, Senator Warren released a report
on a DNA analysis that was said to show a pure Native American ancestor
appeared in her ancestry “in the range of six to 10 generations ago.”

In September 2018, the Boston Globe published the results of an investigation
over whether Warren was hired at Harvard because “had decided to
self-identify as a Native American woman and Harvard saw a chance to
diversify the law faculty.” The Globe concluded that:


In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s
professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and
interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never
considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire
her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law
schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession,
the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman.

The Globe examined hundreds of documents, many of them never before
available, and reached out to all 52 of the law professors who are still
living and were eligible to be in [on the decision]. Some are Warren’s
allies. Others are not. Thirty-one agreed to talk to the Globe —
including the law professor who was, at the time, in charge of
recruiting minority faculty. Most said they were unaware of her claims
to Native American heritage and all but one of the 31 said those claims
were not discussed as part of her hire. One professor told the Globe he
is unsure whether her heritage came up, but is certain that, if it did,
it had no bearing on his vote on Warren’s appointment.

I guess Sen. Warren is just a really smart woman

Much smarter than Mr. Trump and his minions. I suspect that's why he doesn't like her. She's smarter than he is.

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Ann

Cattyles, Trump has a great number of belly flops, that's for sure! As far as the million dollar thing, he gave himself a great deal of wiggle room as he very specifically spelled out a DNA test during a debate and on stage, etc. But, knowing Trump, he may just decide to donate the million to charity, or not. Hard to say.

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Stan Areted

"Warren’s central offense dates back to the mid 1980s, when she first formally notified law school administrators that her family tree includes Native Americans. Warren said she grew up with family stories about both grandparents on her mother’s side having some Cherokee or Delaware blood.

That genealogical claim has zero documentary evidence to back it up, according to a PolitiFact review of news and newsletter databases back to 1986.

Before this controversy arose in 2012, there is no account that Warren spoke publicly of having Native American roots, although she called herself Cherokee in a local Oklahoma cookbook in 1984.

There is no dispute that Warren formally notified officials at the University of Pennsylvania and then Harvard claiming Native American heritage after she was hired.

Her detractors say she deployed a faux Native American connection to improve her chances of landing teaching jobs at two of the country’s top law schools. However, there is no proof Warren gained any special advantage in her career."--Politifact December 2017

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Stan Areted

I never said she gained an advantage, Chase.

She did report herself minority status in some instances, as I claimed.


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patriciae_gw(07)

Well, in a fact absent world it doesn't matter that Warren is exactly what she said she was. In a fact absent world her real accomplishments do not matter if you can some how imply she didn't deserve the positions she has held because she is exactly what she claimed to be because, well, because some people will not believe facts because what are facts anyway.

As per her DNA the person(Bustamante) who interpreted her DNA, whose particular expertise is interpreting Native DNA by the way for study purposes, says she had a really long segment on one of her chromosomes that is diagnostic for being native. That bit alone would do then job. Since he is an expert in the field and not someone found under a rock somewhere we ought to give his opinion credence. It is what he does.

Elizabeth Warren is also a world renown expert in her particular field of banking and finance...……...Why am I trying. This is not a fact based culture. The globe is not warming because I don't want that to be.

I am very much reminded of Obamas not being an American citizen. Something he had to prove in spite of being born in Hawaii. But prove? he says so, not enough. He provides a copy of his birth certificate, not good enough. The person in charge of birth certificates in Hawaii, a Republican no less, says she has personally viewed the ORIGINAL DOCUMENT, not good enough. Hawaii grants him the privilege of a copy of his original certificate-the long form, not good enough, Joe Arpaio took a posse to Hawaii looking for evidence that it was all a lie. He claimed he had earth shattering evidence that he was going to release but never did, If you are lucid you figure he was lying but if you are a conservative you very well believe him to this day because Joe Arpaio saying so is enough. Double check your beliefs based on this and be honest with yourself. Attack Elizabeth Warren on where she wants to take America. That might be too hard for you when smears are so easy.

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Chi

Some people will tear down any woman who dares to make these rich white men look bad. Proof or no proof, it doesn't seem to matter to them.

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Stan Areted

Oh, there's plenty of room to disagree with where Elizabeth Warren wants to take America. There is also room to call her out on her using undocumented family lore "minority status" when it suited her. She knew better. Anyone with half a brain--which she definitely has--would have known better.

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j4c_11


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Ann

OK, now that is funny j4:)

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chase_gw

Yes you did give me a break.......you really must think me stupid.

"In other words, she ONLY listed her "Native American" status when she thought she might need "help."

"She did report herself minority status in some instances, as I claimed"

She never ever used her claim to "help" her .

You go ahead and stand by your claims I will go with the facts. It is sad how far hate can push people to accept any story that supports their narrative.....even when demonstrably false

Edited

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patriciae_gw(07)

Not sciency sort of people? Don't believe one of THE experts in the field? You stand with Arpaio? Who needs facts.

So being a fact based person, prove to me that Warren Ever used her native American background to get anywhere or get anything?

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Ann

Huh, what does "Hes you did give me a break" mean? I'm not criticizing a typo, but sincerely wondering what was meant to be said.

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maifleur01

I can not believe that anyone with any sense would not know that there are no recipes that have not been duplicated at one time or another. I have had over a 1,000 cookbooks at one time and at any moment I could open two even in different languages and find the same recipes.

Mayflowers the thing about families not acknowledging having Native Americans in their family line is true. It carried forward until the late 1960's early 1970's with the back to the earth movement. Before then it was kept very quiet and if asked to check a box white was always checked except in a very few areas of this country.

I guess some on here do not know the difference between someone saying something and another publishing it. Warren said she was Native American ancestry which she was but institutions and others used it to prove that they were not racist and were finally accepting of Native Americans.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Warren has much more Native American heritage than either Joe Arpaio or me. We both stand at absolute zero.

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matthias_lang

My mate and I have a friend who has encouraged my mate to apply for membership in the Daughters of the American Revolution. She qualifies because one of 8,192 ancestors was in the revolution. That is 1/(2^13) or 0.0001220703125, a heck of a lot less than Warren's identified NA genetics, yet my wife is qualified for the DAR because of that tiny number. (But she says she used to wish she could find some Polish ancestry because there was a gymnastics club she could have and would like to have joined had that 1/(2^13) "drop of blood" been Polish.)

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Ann

Ah, Trump says he will make good on his bet if Warren ends up the nominee and if he is able to test her DNA.


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GOD

I am so enjoying the right wing meltdown over the fact that Warren's family history was correct.

Keep on melting, boys and girls!

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Oh crud!

Now they will haul off the fine ladies of Saint Anthony's for putting their favorite recipes (from their cookbooks) into new cookbook to raise funds for the parish.

Ten "Our Fathers" and ten "Hail Marys" for the lot of them.


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chase_gw

Ann, I quoted his sentence directly below my statement. I don't see what is confusing.

Perhaps I should have quoted more of his text but to be honest several posts intervened as I was posting and , quite frankly, I am sick and tired of this relentless effort to cling to a lie in the face of facts.

Done !!!!

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Ann

Oops Elizabeth, a leader of the Cherokee Nation is taking issue with Warren and saying it undermines their citizens and is inappropriate.

source: correspondent on Fox News (Bret Baier's show just now)

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chase_gw

"Ah, Trump says he will make good on his bet if Warren ends up the nominee and if he is able to test her DNA."

That wasn't they deal........

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Ann

Chase, when I read your comment, the first word said "Hes" instead of "Yes". I thought Hes was maybe a poster's name and I couldn't figure out who.

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chase_gw

Ok........hope I cleared it up

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Ann

The bet I saw was during a rally where Trump talked about tossing her a kit during a future debate and her doing it on stage. There may have been another time when he said he'd simply give a million if she ever did a DNA test, but I imagine we'll see it on the news, if so. And, if so, he should probably go ahead and contribute the million to charity, although I'm not sure he ever said a charity of her choosing. In any case, I trust the media will dig out all the video where he ever discussed it so we can see exactly what he said.

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chase_gw

The video has been shown several times today on CNN. He was very clear in what he said, and yes he said the charity of her choice

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CindyMac(8b)

Ann, I posted a video above (twice) where he says it plain as day.

Starts at the 3:14 mark.





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momj47(7A)

tossing her a kit during a future debate and her doing it on stage.

Clearly your Mr. Trump, and you, have no idea how this is done

SMH

he said he'd simply give a million if she ever did a DNA test

She's waiting for the million dollars

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Ziemia(6a)

I've seen the video shared 3 times, at least.

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catkinZ8a


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Ann

I think this Cherokee Nation opinion could turn this pretty sour for Warren and pretty quickly. It sound like they are not amused.

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Stan Areted

ROTF Ari Fleischer!

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CindyMac(8b)

Ann, did you watch the video? Did your hear Trump speak?


Now I'll ask myself ... why bother to communicate with someone who seems willfully obtuse?

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mayflowers

I can't wait for 2020 to see what fools trump and his supporters make of themselves in trying to attack the Dem candidate. You all are off to a good start!

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Ziemia(6a)

Unlike McCarthy's family, she did not use that ancestry to advance. The GOP pulled it out (Scott Brown) to diminish her.

"House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy’s family may have taken the lead for cartoonish villainy.

According to a Los Angeles Timesinvestigation, McCarthy’s brother-in-law William Wages was awarded more than $7 million in federal construction contracts since 2000 for his work on a number of military and government sites. "

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Ziemia(6a)

Everyone knows that Warren is not invoking tribal MEMBERSHIP, right? She has just determined her ancestry to rebut accusations made against her in political campaigns.

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GOD

The following information lists the blood requirements for eligibility for tribal membership.

TRIBEBLOOD QUANTUM REQUIRED FOR MEMBERSHIP


Absentee Shawnee1/4 degree Absentee Shawnee blood;

Apache1/8 degree total Indian blood;

Caddo1/8 degree Caddo blood;

CherokeeAny degree-Descendent of tribal member;

Cherokee-ShawneeAny degree-Descendent of tribal member;

Cheyenne-Arapaho1/4 degree with at least 1 enrolled parent;

ChickasawAny degree-Descendent of a tribal member;Choctaw

Any degree-Descendent of a tribal member;

The above tribes are for Oklahoma tribes only. If you have a question on out-of-state tribal requirements for eligibility, you should contact the tribal office in question.

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Ann

Interesting video on several levels. Hmmmm, who's mocking Native Americans, Elizabeth?

As far as what Trump said, we all need to see it in its entirety and unedited. There is no doubt he said he donate a million, but it was cuts from that part of his speech in this video.

Then, the issue of her actual Native American heritage comes into play. Does she have enough Native American heritage to fall within any definition of Native American heritage. Googling that just now, I found this:

"Most tribes require a specific percentage of Native “blood,” called blood quantum, in addition to being able to document which tribal member you descend from. Some tribes require as much as 25% Native heritage, and most require at least 1/16th Native heritage, which is one great-great grandparent."

I understand she said she wasn't a member of a tribe (well, duh!) but, come on, if she truly has half what the average American has, that's a ridiculous claim from the start.

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GOD

Link ( continued list ) http://thorpe.ou.edu/OILS/blood.html

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mayflowers

Tell it to her grandparents, Ann.

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Göndul

Ann, I wouldn't be amused if I were Cherokee and had to endure this white woman using my minority status to get ahead in life and claim that because sometime in the 1800s, some Native American dna was introduced.

BTW, that could be Mexican, Chilean or Guatamalan.

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CindyMac(8b)


Unedited. What's your next excuse?





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Göndul

At what point did Warren's silly PR campaign prove her claims of Cherokee?

Ann, she also claimed to be Delaware.

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catkinZ8a

Cherokee Nation statement:

On the same day that U.S. Sen. Elizabeth Warren released DNA results that she says prove her Native American heritage, the Cherokee Nation called DNA tests useless for determining tribal citizenship.

"Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong," said Chuck Hoskin Jr., the tribe's secretary of state.

"It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven."

https://newsok.com/article/5611759/cherokee-nation-slams-elizabeth-warrens-dna-test-as-inappropriate-and-wrong



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j4c_11

I would think Democrats would be yelling cultural appropriation by now. But nope, their programming only allows criticism of conservatives.

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Ziemia(6a)

Warren is NOT claiming tribal membership.

She is NOT "laying claim."

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Ann

Thanks Cindy. I've got to say, he did clearly say, "In the middle of the debate". I thought I had remembered that correctly. I think her arranging her own test, showing possibly as little as 1/1000 Native American (and half that of the average American) and not even close to the amount required by ANY tribe, just doesn't cut it. No wonder the Cherokee Nation leader is coming forth with criticism!

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roxsol

The truly bad part is not what her claim is, but that Trump called her “Pocahontas” when her name is “Elizabeth”.

It is disrespectful.

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deegw

The pro-Trumpster's endless quests to find various ways to spin this as something different than a cluster of Trump's own making is comical.

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chase_gw

"had to endure this white woman using my minority status to get ahead in life"

Except she didn't .......but the Trump supporters are truth adverse and that is what will bring them down

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Ziemia(6a)

She did nothing ever to advance based on her ancestry.

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CindyMac(8b)

The pro-Trumpster's endless quests to find various ways to spin this as something different than a cluster of Trump's own making is comical.


Just showcases how pathetic they really are. Incapable of saying, "damn he screwed up. He owes some charity a million bucks."

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adoptedbyhounds

If ancestry is an acceptable reason for awarding points to an applicant, why not reserve that advantage for an actual Native American and not a privileged white woman with a mere trace of Native American DNA?

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Ann

d_w, Trump got right smack in the middle of this when he "named" her Pocahontas (and I'll agree it's disrespectful), but this situation is entirely of her making! Calling her out on it was completely fair game, but the Pocahontas name was not needed to do so.

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Ann

Adoptedbyhounds, exactly!

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chase_gw

Ann, how was this of her making ? Do you have any idea how this started? I'm betting not

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GOD

Calling her out for knowing her own ancestors!

She's part native american!

She won, you lost trump!

no wonder the trumpsters are going nuts

LOLAT!

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j4c_11

On average, the scientists found, people who identified as African-American had genes that were only 73.2 percent African. European genes accounted for 24 percent of their DNA, while .8 percent came from Native Americans.

Latinos, on the other hand, had genes that were on average 65.1 percent European, 18 percent Native American, and 6.2 percent African. The researchers found that European-Americans had genomes that were on average 98.6 percent European, .19 percent African, and .18 Native American.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/25/science/23andme-genetic-ethnicity-study.html

Elizabeth Warren, with her 0.098% native DNA, has less native DNA than the average European-American. Not only is she not native, she's whiter than average LOL

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GOD

LOL!


Talk about survey bias:

Jeffrey C. Long, an anthropologist at the University of New Mexico who was not involved in the study, cautioned that the research was not based on a random sample of Americans. Instead, Dr. Mountain and her colleagues studied only people who were curious enough about their DNA to pay for a test.




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chase_gw

"If ancestry is an acceptable reason for awarding points to an applicant, why not reserve that advantage for an actual Native American and not a privileged white woman with a mere trace of Native American DNA?""

Except she NEVER did that.... NEVER......what is it about the truth that is so hard to accept? Have either of you read the Boston Globe report last September that examined thousands of documents and interviewed hundreds of people? Everyone is lying ?

If you have any sense of wanting the truth go read it......otherwise hold on to the lies

An excerpt


" The Globe reported that interviews and documents show the issue was not considered by Harvard Law faculty or those who admitted Warren to law school at Rutgers or to jobs at the University of Houston, the University of Texas and the University of Pennsylvania.

“She was not on the radar screen at all in terms of a racial minority hire,” Randall Kennedy, a law professor who was in charge of recruiting minority candidates to Harvard Law School, told the newspaper. “It was just not an issue. I can’t remember anybody ever mentioning her in this context.”

The Globe reported that it examined hundreds of documents, many never before available, and talked to 31 law school professors from that period at Harvard. All but one said her Native American heritage was not discussed as part of the decision to hire her. One said he was unsure if the issue came up, but if it did, it had no bearing on his vote."

Further in the article it says she identified herself as Caucasian on ALL applications and forms relative to any apl@ications

I actually give up....it is abundantly clear that there is a faction that willfully ignores facts in favour of a narrative they are fed by Trump, the State run media and fringe internet sites. They seem totally incapable of reaching beyond the propaganda in search of the truth ....


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roxsol

No matter of how it started,the name calling is disrespectful and unprofessional.

After Trump proclaimed he was a “stable genius” can you imagine if other politicians referred to him as “Einstein”?

eta Or Mr. Smartypants?

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Göndul

A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship," said Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin, Jr. in the statement. "Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person's ancestors were indigenous to North or South America. Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation."

Hoskin added, "Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is prove."

"Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage," the statement concludes.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/37161/cherokee-nation-responds-warrens-dna-test-it-isnt-amanda-prestigiacomo


Ouch. Warren is so tone deaf she doesn't even realize just how tone deaf she is. The privileged white women decrying injustice to Native Americans is offensive as all get out, and she doesn't even realize it.

It's so...what's the word? Patronizing.

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Göndul

Have you seen Warren's commercial? Heck, she's even co-opting Trump's Kavanaugh beer swilling red necks!

There she is, a very wealthy white woman, just a sittin' on the porch of the humble home with old, toxic white males...lol.

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mayflowers

DNA testing could prove that many of us are not who we think we are. Have you ever watched Finding Your Roots? Everyone has family lore, and the people on that show often find that the family history they have always believed as true is often proven false through DNA testing and records research. Chances are many of us here have claimed a heritage that is not really ours but it's what we had been told.

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queenmargo

Earlier I made a comment about Warren being on the war path and it got poofed. The outrage was bestowed upon me.

Funny, I just heard Tucker Carlson say that Warren is on the war path. I wonder if he gets his talking points from me.

mom- should Tucker be censored for saying that? Should he?

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CindyMac(8b)

DNA testing could prove that many of us are not who we think we are.

I'm sure some would refuse to believe it, especially if the findings didn't fit their preconceived notions of who they were.

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queenmargo

I'm sure some would refuse to believe it, especially if the findings didn't fit their preconceived notions of who they were.

Well, you are sure right on that one with all the on a whim self identifying going on.

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Göndul

margie, funny how the self-identifying left suddenly wants to cling to science and genes making who we are immutable.


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CindyMac(8b)

I remember when Carly Simon found out she was 10% black. Turns out that's not so unusual.


https://www.theroot.com/how-many-white-people-are-passing-1790874972

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cattyles

The left have always been fans of science. And history. We notice when it's misrepresented.

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Ann

Chase, she listed it on applications in her 30s, just as she was moving up in her career. Prior to that, she had never put it on an application. Her actual file from her Harvard Law faculty years has not been released, the only released documents have been those of her choosing. So, it's possible her claim of Native American heritage wasn't considered, but the most important file has not been released. But, I guess a person should be considered innocent until proven guilty, right everyone! Under that premise, we'll assume her Native American claim was not part of their consideration, because, again, all are innocent until proven guilty and we've sure seen a recent example of that premise being ignored.

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Ann

If, her claimed heritage wasn't considered, it most certainly wasn't because of Warren. She listed it!

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chase_gw

Ann, show some facts....... I can't do this anymore with you.

Clearly you are ignoring the very comprehensive Boston Globe piece in favor of some , heaven knows what , information. SHE NEVER USED ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HER HERITAGE TO HER BENEFIT PROFESSIONALLY. Unless you can provide factual information that disputes that then your opinion and that it FOX is simply that..an opinion based on nada

Wish I could find a Republican who is interested in a facts based discussion......why are there none here?

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Ann

Margie, Tucker changed Pocahontas to Fauxcahontas. Sort of fitting, I'd say.

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queenmargo

Göndul

margie, funny how the self-identifying left suddenly wants to cling to science and genes making who we are immutable.

So funny isn't it.

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queenmargo

LOL Ann, I missed that. Good one!

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queenmargo

Ann, I can't do this anymore with you.

priceless lol

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Ann

Margie, :)

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An (PNW 6b)

Chase, I’ve been hopeful of the same thing. It’s not going to happen. Too much animosity on both sides I think. Which is really a shame - I enjoy discussions with others that have different viewpoints. In fact, I change my opinion at times based on discussions with those both more progressive and conservative than I am. Hot Topics just isn’t that kind of environment right now.

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chase_gw

When you scratch the surface you scratch the bottom.......

It's true I can't do this anymore wth you...there is no substance to the argument . Enjoy your Trump bubble

ETA I have tried very hard to have discussions, to honestly answer questions, to never call anyone here names like racists but there is never an inch given never. Just barbs and memes and sarcastic comments.......have at it

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Ann

Chase, I just went back and reviewed your link that discussed the Boston Globe story and nothing there disputes the report I heard from Tucker's guest that her actual employment file has not been released or seen. I don't think our stories contain any discrepancies. My only addition to your info is that her actual employment file has not been released, published or reviewed. Again, I have no clue if it would show any consideration was given to her heritage claim (a claim she had left out prior to that point in her life).

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Ann

Chase, I like the truth too and it seems to be annoying you that I have simply provided one more fact to the very same story. I'm not disputing your story or the Boston Globe info. I'm merely adding to it and not simply "buying" your conclusion, which appears to be based on slightly less than the entire set of data.

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chase_gw

If you really care about the truth read the full Globe report...do some research on it. I only provided a link to a review by the Guardian

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Ann

Then, you say "there is never an inch given never" and I simply don't get that. It sounds as if you feel that others are somehow compelled to agree with you and your interpretation of a set of data. I don't need to agree with your political views and I don't accept incomplete facts that may be effective in twisting a story (or maybe not, as the employment file may be consistent with your conclusion). But, even that conclusion of yours if very specifically ignoring that Warren included that heritage info on her application at that point in her life and it hadn't previously been included. I think that is highly pertinent in at least suggesting a level of questionable intent on her part.

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Göndul

I don't think it matters any longer if Warren did benefit from listing herself as Cherokee or Native American. She has lived a somewhat to very privileged white life, as a very white woman, as a white majority, and has allowed herself to stoop to the level of using a drop of NA or NA proxy dna 10 generations removed to claim she rightly can claim to be Indian.

All to get back at Trump.


That makes her and her Vaseline-smeared ad look petty and vindictive, in a time when the concept of race is viewed as a social construct and not "in the blood".

Further, aside from boasting, Warren has never lived the culture, nor the burden, of being Native American.

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jodik_gw

Chase, did you really expect the conversation to go any other way?

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Ann

Didn't you say above that you couldn't find the Globe report? The story is being heavily covered this evening in great detail. I'm happy to read the Globe report, but I'm hearing a slew of detailed info on the story, so I'm feeling up to date. Do you think the Globe has said something in conflict to what I've said in my comments? Did the Globe specifically say the actual employment file has been released and reviewed? Did the Globe story say she had previously reported her heritage as she reportedly first did in her 30s once her career path was underway? I'm more than happy to be corrected if anything I've said is wrong, unless multiple reliable sources have different stories, in which case, the discrepancies would need further investigation.

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chase_gw

No I didn't say I coudn't find it...I said I couldn' t post it. It's there , you do your own research if you care........not my job to educate you

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Ann

It's hard when people don't simply accept what you want them too, especially if lacking in detail, right? Well, no it's not. That's the way it should go. We should get to the actual details. People like Hillary shouldn't use a hammer to destroy devices. Fake dossiers shouldn't be created to create traps. Sleazy FBI agents shouldn't plot to influence elections and then create back up plots to attempt to destroy the real winner when their original plan/plot didn't play out as expected. FISA warrants should be valid and warranted. Young women shouldn't falsify application information.

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Ann

I feel properly educated on the topic. I also agree with what you posted, up to the point where you drew a biased (IMO) conclusion from slightly less than complete data. Warren was clearly up to no good (or at least an unfair advantage) with her heritage game and it backfired.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

To assert that Warren exploited her Native American heritage is to be willfully ignorant of her recognized expertise in her field.


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heri_cles

Ann:

You have been informed by talking points. That is not "educated."

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Kitchenwitch111

Trump and his supporters keep up this narrative because it fits with their beliefs about minorities and women cheating the system to their advantage against the white man who rightfully belongs at the top.

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dandyfopp

Yes Virginia, Donnie, as usual, is both bone ignorant and wrong.

Every thinking person already knows it.

His fans would eat a dung sundae if he handed them a spoon.

Don't bother with them.

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Ziemia(6a)

Ann, are you trying to be funny? Because you keep misstating facts.

Warren did not identify herself as NA on any application for admission OR for a job at any of the Universities where she worked.


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Ann

Nancy, this situation has nothing at all to do with her expertise in her field.

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Ziemia(6a)

People have dug through the relevant (now quite old) documents and cannot find one showing she didn't present herself as white. One institution had to document why they hired a white person when several qualified minorities were on the short list.

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chase_gw

Yes that's in the Boston Globe report last September. One of the universities actually had to defend why they hired her instead of a minority.....and the actual documents they had to provide are contained in the article

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patriciae_gw(07)

Like I said, compare this to Obama being a citizen. Willful ignorance says it all.

Just ignore the expert , you know better. Ignore the University staffs who hired her, you know better. Ignore what she has actually said, you know better. Ignore her scholastic reputation, Ignore what Harvard has had to say about it all, they used to have a web posting about it

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cattyles

I realize that the debate is interesting. But not a soul on the planet is going to feel differently about Trump or Warren because of this whole big deal.

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Ann

Ziemia, she listed herself as a "minority" on a job application, and 3 years later requested that her listed ethnicity be changed to "Native American".

"The Globe noted that Warren listed herself as a “minority” before Penn offered her a job. However, the law school’s dean and affirmative action officer wrote in a 1987 equal opportunity compliance statement form that Warren was the best candidate for her job despite being “white.”

The report also noted that nearly three years after she took the Penn job, she asked the university to change her listed ethnicity to “Native American.” A 2005 university publication noting a teaching award that she won a decade earlier listed her as a minority, the Globe added."


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heri_cles


tRump and his supporters have the audacity to accuse others like Senator Warren of exploiting the rules? tRump was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I'd like to see what Fred did to get his son into schools and out of the Draft.

Oh sure, Don the Dictator is a self made man in business as well, only getting one million, errrr over 400 million from his father. including gift loans and bail-outs.


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Stan Areted

chase__gw

Stan Areted:

"In other words, she ONLY listed her "Native American" status when she thought she might need "help." During the mid to late eighties and early nineties."

That is a totally false statement. Read the Globe article or continue to spread lies.


No, it is NOT a "totally false statement."

I'm NOT SPREADING LIES, Chase.

This is what I said:

"Apparently Elizabeth Warren did not list her "Native American" status when applying to lower tier schools, she did list minority status when applying to higher tier schools then after she got tenure, she no longer listed it.

In other words, she ONLY listed her "Native American" status when she thought she might need "help." During the mid to late eighties and early nineties.

After corrections of her numbers, Elizabeth Warren appears to be LESS Native American than the average American. She exploited minority status to try to gain advantage."

Others have said the same thing.

SO what are the "lies" in what I said?

THEN you came back with this, I do not know what you "edited."

Chase__gw

"Yes you did give me a break.......you really must think me stupid.

"In other words, she ONLY listed her "Native American" status when she thought she might need "help."

"She did report herself minority status in some instances, as I claimed"

She never ever used her claim to "help" her .

You go ahead and stand by your claims I will go with the facts. It is sad how far hate can push people to accept any story that supports their narrative.....even when demonstrably false


Get this straight--I don't hate anyone, and don't you imply that I do.

I'm not accepting any story--I posted what I had read AND heard from different sources. I even posted later:

"I never said she gained an advantage, Chase.

She did report herself minority status in some instances, as I claimed."

So what is the lie? Where is the "hate?"

Others have posted the same thing I did.

So what is the problem?

The point is that Elizabeth Warren presented herself as a minority status in some cases in her employment--not all.

Show me where that is a lie.

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Ann

Ziemia, another source (The Boston Globe today):

"During her academic career as a law professor, she had her ethnicity changed from white to Native American at the University of Pennsylvania Law School, where she taught from 1987 to 1995, and at Harvard University Law School, where she was a tenured faculty member starting in 1995. (She was a visiting professor at Harvard during the 1992-1993 academic year.)"

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Kathy

It is totally mind boggling how Reps can make a short list of minor indescretions by a number of Dems but ignore the possible criminal activity by Republicans. It’s only a problem when it’s Dems?

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cattyles

I don't understand why anyone feels like we need to defend Warren to Trump supporters. All of the facts are there. They're just messing with us.

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Kathy

I agree. The GOP is afraid she will run for President so they have to create a pile of derogatory info. Just like they did when they thought Hillary would run. Only that was 30 years of witch hunts.

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Stan Areted

I don't think anyone needs to "defend" Warren.

I think posters shouldn't accuse posters of spreading lies and hating when they've done neither.

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Kathy

It’s only a lie when you do it on purpose. We should be accusing Fox, that’s true. They spread the news for RT and Trump.

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Ziemia(6a)

Ann - that change (UT) was made AFTER the application / hiring process was completed (Hired at UT in 81). (UPenn started recruiting her in 1984 - these dates are relevant.)

When you say she checked "minority" - which application? At U of Houston she checked "other" (choices included only Black, Oriental, Mexican American, or Other). At UT (1981), she checked white.

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Ann

The change from minority to Native American was. So, what was the "minority" she listed on the application?

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heri_cles

The point is that Elizabeth Warren presented herself as a minority status in some cases in her employment--not all.

So what? What difference did it make? An affirmative action hire or a promotion based on ethnic heritage? Or is that just speculation? like someone other than Kavanaugh, perhaps a body double, sexually assaulted Ford?

------------------------

But who would do that?

"Fred Trump sought to pass himself off as
Swedish amid anti-German sentiment sparked by World War II. According
to the biography "The Trumps: Three Generations that Built an Empire" by
Gwenda Blair, Fred Trump denied knowing German and did not teach it to
his children.

In his book, "The Art of the Deal,"
Donald Trump reaffirmed the myth of his family's origins, writing that
his father's father came to America "from Sweden as a child."

In reality, Fred Trump's father, Friedrich Trump, immigrated to the United States from the German city of Kallstadt
as a teenager in 1885. Blair writes in her biography that Friedrich
Trump went on to establish several saloons and hotels that doubled as
brothels.

One German historian alleges that the Trump patriarch was kicked out of Germany for failing to complete mandatory military service and as such was not able to reclaim his German citizenship.

When asked by the Boston Globe why his
father claimed he was Swedish, Donald Trump said, "Well, he spent time
in Sweden. And he talked about Swedish because of the fact, you know, we
happened to be at war with Germany, which I guess makes sense in a lot
of ways doesn't it? But he spent time in Sweden."

When
the Globe pressed him as to why he maintained the false story, he said,
"Well, it was never really something discussed. My father spent a lot
of time there. But it was never really something really discussed very
much."

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/28/politics/trump-family-heritage/index.html




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heri_cles

Fred was a German who wore the white hooded robe marching with the KKK.

Yea, good people on both sides.....sure.... right....like your old man.

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Ziemia(6a)

Ann, you said she marked 'minority' on some application. I don't find that info anywhere - so why did you say she did that? Which application?

Ann

2 hours ago

Ziemia, she listed herself as a "minority" on a job application, and 3 years later requested that her listed ethnicity be changed to "Native American".

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

My mom's side of the family can document (and has, with an extensive effort by highly respected genealogists contracted by the family in order to compile their findings into a published hardbound book which was updated with two additional published genealogies to clarify earlier details and expand on information uncovered following the original genealogy publishing) our heritage beginning with its earliest documented origins of 1482 in Germany and 1732 arrival in the country that is now known as America. The family movements around the end of the revolutionary war as they made their way to the location that bears the family name would have required permission from the Cherokee mounted police* for the 30+ family members to travel through there and settle so close to the border of lands granted to the Cherokee by the Federal government. The historians of our family by mutual consent agreed not to publicly discuss
specific subjects. In correspondence, they agreed not
to publish anything that would embarrass or bring reproach on the family though these letters were later lost in a fire - but not before a later family historian had the opportunity to see and read them. As part of the westward expansion following the revolutionary war, the family settled in what is now part of Alabama, spending 8 years living side by side with the Cherokee before the federal government began the push to move the Native Americans out of the region - most likely thanks to two Cherokee women who married into the family and helped bring the next generation of family members into existence, a situation that would have not been viewed a positive thing by other White settlers coming to the territory who were very much against 'race mixing'.

Whatever my DNA ancestry might show, and while I don't think I meet the requirements for officially claiming tribal membership, I know my family history and based on the entirety of the information available I know that I have Cherokee blood that was introduced generations ago - a chapter of the book that tells the story of my family.


*"...For their helping the colonies during the War of Independence, the Cherokee
Indians were allowed to establish an independent nation within the United
States. The capital of the Cherokee Nation was Echota. This was near present
Calhoun, Georgia. There was a mounted police force to prevent white settlers
from entering the Cherokee Nation. The land in the Cherokee Nation was the
southern part of the Smoky Mountains in Tennessee, North Carolina and Georgia.
The land in the Big Bend of the Tennessee River in North Alabama was included in
the Cherokee Nation.

In 1805-06, the Cherokees ceded back to the United States the land in present
Lauderdale County, Limestone County and the western part of Madison County.

Mississippi became a territory in 1806. The land in the Mississippi territory
included most of the present Alabama. The ceded land in the Big Bend became a
part of the Mississippi Territory. The Cherokee land in Eastern Madison County
and in Jackson County was never a part of the Mississippi Territory..."


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azmom

Jenn Codename:Danger, Thank you for sharing those interesting history associated with your family.

Ann,

You have been putting out lots of mumbo jumbo, none makes sense, what exactly are you arguing about?

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mayflowers

As a teacher and a Senator, she has led a life of public service, which is more than we can say about her critics.

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mrskjun(9)

Elizabeth Warren should apologize to the Cherokee and Delaware nations and move on. The story she told about how her fathers parents didn't want him to marry her mother because she was a Cherokee and Delaware Indian, the cookbook where she listed her name and put Cherokee beside it. Listing herself as Native American on anything for any reason. She did herself no favors with this DNA test other than cause herself embarrassment. Time to move on.

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Ann

Ziemia, the University of Penn faculty position.


"The Globe noted that Warren listed herself as a “minority” before Penn offered her a job. However, the law school’s dean and affirmative action officer wrote in a 1987 equal opportunity compliance statement form that Warren was the best candidate for her job despite being “white.”

The report also noted that nearly three years after she took the Penn job, she asked the university to change her listed ethnicity to “Native American.” A 2005 university publication noting a teaching award that she won a decade earlier listed her as a minority, the Globe added."

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Ann

Kathy, Republicans would simply LOVE for Warren to be the Dem nominee!

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Ann

Mrskjun, I agree. I do not think yesterday was a good day for Warren and I certainly don't think it turned out the way she hoped.

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Göndul

mrskjun(9)

Elizabeth
Warren should apologize to the Cherokee and Delaware nations and move
on. The story she told about how her fathers parents didn't want him to
marry her mother because she was a Cherokee and Delaware Indian, the
cookbook where she listed her name and put Cherokee beside it.
Listing
herself as Native American on anything for any reason. She did herself
no favors with this DNA test other than cause herself embarrassment.
Time to move on.

Warren needs to apologize to the French chef she poached those recipes from.

Apparently, the Cherokee in OK ate a lot of crab.


I agree that Warren should just apologize for further using Indian tribes and admit she just didn't know better back when she thought "lore" meant she had to right to materially claim she was anything other than what she is, which is whitey white white white.

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Göndul

Ann

Mrskjun,
I agree. I do not think yesterday was a good day for Warren and I
certainly don't think it turned out the way she hoped.

Warren only managed to appear petty and vindictive in her tone deaf using of Native Americans. She proved she's got less NA than the average American of similar descent.

That's millions and millions of Americans.

Warren was quickly condemned by Native Americans shortly after she released her "gotcha" ad.

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Stan Areted

But Elizabeth won't.

It's HER turn.

We've seen this movie before.

The failure of posters to recognize that other people do not necessarily jump to conclusions with certain information is rampant. Tapla--Al noted this a few days ago when he encountered resistance to his own thoughts and conclusions and it was implied that he was not using his otherwise known-to-be-working-in-science-and-gardening-matters brain because he did not come to the same conclusions as a more liberal poster.

Al very eloquently pointed out this arrogant assumption, and we've seen it here again. Both Ann and I posted the same information about Elizabeth Warren's use of minority status. We did not make claims that she benefited from it--and in fact, she could have benefited from it because we don't have those records. But that aside--say she didn't--the fact that she culturally appropriated Native American status when obviously most anyone one of us could have and maybe had more of a right to do so, was blatantly attempting to game the system to her advantage when she thought she might need it--the very thing Warren rails about corporate America.

THAT was the point.

My observation is that conservatives as a whole recognize that not everyone comes to the same conclusion and we frankly don't care--we don't need to prove ourselves right, we don't need for anyone else to agree with us. We are confident in our abilities to research, analyze, weigh information and come to our own conclusions. We generally aren't emotional and do not sigh, protest or flounce just because another human doesn't see things the way we do. Believe what you want--this is the United States and diversity is GOOD thing--not just people, but diversity of THOUGHT. It's quite ironic this seems to be lost on a political faction that cannot just leave it alone that someone else thinks differently--they must insult them and disparage them. Now, they must silence them and on every level.

That's what is happening in this country and it is now turning violent.

It starts with irrational frustration and an obvious need to be "right."

It escalates and is approaching fever pitch right now--it's not just dissension, it's physical, it is rude, it is disruptive, it is intolerant, it is mean, and it is frightening.

There is not always a "right" in viewing information and having opinions and situations or people. There is a right in freedom of expression, the first amendment, and the tradition of our country to say what we believe without fear of blantant lies and physical violence.

I pray for our country and all of our citizens.




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Ann

Excellent points, Stan.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

So "Pocahontas" should apologize, now that's a real Hoot.

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maifleur01

Wow so much misunderstanding of DNA and genealogy it boggles the mind. Wonder if the posters know that the names of tribes have changed over the years. If they know that your genes are not split down the middle? Too bad they are not willing or want to learn anything other than what they think is true. So sad.

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Göndul

Stan Areted

But Elizabeth won't.

It's HER turn.

We've seen this movie before.

The failure of posters to recognize that other people do not
necessarily jump to conclusions with certain information is rampant.
Tapla--Al noted this a few days ago when he encountered resistance to
his own thoughts and conclusions and it was implied that he was not
using his otherwise known-to-be-working-in-science-and-gardening-matters
brain because he did not come to the same conclusions as a more liberal
poster.

Al very eloquently pointed out this arrogant assumption, and we've
seen it here again. Both Ann and I posted the same information about
Elizabeth Warren's use of minority status. We did not make claims that
she benefited from it--and in fact, she could have benefited from it
because we don't have those records. But that aside--say she
didn't--the fact that she culturally appropriated Native American status
when obviously most anyone one of us could have and maybe had more of a
right to do so, was blatantly attempting to game the system to her
advantage when she thought she might need it--the very thing Warren
rails about corporate America.

THAT was the point.

My observation is that conservatives as a whole recognize that not
everyone comes to the same conclusion and we frankly don't care--we
don't need to prove ourselves right, we don't need for anyone else to
agree with us. We are confident in our abilities to research, analyze,
weigh information and come to our own conclusions. We generally aren't
emotional and do not sigh, protest or flounce just because another human
doesn't see things the way we do. Believe what you want--this is the
United States and diversity is GOOD thing--not just people, but
diversity of THOUGHT. It's quite ironic this seems to be lost on a
political faction that cannot just leave it alone that someone else
thinks differently--they must insult them and disparage them. Now, they
must silence them and on every level.

That's what is happening in this country and it is now turning violent.

It starts with irrational frustration and an obvious need to be "right."

It escalates and is approaching fever pitch right now--it's not just
dissension, it's physical, it is rude, it is disruptive, it is
intolerant, it is mean, and it is frightening.

There is not always a "right" in viewing information and having
opinions and situations or people. There is a right in freedom of
expression, the first amendment, and the tradition of our country to say
what we believe without fear of blantant lies and physical violence.

I pray for our country and all of our citizens.


Great post, Stan. In a nutshell, you've put a fine point on the difference between independent, intellectually honest thinkers and the leftist sheeple mentality.

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GOD

My god, the right wingers are obsessed

LOL, they can't help themselves! Facts kill them.

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paprikash

Amen, Stan! Wish I could give your post 100 “likes“

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deegw

The pro-Trumpsters see a validation echo chamber in Stan's post. I see an attempt to twist into verbal knots to disguise projection and hypocrisy.

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mudhouse

Outstanding post, Stan. Thank you for posting it.

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Kathy


Its about time the GOP is getting some pushback for their actions and that of their “leader”.

Projection

It escalates and is approaching fever pitch right now--it's not just dissension, it's physical, it is rude, it is disruptive, it is intolerant, it is mean, and it is frightening.

I pray for our country too.

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Joaniepoanie

So if the right is so confident in their research abilities, how come they're dead wrong all the time? We see it here everyday. The right is nothing but emotion in their fervored defense of Trump and belief in everything he says....which are mostly provable lies. And your "research" is based on conspiracy theories and Faux, Breitbart, etc....RW sites.

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justerrilynn(10)

Liz has made public comments about how her family was discriminated against over their Indian heritage. She really is a kook. She has so little of either South America Indian or North American (not known) that the Indian ancestor 7 to 10 generations back was only part Indian.

Anyway, the real Indians aren't happy.

Cherokee Nation responds to Warren's DNA test.

https://www.cherokee.org/News/Stories/20181015_Cherokee-Nation-responds-to-Senator-Warrens-DNA-test

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queenmargo

Warren just lost the Indian voters. LOL- they don't want to be associated with such cray!

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foodonastump

The other day CNN had Warren as top pick for Dems, 2020. I’ve never felt she stood a chance (purely my opinion) so if this knocks her from pole position at least some good will have come of it.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Warren just lost the Indian voters. LOL- they don't want to be associated with such cray!

You just keep telling yourself that....I bet it soothes you.

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Göndul

I saw another poll which had Warren in single digits, I think just ahead of Spartacus, but well behind Joe Biden.

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foodonastump

Göndul - This wasn’t a poll, it’s their current predictions. They revise the list monthly.

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Göndul

Thank you, food. I was wondering why the big difference.

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Ann

FOAS, are there any particular candidates you are hoping do well in the primary process?

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Ann

Of the group discussing running, I do think Biden would stand the best chance. But, I also wonder if that could go like McCain against Obama where McCain just didn't have enough appeal - kind of milk toast next to Obama.

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Ann

I really think Bernie could have won in 2016, but I don't think he's the man of the moment anymore like he was in 2016.

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foodonastump

Really a topic for a different thread, Ann, but the answer is no. I have a couple I don’t want to see, but not sure who I do want to see.

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Ann

Do you want to discuss those you don't want to see? The Warren heritage topic has kind of fizzled as it's yesterday's news, lol:)

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momj47(7A)

Do you want to discuss those you don't want to see?

Do you really think we believe that you care?

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Ann

J47, I thoroughly enjoyed discussing all the candidates prior to the 2016 election. I was just thinking about that today - that when the shoe was on the other foot and the Republican candidates were interesting (since Hillary was such a given to become the Dem nominee), the talk from both sides (about all those Republican candidates) was plentiful and lively. There is this odd resistance to discuss anything on the left and it surprises me. I'd think it would be a very hot topic and a good discussion, and one the left would be excited to discuss. Not much to discuss on the Republican side because the chances Trump will be the party's candidate are so high. I don't think he'll have Republican challengers in 2020 or, if a few venture in, they won't gain steam.

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Big idiot opened his mouth and made a claim with a challenge. Now we find out he was wrong. Everything else his supporters are throwing into the conversation is bs and a way of deflecting away from just how wrong he was...Now he says he will accept evidence from a test only he administers. We all know that's a big stall on his part... And very creepy.

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Ann

Interesting, speaking of Dem candidates, Shep has a chart up right now of "2020 Prospects". There are a few on the list I'll have to learn more about, like Garcetti, Inslee, and Buttigieg.

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momj47(7A)

J47, I thoroughly enjoyed discussing all the candidates prior to the 2016 election. I was just thinking about that today

Oh please, cut the BS

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Someone needs to get up out of their barcalounger and turn off the fox news...

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momj47(7A)

So, mrskjun, how much native American blood do you have, are aren't you an "average American"?

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foodonastump

I’d only have to go back three generations for Jewish blood, and while I might mention that from time to time (mainly because it’s a slightly amusing story at this point) it would never cross my mind to include that on any document. That’s my personal point of reference on the matter.

Ann, I don’t know if Bernie could have won, but I don’t think the energy behind him could be recreated. I also feel he helped Clinton lose, so I’m done with him. Along with him and Warren, you can scratch Booker off my list.

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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

Quite honestly, Elizabeth Warren lied. She is not native american. This woman has no shame. She never claimed to be a Native American. The only liar is you.

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Ann

I agree that sometimes you just can't recreate energy at a later date. I don't think Booker and Warren are the right choices either. Granted, I'll want Trump to win and I'm a Republican, but my reasons for agreeing with you have nothing to do with that. A candidate just has to have a certain "it" factor. Good examples are Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Reagan, Obama, and Trump (others too but those come to mind quickly). Love them or hate them, each had an important "it" factor. Each very different from one another, but they all garnered support in an impressive way.

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Ann

I don't see Trump sharing money meant for his campaign.

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Ann

"Someone needs to get up out of their barcalounger and turn off the fox news..."

Lol, I don't have a Barcalounger but my sofa is functioning as one. I've caught a bad cold and, besides feeling rotten, I'm trying not to share all my germs with the world right now. I try to do my best to not pass around illnesses when it's not necessary to be out and about. Believe me, I can't wait to return to my normal schedule and I really wish I was with my husband on the golf course right now instead of on my "Barcalounger" with Fox News:)

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Ann, my comment was aimed at another poster... But if the shoe fits...

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Ann

Unfortunately, the shoe does fit for the last few days:)

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Göndul

Feel better, Ann.


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momj47(7A)

I don't see Trump sharing money meant for his campaign.

You don't get it, do you?

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queenmargo

rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Ann, my comment was aimed at another poster... But if the shoe fits...

I don't have a barcalounger either

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momj47(7A)

It's a rhetorical comment Margo

Let me explain

rhetorical - said in a somewhat deprecatory sense, spoken for effect

You don't really have to have a lounger, of any kind, to turn off Fox "News".

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Okay Margie, a lazyboy....

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queenmargo

LOL- thank you for nothing new

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momj47(7A)

You can still turn off Fox "News".

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momj47(7A)

You are wrong Mary.

But then anyone who supports Mr. Trump is pretty much wrong all the time anyway.

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queenmargo

LOL mom- why do you care that I care? LOL

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queenmargo

momj47(7A)

You are wrong Mary.

Is not!

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maifleur01

So Mary if you have an ancestor of one culture you can not claim to have that culture in your ancestry. Sounds a little odd or perhaps only hearing others on here claiming Warren is something when she only claimed that she had ancestors that were of that culture.

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foodonastump

Whether or not she “benefited” from it, she represented herself as a Native American to the point that she was identified by Harvard Law School as an example of a minority, in defense of their faculty’s lack of diversity.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1996/10/22/survey-diversity-lacking-at-hls-pa/


Perhaps she could issue an apology while Trump issues his check.

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maifleur01

food did you ever think that it was Harvard wanting to be seen as more diverse that took her saying that she had Native American ancestry and used it for their own purposes. I do wonder if I should stop referring to my German, English, French, Irish, etc. ancestries when I mention what my ancestors were? Food and others do you have a good term since most of my ancestors 80-90% were here before there was a US I really by the reasoning displayed on here today can not call myself American.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Maybe I missed it above, but the information that follows is relevant to this discussion. According to a CNN article,

-------------------------------------------------

"Melanie Benjamin, the tribal chairwoman of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe Indians in Minnesota, said Warren asked her for advice on how to discuss her heritage before a speech in February.

"My advice to her -- and I used an example -- is that in Indian country, we are very community-oriented," she said. "We are those types of people where we will embrace you as part of our community, and then we will recognize you as our community from there on."

"If you are told from Day One that you are that tribal person and that tribal home, that's who you are. And that's the simplest way to explain that," Benjamin said."

------------------------

Not quite the same as the definition supplied by the Cherokee Nation, whose criteria don't matter anyway since Warren has never applied for official tribal citizenship or membership.

Nor has Warren called herself an Indian. She has only claimed that there was one Indian in her family's heritage. She is quite aware that she is mostly white/caucasion.

She has also never benefitted from that heritage as far as getting a job. It was the school that counted her as part of its diversity program. Warren did not submit her name or ancestry as contributing to that diversity.

From the same CNN article,--

------------------------------

"Warren's purported Native American heritage was touted by Harvard Law School when she was a professor there. But Warren's video includes testimonials from faculty at Harvard Law, the University of Houston, University of Pennsylvania Law School and UT Austin School of Law insisting Warren's professional advancement was not tied to it.

"Her heritage had no bearing on her hiring," Jay Westbrook of the UT Austin School of Law says in the video. "Period."

Her campaign has also published a lengthy archive of university documents to support these claims."

-----------------------------

And the only requirement Trump stated for writing that million dollar check (for charity) was that Warren take a DNA test and show she had some Indian ancestry. Nothing was specified about how much or when the test was to be taken.

No one on this forum is an "expert" (although we have lots of opinions, regardless), but an expert has looked at Warren's DNA test. According to CNN, --

------------------------------

"Warren now has documentation to back up her family lore -- an analysis of her genetic data performed by Carlos Bustamante, a professor of genetics at Stanford and adviser to Ancestry and 23 and Me.

In a rollout video about Warren's heritage, the Massachusetts Democrat is seen sitting behind a laptop as she calls Bustamante.

"Now, the President likes to call my mom a liar," Warren asks him. "What do the facts say?"

Bustamante responds, "The facts suggest that you absolutely have a Native American ancestor in your pedigree."

------------------------------

That about covers it, folks.

Kate

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maifleur01

That covers it well but either some on here are not capable of understanding what you have written or they can not admit that they are still wrong.

See my question above I really would like to know what I can say my ancestry is if Warren can not say she has Native American ancestors.

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Göndul

Say whatever you want about your ancestry.

Just don't exploit it for personal gain.

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maifleur01

You mean that on St. Patricks day I have to give up the parties? No Octoberfest? Seems a shame because that means all ethnic foods are forbidden because they would be for my gain. Sounds silly but this would thread saying that someone used something to their advantage that others used to theirs is even sillier.

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queenmargo

She could have simply said she "identified" lol

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Ann

I agree. If one is to use ancestry for personal gain, they better be darn certain of its validity. Family lore doesn't cut it for purposes of applications and such.

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Göndul

Never heard of St. Patrick's Day being exploitative, but anything is possible on the left.

If eating tamales can be weaponized, I'm sure the left will figure out how to make it happen.


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cait1

Yet Rosanne got canned because she rightly thought Valerie Jarrett was white. And Valerie has more NA DNA in her than Warren does. ROFL

Valerie should be claiming her NA heritage, too. ROFL




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Göndul

Ann, Warren actually used a French chef for personal gain. She should have checked to see how much dna came from France.

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Göndul

Well, no kidding, cait! That's very interesting about Jarret. That's like 10x or 100x higher than Warren.

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justerrilynn(10)

No one here is saying that she doesn't have a small toe nails worth of either South America or North American Indian. To me it's more about how she exploited and exaggerated her Indian "heritage" . I guess she wanted to seem more minority or exotic. All you have to do is look on YouTube at some older vids and you will hear it in her own words.

Liz's mom below . Apparently she was discriminated against for being about a big toe's worth of Indian.

My great grandmother was Chippewa . I know there was discrimination. Her daughter, my grandma was part white. She had mid/light skin and could have passed for many nationality mixes so looked just like most Americans unless you knew what to look for. No prejudices. My mom looked Indian but also could have been Italian. My dad had one Indian in the family (different tribe) four generation back. She flew the coup but the kids just looked a mix like most Americans. Prejudices of being Indian doesn't flow to the watered down versions. In Warrens case it was 99.1 % watered down. Even back in the day when there was much more prejudices it normally didn't include people who were rumored to have a pinch several generations before.

Although I have much more Indian in me than Liz, I was raised white.

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foodonastump

She did confirm, however, that she had told the law school association that she held a minority status.

"I listed myself (in the) directory in the hopes that might mean that I would be invited to a luncheon, a group something, with people who are like I am," Warren told reporters May 3, 2012. "Nothing like that ever happened. That was absolutely not the use for it and so I stopped checking it off." - Politico

For the sake of all minorities, I hope we can agree that having an instance of “something” way up the family tree doesn’t constitute your having minority status. Taken at face value her motivation was as trivial as her NA “roots” but it was not particularly honest.

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Ziemia(6a)

Ann, Your reply to me (asking you to explain your comment about Warren listing herself as a minority on an application) is a quote from FoxNews claiming to cite what the Globe found. They were inaccurate in the way they presented that bit of information.

I cannot find any place where that (listing self as minority in an *application*) is presented with any authoritative source.

=========

I persisted in getting to the source of your claim as I was truly interested in having info I did not yet have. And I wondered if you were also interested in tracking down this claim.

And, I am interested in knowing what the details are in the varying claims.

For the record, Warren running for president is wrong for multiple reasons. I am totally opposed to it as are others who are her supporters - for US Senate.

Senate - yes.

President - no (a very firm no)

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Certain people keep repeating incorrect information.

  • Harvard Law School identified Warren as an example of a minority, in defense of their faculty’s lack of diversity. That is something Harvard did, not something Warren did. If any apologies are owed, it is Harvard that should be apologizing for what it did. Warren did nothing and therefore has nothing to apologize for.
  • Warren did NOT put Native American on an application for school or job, nor in any way benefit from Affirmative Action. She did evidently sign a SOCIAL registry in hopes of meeting others with a similar ancestry. That was SOCIAL--like signing an online dating service in an attempt to SOCIALLY meet others with similar interests. It had nothing to do with getting a job or promotion that she didn't deserve.
  • Warren in no way benefited from her heritage. She has outstanding academic and teaching credentials. Her own brains, training, and hard work were more than sufficient. Heritage was an irrelevant consideration.

Repeat the opposite as much as you please, but that will still NOT invalidate any of the above facts.

Kate

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GOD

Kate, when the trump followers keep lying, they've admitted defeat.

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Ann

Kate, did she put "minority" on an application? If yes, she lied.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

What does it matter if someone does or does not have more Cherokee Indian blood than Warren does?

The only issue (raised by Trump) was whether Warren was lying when she claimed she had a Native American ancestor.

She was telling the truth. As has already been pointed out several times, an analysis of her genetic data performed by Carlos Bustamante, a professor of genetics at Stanford and adviser to Ancestry and 23 and Me, indicates, as he told Warren, that "The facts suggest that you absolutely have a Native American ancestor in your pedigree."

And by the way, Sen. Graham cannot prove with a DNA test that he has Cherokee blood. The DNA tests are incapable of telling anyone that information.

And no, I will not play Sen. Graham's stupid game.

Kate

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foodonastump

Ann, did she put "minority" on an application?


To my knowledge she put it on a directory, and on some recipe submissions. I’m not aware of an application.

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whynottryit

Kate...I agree wholeheartedly.

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whynottryit

Does anyone recall that "women" are a minority group? Regardless of color?

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chase_gw

Nothing I have read supports the fact she used her status on any application of any sort. In fact the opposite. Any verifiable facts to sort the opposite ?

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Rita / Bring Back Sophie 4 Real

Here is an excellent Op-Ed from a conservative NYT columnist about this issue.

In short Ross Douthat explains how Warren came to be identified as Native American- it appears it was the doing of her university that labelled her a Native American professor- first at Penn and then at Harvard.

What I think is most important in this piece is the concept that Warren should not have played this game with Trump. A normal person cannot win against an experienced bully. Warren should stick to what she knows (and that is a whole lot about economic policies that help the middle class.) Venturing into Trump's freak show politics is a YUGE mistake. Leave that to the pros.

From the NYT Op-Ed:

Here are the basic facts. There was plausible Warren family lore, as there is in many Oklahoman families, about a Cherokee ancestor, which included a memory of in-law bigotry against Warren’s mother for her supposed Cherokee and Delaware blood. At some point in Warren’s academic career, this lore became part of her official biography, so that she was listed as a “Native American” professor at the University of Pennsylvania and described as Harvard Law’s “first woman of color,” and she even contributed a family recipe to a Native American cookbook.

When this story first surfaced six years ago, I wrote that it was more embarrassing for the Ivy League than for Warren. The identification didn’t seem to have improved her academic career — something confirmed subsequently by documentation from her hirings — and her brief period as a supposed minority trailblazer was, I suggested, probably a whim of self-identification that she subsequently regretted, and was happy enough to let slip away. In which case it was the schools’ eagerness to turn a woman they had hired on the merits into an embodiment of an essentially phony diversity that was the real problem, not Warren’s attachment to her family tales.

But what Warren should have done when the story resurfaced, what she obviously should have done, was to simply express mild regret for letting her enthusiasm for family lore carry her away into identifying as someone who might possibly receive affirmative-action consideration, apologize to Cherokee groups for any offense, and literally never speak of the matter again. And if and when Donald Trump started up his Pocahontas gibes, she should have simply ignored him and talked about the many issues where he’s on the wrong side of public opinion.

In the event, she didn’t apologize, presumably because she thought that she did have a legitimate claim to minority status. And then she — or some too-clever strategist with her ear — set out to prove it with a DNA test, so that she could throw it back in Trump’s yawping face.

And the DNA is, indeed, solid evidence … that Warren has at least one Indian ancestor between six and 10 generations back. Pace certain instant conservative critiques, this is legitimately interesting genealogy performed by a legitimate expert. It suggests that she may have more Native American blood, not less, than the average white American. And while a crude reading of the estimate suggests that she’s between one-64th and one-1,024th Cherokee (or some other mix of tribes), it’s also still possible that she’s somewhat more Indian than that.

So checkmate, Drumpf, right? Well, no, not at all. Because the whole issue with Warren’s ancestral claims is that she allowed them to be proclaimed as proof of an elite institution’s diversity, in an environment where that diversity can matter a great deal to one’s career prospects (even if, on the evidence, it didn’t matter much to Warren’s). And from the identitarian left to the anti-affirmative-action right, I defy you to find a single person invested in these debates who believes that someone who might be one-64th or even one-32nd Indian and whose Cherokee experience consists of old family stories should qualify as a first “minority” hire in anything.

The DNA test thus simultaneously gives Trump an obvious way to keep the story going on his terms — just pick the lowest end of the genetic estimate and make sport of a “Pocahontas” who’s only one-1,000th Indian — while also annoying Indian groups and anyone on the left (including the actual minority candidates against whom Warren may run) invested in a vision of affirmative action as a righter of historic wrongs rather than just a means to elite self-congratulation.

Warren should not have taken the test; having taken it, she should not have publicized it; having publicized it, she should quietly fire anyone who urged this gambit and move on. And liberals generally should regard this whole thing as a cautionary tale. There is an obvious appetite on the activist left for a candidate or candidates willing to take on Trump on his own brawler’s terms. But if you come at him that way, you best not miss — as Michael Avenatti, the would-be Trump of the Resistance, has been missing repeatedly of late, with a Kavanaugh intervention that helped get the judge confirmed and a libel lawsuit that just got his own client ordered to pay Trump’s legal fees.

Now Warren has joined Avenatti in that loser’s gallery, for absolutely no good reason that I can see. Her self-own isn’t the biggest deal in the world, and her partisans are right that if mostly conservatives are agitated by the fiasco then it might not hurt her much. But a “front-runner” who’s polling at 8 percent needs to be showing reasons other candidates should be pre-emptively intimidated, and why the party should decide on her. And the fact that we’re talking, for no good reason, about a fragment of Elizabeth Warren’s DNA three weeks before an essential midterm is a sign that she shouldn’t exactly terrify her rivals yet.

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook and Twitter (@NYTopinion), join the Facebook political discussion group, Voting While Female, and sign up for the Opinion Today newsletter.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/17/opinion/elizabeth-warren-dna-trump-native-american.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


Also, personally, I think Democrats should resist the urge to constantly point out how clever they are. They come off as self-righteous know-it-alls and that is not a good look. The problem with the Democratic side of the argument is that is often nuanced and complicated, it would be best to avoid flat out wrong on stupid issues like this one.


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whynottryit

Rina, I cannot "like" that article or your comment enough to do it justice. We live in a jabberwocky world. Yes, that's my new term for this crazy, scary, bizarre, surreal world in which we find ourselves.

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Rita / Bring Back Sophie 4 Real

whynot, You've coined the perfect phrase! Jabberwocky world, it's perfect.

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whynottryit

*grins and takes a bow*

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foodonastump

Does anyone recall that "women" are a minority group?

Does “identify as” count?

Seriously though, while in some contexts women are a minority, that would change my “bad call and bad handling” rating to “lost all respect.” Fortunately that’s not her excuse.

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patriciae_gw(07)

If Warren didn't meet this Pocahontas thing head on People like our conservative posters would never let it go. It is JUST like Barak Obama not being a citizen. When he put out proof of his citizen ship with the short form most people backed away from it though still claiming he wasn't. Trump resurrected it, gave it new life and so the long form was released. It became a mostly dead proposition for smear except in the seriously fringy like Arpaio and his crowd but even he could not make it walk again. It was a dead Zombie. Finally. No one can be taken seriously who tries to pull this old chestnut out. I guess Warren is only halfway through her process but like Hillary Clinton she will come out of this with undeserved baggage. It works. Now that conservatives do this is one thing but those of you here who aren't, you are doing to her what you did to Clinton. You are creating a scenario where she bears some responsibility somehow for something wrong she never did.

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whynottryit

In industry and in colleges, women are often considered as minorities when looking at diversity hires.

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Göndul

Mary Bretman

Warren
hand picked someone to run her dna and he couldnt even match it with
native american. He matched it to either peruvian, columbian, or some
other south american country. however, even that claim is slim as it
would only amount to 1/1000 . she is embarassing herself, she is a
fraud.

The only decent thing to do is for Warren to release her test data, raw, and let at least 3 other experts weigh in, without a glossy tv ad and camera ready experts.

Or, Warren should submit her dna for blind analysis, where the testers do not know who she is.

Finally, based on what she could manage to muster up by way of "proof", it is so extremely pathetic that she needs to issue an apology to Native Americans, especially the tribe(s) she personally and purposefully footnoted herself as.

That apology needs to include the French chef whose recipes she plagiarized and foisted upon people as Native American "family" recipes.

Cold crab omelette. I'm sure that's what land-locked Oklahoma folks whipped up with all the crab meat they had on hand.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Gondul, Warren DID submit her DNA for Blind testing. The man who did the interpretation is an expert in studying native populations. Since all American(both continents) First people share the same set of DNA markers and the populations of First Peoples who have been studied the most thoroughly are Central and South American versus North American Tribes who generally oppose testing, he used markers from there. It is that simple. It is that valid and she has a significant section on her tenth Chromosome that is considered diagnostic for a pure blood ancestor but I expect you haven't read this far.

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Ann

This article discusses how Warren "self-identified" as minority through a period of 8 years and at least two law faculty positions. I'm not sure what the argument is about anymore?


https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/dec/01/facts-behind-elizabeth-warren-and-her-native-ameri/

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catkinZ8a


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Ann

And, then this from factcheck.org. The actual employment applications haven't been reviewed as I discussed previously.

"Warren has declined to authorize officials at Harvard or Penn, both private institutions, to release her employment records, as Brown challenged her to do."

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mrskjun(9)

You can argue about how Warren handled this, how she used the information in the past ad nauseum. But face it. She has shot herself in the foot and the campaign ads against her will be brutal, even from her own party in the primaries. We have seen what the left was willing to do to Kavanaugh, they will certainly eat their own.

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Ann

Oh, I agree. I don't think she has a chance of winning her party's nomination. Talk about a massive backfire.

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Deflection.... Donald opened his idiot mouth and accused her of lying about her heritage and challenge her to prove it, which it was proven as well as current science can. HE IS AN IDIOT !!! OWN IT!!!

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patriciae_gw(07)

You can write so I know you can read.

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chase_gw

Ann, do you have a date for that quote? I don' t see it on the link you provided and it was my understanding she authorized the release of all applications for the Boston Globe Article

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mrskjun(9)

Who is the idiot rhoder? She's made the claim all these years and took him up on his challenge. Easily manipulated much?

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