Unfortunately you will find many individuals using a variety of terms that are not the official terms and this can and often does create confusion.

The main material you have is Particle Board. They use very small wood chips that are compressed and bonded together. Furniture grade Particle Board is used extensively in furniture and cabinetry construction.

Pressboard is more like layers of paper compressed and bonded together, some call this Hard Board. Often about 1/8" to 1/4" thick and is used in cabinet backings.

MDF & HDF, Medium and High Density Fiber Board are made using paper/wood fibers that are compressed and bonded together. These panels are typically between 1/4" - 1". They are often used for paint finishing as their surface very smooth.

Plywood is built up layers of veneer laid in alternating directions for strength. The inner veneer is typically a low cost wood species such as spruce or fir. In furniture and cabinetry use the plywood is finish veneered using other wood species, they are usually available finished good one side or both.

I won’t go back and re-read all the legal advice you got higher up in the thread, but if you can’t get any money back for these cabinets, that’s a travesty. These are truly disaster cabinets and I’m glad you’re getting new ones made. I think solid wood and plywood is a fine choice (solid wood for doors, plywood for the boxes – I don’t think anyone makes solid wood boxes at this point So sorry that this happened to you! What a nightmare!

7 days is fast, especially if it is true custom cabinetry where nothing is in stock. My current manufacturer is 8 weeks for turn around, some of this however is just due to the order volume.

Panels finished in melamine will be faster as they come from the mill already finished. Cabinet maker just has to cut the panels, tape any exposed edges and fasten together.

Many companies do require payment in full before they will deliver so that is not necessarily an indicator of anything underhanded.

Sorry, I know I'm spamming my own post. one last comment to give you context. The new guys we had come look at the kitchen pointed out a number of other mistakes. A few examples:

- we have bookshelves on the ends of the kitchen island for cookbooks, the shelf span is around 52" and it's made of the same particle board material. New guy said this is too wide and it shouldn't be longer than 30". I asked the original cabinet maker about this issue and he said 52" was fine and I didn't need to worry about sag.

- There is no reinforcement under the sink, even though the sink is an 85 lb fireclay sink. Both the guys we brought out commented on this. I asked for reinforcement under the sink and we were told it would be there. They had the sink on hand when they built the island.

- the entire back side of the island isn't secured -- other than at each side L and R. and if you push on it it moves freely in and out.

- the vanities were installed at standard countertop height even though we told them we had 6" tall vessel sinks which were on-site at the time of the install. Now with the sinks the whole thing is awkwardly high.

there were other issues as well but these are some examples.

I have a bath cabinet that is plywood construction, solid wood face
frame, solid wood raised panel doors and slab drawer fronts (maple).
It's been in place for over 10 years. Nothing is warped.

My kitchen cabinets are plywood construction with solid cherry face frames
and solid cherry wood shaker doors and slab drawers. I think they look
great and I am extremely happy with them. Yes, the boards are joined
together in the center panels, but the effect does not look uneven or
ugly to me. In fact, it all blends together and I don't notice it at
all. Again, nothing has warped, at least not yet, and the cabinets have
been in place for 6 years.

Tristan, you aren't crazy. for 25K, you are being completely ripped off w/those cabs. even the chinese cheap pre-made cabs are made w/solid ply and wood veneer, no particle board. And those cost about 4K for a medium sized kitchen.

I don't understand the 'paint grade" mentioned in the contract. nothing about those is paint grade. I wouldn't eat the 25K, and I also wouldn't install those particle board boxes in my kitchen. I can't believe the owner is swearing to you that laminate over particle board is wood!

I'm no lawyer or mediator, but if he's refusing to work with you, I don't think you have any other choice.

Definitely dispute any charges to your credit card if possible. As others have stated, gather your evidence and witnesses and proceed to an attorney if the sellers will not agree to work with you on this issue. Do not give them any more money, though. I'm sorry you're having to go through this. Leave negative feedback for them anywhere and everywhere.

Keep on fighting.... you were definitely taken for a ride.

Wishing you luck!

Usually floating floors do not go under cabinets since they need to move...

They had a beautiful show room and came highly recommended by a reputable interior designer, and they had great reviews and boasted many impressive jobs.

By nature I am a little skeptical, and if a reputable interior designer recommended this company then I suspect they got a very healthy percentage on it. There is no way that anyone with any professional experience would mistake what you have for quality.

I would call your state's attorney general's office. I think this is dangerously close to fraud. In my state the attorney general's office will make contact with the cabinetmaker and probably the reputable interior designer ask if they are in the process of reaching a settlement before proceeding further with a consumer fraud investigation. An astounding number of businesses respond that they were just about to work something out.

I also suggest that you call an attorney who works with the Uniform Commercial Code. A cabinetmaker will be bound by the UCC and there is a requirement in the code called the implied warranty of merchantability. Basically, it says that you must receive what you ordered and those items must be within the range of standard quality at that price point. In other words, a merchant is not allowed to sell you $3k cabinets for $25k.

Having said that, to win without a lot of trouble, you need the cabinet maker to realize they are going to lose before you spend a fortune proving it to them. You will often note that those in a profession are completely blind to their legal responsibilities and therefore, believe profoundly that they are in the right.

Okay, this is all super helpful. When I originally posted I wasn't thinking I'd do anything but try to move on at my own expense, but it's sounding like maybe they are clearly in the wrong. The first few comments had me doubting myself, even though everyone who I brought in to look at them referred to them in terms like "cheap" "garbage" and yes, "fraud" was mentioned. I'm glad to see I'm not crazy for not liking this.

To answer Beth H -- I didn't post any photos of the paint grade cabinets. The bathroom vanities and island were the most glaring, the wall cabinets are painted white and we were planning to keep those since they don't stand out as being as ugly like the faux wood foil island does. Now I'm wondering if this company's quality is so inferior, should I try to start over on everything? Including the wall cabinets? here's the a photo I have of the wall cabinets, I didn't think to take better photos of these. They're actually scuffed up and chipping in a lot of places, but we figured that's easy to fix. you can't tell that much from this photo, sorry. I'm just worried if we install stuff that's so poor quality then we'll regret it a few years in if it starts falling apart.

I'm also wondering if the span of this cabinet is too wide and the shelves will sag with dishes and things put on them?

One of the cabinet makers we brought in didn't know what we paid for them and assumed we had paid around 3k. it made me very sad. What a bad first experience. I'm also very interested in learning what I should have done in this situation. Show room looks nice, he says solid wood, okay, what documentation do I get to protect myself if this were to happen again? That will be good information to have considering we are getting ready to start over.

It sounds like your contractor gave you good advice as soon as he saw the cabinets. I would ask him who he recommends and go from there. At some point you do have to take a lot on trust, but get more details in writing so you have something to fall back on.

I will say, in this market, $25,000 for fully custom wood cabinets for the kitchen and bathrooms both seems low, which would have raised a red flag for me.

As a cabinet dealer, 25K for a kitchen with an island, two vanities and cabinetry for the laundry room would not be out of line. The typical price differential between a particle board constructed box versus a plywood one is about 12%. We only have about a 2% cost differential for stain finish versus a solid color. Wood species can result in a 10% variance. Melamine might drop the price by 20% over wood, all depends upon the door style.

It should be noted that a retailer can sell their products at whatever price they wish to. There is no law that dictates a sellers price.

Not defending the cabinet supplier, there are obvious significant miscommunications here as to what was expected and what was received. I would not be happy.

The most important part is the actual client signed/approved contract/order. If this is not clear then any written communications such as e-mails are next in line. Verbal discussions are really difficult as this is a he said/she said situation.

Others opinions may or may not be of value. For example, "Particle Board is Garbage" this is a completely erroneous statement.

Get your fact together and first present them to the cabinetry supplier.

The first few comments had me doubting myself, even though everyone who I brought in to look at them

That's because unlike everyone you brought in to look at the cabinets, no-one here in this thread actually got to see any photographs at all of the the cabinets in question until today : ) .

mainenell,,,''ask for that detail" ?? a little late, don't you think? Or is this for future orders?

Beth, the OP asked, "what documentation do I get to protect myself if this were to happen again? That will be good information to have considering we are getting
ready to start over."

"We give our customers a printout of their cabinet line, door selection,
color, cabinet construction, and drawer front option. The only thing
that doesn’t print on it is whether the door is a solid wood door or has
a veneered center panel."

Why would you not provide your customers with that information? Personally, I'd want every detail in writing, regardless if I was a customer or supplier.

the floor we chose is engineered hardwood, floating. I did some reading
and it looks like it is not advisable to install cabinets on top of
floating floor, so we wouldn't be able to put the floor in while we
wait..... does that sound wrong/right to anyone?

Wrong........... you can tape/chalk off all cabinetry/island on the sub floor. Builders OFTEN install flooring last in a new build. The cabinetry is shimmed 3/4" up to accommodate. Toe kicks are scribed to the hardwood floor last, as are base boards. You always have flooring beneath the fridge ......: ) Right?

jellytoast,,,ok,,fair enough. but I would think that OP gets that everything they want, should be written down somewhere. He said that way up in the beginning of these comments. but if in his contract it says, "solid wood", and he's given particle board with veneer, there's no mistaking that he got the wrong product.

So, I guess you would want a breakdown of the cabinet construction and exact materials that are used. Of course you would want pictures of the cabinets you ordered, along with paint color or stain choice.

And as a customer, I would ask questions about veneer, or solid panels and also get that in writing. that way they can't come back w/vinyl lam over particle board and try to scam you into saying 'you ok'ed this'.

It should be noted that a retailer can sell their products at whatever price they wish to. There is no law that dictates a sellers price.

I can assure you that this isn't true, or at least it is a lot more nuanced than you are representing. I have actually prevailed on this exact issue several times. A merchant can charge whatever he wants but he can't mislead you about the quality.

So a merchant can tell you that these cabinets are garbage and then sell them to you for whatever price. However, a merchant can't represent his products as a better quality and then deliver lower quality. One of the major tests used for the quality assessment is price. The way the UCC looks on these transactions is that you have two options, document exactly what you are agreeing on and deliver that, or deliver products commensurate with the price you are charging.

The UCC assumes that people don't pay thousands of dollars for goods worth ten dollars and if a merchant does that, then they are fraudulent. The big red flag is the documentation rather than cabinet quality.

Going forward when buying cabinets, I suggest buying 1 of the base cabinets in the layout in advance. That way you can inspect the cabinet construction & quality in person & see how the process goes with that company. You can also take it home & see it in the space. If it meets all your expectations, order the rest in confidence. If it doesn't, you won't get stuck with a bunch of cabinets subpar. Then repeat until you find what you are looking for.

I’ve been through some similar things with remodeling. Has been nothing short of a disaster the past two years. When it came to having my cabinet doors made (lowers to match the pre-existing uppers and rest of house), I spoke to a number of local cabinet shops. I picked out a cpl that seemed to be on top of their game.

Having been burned so much in the past, same as yourself, great showroom, good reviews, nice website, etc...I asked for each shop to build one of the smaller doors first. I just needed unfinished, solid, paint grade cabinet doors to match the rest of the cabinets in the house. I told them I would prepay, but wanted one door first to decide. I told them why. I’ve been burned and want to see what I get before placing a large order. Both places said they understood and no problem. The first shop came back with $900 for a small drawer face. The second shop charged under $60. I obviously picked the cheaper. Two days later, I had a small drawer face to compare to the rest of the cabinets in the house. I was happy with what I got, so I ordered the rest of what I needed. They had 20-something doors done within the week and were a pleasure to deal with. The other shop may have done a fantastic job, but were less understanding and just promised me that I would be happy after I paid them.

The shop I chose was understanding and sympathetic to contractors that take advantage of homeowners. Their willingness to work with me has me telling everyone I meet how great they are and “no job too small” means exactly that to them. They were very professional and polite, even with me telling them I only want one drawer, but I might get more later. Their response, no problem.

It may not help you, but perhaps someone in the same position as I was can find that helpful. Sometimes you can buy the smallest piece to check the quality. I’d much rather lose a few hundred and some time instead of a huge fiasco like you have on your hands. Learning experiences suck.

@artistsharonva, unfortunately that just isn’t feasible with custom cabinets. The leadtime is too long; they don’t have cabinets just sitting around. You’d have to order one & wait several weeks before inspecting it, then place the rest of your order, wait some more. With 4-12 week lead times that won’t work for most people. Instead, you should be able to visit a cabinetmaker’s work room, and/or see some of the company’s jobs that they have done. Plus, getting all the documentation. That should be enough.

I had custom cabinets done for my current remodel.

I visited some cabinet installations that were done by this cabinet maker to get a sense of the quality of his work - both the actual cabinet construction and their installation since the cabinet maker handled installation.

I was provided with a sample door and then the sample door was stained. I didn't like the stain so I had them redo the stain sample. I then had to sign off - literally - on the door.

The actual plans were also signed and they included very explicit specifications.

The actual construction of the cabinets didn't take that three months - it was considerably shorter than that and if I had pushed it might have gone a bit faster but in no way was the process a seven day turnaround.

FWIW, my cabinets are plywood and my doors are solid wood - quarter sawn white oak.

Those appear to be a real wood veneer, although a thin one, over furniture board, which is a high quality engineered panel used in furniture and cabinet construction. It’s the same material that IKEA and everyone else uses. The sides do not appear to be either vinyl or laminate, which is what Ikea uses. The graining texture follows the wood grain itself, rather than being a random texture applied over a printed appearance layer.

Either vinyl or laminate for unexposed cabinet sides would be an upgrade on the usual completely unfinished cabinet sides. Most makers do not finish the sides that are not exposed in the design. There is no technical need to pay extra $ for the sides that do not show, so most people put that upgrade money elsewhere.

Wood veneer on a flush box, as it appears to be here, would be an acceptable upgrade choice for cabinet sides that are exposed. That would be a second level upgrade, with the first layer upgrade being the laminate or vinyl. A third level upgrade would be species veneer plywood. A fourth level upgrade would be the species ply upgrade and an applied decorative door. A fifth level upgrade would be an integrated decorative door side. A sixth level upgrade would be an integrated decorative door mitered into the face frame. A seventh level upgrade would be an operable door, with the face frame mitered. An eighth level would be the operable door, mitered, with the interior finished, and glass. Etc.

Better pictures from a distance of the actual doors on the cabinets would be needed to confirm more. The pictures shown are better, but still not as enlightening as needed to fully assess what was sent.

However, 25K would not be out of line for an average kitchen using industry standard non upgraded furniture board box with veneered exposed side panels as the upgrade, etc. A true custom produced high end product could easily be 50-100% more for an upgraded choice like rift sawn, and paint. I did a 120” oak bar in Omega once that was 22K.

In other words , does not sound like you have " garbage" for your dollars.

He’s had multiple in-person second opinions from pros. It’s weird that some people just do not want to take OP and those pros, who have SEEN the cabinets, at their word.

With respect, the OP brought in professionals who got to see and feel the cabinets. Additionally, the contractor got to see and feel the cabinets. Rather than us determining quality from a few pictures and assumptions. Let's, for a moment, entertain the idea that the professionals who have been in the same physical space as the cabinets may not be idiots.

I realize there is often an assumption that the homeowner is somehow mistaken. They may well be, but when all else fails a G.C. willing to extend final payment for work simply because of questionable quality goes a long way towards establishing the legitimacy of the problem.

Contractors not involved in cabinet construction usually are not really knowledgeable about cabinet construction. They suffer from the same unfounded wood prejudice as many homeowners do for “solid wood” and against composite products and veneers. That mote in the eye can lead to an incorrect assessment of quality. For instance, people love and rate IKEA well. But it’s actual quality is lesser than the cabinets shown above.

The real issue is one of the contract terms, and not getting what was promised under the contract. Unfortunately, that contract is lacking in definitions and specifications. I don’t think that any Pro on here would provide such a poorly worded document. Or one that lacked additional diagrams and specifications as part of the contract. That is the mark of someone who is poor at the actual business end of the business, which, of course, has a different skill set than working in wood. Sadly, that’s often the case.

OP I wouldn't move on at your expense. I'd fight tooth and nail to get my money back from these people. I know a lot of people think the BBB is worthless but if this business cares anything about their reputation THEY will care about a bad BBB rating.

Start by putting in a complaint with the BBB and see if they can mediate you getting some, if not all, of your money back and take it from there. There is always small claims court too. I'd stop short of a lawyer though, most are worse than the shady business's and contractor's.

Usually small claims courts only handle disputed amounts under a certain $ amount. In my state, that is $2500. Anything over that is going to require an attorney, filing fees, and a formal lawsuit that will takes months/years if litigated all the way to a judgment by judge or jury. Of course, the process varies by state and country but having spent multiple years working in an attorney's office, that's how it works where I live.

Gosh I am learning soooo much that I am totally confused! Please help! My home on St. John USVI was nearly destroyed a year ago in Hurricanes Irma and then Maria finished her off. I am just now looking into ordering my cabinets and 4 bathroom cabinets (or maybe will buy teak pre made vanities, EcoDesigns has ones I like for $1700 without countertop)

In the kitchen we HAD Mahogany full panel full wood cabinets made in 1992. Our termites and ants here are voracious and seem to love many woods. And houses are wonderfully open but humidity matches the temperature, 80's and up.

I have been advised by local interior designers to pick furniture only with total wood, preferably teak of mahogany and no pine, MDF, veneers or bamboo. Rattan wicker ok, Seagrass suspect.

So a local island cabinetmaker suggested by our builder came in with a brochure for Alder and oak! I thought I wanted a flat panel grained solid wood, which none of his suggestions were. Plain, modern but beachy, no trim on top, no handles. When I said his brochure was too "frou frou" for my needs and too expensive, he came in with an idea for Italian cabinets, even more pricey he said! No one seems to have the time to help me make a educated and reasonably priced decision on cabinets or countertops.

I am getting the idea here that my total wood idea is not a good one. With the humidity and bugs, then what is your suggestion? If I must, sigh, I can go with oh so trendy white and heard about Kraftmaid's Evercore, nearly weatherproof apparently. Any education and advice is very appreciated.

Thank you for the idea about looking at exterior cabinets, awesome idea that no one has suggested!

Linda, you'll get many more replies if you start a new post/thread.

That mote in the eye can lead to an incorrect assessment of quality. For instance, people love and rate IKEA well. But it’s actual quality is lesser than the cabinets shown above.

First, I disagree with your assessment of quality. This is not simply a cheap materials issue.

That left edge is clearly someone using a dull saw or dull router blade to trim their veneers. That is a bad edge for a stained product. There are other problems that are clearly visible in the construction.

Furthermore, you are comparing apples to oranges. Ikea cabinets are better quality than their price, but that doesn't mean they would retain that rating at other price points. Mazda was ranked number one by owners in 2017, but no one thought driving a Mazda was essentially the same thing as driving a Bentley.

Ikea cabinets are designed well, rather than constructed with superior materials. Things like mechanical fastened boxes (rather than glued), and base cabinets that are lifted off the ground create few places where water can stand in the cabinet. However, they are not without issues. Out of six rental properties with Ikea kitchens 2 have had warranty replacements on their cabinets because of quality control issues with finises. I have pictures right now of doors side by side that have drastic tonal differences after only 5 years. I mean one is yellow and one is white, furthermore, this is a fairly common problem with Ikea cabinets.

They just have really good warranty service and I love the product. However, I wouldn't love the product at five times the price.

Linda- Keep looking until you can find a cabinetmaker who works in teak and mahogany or other similar hardwoods. If it were my home, because of all the work going on because of the damage of your island I might explore craftsmen in Honduras and get them shipped.

Here's a video from a guy who had a house flood & how they held up. Excuse his occasional cuss.

J&K Cabinetry vs RTACabinetstore.com cabinets after flood MDF vs wood

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kvmIjEMwywA

I went back and looked at your original post and the sign off sheet you had posted. It says "upgrade to birch plywood" . That is not what you appear to have ( or at least in the photos you showed us ) . Not sure you need much more than that to argue for replacement cabinets.

The issue with not liking the door could be a different story - did you see an actual door sample of what you are getting? That is very important and I would not proceed anywhere without that. You may have to pay for one but it would have solved problems up front.

We have cabinets bases with no tops on them so folks can see the construction and then they sign off on their design plan like this:

This way there is no question of what is being purchased.

Hope this helps for your next go around...

Much luck to you!

"This way there is no question of what is being purchased"

Not sure? Just some examples where there could be the potential for misunderstanding.

- Is this Framed, Frameless or Inset.

- No mention of the drawer front style.

- Wood Finish - What is the clear coat sheen level?

- Case Construction - is the plywood 1/2", 5/8" or 3/4"?

- Box interiors - What finish is that? Birch Veneer, Maple Veneer? Same as the exterior?

- Shelving - What thickness?

- Drawer Construction - What species of wood?

The fact that you state the Wood Species "Maple" in a separate line one could easily assume that in every mention of the word Wood in this description implies that it will be Maple.

I can't add to the great cabinet advice here, butI can speak to your timeline. Stop it! You *want* the house to be finished before you move in, but that's a wish, not a necessity. You will make far better decisions and deal better with the problems that arise if you set that timeline aside and just deal with what needs to happen. You can live without floors, but they are a pretty big deal (I hated the weeks on bare concrete floors post-flood), so get your floors down. Since you are paying for your GC's services, why exactly does he get to tell you that he 'won't' do floors until cabinets are in? That may be his preference (just as yours was to have this all completed before move-in), but that is just the way he wants to do it (less flooring that way), and as someone once said, 'you don't always get what you waa aant'). Here's what we determined we actually *needed* to be able to live in our post-flood house: walls, floor, and one functional bathroom. Get your flooring down. Toilet, sink, shower or tub. I second the suggestion to get an inexpensive pedestal sink or cheap big box vanity in the interim. You can sell it afterwards. One or two long folding tables in your kitchen work pretty well for prep, drying dishes, etc. One or two metal storage racks (on wheels if possible) such as Metro Commercial or Metro Kitchen from Container Store work wonders to temporarily replace cabinet storage. Helpful hint 1: you don't have to unpack ALL of your kitchen utensils, cookware, dishes, etc. Unpack only what you need, place on shelves, go about the business of living and take your time and make sound, non-emotional, non-urgent decisions about how to resolve the cabinet crisis. You have time, you just need to stop telling yourself that you *must* have this completed by x-date. Helpful hint 2: I love Container Store but the reference to their product was just a reference - you can find similar shelves at Home Depot, Lowes, or even Craig's List or a restaurant supply. Breathe.

@ Kitchen Abode - This sign off sheet is coupled with actually seeing the cabinet box in person and I often give my customer a copy of the construction chart right out of the cabinet manufacturers spec book.

The name of the door style is where it would indicate full overlay, inset etc. It has worked well for me for many years. I can always add to it if I feel the need to easily enough - it is a note saved in the 2020 program.

I also read it to my customer so if I sense hesitation, I can clarify and edit as needed.

Thanks for your response to my post

Have a great day!

What was the outcome to the original post? I have a similar issue and am preparing to sue the GC with in house cabinet shop for fraud.