Thanks Jake.

What Jake said.

Is there any possibility that that leak could have been caused from the pipe being outside? Being in Florida we don't get extreme swings in temperature but still it was exposed to the elements.

Many homes in our area of SW Florida are old and were plumbed with copper pipes. Our water is RO and aggressive. Pipes get pinhole leaks and eventually were changed to PVC. Exterior hose bibs present constant issue due to the salt air. (we're on the water) Check your water, if it's aggressive, bite the bullet and change over to PVC or find yourself with wet ceilings, not fun.. If it's a corroded hose bib, easy fix. Hopefully it's the hose bib.

Inga

27 years (or less) is about the lifespan of copper in aggressive conditions, like enclosed in alkaline concrete and running acidic water through them. Test, but expect to replace with your givens.

Running PEX through the attic will be the far more economical choice over any other repipe methodology.

Thanks. I had an estimate and it was for $3500 (including drywall repair afterwards), which was about what I was expecting in terms of price. I'm resigned that I may have to do it. We have hard water here in my area. If I ignore it and do nothing I may get lucky or I may have to pay $600 to fix a slab leak in the future and then still have to shell out the money for the repipe anyway. But I am still going to test the water first before I do anything.

Ironically I have been through this before years ago, at a rental I own, but I had that one repiped because of polybutylene, not pinhole leaks. They used PEX when they did that.

Interesting John

We don't have "hard" water since our water comes thru reverse osmosis with some chlorine added per law. But because it is so inert it is aggressive looking for the missing ion, thereby putting pinholes into copper pipes. I guess you just can't win!.

Inga

Inga this state definitely has some unique problems for homeowners. But I'd still rather put up with that than have snow.

I agree John,

Right now I'm in Southern Utah where we plan to relocate and it was 38 this morning Yikes. Not south far enough I guess.

Makes me wonder what I was thinking!

Inga

Thanks Flo...my water heater is in the garage so there wouldn't be great damage if something happened there. I think a slab leak is the most likely thing that could happen which would be an expensive pain.

I knew this day would come, copper doesn't seem to last as long here as up north (and neither do roofs).

The test came up positive for copper.

What were the test results including copper levels and ph?

Do you really have R/O water? that would be really aggressive.

I have no idea what "R/O water" is.

Jake I have RO water which is reverse osmosis. Our water co op takes brackish water runs it thru a very fine membrane which separates the clean water from all of the other stuff and viola you have RO water. Same as what most of us who do any long distance sailing. We have a water maker taking salt water to make fresh water.

Unfortunately, RO water has absolutely nothing in it so it becomes aggressive eating up your copper pipes. Not John's problem as he said they had hard water.

So John, Just curious what does it mean your test came up positive for copper ? Does it mean the copper pipes are being eaten up? If so I wonder why if you have hard water.

Inga

"So John, Just curious what does it mean your test came up positive for copper ? Does it mean the copper pipes are being eaten up? If so I wonder why if you have hard water."

I really don't know. This is the first time I've ever done one of these tests. I just did it because people on here said to do it. I'm not sure how to interpret the test.

It came up .2 PPM mg/L.

I don't know if this means I need to repipe or not.

FYI I'm not sure if we have reverse osmosis here or not, I wasn't familiar with that term before this thread...but I've never heard anyone in my area talk about it before....so maybe we don't? Is that something the water utilities do?

Thanks for the replies here. I got some information from another source and it seems that the positive copper test doesn't really tell me anything about whether the pipes are corroded and whether I need to repipe or not...unless there's some other kind of test I can do I'm not sure I can get anymore information at this point to make my decision. There is no funny taste or coloration to my water, although I do filter it before I drink it because the tap water around here isn't that great in general.

I understand what Sophie and the others are saying, but now I'm back to maybe just waiting and seeing what happens. The outside leak could have been a one time fluke, and $3500 is a lot to pay.

John,

The EPA action levels for copper are 1.3 ppm and you are at 0.2 - that suggests that significant corrosion of your pipes is not taking place (it's not if it tests positive... it's how much). Note that the EPA action levels are based on human health, not plumbing - but it's a very usable guideline in this case anyway.

I stand by my suggestion that you hold tight and see what happens.

I'm not familiar with water in Florida. That said, R/O (reverse osmosis) is a very expensive way to treat water. I could be wrong, but I would be really surprised if it was being done on that scale. It's usually done to purify just drinking water or for medical / scientific / industrial uses. It's far too expensive way to purify water to be flushing down the toilet.

R/O water is usually piped in plastic pipe because it is aggressive to metal - another reason I'd be really surprised if you had utility-scale R/O water.

When I told you to test the water to see if it was corrosive, I should have been more specific to ask you to test the ph level (if it is acid or basic). Again, the copper test suggests that the water isn't corrosive.

Thanks Jake...I'm pretty sure we don't have R/O water here in Orlando because I probably would have heard the term before if we had...

I think I'm going to wait and see what happens. At least one of the homeowners insurance companies here will not insure houses with PEX because they claim it has leak issues. I don't know why because I think PEX is a great product, and so do the plumbers. But with Hurricane Michael the insurance companies are going to have huge losses and they will be looking to drop policies in this state and crack down on everything (I'm sure Inga knows what I'm talking about). I'm worried PEX could be their next target.

Wow, insurance companies should not be second-guessing building codes. If there was an insurance issue you would think they would address it through local or regional building code so that homeowners didn't find themselves with an un-insurable house.

There is a known issue with PEX and rodents. There is also a known issue with PEX and certain pine boring insects in the NW. But copper has its issues also - such as freezing and corrosion.

I don't want to start a copper vs PEX debate here. I just am really surprised that you could build a home to code and it potentially wouldn't be insurable -- that seems completely nutty.

Jake,

FYI, It is done here on Pine Island in SW Florida. Many other parts of the world use it as well. We have no other source of water except the option of digging a well and we do flush our toilets with RO water.

It's a co op called Greater Pine Island Water -pineislandwater.com you can look it up. All water in these parts is sent via plastic pipe line, which seem to break here and there at which point we are told to boil our water, a minor inconvenience.

As far as our water bills, they are actually no more than any other place.

My last bill was $35.00 of which $13.23 was "ready to serve" fee. Our water use consists of irrigation (limited as we use native plants, bringing the pool level up and regular household use, Occasional showers :))

On our boat, we have a Water Maker. The expensive part is the membrane. As for energy

we use solar panels. The membranes have a short life span and also require "pickling" when not in use.

I've never gone to the water plant (drive by it regularly) but would guess their equipment is huge compared to our boat system.

Best Wishes,

Inga

John,

Our house was plumbed with schedule 40. So I don't have to worry about PEX and insurance. I am, however, worried how much our boat insurance is going to go up due to Michael. It doubled after I forget which hurricane and we didn't have a claim! We're already over $5 grand per year with huge deductibles.

Inga

Jake funny you should mention that because I read someone complaining on a contractor website that the insurance companies here are "rewriting the building codes".

This mess started in 2004/5 when four hurricanes hit the state in one season.

I know Inga, it's crazy...I pushed the deductibles up to $2500 on my house and rentals because it simply isn't worth it to make a claim for a "small" amount here. Save the claims for catastrophic situations. I hope your boat premium doesn't go up much.

At least "Michael" did not hit our areas--we would be so screwed right now if it had! In fact the whole state would be completely screwed if it had traveled over the peninsula, it was that powerful.

Hi Inga,

I looked through their water quality report - it's interesting. So I stand corrected that you are using Utility-Scale RO. Is that common through Florida? - It's not in the Midwest.

From the report it shows that they are blending the water to get a hardness level of ~ 4 grains and adding orthophosphate for corrosion control as well as PH adjustment.

Jake, you're way more thorough than I am. I think once a year I get a report on the quality of the water. I honestly have to say I don't read all of the detail. As I understand, they take brackish water and run it thru the RO system. They are regulated by law to dispose of the "waste" water by injecting it into deep wells. How great that is, I don't know. I will tell you when you drive by the Plant it "STINKS"

Some of their revenue comes from buying into the co op. I think we paid $1200 - one time fee even though the people we bought the house from were members. So every time a house sells, they get the initiation fee. On the other hand, if you drill a well, it costs more than that. More important, during dry seasons, your well could have salt water intrusion and it's up to you to monitor the safety of your water supply. I thought 1200 was cheap and worth it as I don't want to worry about our water.

I don't believe RO is necessarily the norm in Florida.

In the Florida Keys the water is piped down from Miami. My guess is it comes from Lake Okeechobee. At least people in the Keys aren't crazy (well, they are a bit looney :)) but not when it comes to wasting water by growing manicured grass. You don't find a lot of lawns thankfully. On PI people come from the midwest and they are going to have a manicured lawn come hell or high water even though they are only there 5 months or that it spoils our water from pesticides, fertilizers gets into our ground water etc. Then they complain about the water quality when they are fishing and the diminishing fish. Hellooooo

Inga who will now get off her soap box

John,

If it makes you feel any better, Our boat deductible for a named storm $25K or 2% of the value if I remember correctly. So it basically comes down unless your boat is totaled or seriously damaged, you can't really claim anything with that kind of deductible.

When Irene hit us last year, we had no house damage but our yard was trashed, palm trees ripped out trees blown over etc. I had to hire people (not easy when they're so busy)

I paid a lot of money for major clean up between the house and my shop. Tried to get

the Wind coverage to pay for some, Not! They said it would come out of the deductible.

I really think insurance in Florida has questionable value for all of the money it costs. Living out on the island we no insurance company willing to write a policy.. In other words, there's no competition. Wind we get thru the state, flood insurance is federal which I finally cancelled a few years ago when the rates kept going up and up and I decided for what they actually cover its just not worth it. The regular fire theft is holding stable but compared to other areas not inexpensive either.

All of this is most likely not a news flash for you John.

Inga

Inga,

Your water comes from 5 deep wells - and yeah, they re inject the wastewater. I don't know how brackish it is... but it's high in Total Dissolved Solids.

I was looking for some kind of subsidy given the reasonable cost of water and I'm guessing the buy-in to the coop is it. It's still very reasonable though.

Jake.

To the best of my knowledge there is no subsidy. The other thing is a large percentage of the population on PI is seasonal. In other words, they're not furnishing water 365 to everyone but those seasonal people are still paying the ready to Serve fee not using a drop of water unless of course they are irrigating. If you're keeping a manucured grass your water bill will be a LOT more than my last one.

They are also somewhat sneaky, whenever they want to pass an increase or approve expansion, they hold a board meeting, of course it's always done when the large portion of the population is up north. My husband went one time, it was just a formality and made it look as though they would listen to input from water users. However, they had already made up their mind. They are trying to increase their $$ and grow their Fiefdom by actually providing water to those off the island. The rest of us will then pay for the piping etc.

On another note: In Utah where we are trying to relocate, the water is VERY hard. Every one has a water softener system in the garage and everyone has a little RO unit under the sink for drinking water. I can't seem to get away from RO water:)) I'm used to it as it tastes like nothing.

Inga

That's terrible Inga...what a rip off.

I know the insurance companies have to make money and there are probably a lot of things we don't understand about the business, but it seems you get so little for your money, as the customer.

I was lucky in Irma. Minor things like a fence knocked and some soffit damage at one place but my area missed the worst of it.

I guess you were near where it made landfall in Naples if your in SW Florida, right?

Yes we're about 30 miles north of Naples. We decided to ride it out. I finally put ear protection on. It made it a bit more calming not hearing the sounds as the palm trees were ripped out of the ground in our courtyard. I'm not kidding. ::)) quite a site.

Our neighbors across the street also stayed, they have a stilt. They wanted us to come stay with them but we;re more comfortable in our own place. We told them if the water comes up, we'll swim over.

and our mattress probably floats. Bob got lines and PDFs from boat in case we actually had to swim over to tie ourselves together. We had a number of friends who vacated the island who kept pestering us to join them as well but we stayed..

As for insurance companies,.Of course we all know they have to be profitable but I think there is a lot of greed. If I was an insurance co CEO making millions in salary, I would not cover any mobile homes.

After Irene, I drove thru some of the mobile home parks on the island. Awful. Guaranteed they will be damaged., some beyond salvation.

Inga

That must have been scary Inga. It was scary here where I live and we only got tropical storm force winds here.

Back on the leak subject...is there any way I would know in the future if I get more pinhole leaks and they are not visible like this one was? The triangle on the meter did not spin from this one--there wasn't enough water leaking to cause it to move, I guess.

My concern is whether an actual flooding of the house could happen if I wait and see on this, instead of repiping now...I'm willing to take the risk of having to pay for a repair, but not a major catastrophe.

Thanks.

John,

Thinking back when we were doing major renovation (a total gut job) I was trying to get the sheet rock guy to come back and finish. He apparently had a deal with the plumber when someones ceiling caved in the plumber fixed the leak part and then wanted the sheet rock fixed pronto. They left whatever they were doing and fixed the ceiling. The plumber must have paid them a premium.

Don't know if it was due to pipes pitted or leaking but that kind of thing happens a lot I think.

Is there a way you can crawl up there and inspect the plumbing yourself? If you don't see any leaking, probably nothing to worry about right now. If it happens at some time and your ceiling caves in because it's soaked, realistically it's not the end of the world. OK I'm not making light of the situation but it's all fixable as long as you're not off on a 2 year cruise while things rot and mildew. It will not do major damage other than your pocket book.. Replace plumbing and sheet rock, then paint. A PITA but not serious in the greater scheme of things.

I hope you can figure it out because thinking and worrying about what may or may not happen can often be worse than the actual happening. I also hope crawling up there is easier than in our house. When I was 50 no problem, now not too keen on crawling thru insulation etc making sure I don't fall thru the sheet rock where there's no plywood. If you can't do that maybe you can find a trusted young person with some maxi to do the inspection.

I'm pulling for you.

Thanks Inga but isn't the copper piping buried under a slab in a slab on grade house? I've been in the attic to replace an exhaust fan and I don't remember seeing pipes in there. Although it was awhile ago and maybe I was so focused on what I was doing that I didn't notice the pipes if there were there...

John,

Our house here has AC, electrical and water up in the attic and waste pipe under the slab. I think it's pretty normal around here anyhow. Unfortunately the attic is so small you have to crawl on your stomach to get around but it's doable. My shop has water and waste under the slab and has copper pipes because I didn't know about the water here and neither did my contractor who came off island. So far I haven't had a problem.

I'm sorry That does complicate things for you.. Since you're not really sure you have a problem, I wouldn't cut up the slab. The water pipes could also be under insulation in your attic, ours are.

Inga

OK thanks. The layout of your house sounds different that what we have here. The AC condensor is outside here, next to the house.

I'm sorry for not being clear, the condenser is outside here as well. The duct work is up in the attic along with water pipes and electrical wiring

Oh okay...I misunderstood what you meant...I have ductwork in mine as well. I'll go take another peek in there to see if there are any pipes.

There should be portions of the copper visible under sinks, and at other outlets. Part of how visible the rest will be is determined by how they plumbed the hot water. That's the first place that I would look at the pipes.

Examine the copper leaving the hot water tank, and try to see where it goes. Look at it's condition, and if it too goes under the slab. That will always be the first pipe to leak. And it will expensive, because you're leaking water that you paid to heat.

Look back at your past utility bills for the amount of water usage. Look at when you had the leak, and compare that to the other months. Keep an eye on the usage amount every month. If you get a good sized under slab leak, all of your flooring can be damaged. And the moisture can wick up through the studs and give you mold issues behind the walls.

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Anywhere near ocean with salt corrosion a factor? Being we are looking at outside. If that is the case you can paint the pipes the color of your choice for protection. They do that with iron pipe for gas. Rustoleum or other oil based works best for this.

Personally dont have a problem with PEX, I use it myself. PVC supply can get brittle and break easy. The problems with pex are usually related to the quality of the fittings used.

While copper usually is the most durable option, if corrosion is a big problem in your area you might have to ditch copper for a plastic, unless you want a recurring problem.

Thanks GreenDesigns....it is something to think about.

Maybe I will get some more estimates for the repipe. I may be able to find someone to do it for less than $3500.

Vith I'm in Orlando so I don't think salt corrosion is a factor here.