In case nobody has mentioned it, Autumn Sunset is a very attractive sport of Westerland. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.201526

In its day, Westerland must have seemed like a breakthrough marvel of modern breeding, I'm sure. Its a very good plant in the right climate, but in harsh winter climates, I suspect it will always be a battle to keep it going.

I have a 17 year old specimen here, and in 2015 the Polar Vortex blew through here (a week of Minus 15F nights) and Westerland was killed to the ground. In fact, it didn't make any growth until spring of 2017, having given the impression it was dead. But it is weak and doesn't give me much hope that it will ever return to its former glory, and I'm fine with that: Although the bloom color is terrific, and it has a four out of five star fragrance (a very modern scent, though, and far from my favorite), I found the plant coarse in habit, growing stiffly upright and presenting all of its blooms in the top 1/3, facing the sky. (Give me a lax climber with pendulous panicles any day - pardon if that sounds a bit lascivious) Westerland's thorns are flesh-rippers too. Nasty, nasty.

But if you have a climate it likes, and a way to display it to its best, then it can be a lovely addition to a garden. I'm critical of it more for its style than its ability to satisfy in general.

I've had two. One didn't make it through it's first winter, the other lives on and on (approx. 8 years) without care. It's in a hard to reach spot, but it doesn't seem to need anything special and only gets a little water from the lawn sprinkler. With some care, it could be spectacular. I certainly haven't done this rose any favors, even planting a mauve clematis with it. It looked purple in the photo! It's a quirky combo I've gotten used to.

Forgot to mention there is a new and improved version of Westerland, named Above All. I've had no experience with it, but here's what Northland Rosarium has to say about it.

Autumn Sunset is a more beautiful rose than Westerland. BUT...I have found that nurseries are selling it as a pale, washed out apricot colour. So it would pay to get it from a nursery that knows what the colour should be.

Autumn Sunset

Thank you all for such detailed information on this rose. It sounds like it’s not the rose for me. And thanks for the suggestions for alternatives.

Ben, that is a very pretty photo. I wouldn’t be happy with something that took that long to bloom or repeat and here in my 6a garden, I always get a lot of die back every winter, as Mad Gallica reports too.

Mad Gallica - Thanks for always adding your insights, from the colder zones. Have to have that dose of reality. :-)

Vaporvac - I looked up ‘Lady Ashe’. It’s on the Heirloom Roses site. Sounds very good. Has everything I’m looking for. I’m reminded that I have ‘Aloha’ and right now I have it in too much shade and it’s growing slowly and not blooming much. So I could move it to the bed I’m trying to plant in full sun and maybe that is a solution for me. But I’m thinking about Lady Ashe too.

Oldrosarian - Dixieland Linda is another very pretty rose, but I’m confused if this is the same as ‘Lady Ashe’. I think growing the ‘Aloha’ where I have it, I’m not getting the full benefit of it. Beautiful photos!

Moses - Great description of ‘Lady Ashe’ That must make you very happy to have that much success with a rose. And you are in a colder zone as well, and when you say no winter kill, do you mean it doesn’t die back at all?

Monarda - That is a pretty photo of ‘Autumn Sunset’.

Paul what part of the country are you, and what zone? Here in New England, we definitely qualify as a harsh winter climate. [g]. Very pretty photo. I’m convinced this is not the rose for me. I was looking for a red, very fragrant, healthy rose, that repeats, but I’ve about given up on that and now I’m just looking for healthy and very fragrant no matter the color. And of course, vigor is important too. Westerland doesn’t seem to be the rose for me here in NE.

Thanks for the link to 'Above All', FlowersAreMusic. That’s pretty too.

As is ‘Autumn Sunset’. I see it on the Heirloom Roses site and it reads more like a yellow, which I have a yellow I’m happy with. It does sound like something to consider at the point I’m looking for another yellow. It sounds quite healthy. I wish I had more space! [g]

Dixieland Linda is an alternate name for Lady Ashe. They are the same rose.Lady in Red is a very nice, fragrant repeat blooming red which should be hardy for your zone. I'm happy with Cl. Crimson Glory also.

I think of Westerland as more of a climber. I'm not sure that it would be suitable for a perennial bed, unless trained on a fence in the back. If you want fragrance and a red color you might consider a hybrid perpetual like Alfred Colomb, which Celeste Woodbury grows in her 4b New Hampshire garden and says is very fragrant. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.82250
She also grows the modern shrub rose, 'Star of the Republic', listed a 5b, a very fragrant, peachy-colored rose, according to the descriptions.

Bullet-proof, fragrant, everblooming, super hardy: ahh, this is the holy grail that breeders strive for, all too often in vain, since in the real world such qualities are not often found together on the same plant. Something has to give, and one usually needs to put up with imperfections of one kind or another.

I loved the pretty color variations that Westerland went thru in the Dallas area, the glossy foliage and esp. the fruity scent. However even in that relatively dry climate there was a lot of blackspot, and I didn't know that I needed to trellis it. In a border it sprawls all over.

Above All doesn't appeal to me. If I sprayed I think I would grow Autumn Sunset; the color is very appealing in all the photos I've seen.

Kordes' shrub rose Cubana is more satisfactory in bloom and foliage health but has no fragrance. It's more apricot than orange, so it's easier to blend with others. I have it with Perle d'Or and Peach Drift in my "apricot ghetto!"

Vaporvac - Thanks, Climbing Crimson Glory is still on my list and Lady Ashe too.

Monarda - I remember quite a few years back, I spent a lot of time on the forums, and looked at everything Celeste Woodbury posted, since she had such great success in a neighboring state. Lovely rose garden. Thanks for the reminder.

Yes, I realize I’m looking for something difficult to find. [g]. My problem has always been space. If I had more space, I could grow a number of roses and find satisfaction as a group, but I have very little sun, and I grow organically, so if I want to grow a rose, it has to earn it’s spot. I only have three right now, and they fit the bill and have been acceptable, but one is not in full sun and one has flowers that are not as large or as fragrant as I would like. I’m in the midst of a redo of my full sun bed and I’m making room for a couple more roses, so the search is on again.

I can certainly sympathize, Prairie Moon, as I have a postage stamp garden with a lot of shade myself, especially in autumn, since surrounded by buildings. I realize I am lucky to have a bit of land at all, here in the city, though, and I don't mind once bloomers or small flowers. One just has to experiment.

I'm in the suburbs, Monarda, but the lots in my neighborhood are about a 1/4 of an acre. And while buildings are not cutting down on the light, neighbors on 3 sides all have lots of trees, right up to the lot line. So in the autumn, I get a sudden drop in sun exposure as well. Especially on my vegetable garden in the back. I rarely grow a fall crop for that reason.

My full sun bed is in the front. I enjoy it. I try to make sure something is in bloom all the time. I like to change it up. Right now I only have Julia Child in that bed and it's just pushed out a new flush of blooms and is still adding color to the bed, which also has grasses, sedums, lilies in the summer, bulbs and perennials in the spring. I just added dwarf Hydrangea and a Hardy Hibiscus for next year, and I still have room for 2 more roses. I'm saving a place for them. [g]. I pulled out a ton of annuals a few weeks ago.

I have Aloha and New Dawn on a fence in the back, that is not in full sun and they are underperforming. It's also too dry for them there which doesn't help. I may move that Aloha to the front in the spring. And I have one Buck shrub rose, Prairie Sunrise, which is in it's 2nd year in my foundation bed in the front of the house and is doing great. It seems to be thriving on neglect. Big apricot blooms that are fragrant and clean foliage. It just pushed out a new flush of blooms now that the weather is cooler, too.

I've tried a number of roses in that front bed. I've had David Austin roses, which I've enjoyed, but they have not been as disease resistant as I like. And a few others. It's fun to keep trying a couple of new ones every couple of years. Even if they end up not exactly what I need, I still enjoy them until I don't. [g]. Julia Child is the only one that I've kept long term. It's probably 6 years that I've been growing her. A really good rose, but my biggest complaint is the blooms are a little on the small side. Which is fine if you have other roses.

Shade is great too. I love ferns and epimediums and hellebores and bleeding hearts in the spring. I have a lot of Lunaria that reseeds itself happily. And city gardens can be jewels. I love the coziness of them and their size can often allow for extra time to keep everything happy. Growing any roses in a city garden has to be uncommon. One of my kids lives in the city and she walks past some community gardens that she enjoys, but we rarely see private gardens with roses.

I love Julia Child and can only approve. Keeping them as long as one enjoys them is exactly my philosophy. I bet your garden is beautiful. I wish you would post some photos when you have a chance.
I was gardening for two friends in the country for over 20 years and giving them my discarded plants, i.e., those that got too big or were unsuitable for one reason or another. But I and my country friends have grown older, feebler, and less mobile, and some of them have moved -- or are moving or downsizing. So now I have to be more careful in what I purchase. I still have a "pot ghetto" of leftover orphan plants and am gradually making room for them to the best of my ability. I have also been keeping the more tender ones in pots and moving them over the winter to the unheated "vestibule" to the basement entrance under our front steps, and this has been working for me.

Prairie rose, is there any way to get more water to your New Dawn? She will bloom well in less than stellar conditions, but does need water to encourage new growth. I had Aloha in shade and she would give a few blooms here and there, but has thanked me with many buds for moving her pot to the sun. Blossomtime gave a surprising amount of bloom in partial shade as did Mme. Alfred Carriere, Sally Holmes, Cl. Clotilde Soupert, Darlow's Enigma, Felicia and Ballerina. Not all the Hybrid Musks tolerate shade to the same degree, I'm discovering! They will grow, but hardly bloom : ))

Monarda - I’m never caught up with the required work in the garden, so I’m rarely satisfied with my garden. My family roll their eyes, whenever they might say things are looking pretty good, my usual response is, ‘We’re getting there.’ LoL. I’m training myself to be happy with what there is to be happy about and ignore the rest, but can you really teach an old dog new tricks? ;-)

The garden has had some moments now and then and I’ll see if I can find a few photos to post. Few of which would show much of a rose display.

I have a pot ghetto still sitting in the backyard, waiting to get in the ground before it gets much later. I keep trying to move toward ‘low maintenance’ but - as many gardeners have told me along the way, I don’t think that exists.

You’re lucky you have a place to overwinter things. My basement is too warm, the garage is too cold and I don’t have a place in the house that is cool enough. I used to grow a lot in pots and would put out a dozen large pots and then try to overwinter tender annuals and that included some houseplants that would go out for the summer, then have to be dragged in the house each fall. I stopped doing that. I now have only two plants that go out and come in again. A tender Hibiscus that is happy in my DR window all winter and a rosemary. My few houseplants stay where they are all year.

Vaporvac - I irrigate a lot during the growing season. My problem is that the sunniest part of my backyard, is adjacent to a neighbor who has lined up multiple trees along the lot line. 7 Spruce, 1 mature Sycamore and a White Pine. Add to that two mature Maples on either end of the area and multiple mature Silver Maples in other yards, and our property is usually sucked dry by all those roots. [g]. But - I will make it a point to pay more attention to the New Dawn and see what happens. I have added rain barrels to have a more sustainable source for water, so that helps.

I am definitely going to move the Aloha in the spring. It has had very healthy foliage and the few blossoms it did produce were very pretty.

I may decide to try more roses in my part shade at some point. So far, I did try a couple. Madame Hardy I think was one. They didn’t really produce very much and struggled along and I ended up shovel pruning them. Thanks for the names of others to try.

I also see only what is wrong in my garden and am embarrassed when people praise it, especially the front garden, which I tend to neglect after the tulip show. But I have a friend who worked in a botanic garden and she recounted how the staff would work like blazes to get the garden ready to be open to the public. Most of the time it was, shall we say, not fit to be seen. Yea, verily even those great showpieces. It's rather like one's living room in that respect. Looks great when guests come and you have cleaned it up.

I have come to think of gardening as like a magic trick that relies on deception and sleight of hand. I do like to provide a big trick in spring by spending a lot (relatively) for tulips to start the season off with a bang for the neighbors. Then come the roses. I'm still trying to figure out what to do to make the rest of the year presentable. So far what I have come up with is a big show of lilies for July and then annuals -- many in containers, culinary herbs and tomatoes, ditto.

Monarda - I had a post ready to go and when I hit the submit button, it disappeared. I included photos, I don't know why that would have been a problem though.

Anyway - Tulips in the spring are great, I found mine would disappear after all the work and expense to put them in, so how do you do it? :-). Would love to see your spring tulip display. I stick with daffodils that keep coming back.

Lilies and roses together in the front - such a treat for your neighbors - all that fragrance to walk past! Would love to see how you paired them together.

To me the magic to presenting a garden at it's best, is in taking photos and being able to edit out the areas that are not presentable. [g]. I can't remember a time, when every area of our property was presentable all at the same time.

I so agree with both of you, monarda and prairiemoon. Make sure the front garden looks good in spring, and know how to edit your photos. Those are great rules to follow. Diane

I meant to add, prairie, that text and photos together in one post have become a problem for me lately (I mean a problem for Houzz). Try posting text and photos separately. The poor Houzz dears can't handle too much at once. Diane

Oh, they do seem to have a lot of negative changes since the last time I was here. I remember the old Gardenweb, where you could post as much text and photos as you wanted in one post. Well, I'll try that. Thanks.

In the post I lost, I was saying that I also put roses and lilies together. Well, one variety of lily - Orania. It also bloomed in July and was very fragrant. In my front bed, I have tried to keep it neat, by edging at the street and along the lawn side, with low perennials, sedums and chrysanthemums and grasses for the fall and the lilies and roses are in the middle and along our front walkway.

I’ve found the one lily variety boring at this point, so I just ordered more bulbs from the Lily Garden in darker colors to liven it up. And I have a 'Casa Blanca' in the back that I'm moving to the front this spring.

The roses I’ve tried in the front - two Austin Roses - ‘Golden Celebration’ that lasted me 3 or 4 years. But by mid summer it would start to have problems with the foliage and I would cut it back to within an inch of it’s life and let it fill in with new foliage by the end of the season. I’m sure that was a horrible practice for it and eventually, I had to remove it all together.

I also had a pink one - ‘Brother Cadfael’ which I shovel pruned in 2014. Then I swore off the Austin roses. I tried The Fairy, but - the blooms are too small and no fragrance. I just removed that last season. I had another violet colored rose, that I don’t remember the name of. I think I just picked it up at a local nursery in the spring - that and white Meidland. Lots of flowers, but foliage problems. Julia Child and Prairie Sunrise are the only two I still have.

In the back, in part shade, I tried ‘Marie Pavie’ and ‘Madame Plantier’ that I ordered bare root from Pickering. Disappointing in part shade. I had a Penelope Rose climbing on a fence that I just didn’t like. It was healthy but the blossoms were too small and pale. New Dawn filled up that fence when Penelope was gone, and is still there with Aloha. And that’s my entire rose history in my 100% organic no spray garden. I didn't try roses for a long time because I thought growing them organically wasn't going to work.

My front bed....Orania Lily - with Heliopsis, Echinacea and some Monarda in there somewhere.

Casa Blanca

The edging in Autumn...

'Golden Celebration'

Julia Child with an unknown bluish, violet rose in the background...

It had a lot of flowers, but, it didn't stay healthy....

In the back.... Aloha with 'Blue Boy' Clematis

I think this was 'Madame Plantier'. Loved the button center and quality of the blooms, not as fragrant as I was hoping and insects ate it to death. I think they were thrips.

Lots of stunning stuff, prairiemoon. Your lilies are so gorgeous, as well as the roses. Is that a sedum in third photo? I love it. Was black spot the problem with Golden Celebration? It's one of my top four Austin's here, but we don't have black spot. GC is humongous and a continuous bloomer, for the most part, as is Julia C, another favorite. I'm shoveling my elderly Brother Cadfael this spring. All it wants to do is grow huge, and not bloom once spring is over. It will be starting its 15th year soon and is all bloomed out, I guess. I feel really bad about it. Oh-I love what I can see of your unknown bluish violet rose. Diane

Thanks Nan, I have plenty of stuff that is far from stunning, but I don't have the tendency to take photos of them. lol. I should take more photos when things go wrong at least. I know the foliage on the GC became unhealthy. Whether it was blackspot I don't know. I looked for a photo, but all I could find was a pink rose looking pretty pathetic. Not a very good photo but you can see what a mess the foliage was....

And actually, we've had Red Lily Leaf Beetle here in New England that were so bad on the lilies that I had to handpick, and couldn't even keep up with them. The foliage was full of holes, but for some reason, all of a sudden in the past two years, I have stopped seeing them in my garden. I don't know if I just picked them all off and the population declined or what. I almost stopped growing lilies all together.

Yes, that's Sedum 'Autumn Joy' with Pennisetum 'Hamelin'.

And I have what seem to be two different purplish roses, closer up. I think the one you see behind the Julia Child is the first and second one. Very small flowers.

The other is this...and I don't know the name of either.....

Those are just beautiful. I love the purple roses. And the Orania lily is to die for!

I seem to have a lot of orange and yellow, in part because the old roses are so overwhelmingly pink in June (in the back yard).

Water lilies. The compost heap is in the back and I let corydalis seed about the tank in an attempt to keep the water cool.

Monarda - That is a great tulip display. I especially like what looks like a single along the back edge that is a red and yellow cup. And what are those tiny daffodils mixed in there? They look like the bloom is a perfect form but dwarfed from the normal size. So sweet. Is that Lunaria that is the purple in the upper left corner? And do I see some Iris foliage in there? How does all that work out when the foliage is dying?

Tulips have gotten prettier and prettier I think. I was looking at some in the catalog this year and I almost ordered some.

I just looked up that Asiatic Lily ‘Graffiti’ - what a splash of color that is! And the flowers look really large. Very eye catching!

Wow! I just love that tank of water lilies. That had to be quite a project! What kind of a tank is it? At first I thought it was an old bathtub that you painted black, but on second look, I don’t think so. And big buds on the water lilies, amazing.

Where are you located, Monarda? Just curious what your climate is. You did say you had a larger property and friends with large gardens too, yes? You did a great job making the transition to a smaller property. I really like all the decisions you’ve made. Do you feel like it’s now just enough to take care of?

To answer your questions -- I am in Brooklyn, NY., near Bay Ridge, zone 7a, they say, but not really. One year I lost about 10 roses from an April snowstorm, it was very discouraging, but these things happen. Since I have had back problems and also trouble with the heat and humidity, I have a lot less stamina. This year the weeds are terrible. Also since mine is an old garden, even though tiny, I spend a lot of time cutting stuff back and weeding, filling bags of stuff. Sometimes I don't even want to go out there because I know I'll be out there for hours and hours.

I planted my cousin's garden (the property belonged to my late uncle) on eastern Long Island from scratch, including white pine trees, native azaleas, Virginia magnolias, and the rugosa rose Polareis (a once bloomer), which turned into a magnificent tree. The deer are a scourge there, They got worse with every year. I had to wrap everything in chicken wire. I also helped our old friends on the eastern shore of Maryland. Both it and the Long Island house are summer houses.

***
My favorite tulips are Princess Irene (it doesn't return, it's like a cut flower), and the green tulips, particularly 'Formosa' (which I forgot to order for last year's display). I have also come to love 'Gavota' -- that weird purple and yellow. I think the red and yellow tulip you noticed is Tulipa chrysantha 'Tubingen's Gem'. The species are the most beautiful, bar none, IMO. One year I thought T. sylvestris was the most beautiful I had ever seen, and now I really like 'Honky Tonk' -- really, you could almost get rid of everything and just have that! The narcissus is 'Hawera', which is very persistent, and yes, that is Lunaria. The irises are weed-like diploid passalong types that withstand light shade: Germanica from a Bay Ridge front yard and a blue passalong diploid from a gas station in New Hampshire. The leaves flop but are not too bad.

The lily tank is a stock tank which we ordered from Amazon. My husband loves waterlilies so I decided to humor him. Actually they are a lot less work and give more pleasure than I expected -- pleasure that is basically surprise that we have them at all! The lilies are 'Colorado'. I have two little solar pumps as aerators.

I'll see if I can download some pics of Westerland for you...

Here it is as a new baby..with Japanese Anemone ..so this is late summer.

This is the second year..

This is the 3rd year..and unfortunately I didn't take photos 2 weeks later when you couldn't see any leaves it was so covered with blooms. It is recovering now and I expect it to continue blooming thru the summer.

Will be interesting to see if it gets lazy after a few years and quits it's prolific blooming.

I live in Willamette Valley in Oregon. Crap red clay soil with very hi PH. I amend a little. Zone 7. I am a lazy waterer too. I don't spray unless it gets really bad. No issues with black spot or anything..and this spring it rained and rained and rained. Lots of black spot on my other roses but now that we have some sun and warmth they are recovering.

OK..just checked my Westerland out closely..it does have some black spot..just a little,

Beautiful! I love the year by year photo showing it growth.

Westerland can have some different shades:

Autumn Sunset

Exactly..mine are the pale color now..3 days of close to 100 has slowed it down.

A rosarian friend near San Marcos had trouble getting her Westerland to flower.(she had about 300 at one point..water is too costly now.she has taken most out).

So I am pleased at how floriferous mine is. Maybe it doesn't like a lot of heat?

Any 1 here growing lunar mist?

Nice erasmus..nice..I was considering Autumn Sunset for that spot..I've also put in Soul Sister and Pinata in the patio area....jury is out on Pinata. It's only 1 year old. Doing so so.

oldrosarian 3 years ago

Autumn Sunset is a more beautiful rose than Westerland. BUT...I have found that nurseries are selling it as a pale, washed out apricot colour. So it would pay to get it from a nursery that knows what the colour should be.

I do know that oldrosarian is no longer with us. Does anyone know what she meant by this? I don’t see that anyone asked at the time.

Interesting point..so far the pale color on my Westerland occurs at the very end of the roses life..up until that time they are the brighter orange.

Guess I better have my husband keep building small pergolas and archways...is there such a thing as too many climbing roses?

I checked a few places and don't hear it described as a pale washed out color anywhere.

Vapor, I had Lunar Mist in Alaska and thought it was wonderful. I got it from Northland Rosarium but have not seen it for sale recently.

Thank you sheila. I would love to grow autumn sunset with lunar mist. I have autumn sunset already and love it! To answer your question Deborah , no, we cannot ever have too many climbers! ...says 65 plus And counting!

Here is a picture of a recent Autumn Sunset bloom. I like how a single spray makes a bouquet.

I love Autumn Sunset. Planted it for a friend along a 6 foot wooden fence together with red American honeysuckle and blue American wisteria (the non spreading kind). It was a beautiful picture for a long time in summer. Autumn Sunset has subtle red highlights that went very well with the honeysuckle. It is a gawky thorny plant, but didn't require much maintenance or pruning. I'm sorry I don't have a picture.

Ok..as the summer has progressed...Westerland is approaching 6ft and only a few blossoms at the top. And since it has been hot ..they are mostly bleached out. I can live with the huge first display alone!

I'm tearing up some of the patio so I can put a smaller rose in front of Westerland's LEGS!! (yep she is leggy) Any suggestions as to a very floriferous rose in orange shades to match Westerland? I'm thinking landscape or floribunda??

I'm looking at Heirloom(check out Rogue Valley too)..Hot Cocoa(maybe better with Cinco de Mayo or Distant Drums?) And Orange Waves? Open to suggestions! Gotta cover her legs!!

Ok so maybe it is an excuse to buy another rose too!

@Deborah lippitt, where do you live. Ive seen HC thriving in WV, but CdM is a BS mess here. I wish my Brazos Belle werent riddled with midge. That might look good, but is very thorny with tiny thorns. Star of the Republic is VERY upright here. I might look at something like Bliss or a polyantha....maybe even Fire Opal. Great foliage and bloom on that one!

Maybe Livin Easy.

Checked out Livin Easy..sounds perfect!(how did I miss this??)

I alas have ordered Adobe Sunrise..but if that doesn't perform I can always move it and plant Livin Easy..!8 ac gives me plenty of room!

I have quite a few roses that aren't looking very good right now...blackspot, lost leaves, but most of the leaves on Westerland are looking good.

Rifis, if you notice in my pics of Autumn Sunset one of the pics is a pale apricot. Maybe nurseries have noticed this color variation as well. If they're selling A. S. as a pale apricot maybe they think people would like that better than the strong, school bus yellow it often is. I have no idea what oldrosarian meant, seeming to say that A.S. should always be a strong yellow when it isn't always strong yellow. But it more often is strong yellow so if you just put up one pic of it it would be more accurate to have one of strong yellow.

I have wondered myself about breeding and cloning of roses and plants and how precise and accurate they are. ..I've gotten some that I wondered about.. a Mr. Lincoln that had more pink in it than I was used to seeing. Some others things too.

I'm 71 so have see a few roses in my time. My dad was into roses and we always had a Mr. Lincoln. Kinda like what happened with the corn blight..have to go back to the origins.