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Rooting of side branches on Hemlock

User
5 years ago

After an initial attempt at rooting cuttings of Tsuga canadensis, I want to give it another try. My tree is small and I don't want to take very many top branches this time around. I am doing this again just to work at perfecting my technique. So to have enough total cuttings, I thought I would use a few bottom branches that I will probably remove next year anyways because of their low proximity to the ground.

My question is, will these side branches only yield shrub style trees that grow sideways? Will there be any chance of some of them growing up like a species tree? Is so, is there percentage that could be given or expected?

I plan to do some other types of trees at the same time but thought if I use some bottom branches, I would have a large enough batch to make doing this worthwhile.

Comments (73)

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    *** Kids please, don't try this at home without checking with your parents ***

    Tested the bottle for pressure. Just guessing amounts so not to get too much pressure, I used about 6 oz. vinegar and one heaping teaspoon baking soda. Funneled the vinegar into the bottle. Wrapped baking soda in tissue like a cigar so it would fit into bottle easily. Dropped it in and instead of putting the cap on, I just held the spout closed with my hand while the soda and vinegar fizzed, just in case it couldn't take all the pressure. The bottle handled the pressure very good but before the soda completely fizzled out, I put the cap on and let some pressure build up inside the bottle.

    (No coffee was used or harmed during this experiment.) :-))

    Once the fizzing subsided and I was sure it was only co2 left inside the bottle, I put the valve near the jar with the lit candle inside and opened the valve until I could hear hissing of the gas coming out. In about 10 seconds, it filled the jar with co2 and extinguished the flame. :-) )


    I feel more confident now knowing the bottle & valve will take the pressure. This should make it easy to accomplish feeding my cuttings with co2 and it appears that one batch, as described above, will supply enough co2 for all 5 bags at one time. So it beats investing a lot of $$ just to try something.

    My valve was letting a little gas out around the cap so I sealed it with silicon rubber and will wait for that to cure before I mix another batch and try to feed it into the bags. So maybe tonight or for sure tomorrow.

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    The thin layer of silicon rubber solidified faster than I thought, so I went ahead and gave my cuttings their first dose of co2.

    First I sucked two, 2 oz. syringes out of each of all 5 bags. You could see the bags sort of collapse a little. They weren't real full to start with so I might not take any out next time, just to keep the bags inflated real nice. :^)

    Anyways, it went pretty good for never having done this before. Simply put, I mixed the co2 and put the cap on immediately but had the valve in the open position, and that let some air bleed out.

    Then closed the valve and attached hose #1 to the output of the bottle. Opened the valve and watched the bag inflate slightly, then closed the valve and pinched off the hose again with the binder clip. Rinse repeat for 5 bags. Easy.

    I did have to mix two batches to do all 5 bags. But I may increased the mix and/or probably won't waste as much co2 when I get the hang of bleeding out air only.

    I think this first time maybe the most important because with all the h2o2 I used sterilizing pot media, I'm thinking there may be high levels of oxygen right now from that all breaking down. I really don't know about that part but I know this, my cuttings just got an elevated amount of co2.


    Hoses with binder clips. Hoses doubled over and clamped.


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  • Brandon Johnson Zone 5b
    5 years ago

    Thanks for all the updates. I'm extremely interested in this little DIY

    User thanked Brandon Johnson Zone 5b
  • Jacob Bisharat VA zone 7A/7B
    5 years ago

    Thanks Bill

    User thanked Jacob Bisharat VA zone 7A/7B
  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    no problem! fun to share.


    As I said, I have no idea exactly how much co2 was injected into each bag.


    I did some calculations on 2 gallon bags and 2 oz pure co2. My math revealed it could possibly be twice what the ACS article called for.

    (They have an air exchange system that injects up to 4,400 ppm every nine minutes for 14 hrs/day.)

    So if I inject that high or higher amount, into a sealed system, I would think I need to give it some time to get used up, before adding more. And it's way above my pay grade to figure out how fast cuttings use up co2. :-)

    Hence a wild guess on how often to administer the co2.


    I might give it another shot of co2 on Monday. ;-)


    BTW: Anyone have an idea of what to look for if your cuttings are getting too much co2?

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Brandon , Jacob,

    HERE is an interesting article about supplying co2. They talk about pads you can buy that are made just for propagation trays etc. May be some good alternatives. And reasons for increasing co2.

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Just for the record:

    I mixed another batch of co2 this am.

    I've read that plants, during night time respiration will give off up to half of the co2 they take in during daytime photo synthesis. Now I don't think cuttings will act exactly like established, growing plants but it's evident that co2, may disperse more slowly, inside a closed environment than one might expect. So in the future, I'll watch how often I administer co2 to my cuttings.

    After connecting each hose, I opened the valve until I saw the wrinkles in the bag sort of move or expand a little (You can hear the hiss of co2 at the valve a few seconds before the bags show it). The valve (aquarium air valve) shuts off with a couple of turns, so easy on/off..

    This is the third day since initiation of 'gassing' my cuttings. They should have plenty for a while (wag) now. I'll go to once a week or even longer from now on, to prevent overdoing it. The goal here is to raise co2 levels over the length of the rooting period, I don't think it will take all that much added co2 to do that.

    FWIW: One batch of co2 was enough for all 5 bags although I did add a couple oz. vinegar to the bottle, after bag #4 to generate enough pressure to do the 5th and final bag. :-)

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Basement temp: 55-60 d (f).

    Bottom temp @ thermostat: 69.8-71.7 d (f). (set @ 70)

    Temp on table top under lights: 63-68 d (f). (varies day/night)

    All pretty consistent since started last Tuesday.

  • Heruga (7a Northern NJ)
    5 years ago

    Man you are a scientist here. I'd say most of your cuttings will root in response to all your effort in this! Keep updated, I am especially interested in your tsuga cuttings as I am planning to attempt some myself in the future.

    User thanked Heruga (7a Northern NJ)
  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Thanks! I will.

    The hard part with bags, is avoiding checking the cuttings at will. I'll probably wait at least a month before I open any.

    Hope you're right. :^)

  • Heruga (7a Northern NJ)
    5 years ago

    Oh is it that crucial to not open up the bags? I do that once a week to check to see if any of my cuttings are browning. I also take it out of the bag to water when it starts getting dry.

    User thanked Heruga (7a Northern NJ)
  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    When keeping plants in an uber high humidity set up, I don't think it hurts to open the bags occasionally. So no, probably not crucial but the fewer times the better imo.


    What I was thinking in my previous post was, being this is a 'show & tell' experiment, it would be nicer if I only had to 'raise the lid' to have access to the pots. Then I could take pictures to show here as things progress. I'll just have more messing around with a bag set up and hoses.


    I can see inside the bags, after the lights shut off, using a flashlight, so I really don't need to open the bags to check the tops. And I'll probably still check for the beginning of roots before long. :-)


  • Brandon Johnson Zone 5b
    5 years ago

    Bill,


    I've been using a flashlight to check mine as well, through the dome on my trays. I was wondering, are we interrupting the photoperiod?


    If we are, that would explain why my pine cuttings are beginning to candle after 10 days, because I'm tricking them into thinking it is spring time, even though the temps are low. Even a brief exposure to light in the middle of the night cycle can cause a plant to think it is experiencing longer days.

    User thanked Brandon Johnson Zone 5b
  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    no, unless you are using an unusually powerful flashlight, for a very long time, I don't think the plants care. Even in the wild, plants have to deal with moonlight and starlight and still stay in season. :o)

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I think our plants go more by the cold dormant period they require to stay on track. And the fact that we warm them, a little too much sometime, tells them spring is here.

    That's why they say cool heads and warm feet for rooting.

    Ideally, ambient air temps ~40f help slow tops from budding.

    Last year, I kept my air temp ~40-50 and didn't see top growth until late April. Well some of the Thuja showed some top growth earlier.

  • illsstep
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Brandon -

    From what I have read, night interruption lighting sufficient to trigger a response can be very low intensity - but must last for several hours each night. I doubt checking with a flashlight is going to make any difference. More likely, the warm air temperatures in your propagation area (60°+, if I remember) is responsible for the new growth.

    User thanked illsstep
  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I agree. Plants don't respond that quickly. Probably would take a few to many days/nights before a change in light would make a plant respond and at a reasonable intensity. I've read not to even give your cuttings light for the first several days after sticking, because they don't start photosynthesis right away.

    Now warmth on the other hand, will wake up plants in a week. Of coarse this all varies on plant type.

    And, keeping the tops cool and roots warm is no easy task. Last year, I would open the sliding window behind my chamber, about a quarter of an inch, so the frigid air would flow into my chamber. One morning I came down to find my air thermometer at 37F at pot level (The roots themselves on the mat were 68F). Even at that, during the day, the ambient air would get mid to high 50's from the lights.

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Looking back on this thread and maybe I missed it but my strategy and inspiration for this years rooting, came from an article in the ACS news called 'New Propagation Model', Pointed out to me by Dave Olszyk during a discussion on another thread. I realize now, I didn't link it in this thread until now.

    They found by using Blue LED lights and elevated levels of co2, they could cut the time it took for the beginning of root formation remarkably (see article linked above).

    I am not a scientist, nor have I played one on TV but from an early age I had interests and hobbies in plants, electronics and chemistry. Spent some time in training and working as an aircraft machinist (B52), advertising specialties, agriculture, marine industry, manufacturing, fabricating and computers. So my qualifications are mainly life experience and am now retired and do these things on this board strictly for fun as a hobby. There, now you know my background (short version lol). 8^)

    Anyways, I tried to supply all the things I was able to, to duplicate how the rooting was done in the ACS article and didn't want to spend the kind of money they did. lol. And I don't have the equipment to measure light and co2, so again, trying to learn and don't know how this will all turn out. But I enjoy the challenge and I'm hoping I learned enough to pull it off. lol

    I don't think you can give the plants too much light but I think you can give them too much co2. So I'm just keeping the co2 applications spread out and will check on things occasionally to see what co2 poisoning of plants looks like. lol

    I should check for roots every couple of weeks so I can report how it's going but I really want to have success with these so I may not disturb them as much as I should for 'show n tell'. I have enough pots of Juniperus v. I can afford to loose a bunch of those. The rest I'll wait longer in hopes of potting them up for future trees, we'll see.

  • illsstep
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    That article didn't mention the light levels they settled on, unless I overlooked it.

    Light levels can be hard to measure accurately without expensive equipment. But a hobby grower can get some good approximations by using a light meter app on their phone to measure lux, and using a conversion factor found online to convert lux into PPFD. PPFD is a measure of how much "useful" (for photosynthesis) light a plant is receiving.

    If you're interested, Bill, I found a website recently that does the conversion for you. If you measure the lux using a phone app in your grow chamber, you can plug that value into this website and choose "monochromatic blue LED 450 nm" as your conversion factor. I think that's close to what you're using, or did I remember that incorrectly?

    It will give you a PPFD value. Typically, a PPFD value of 100-200 is recommended for initial rooting for cuttings. The monochromatic blue light may change that target, but it would still be a good starting point, and it should at least tell you if you are providing way too much or way too little light!

    The website is:

    https://www.waveformlighting.com/horticulture/convert-lux-to-ppfd-online-calculator

    This is how I measure light levels for my own indoor growing and propagation. I realize it isn't a perfectly accurate method, but I feel that it gets me close enough that I can make productive decisions about light levels for my plants.

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  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    The intensity that they stated in the article was [ wavelength of 450 nm with an intensity of 423 micromoles ] And they also used the term 'summer light intensities' so I'm assuming straight up sun.

    GE told me the bulbs I bought had 20 chips in each. It's been a while but I used a general light output of the chips and came out with plenty of umols/sec using 6 bulbs. That's why I went with 12 hrs/day instead of 14. It was my understanding the plant could take more but then lessen the hours. The distance of bulbs from the plant and the square inches it covers also makes a big difference with intensity, so it can get math intensive.


    But it would be fun to compare what a light meter with conversion says to my calculations.

    I'll see if I can find the app. It might take me a while as I have a busy week coming up.

    Thanks!

  • illsstep
    5 years ago

    Ooh.. I missed that. Interestingly, "423 micromoles" is a bit vague. Since they describe it as the intensity, they might mean that the lights output 423 micromoles per second (PPF - photosynthetic proton flux).

    Or maybe they meant the intensity reaching the cuttings is 423 micromoles per second per meter squared (PPFD - photosynthetic proton flux density). This is a measure that takes the area, distance from the light source, etc. into account, that you mentioned.

    Direct sun is around 2000 PPFD, so it doesn't sound like they used light intensities close to that. PPFD in the 400-500 range, however, could produce a similar daily total amount of light (if the lights are left on 24 hours a day!) to a summer day in northern latitudes. Maybe that's what they meant.

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  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    ' Or maybe they meant the intensity reaching the cuttings is 423 micromoles per second per meter squared (PPFD - photosynthetic proton flux density). '

    Yes, that was the figure I calculated for. I may have more in the area of 650 or so but thought I could reduce the number of bulbs but opted to reduce the number of hours because 6 bulbs covered my heat mat area perfectly, when placed at a distance that the emitted heat is not an issue.

    'Maybe that's what they meant.'

    Ha! Yes, there's always a bit of ambiguity in what a fellow finds on line. I could contact Jon but really, it's not all that important. I have a very strong light source, each one is a 'Spot Light' that focuses all the light in one direction (a cone shaped beam) and it's not just light, it's light with the correct wavelength for enhancing root development. What more could you ask for $60? :-)

    And being it's my own personal equipment, I'll be able to adjust, if needed, next time. In the meantime, it appears the plants love it.

    You don't want to see the light of my Blue LED's unprotected, for any amount of time. (Link to: Read about Blue light). Even a momentary exposure makes every other light source look orange for a short time. So that can't be good no matter who you are. :^)

  • illsstep
    5 years ago

    Sounds like a pretty neat setup :) I'll be curious to see how your cuttings do under such intense light. I'm not sure any of the information (or experience) I have regarding light intensity during propagation will even apply in your case, with that monochromatic light and CO2 supplementation. So I'm really fascinated!

    It's been about 5 weeks since I stuck my own Tsuga cuttings. I checked the bottoms of the cells for root tips poking out, but nothing yet (as expected). I'm generally not in the habit of tugging on or lifting cuttings to check for roots.. so I'll look at the bottoms again in another month or so.

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  • Brandon Johnson Zone 5b
    5 years ago

    Did some digging. An article on Grower Talks says " Typically, four hours of NI lighting is sufficient for plants that demonstrate an long day response" so, you guys are right. Thanks!


    User thanked Brandon Johnson Zone 5b
  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Thanks for the confirmation Brandon.


    #3 co2 enrichment administered today - 2-25-2019 @7 days from last treatment. 8^)


  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    " I'm not sure any of the information (or experience) I have regarding light intensity during propagation will even apply in your case, with that monochromatic light and CO2 supplementation. "

    It's a whole new world for me too. I think I have the intensity in the ballpark but other things are beginning to come to mind, like is there a point where rooting has progressed to where I can or should take the blue lights off and possibly change to a more wide spectrum light?

    Early in the game, the plants need only blue light to cause roots to begin to form. But at what point is that part over and the new roots want to start taking food from the leaves? idk.

    I know when they're ready to be finished off in the early summer, it's suggested to use only 'bright shade'. So it makes me wonder if there isn't another phase between the initial rooting and finishing off.

    :^)

  • illsstep
    5 years ago

    From what I have read, photosynthesis comes partly to a standstill until a cutting initiates new roots. The new roots signal the leaves to resume photosynthesis. So maybe sooner than later after roots appear? Surely your cuttings would benefit from a more balanced spectrum when trying to fully photosynthesize. Pure guesswork on my part though, I really have no idea!

    Regarding initial rooting and finishing off.. I use two areas for my propagation, both indoors under LED and fog. The first, for initial root formation, is very high humidity (87-90%) and relatively low light (about 250-300 PPFD.. I go a bit higher than typical recommendations because the fog is thick enough to block some light). After roots have started, I fertilize and move the cuttings to area #2, which is higher light (500-600 PPFD) and less humidity (75-80%). They stay there until roots fill the plugs (I use 4" deep cell trays) and they are pushing new top growth. Then they are planted into 1 gallon containers and moved outdoors.

    Part of the reason I use two areas, though, is that as my interests over time have shifted towards propagation from more generalized indoor growing, I realized this setup would be a better use of the areas I had already built. But it sure seems to work well.

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  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Nice to hear from someone that has much more experience working with rooting than me. :-)


    But.... if conifer cuttings don't photosynthesize until roots appear, there would no point in putting blue light vs white light on them in the first place, would there? lol


    Maybe I should just quit over thinking this and just let it buck! lol


    Thanks for the encouragement and support illsstep!


  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Report:

    Male strobili beginning to show up on the tips of the Arborvitae occidentalis. I haven't been able to keep ambient air temps as cool as I did last year, so guess I can expect some top growth. Good sign that I haven't overdone the co2 ? At least they don't look dead. C'mon roots! :^>



  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Report:

    Bag #1 not looking good.


    I noticed a few days after sticking, bag #1 was leaking air. Upon examination, the silicon caulk that was supposed to seal the hole where the thermostat sensor cord entered the bag, for some reason, had not adhered to the plastic bag, letting air both in and out.

    I promptly covered the area with high quality, nylon reinforced tape. But still ended up to be a wrinkle in the plastic that prevented air tight closure. So at week two, leakage was still present. Result may have been lower humidity and some respiration occurring of the inside atmosphere of the bag. I don't think this was the sole cause of the desiccation found but it probably didn't help anything.


    This bag contained pure Tsuga canadensis. To give some background, I had taken the cuttings later in the year than last time and took them after we had several -40's F and 45 mph winds with the sun shining that lasted for several days, so it's possible that the cuttings were in tough shape when I brought them in, even though they looked 'green'. When I look at the source of the cuttings outside, the parent tree, is now browning worse than I have ever saw and to the point it could be the end of that tree.


    Another contributing factor could be because Tsuga is known to be sensitive to urban pollution, maybe the co2 was not a good idea for this species, it may be more sensitive in that way and I'm sure #1 bag got it's fair share of co2.


    In hindsight, it may have been better to use only blue light for this first year, to get those issues worked out before adding the co2. That way I could tell if the LED light alone would enhanced rooting of a 'hard to root' plant like Tsuga and Juniper v. And using separate bags, I could have co2'd just the Thuja and Juniper, but live and learn right?


    To finish the story, some of the branches were brown and some of the green needles fell off at the touch. Like a very dry cuttings would.

    One good thing about multiple bags, is, if one bags fails, the others may succeed.

    I fixed the leak and will leave bag #1 in place because that's the heat sensor bag and some of the cuttings were green and may still be viable. so it won' hurt to leave them, to see what happens.


    Think I'll stop the co2 on bag #2 which is also pure Tsuga c.


    As an aside, I'm losing interest with Tsuga canadensis anyways, as it's becoming more and more apparent to me that it's strictly a zone 4 occupant. Even the 'outliers' that make it a Minnesota 'native' species, dwell in zone 4 and more protected areas.


  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Update:

    Day 32

    Just for a fair comparison of roots forming @ day 32 in the ACS article. :-)

    Removed 3 Thuja occidentalis cuttings and 1 Juniperus virginianna from rooting pots. Used a dental pick to loosen media around cutting so as not to break anything during process. The Thuja cuttings were from various parts of the branches.

    Doesn't look like anything's happening.


    Haven't applied any additional co2 since the 2-25 application. There was a bit of browning on some of both Thuja and Juniper, so I may have to work on a more precise method of co2 application for next time. :-)

    After I closed up both bags, I used my breath to inflate all 5 bags, as all were looking a little saggy.

    I figure @ 3-4% co2 in normal exhaled breath, @ around one quart total into an 8 quart bag, I'm probably safer than using 100% raw co2 even at low amounts. So I think we'll go with that the remaining time for this experiment.

    I didn't see any reason to check the Tsuga yet. If Thuja isn't showing anything, Tsuga sure wouldn't be, so we'll wait opening bag #2 for maybe another month or so. (The Tsuga in bag #2 really looks pretty good still, just viewing it from outside the bag).


    ETA: My Thuja was from a fairly mature tree. I used a pole saw to reach about half way up the 25-30 ft. multi-trunk tree. So possibly this tree is not young enough to provide viable cuttings that will root. Just FYI. 8^)

  • User
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Turned off 2 of the light bulbs last night.

    With our balmy daytime weather in the 30's and 40's, my heat mat thermostat is registering close to 75 F during the day when lights are on. The heat mat doesn't run but the lights kept the temp around 71 F when set at 69 and outside temps were below freezing. Now it's slowly rising.

    At night everything runs normal with sensor temp staying within a degree +- of what thermostat is set for.

    I have a plan to change my rooting setup to floor level next time. I think things will stay cooler, longer in the season that way.

    For now, we're running only 4 bulbs. :^)


  • illsstep
    4 years ago

    At 2.5 months, none of my Tsuga cuttings had callused or shown any root initiation. Since the rest of my winter cuttings had rooted by this point and I needed the space to start a new round, I went ahead and tossed them. Oh well! I may try again next year with those.

    User thanked illsstep
  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Thanks for that report!

    Mine will have been stuck for 2 month in another week but I really haven't paid much attention to them. The severe cold and wind before I took my cuttings gives me doubts about them. They're not hurting anything so they can sit there for another month or until it gets too warm for them. So far, still 60 F in my basement. I learned a lot either way.


  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    4 years ago

    why not just place them outdoors when the weather warms ... and just basically ignore them all summer.. and see if you get any result by fall???


    perhaps set them near the house spigot.. so you can give them a splash of water whenever ... during the summer ...


    its an experiment.. why abandon all hope too soon ... ???


    ken

    User thanked ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    That's what I plan to do once it warms up around here. and the basement temps rise. I have a spot by the side of the front steps (north side of house) where it gets bright shade in the afternoon. I can take the pots out of the bags and set everything inside an old aquarium that has a gallon of water and gravel in the bottom and sealed at the top. Humidity stays somewhat elevated and less chance of me forgetting to check for water and going dry. They can stay there until fall or everything molds, whichever comes first. :^))

    I had beginnings of adventitious roots, along one stem @ about 3 months, last year (End of April) so I'm going to wait as long as I can before removing them from the uber high hunmidity in sealed bags.

  • illsstep
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    If you were talking to me Ken, I ditched them because I didn't want them taking up space in my propagation area when other projects I've been planning need it. I started them when I had a slot open for a few months just to see what would happen. No loss.

  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Update:

    Day 68

    Two months and ~7 days have passed since sticking my cuttings. They looked fine through the plastic but it appeared that some bags could use water added. The temperatures have been staying good with 4 light bulbs instead of 6 and I think it's still plenty of umol strength with 4.

    Started by opening bag #5 with only Thuja o. There were a few that were partially browning so I pulled them and pulled one nicer, greener one from each pot. Nothing showing yet. No mold. Added water and zip closed.

    Checked #4 & #3 with only Juniper v. There were some looking a little dry so pulled them and pulled a couple that looked much better. Nothing showing yet. No mold. Added water and zip closed.

    Checked bag #2 with only Tsuga c. There were some that browned heavily I think from over dose of CO2 early on. But some that looked pretty good and some that looked a little dry. I pulled the brown and dry ones and one or two that looked better but didn't care to pull any real nice ones. Nothing showing yet. No mold. Added water and zip closed #2.

    Bag #2 below, still looks viable. Some new growth on some branch tips but looking fresh and green.


    Checked bag #1 and was dismayed to find that on one side of the pot, about 1/4 way along the one end, every plant was covered with fine layer/sheet, like a veil of white mold. The plants were nice and green looking under the fluffy white stuff. It was the side where the heat sensor cable comes through and I knew I had some air leakage at that point so maybe that's why? So I pulled all that had mold on them. The middle of that same pot had browned so i pulled them also but I couldn't remove the pot itself, full of media, because it's the one with the heat sensor in it.

    So when I got done, The one pot looked empty except for 2 or 3 cuttings on the far side of the pot. The other pot looked fine and everything was nice and green.

    I didn't know if I should leave those 2 or 3 in there so I pulled one that was originating from the corner of the pot but laying down toward the moldy side but something caught my eye. The part of the cutting stem under the media, looked like it had burnt (possibly from the auxin treatment ?) I thought I went with a weaker mix than last year and didn't have trouble back then. But just above the damage, barely above ground level on the living part of the stem, I saw reddish color 'bumps'.

    After two months and one week to be exact, I have initiation of adventitious roots on Tsuga canadensis.


    There are three 'bumps' (one is hidden on back side). And all 3 are positioned radially around the stem. :^)

    This is actually almost a month earlier than last year because I started Jan. 19th and this year started Feb. 14th and I didn't get bumps last year until April 27th.

    Bag #1 Still has a nice pot full left in it so I watered and zip closed.

    Arrow pointing to cutting with bumps.


    I didn't mess with checking the other pot in bag #1 very well at all but it's early yet.


    Not sure what but I think I'm on to something. ha ha! :o]


  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Day 87:


    Heat mat thermostat been staying between 69,0 night time and getting up to 74.5d F day temps.

    So I decided to turn off 2 more blue lights and take the aluminum foil off from between the chamber and window curtain. I'm hoping to keep cuttings inside for another few weeks under the high humidity. If I have to, I can turn off all blue LED's and only have ambient curtained window light. That hopefully will bring the temps down so I can keep the (heat mat) humidity up longer.


    So for now, I should still be getting a fair amount of blue light and fairly bright diffused light for a few/several hours in the 6:00 to 9:30 AM range. Probably about time for this change anyways.


    I've been partially replacing air in bag #1 every 4-5 days to help prevent mold from developing, if possible (bag #1 the one with air leak).

    Didn't open any bags this time. Maybe at day 100 or by end of month we'll have another look inside at the cuttings. I maybe putting them outside by then.

    :^)

  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Decided to turn off Blue LED's entirely today. I'm keeping the sealed bags/high humidity/heat mat on for now until I set everything outside in a sealed container at the end of the month.

    My thoughts are, if rooting has begun, the plants are starting standard photosynthesis by now, and the early morning, wide spectrum sun light, should be useful to the plants at this stage.

    They'll be going outside in a couple of weeks anyways, so a transition from all blue light to outside light, which has commenced already by using both kinds of light for the last few days, would be the logical move.

    I opened the curtain to allow a couple of hours of direct, low sun angle, window light into the chamber. I figure with high humidity conditions in sealed bags, any increase in transpiration shouldn't be a problem, right?

    Below, east window view. There are no buildings next to me so by 7:00, sun breaks above the distant trees and by 9:00 has already moved to the south enough so it's not hitting the inside of the chamber. The rest of the day, only indirect, ambient, outside light will enter the window. :-)


  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Day 95.


    A couple of the bags needed more water so I ended up opening all 5 bags.

    #5 with the Thuja o. had a few dead tips and a couple of those had a small aura of white mold on them. There was one cutting looking a little dry and beginning to brown so I pulled it. There is still some pretty nice looking specimens in this bag. i for the first time with this batch, sprayed the inside of the bag with a weak fungicide solution.

    #4 with juniperus v. had a few dried out looking ones so pulled them and fungicide sprayed.

    #3 with j.v. looks great, all very clean and healthy specimens. Gave them a shot of fungicide.

    #2 with Tsuga c. had a couple dead spots sporting mold so they got sprayed too.

    #1 with T.c. looked very good considering but some of the new growth on a couple of plants, was shrinking down some.

    I had put the cutting I found last time, with the bumps on it, back into the media with the bumps barely under the media. I looked for it today and thought I could see what looked like a continuation of what was the largest bump, extended between the granules of perlite, so that one might still be growing. Sprayed with fungicide.


    It appears to me it's time get these pots out of the bags and into the aquarium and placed outside in the bright shade. Hopefully sometime this week.

    When I learned my tote would be too small for all 10 pots, I picked up a used 10 gal. Aquarium cheap. I washed and sterilized it the other day so it's ready to go and hopefully the change from the bags to the tank will slow the formation of molds and pathogens for another few/several weeks. This time I'm putting a board on top of the stretch wrap. :^)


  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Day 100:


    Nothing to report.


    It's been staying so cool and rainy (high 50's tops, low 40's nights), I haven't been in any hurry to move the cuttings out of their warmish, high humidity environment.


    I've already had seedlings here go dormant this spring, including a Picea abies and Celtis occidentalis. They look funny with winter buds this time of year, so might just wait until the end of next week (predicting low 70's) before I put the cuttings outside.

    I have everything I need to do it, just have to get out there and do the work.


    I stripped all the black plastic off the outside of the chamber, a few days ago but left the aluminum foil on 2 sides and 'flip up' door to reflect the window light. Been mostly cloudy 'diffused' bright light and a few mornings very red, low angle direct sun for an hour or two.




  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Day 105:


    Three and one half months. Time to move things outside.

    Removed the heat mat the other day. This to drop temps and humidity to help acclimate the plants to conditions outside.


    The contents of all pots looked remarkably turgid, green and healthy, considering the mishaps with leaky air by sensor cord, lavish CO2 applications and removal of failed plants along the way.


    Appeared to be something fuzzy, possibly mold on the surface of the media in some areas, could be something else, what do I know?


    The Junipers looked the best of all (go figure, right? haha).

    Thuja still has some nice looking specimens but remember, cuttings were from an older tree so we'll have to see about those later.


    With stems firmly planted in the media, I couldn't see a whole lot by merely looking.

    But I did spot one Tsuga that was sending out roots from just above the media. Looked to be 7 or 8 new roots, some ~3/4" L., positioned radially around the stem. Some were entering the media and some were heading that direction (they even had the little red tip like regular seed radicals ). Hopefully there are a few more cuttings doing this out of sight but I'm just glad to have visible progress to show & tell. All I can say is, rooting Tsuga canadensis is easy! lol

    I think some of the stems 'burned' from last years 'dip & grow' (?) and that caused roots to push from above the media bc that's where the healthy stem tissue ends.


    So put some disinfected, washed gravel and 1 gal. distilled water in the sterilized aquarium (gave the water a good squirt of h2o2 beforehand). Set the pots inside and used food quality stretch wrap over the top of that tank and placed a board with a rock on top to help prevent the catastrophe I had last year. Very bright location, no direct sun.


    For some reason, only 8 pots fit into the aquarium. :? Must've used the wrong pots to check for this.

    So guess which 2 extra pots get to be in a bag? :^)


    See ya in August! :o)


  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Update:

    I opened the plastic on the tank to lower the water level which was covering a half inch of the pot bottoms and didn't know if the water would wick up further and keep the roots too wet. So didn't want to leave it that way for another month.

    Some of the Thuja o. was turning yellow and some of those were beginning to mold. So removed them and sprayed fungicide on pots left with Thuja. Still some nice Thuja cuttings remain in those pots. The rest of the pots looked pretty clean, with little new growth coming on the Tsuga and Juniper. Sprayed a mist of water + h2o2 on those anyways, preemptive?

    Pumped out some of the standing water using my 2 oz syringe, 10-15 of those and the water level was below the top of the gravel. Covered with new piece of plastic and sealed.

    One yellowing cutting I pulled showed a cluster of callus and 3 tiny roots, very thin in diameter, like an adventitious root, high on a stump would look like.

    On the other side, what looked like a 'real' root bump starting in. Pretty good overall considering these are off an old tree.


    The stem has that burnt look but never used 'Dip n Grow' on the Thuja (?). Could it have possibly been something to do with the heavy CO2 collecting at the bottom of the pots, early in the game?

    We'll see if I can get to beginning of August before another check and possible potting up of any survivors. :^)

  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Final update for this thread.


    First, I made two mistakes.

    One, what appeared to me to be mold on top of the media in the pots, turned out to be a form of algae. It appeared black and grew to be about an inch tall, like fuzz but now I see it turned green, looked a little 'leafy' and didn't seem to be harmful. So I treated for mold that wasn't there.


    Two, never put a piece of screen in the bottom of your pots, trust me, just don't. :-))


    The Juniper seemed to be the most robust when it comes to rooting. There were thick roots coming out the drain holes and roots running all over inside the pots. Not every cutting rooted but a very high percentage did, although some that rooted appeared to have began more recently and were behind the more developed ones.


    A couple of the better contenders:




    There were only half a dozen Thuja left in the two pots but they did great considering cuttings were from an old tree (30-40 yo ?). There were a couple with well developed roots, the rest were rooted to a lesser extent and had some callus bulbs with no roots. One had a big ball of callus only on the basal end.




    There were plenty of Tsuga with 4 pots total, although some looked a little beat up with browning in spots, even new shoots that sprouted and died since sticking. I had thick stems, thin stems, big cuttings, small cuttings and it all didn't seem to matter, a high percentage of the cuttings had roots, although here too some were behind, with roots less than an inch and not quite ready for potting.


    I potted the one below just because the roots were so nice.


    Not every cutting rooted and I didn't figure percentages but there were plenty more rooted cuttings than I have facilities or ambition to take care of here, so I just potted a few Tsuga, a Thuja and one Juniper.


    Conclusion:

    Upright junipers are fast and easy to root. Thuja is fast and easy to root. Tsuga is fast and easy to root. lol


    It was fun working on and implementing this method. Thanks for all the help! People here are so willing the share and thanks for putting up with me, all this time, fumbling through this. :)


  • Heruga (7a Northern NJ)
    4 years ago

    Wow congrats! That is great. All your effort and time paid off. Your basically an expert now that you can even root a Tsuga. Now if only I had the patience and time to try to go through all you did .. I basically gave up on trying to grow conifers from cuttings and was going to start seed growing them instead but after seeing your cuttings I might try some of my junipers and Taxus this year.

    Right now I’m having fun growing bunch of perennials cuttings for fun. Good way make up for all the disappointment and distress of failing my hinoki cuttings 2 years in a row.


    User thanked Heruga (7a Northern NJ)
  • tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
    4 years ago

    Nice work. Now I know who to contact to root cultivars...;-)

    tj

    User thanked tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱
  • User thanked Jacob Bisharat VA zone 7A/7B
  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Thanks everyone!

    Picture of the finished product:

    I misted them all afternoon, then tented for the night and put them back into the bright shade. Our nights get near 100% RH but afternoons can be back to 50% RH. with wind. I'll vent the tent incrementally to help acclimate them to the real world. :-)

  • User
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    One month since potting.

    Must've vented a little to strong after 2 weeks in the tent. I lost some needles on the far two. Our humidity here changes radically and things happen fast.

    Now they seem to be vending for themselves after recently being exposed for several days of high humidity, clouds and some occasional misty rains. They're getting an hour or two of early morning sun and an hour or so of dappled sun in the late afternoon. Just watering them regularly.