Brett Kavanaugh

eld6161

I am a supporter of the Me Too Movement. However, there is something that disturbs me about this 35 year allegation that happened between teenagers.

An incident that happened in high school can now derail a career.

Whether you are for or against this man, is anyone else here feeling uncomfortable about what is going on here?

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Alisande

Maybe if more women come forth, one at a time, the decision on Kavanaugh can be delayed until Trump is out of office. I'm not serious, of course, but after what the good ole' boys did to Obama and Garland, it sure is a pleasant thought.

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chisue

Sen. Collins seems to talk about 'women's rights' right up to where she folds and votes the Republican party line. Have I missed something?

There is no need to rush any confirmation of a Supreme Court justice. None.


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eld6161

So many twists and turns.


What I find interesting too is the "6 degrees of separation" that has occurred.


What are the chances that Kavanaugh's mom was the judge who ruled on the foreclosure case of Dr. Ford's parents?


Alisande, do you think that there is anyone who will step forward at this time? They certainly had plenty of time to do it. And, it doesn't have to be women. This is assuming he "assaulted" others.

But what about all the people at the party? Is there not one other teen, male or female that might have heard/seen something?

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nicole___

If there was a crime....why bring it up now? Why not do something about it right after the "crime" happened. People do change. They move on. They have regrets. Young people mature and grow up. Life experiences can lead to positive change.

I liken this to Julie Chen's DH. Les Moonves. He's not a teen any more. Now as an adult, he's a husband, a father and has a career.

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Chi

Sexual assault isn't a mistake though. It's not cheating on a test, or staying out past curfew, or any number of mistakes that young people learn from. There is something fundamentally wrong with someone's character if they sexually assault someone, and being drunk is not an excuse.

This is for a seat on the supreme court. Political affiliations are one thing. Lying under oath, sexual assault....these are very different. These justices are going to make decisions that will shape the country for decades to come. Their character is VERY important. And even if this whole thing is a lie, it needs to be thoroughly investigated just in case! Because we need to be absolutely sure of the types of people we put on the supreme court, the types of people who are making the decisions that can and will impact millions of people. It's important enough to be very cautious, and that applies to all nominees.

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maddielee

About the foreclosure case...


"Martha Kavanaugh did preside for certain parts of a 1996 foreclosure case involving Ralph and Paula Blasey, who are indeed Christine Blasey Ford’s parents. However, Kavanaugh actually ruled favorably toward the Blaseys, who ended up keeping their home. These two facts cause the logic of the conspiracy theory, such as it ever was, to collapse."


nicole, are you saying that a woman or child who is assaulted has to report the act immediately for it to be true?

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lily316

A classmate of Ford, a year behind wrote on Twitter she knew about the assault as many in the school did. She wiped her info after posting it because all the media is after her for interviews. Ford has death threats against her and had to relocate. Logically(which most GOP senators don't possess) why WOULD someone bring this on to themselves...death threats, filthy things written to them by the wingnuts out there. Who would do that unless it happened and everyone knows it did. Judge was a stumbling drunk as was Kavanagh. Unreliable witness.

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Chi

It's so interesting to me how people are split along political lines when it comes to something like sexual assault. I know many of the KT member's political affiliations and I'm seeing a stark trend with posters and people "liking" their comments. Generally speaking, those who support Kavanaugh are, unsurprisingly, Republicans and those who support the accuser are Democrats.

I wonder if Hillary had been elected and her nominee had sexual assault allegations, if the pro-Kavanaugh supporters would still be supportive of that nominee in regards to alleged assault? I'm guessing not.

This is a fundamental problem with our government where morality is influenced by political affiliation. It's beyond sad, and I predict it will be the downfall of the US. It's already happening.

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nicole___

I bring up Les...because I don't know his political affiliation. I feel he and his family should be left alone as well. I don't need to know what he was like 30 years ago.


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Lucille

If there was a crime....why bring it up now? Why not do something about it right after the "crime" happened

Because of the disbelief and difficulty of proof, many women (and males, think of those raped little boys in the Catholic Church) will not report sexual assaults. Especially children and younger people may keep quiet about the assault for many years.

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Lucille

It's so interesting to me how people are split along political lines when it comes to something like sexual assault.

I think that trivializes those of us and I'm sure there are many, who do not reference politics for such decisions.

he wouldn't have been my pick, but this is just another dirty trick by the left.

it's never ending with them.

Another earlier comment that tries to force this assault into the political arena thus trivializing peoples honest thoughts here about the matter. We have GOT to be able to talk to each other and value each other as people here in the KT. Not puppets of a political group.

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wildchild2x2

A classmate of Ford, a year behind wrote on Twitter she knew about the assault as many in the school did.

I saw that letter and her backing away statement too.

Interesting. Kavanaugh went to an all boys school. Christine Blasey Ford went to an all girls school.

Ms. Ford asserts she told no one until 2 decades later when she and her DH went int therapy. So just how this this become talked about by everyone at the girl's school? Curiouser and curiouser. Deeper into the rabbit hole.

Then there is this:

Hi all, deleted this because it served its purpose and I am now dealing with a slew of requests for interviews from The Wash Post, CNN, CBS News. Organizing how I want to proceed. Was not ready for that, not sure I am interested in pursuing. Thanks for reading

— Cristina King Miranda (@reinabori) September 19, 2018

Yep. "served it's purpose" indeed.

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Lucille

Ms. Ford asserts she told no one until 2 decades later when she and her DH went int therapy. So just how this this become talked about by everyone at the girl's school?

If HE talked to his friends, they may have talked to others at the girls' school and may have travelled throughout the school that way.

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wildchild2x2

If HE talked to his friends, they may have talked to others at the girls' school and may have travelled throughout the school that way.

If this were the case and it became school gossip there would be people coming out from all over to support Ms. Ford in her allegations. Or vice versa.

You don't find it odd that she had no BFF to confide in. That she apparently went to this "party" alone and left alone.

Sorry but this is appearing more and more to be one of two possibilities. False memory through quack therapy or she is a liar for political reasons.

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Lucille

As I mentioned previously, sometimes people will not talk to anyone about an assault for years.

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wildchild2x2

So she didn't talk about but went to an all girls school where it was being talked about according to the viral post that served it's purpose and she simply brushed it away as gossip? Somehow not one of her friends mentioned the gossip about her to her? Seriously? That is not how things go in high school.

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Elmer J Fudd

(Edit)

phoggie appears to have deleted a comment in which she said the conduct of the accuser was causing a witch hunt. This comment of mine was in response to that. It makes no sense now without that explanation.

My original post follows:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

phoggie, turn the clock ahead 30 years (or however many, it doesn't matter) and the accuser speaking up for the first time who you're listening to is your granddaughter. Or your daughter. Do you feel differently about it?

I'll assume you do. Remember this woman has parents and grandparents. Now you know how they and many others feel. It's the allegation (and the denial) that matter in human terms, not the politics.

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wildchild2x2

Aye a witch hunt! Jus' a pack 'o scurvy dogs aiming to scuttle the process. Hanging from the yardarm mayhap loosen their lying tongues.

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Chi

Lucille, I was generalizing. I do believe there are people who are able to see beyond politics, but my own personal experiences with others reveal a lot of bias when discussing issues such as this one.

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phoggie

The reason I pulled my post was I decided not to lower myself into this mud pit! None of you or I were at that party, so it is just a she said/he denied story until the investigation hearing....if she decides to participate. I was only relaying what CNN had said that her "witness " say they have no recollection of the incident.

And Elmer...please remember that she might have parents, but he has a precious family also!

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maifleur01

I was assaulted in my mid twenties and never told anyone about it until I was in my 60's. I only did then to protect the woman that he was arguing with in the parking lot.. My cubemate was her ex. It took a lot for me to tell him. The man in the parking lot appeared all his life to be a nice guy. I do not know what he did to her or what her ex told her but the next time we saw each other the hug was never ending. If I could not talk about what happened to me until there was something that could possibly hurt another other women can and do the same thing.

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Elmer J Fudd

Yes, she apparently does have two sons and a husband. What a wonderful and brave example she is setting for them.

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nicole___

This is a headline:

There are key differences between the possible Brett Kavanaugh showdown with accuser Christine Blasey Ford and the Anita Hill-Clarence Thomas saga


Link to the article



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phoggie

Or....what a fool she will look like if she is lying ..,could go either way,

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Elmer J Fudd

I'm certain you're a level headed person. I can't believe you mean this last comment seriously, I think you know better.

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maifleur01

Comments like the one Elmer just commented on are the real reason most women do not come forward when things happen to them. A real rethink needs to happen if that is how some people feel because someone they know has had it happen to them. They will never find out so that they could provide support to that person rather second hand they are bashing that person.

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Annie Deighnaugh

What I don't get is the right's utter devotion to this guy. I mean, he is well out of the mainstream on his thinking about the president being immune from any investigation at all until he's out of office, there is evidence that he committed perjury and made use of stolen documents, there are unanswered questions about his finances, he was involved in the policy on torture under the bush administration, and now there are these allegations about his character. It's not like there isn't a whole list of others who would pass muster more easily and still pursue the conservative agenda...in some cases even more conservative than kavanaugh. mcconnell even warned the WH against him because he knew there'd be difficulty getting him to pass....kavanuagh's last confirmation took 3 years and he only barely made it.

Yet the gop is willing to rush through the confirmation process, deny an FBI investigation into the matter which has been standard procedure in these cases, refuse to allow any other witnesses to be heard in this matter, put the lawyer for bannon, priebus and mcgahn in charge of deciding which of kavanaugh's documents are to be made available to the committee, release tens of thousands of documents of his with no time for anyone to review, while keeping tens of thousands of others under wraps, and this for a candidate that has as much approval rating from the American people as did Harriet Miers.

Just because trump nominated him. Let's face facts. trump has had at best a spotty record on who he hires (manafort, flynn, cohen, pruitt, etc.) trump also said he'd nominate only judges from the federalist society list and no others, but kavanaugh wasn't on the original list but added later. The gop should save themselves, listen to the American people and tell trump to pick someone else.

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Lucille

The reason I pulled my post was I decided not to lower myself into this mud pit!

I think much of this conversation has been very thoughtful. Equally important are the responses to the thoughtless comments that are meant to generate heat more than light.

This is no mud pit, many of us here have been assaulted at some point during our lives, some people never talk about such incidents and remain injured for life. If you or a friend/family member have been sexually assaulted, healing is needed, but that can't happen if the environment makes one afraid to talk.


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eld6161

FBI investigation into the matter which has been standard procedure in these cases,

Annie,can you give other examples of this. I keep hearing that it is not the procedure in this case.

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maddielee

"Annie,can you give other examples of this. I keep hearing that it is not the procedure in this case."

I'm not Annie but the first to come to mind is Anita Hill.

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socks

I hope he isn’t voted in to the SC but predict he will be. The other members must be watching all this with avid interest, and I wonder how they feel about him, but we’ll never know.

Most not all young men go through high school without getting drunk or committing sexual assault. I also have concerns about gambling suspicions and his belief that the president should be held above the law. These issues speak to his morality.

Since Ford started all this, she should have the courage to testify.

What a mess, wasted time.

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Annie Deighnaugh

From GWU Law: See #3. The investigation and background checks are done first, then the hearing can proceed to question the candidate on the findings.

Another example was during the Rehnquist nomination hearings:

The files also show that Republican Sen. Strom Thurmond, the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, requested the FBI to question witnesses who might testify about allegations that Rehnquist had “challenged” African-Americans waiting in line to vote in Phoenix in 1962. At the time, Rehnquist was an advisor to the local Republican Party.

ETA: Thanks, maddielee for the Anita Hill example.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Also, the irony (or is it karma) is too tempting not to note.

When Senator Hirono questioned Kavanaugh about sexual misconduct, she noted that he was a former law clerk and longtime friend of the retired judge Alex Kozinski, formerly of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Last year, Kozinski resigned amid multiple allegations of sexual misconduct, before a federal judicial council could investigate the allegations. (Kavanaugh said that he had no knowledge of Kozinski’s inappropriate behavior before it became public.) If any sexual-misconduct allegations against Kavanaugh from the time since he became a judge were to surface, he too, could be investigated by a judicial council. The person who would have to call for such an investigation would be the chief judge of the District of Columbia Circuit, Merrick Garland. Source: NYer

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Alisande

Annie, that certainly is ironic.


This short video is moving, and IMO says a lot about Kavanaugh. I'm beginning to dislike his face.



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eld6161

Annie, to be clear. You are saying that under the GWU law a citizen has the right to an FBI investigation?

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Annie Deighnaugh

I don't know what you're talking about eld6161.

If you looked at the site, it was from George Washington University (GWU) Law school that was a description of the usual confirmation process the senate goes through for a nomination. It includes an FBI background check before the hearing so that the Senators can further question the witness(es) as to the findings of facts which may affect their decision about the qualifications of the nominee.

I'm not sure how you get from that to citizen's rights.

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CindyMac

Alisande, how revealing that Kavanaugh knew who he was in advance. Hadn't heard that before.

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Elmer J Fudd

Annie, that link goes to a Georgetown Law web page. Georgetown and GW are two different schools, both in Washington DC.


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Elmer J Fudd

There's nothing more horrendous or tragic to imagine than the shooting deaths of innocent people. Plus a shooting at a school. Plus parents having to deal with the death of their children, maybe the worst aspect about this of all. I can't imagine how hard this is.

Mr Guttenberg has the right to speak up civilly for gun control or school protection or whatever else he feels needs to be done. He shouldn't expect that anywhere, at any time, any person of HIS choosing will welcome the contact. Kavanaugh was appearing before the US Senate for the highest job any American jurist could aspire to. That he turned and walked away from Guttenberg, who's essentially a protester, should not be viewed by anyone as offensive. What was offensive was Guttenberg accosting him and Guttenberg's pretention to expect to have a conversation. It was the wrong thing to do in the wrong place.

By whatever means he finds comfortable, Mr. Guttenberg needs to deal with his extreme grief and get on with his life. He shouldn't expect every person or, indeed, any prominent person he encounters to be ready to join or hear about "his cause" just because he wants them to.

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mayflowers

A bigger man would have shook his hand and said "I'm sorry for your loss." That at least acknowledges him instead of ignoring him.

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maddielee

Elmer. When an organization (NRA) pledges over a million dollars for advertising it's support of a SC candidate, the game changes.

Why didn't Kavanaugh shake his hand? Because of the NRA support? MR. Gutenberg was introduced to the group earlier, he was not a threat.

Eta: Questions. Added to the list of things that need to be answered before a vote to confirm.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Thanks for the correction elmer...my bad.

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Elmer J Fudd

maddielee, I don't assume guilt by association.

Kavanaugh was nominated by a Republican who was elected president. Presidents nominate those who, more often than not, follow their own views of the world, it's a power that comes with the office. The NRA supports many (but not exclusively) Republican politicians and their entourages. It's not an organization I like. I regret the rigid policies of the NRA, what they have done to our country, and I detest the words they whisper in the ears of the pols they give money to, but that's how the system works. Remember that the next time you vote.

Kavanaugh had other things on his mind and had no obligation to pause for someone at a time and place that fit THEIR convenience and not his. He himself is not an elected politician, he doesn't need to act as if he were everybody's friend.

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Elmer J Fudd

annie, no worries.

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phoggie

Quote

....."If Kavanaugh's name had been Kennedy, he could have gotten drunk, killed the young woman and left her under a bridge, we could all let this pass."

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Elmer J Fudd

Or maybe even Clinton too!


Hey, we agree phoggie!

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desertsteph

he wouldn't have been my choice, but he did go thru a FBI investigation - and nothing such as this party thing was uncovered.

from what I hear / read, the guy that the woman says was also there, says he wasn't and remembers no such party. Her 'witnesses' have faded. and so has her story. if she wasn't going to come forward, she shouldn't have sent the letter - the one the dems sat on until the last minute. anything to hinder this appointment. that's what dems do - and sling unfounded mud.

and Feinstein seems to have lots of memory problems lately. I think at 85 it is time for her to retire. or maybe she is just using this memory thing at this time. but, those who have had conversations with her in recent times have recounted numerous times this has happened.



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maifleur01

I do not think the party thing was not uncovered. It an probably other similar things are in the various reports that the committee received. There was little surprise about his gambling and it was tried to be explained as favors for friends. Now it is known that he paid bills and purchased property with questionable money. He could of course have won a couple of million by gambling it has happened. There are ways that he would not have had to declare that money on his taxes legally. But if he obtained it in any legal manner or merely lied on his taxes by not reporting his gambling income the committee should have that information and is fine with it or they would be asking him to explain the source of that income. There are other ways that some Judges have earned unreported large incomes in the past.

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maifleur01

I do not know what I just wrote that immediately cause it to go into limbo but the committee knows he has done things that he should not have. They are accepting him even though there are few ways to explain his extra money that he used for purchases.

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Elmer J Fudd

The guy who says he "doesn't remember" apparently had a major addiction problem for years (including in high school) and his memory is lacking for long stretches of time during his own life. Said another way, not a credible bystander in any event.

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wildchild2x2

According to news briefs I've seen the Republicans, including the fence sitters are coming together. Either she shows up or the vote goes forward. No more delays. If she does show up I think not much will change. After all this is a Professor who can't remember the year although she says she was 15. Math? She can't remember the time of year although she says she was wearing a swimsuit beneath her clothing. Zero powers of deduction? Credible witness indeed. Sounds maybe she was the one with the major addiction problem.

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Chi

Or maybe she thinks it's better to say she can't remember than to lie if she doesn't remember exactly when it happened? Aside from people born on Jan. 1st, everyone is 15 for two different years. Swimsuits can be worn at any time between spring and fall.

I was sexually assaulted and I don't remember the month or year. I remember my age, and I remember the incident. And that's it. And I wasn't an addict. I like to think I'm good at math and have powers of deduction, but trauma is a complicated thing. It really bothers me when people who have not been assaulted try to dictate what the proper response should be. And because we don't have video evidence and eye witnesses and can't remember every detail, then it's obviously a lie. Don't worry, the courts thought I was lying too so nothing happened to him. He has since assaulted two other girls that I know about, who were also called liars. We were all under 18. It's a sad world.

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wildchild2x2

Latest update is she is now saying she will now testify but with new conditions. The latest are that she only be questioned by 2 Senators, no lawyers present for Kavanaugh. That she be questioned in a private room after he is questioned first so he won't know what she said.

The woman is delusional. She actually believes it is in her power to redefine the justice system we have in place for the accused. She brought the charges she needs to state them so he can defend himself. Court of law or no court of law. She doesn't get to make up the rules for her own private kangaroo court against him.

At this point I will believe not one thing that comes out of this demented psychopath's mouth. What little credibility she may have had is gone. That train left the station.

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lily316

Kavanaugh has more baggage than this attempted rape charge. In the end, they'll probably cave and make him withdraw. I hope the DEMs pound hard. We were screwed when Merrick Garland, who had a pristine character, and was greatly admired wasn't allowed to be nominated since it was Obama's last year. So for over a year, we had NO ninth member of the SC. What's your rush, repugs?

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eld6161

Where is the protocol?

I believe it happened without a doubt.

But, what can come out of a trial with so many gaps?

The one that she should have been able verify is where the party was. Could she not get in touch with anyone from her class that went to the party? I can see a scenario where groups of kids wind up at a party hosted by a friend of a friend of a friend. So, I can see how she might not have known the host of the party. But, at fifteen, I can't imagine her not having a close friend and either telling that friend that she was heading to a party or going with her. Interesting that she went alone.

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graywings123

She actually believes it is in her power to redefine the justice system we have in place for the accused.


All that is occurring now with the new conditions is why the Committee should have asked the White House to have the FBI investigate this. THAT is the system we have in place for the accused.

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Annie Deighnaugh

It's the wh's refusal to ask the fbi to investigate that is the real issue here. What are they hiding?

All of kavanaugh's papers that they are refusing to release now will be made available to the public in 2019 and 2020 anyway. Does kavanaugh and the gop really want whatever is there to come out then vs. now?

Some people do what is right just because it is right, regardless of outcome. But for others, it's win at all costs, regardless of the rightness or wrongness of the process.

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Lucille

I am disgusted with Trump. As has been mentioned several times, for many reasons including the disbelief often shown to such reports, difficulties with proof, shame, shock, MANY women are silent after an assault. Here, the NYT headline:

President Trump challenged Judge Brett Kavanaugh’s accuser, saying if a sexual assault "was as bad as she says," charges would have been filed.

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bob_cville

Well he would probably know better than most. Since he has been accused of assaulting many, many women, he probably has a well honed sliding scale where an assault this bad, usually goes away with no problem, and an assault this bad requires a hefty payoff to avoid charges, and an assault this bad requires credible deaths threats against the accuser or her family to quash. Maybe its based on his vast experience with the subject matter for his belief that the assault would fall into the middle category.

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Alisande

Lucille, I'm always disgusted with Trump. In fact, a statement from this thread, which presumably was not supposed to be about him, jumped right out at me:


At this point I will believe not one thing that comes out of this demented psychopath's mouth.

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Elmer J Fudd

For those of all political views, there's an interesting op/ed in the Washington Post written by a young law professor. The headline and sub-headline say it all:

"Kavanaugh’s Senate hearing isn’t a trial. The standard isn’t ‘reasonable doubt.’

The confirmation process, including sexual assault allegations, is a job interview."


For those who haven't done job interviews, what this is saying is "Ask your questions, listen to the answers, form your own conclusions and then decide what to do".

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Late to this, but I'll add that IMO, the most important thing is not that this is from so many years ago, but whether he is lying about it now - under oath.

And we shouldn't overlook that there is evidence showing he has lied about other things in his past - under oath.

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maifleur01

Although I expect the committee to send to the floor will the committee provide to the floor all of the documents including the various investigations of him? Previous times the committee's were the only ones to see the information. In job interviews if a candidate is selected and then it is found that important things were later found the person will be removed from that job. With a Supreme Court Justice there may be an option to remove but without one which has seldom been talked about there is no method.

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desertsteph

She doesn't get to make up the rules for her own private kangaroo court against him.

… What little credibility she may have had is gone. That train left the station.


I agree, but she (they) sure are trying. She (they) are pulling strings.

She should at least remember where the party was. How did she get to it? if that happened to me at some party, I'm sure where it happened would be cemented into my brain forever - or at least until dementia set in.

I remember the Thomas/Hill hearings. that didn't work for them and I hope this one doesn't either. tho, as I already posted, he wouldn't have been my pick of those that were up for nomination. As President, it was Trump's choice.

the left loves to sling the sexual slander, unless it's one of theirs - Kennedy, Clinton and even now Ellison.

And, the FBI has already investigated him, as is normal for a nominee.


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Elmer J Fudd

Patti Davis, Ronald Reagan's daughter, said today :

"I was sexually assaulted. Here’s why I don’t remember many of the details."

Davis article

You dogma singers can verbally attack her too.

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eld6161

Elmer, it is commendable that Patti Davis has now shared her story.

And I understand the parallels. However, Patti's story differs significantly in that there was no one else in the office.

In Dr. Ford's case, she was at a party. There has to be someone out there who can step forward.

I have not personally gone through this trauma, and I am learning from the victims perspective.

So, yes I can understand forgetting many of the key events. But, like I mentioned in an earlier post, it is hard to understand a fifteen year old going to a party of a person she might not have known and all by herself. She doesn't remember getting there. How did she usually get places? I also find it hard to believe that not one friend of hers knew she was going to this party and that she did not go with a friend.

I do believe something happened. But, unfortunately there are too many gaps in the story.

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wildchild2x2

The only people who made this political are The "lady" her lawyer and Diane Feinstein (some of whose policies over the years I have supported and some I didn't). I would say the very same things about anyone who played this the way the supposed victim played it. I don't care who you are, what your politics are or what your motive is. You don't get to come out 35 years later and say something bad happened to you but you don't know when, where, how or why. You don't get to ruin someone's life over a poor choice you may have made in the past.

Bad things (not always sexual) occur to all of us if we live a full life long enough. The rules haven't changed much despite what some people who believe in unicorns poopng rainbows want. You can change laws, you can try to change the meaning of words all you want. What you can't change is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. You can deny it but it's there. No matter how hard one pretends it's not. Unless you are a sociopath it's the where you admit to it or not.

Now those of us who are skeptical of this gal are being accused of being against her for political reasons. Wrong. That is definitely some of you projecting. They (the above) made it political. The elephant is in the room and can't be ignored. Those of us who think this woman is either a liar or a a pawn of the left didn't place it there.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Please explain why she is the one asking for an investigation, then?

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Chi

A poor choice? Lacking personal responsibility? Have you ever considered that she might be telling the truth? The amount of victim-blaming in this thread is incredibly sad.

Victims of sexual assault can speak out wherever and whenever they choose.

Why are they not willing to investigate this thoroughly? They are not giving her much time to decide to testify. Why the rush? She's receiving death threats - she needs to weigh that against testifying. Is it worth risking her life and her family against the psychos threatening her? These are not small decisions and it's absurd that they are not willing to give the time to investigate thoroughly.

I don't know why I'm asking. We all know why they are rushing the nomination through. If he's innocent, then he has nothing to worry about. Recent elections prove that.

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sjerin

Watchme, you're being harsher than usual. Your politics are very right-wing but gee, this is too much.

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wildchild2x2

Yes I'm being harsh because I am appalled at women like her who pull these stunts. They do a great disservice to women being taken seriously and huge disservice to those who have truly been victims of abuse and rape. Respect is earned and women don't seem to get that. For some reason they seem to believe that they are entitled to it. Well start with respecting people for who they. Like men for example. Grow up and understand that you don't get to screw someone over just because you don't like their politics.

Right wing? Yes constitutionally. But you don't know me, you don't know my background, you didn't live my life and I can bet you are less tolerant of people different than yourself than I am. It shows. So don't judge.

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Chi

There's no proof that she's lying, though. So how do you know for sure that it's a stunt because she doesn't like his politics? How do you 100% know she's just trying to screw him over? Sounds like an assumption, not a fact.

There are only two people who know the truth. She wants an FBI investigation and willingly took and passed a polygraph test. I hope Kavanaugh will do the same, but I have my doubts. If she's making it up, he should have no problem with either, especially the investigation as polygraphs can be a bit controversial.

In my eyes, her willingness to prove she's not lying really helps her credibility. If he refuses, that also says a lot.

I don't know if she's lying or not. No one does except them. Regardless, it must be thoroughly investigated. Declaring her a liar and shaming and threatening her into backing off with zero proof is not right.

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wildchild2x2

She allegedly passed a polygraph test. It was given by some allegedly former FBI person. Where did he/she get the equipment? What environment was the test given in? Most importantly what questions were asked and how were the asked?

It's not willingness if you delay delay delay and keep moving the bar when the system has bent over backwards to accommodate you and allow you to have your say. He is ready despite being blindsided. She has been lawyered up for several months. What is the delay about? If she's telling the truth she should be ready to speak by now.

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graywings123

An investigation by the FBI would answer your questions, watchmelol.

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Lucille

What is the delay about?

Because there are people ready to slice and dice her. I think after such an assault any women stay silent and with good reason,(not only because they are hurt and overwhelmed) but also there are too many who want to shame and guilt the victim. Those victims get assaulted once by their assailant, and often get psychologically assaulted again if they speak up about what happened to them.

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eld6161

I think Dr. Ford actually thought she could write the letter and yet stay anonymous. Then Dianne Feinstein, who received the letter in July, takes all this time to bring it forward.


Can anyone not agree that she was using this as a way to stall the process of Kavanaugh?


It seems all protocol is out the window with this case. Maybe it means new precedents need to be set in place?


Watchme, although I can agree that there are women who are not honest, I believe the majority would not come out to the public if what they are saying is untrue. For most there is nothing to be gained except their integrity and knowing they did the right thing.


Of course there are a few who make a profit from their accusations, but certainly not the case with Dr. Ford.


I am hoping that with all this press and with the #metoo movement, women will now know they can step forward.


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Annie Deighnaugh

It's so disingenuous to use "delay" as an argument against a thorough investigation when the gop under obama were more than willing to hold a supreme court vacancy for almost a year without even holding a hearing for a man for whom there was zero evidence of sexual assault, gambling debts or perjury.

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lukkiirish

Eld, Normally, I’d agree with the situation being used as a stall tactic, but in this case, I don’t think it was. I think she used due diligence to understand the situation and respect it. And, for a good chunk of the time that she had it, the senate wasn’t even in session, so most of her colleages weren’t around to discuss it. The timing might have been very different if the GOP wasn’t in such a rush to get him confirmed,

The more they push to confirm him the more fishy it becomes. They are most definitely trying to hide a lot about this guy and I suspect none of it is good.

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eld6161

Yes, the plot thickens by the day.

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Debby

When I was assaulted, it was mid April of 1978. I know it was either a Friday night or Saturday night as I babysat his 2 children so he and his wife could go visit friends. I was 17 years old. I can even remember the awful stench of his English Leather cheap cologne and the stale whiskey on his breath. I can remember it was chilly outside, but not so cold I need a coat. I can remember it was very dark outside. I can remember it was a big old car. The colour, of the exterior and interior has faded, but I faintly remember red. I was dead sober. I was terrified. And if it hadn't happened in 1978 when women were blamed because a man couldn't take NO for an answer and instead happened today, I would have gone to the police. I've seen how they treat these cases today, and it's so much more different. SO different. I understand why she didn't report it. And I 110% feel bad for her that so many people doubt her story. Trust me: I had to defend myself a few years back when the children of the person who did this to me questioned me about it. A few believed me lock, stock and barrel. One or two family members claimed I lied. They were not in the car. One was not even thought of yet. One did not even live in this city. She also did not know about this until almost 20 years later. One thing I can say: my story has NEVER changed. Why? Because I did not lie. And I never had to remember my lies. Because I did not lie. When you tell the truth, you have no story to remember. Just the truth.


People can draw their own conclusions to what did or didn't happen. I was not at that party with the woman who is accusing him. I was not in the room. I was not in the country. But I do see a lot of people have opinions about something they don't have a clue about.

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Suzieque

She has received death threats and had to move out of her home and her entire family and life is forever disrupted. Why would she choose this?

And .... death threats? Really? From the pro-life party?

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lily316

No one is nastier than the party of Lincoln. That didn't use to be the case. Back when my Republican father was alive, it was a way more dignified party. That changed around 2000 when they bullied to steal the election and were led by militant right-wingers. Then the tea party was formed later and look what we got as a president. An ignorant reality star with 20 times the baggage of Kavanaugh. In fact, his alleged attempted rape is peanuts compared to what tRump has done with 19 women in the wings with stories waiting to be heard.

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sjerin

Debby, I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

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chisue

Yes, no one has come forward to corroborate Dr. Ford's story about the party. Who would want to subject herself to being vilified by the very people skeptical that it happened?

Prior to posting it on the KT, I ever told anyone about the 'doctor' who attempted to 'test my clitoral response' when I was 16. I couldn't tell you his name or the date it happened. I know I was 16, and it was probably early autumn -- but only because I drove myself to the appointment in the new car my father had given me. My mother had made my appointment with this 'practitioner of alternative medicine'. I never told *her* about the incident. If there was anyone else in his office (part of his home), I didn't see them. Why would the man want an honest *witness* to this?

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raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio

Here is where I have to jump in, and say that the post 2 above is a clear example of the problems in our political area.

The Republicans did not steal the 2000 election. Both the Washington Post and the New York Times did their own analyses and found that Bush did, indeed, win Florida, recount or no recount, when looking at valid ballots. And, most do not understand that the recount in question was not of the entire state. Technical problem with some of the ballots and voting machines were not intentional. However, among those inclined to believe it, the allegation is taken as gospel truth.

I have been of the opinion that fraud was attempted in the same election in Missouri, when the Democrats asked a judge to keep the polls open in order to allow them to get more voters to the polls in a close race for senator (their candidate was in fact deceased at the time of the election BTW). The court order was reversed by an appeal judge. The person who was the plaintiff, claiming that he hadn't been able to vote due to a lack of machines and staff, it turned out actually had voted. The Democratic candidate won anyway, the Republican refused to make an issue of it, and the story died. Unlike Florida, where (as far as I know) Gore has never put the kibosh on the "stolen" spin.

People of all political persuasions believe what they want to believe, untruths and exaggerations circulate and in time become "everybody knows it's true".

This is what will happen with this SC nomination as well, I think. Even if there never is evidence, or the allegation is eventually shown to be not credible, the woman will be forever a hero and icon to some. And, vice versa, if the allegation proves true, some will forever view Kavanaugh as unjustly treated.

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lukkiirish

That’s a matter of perspective Rae. I happen to agree with her and I wouldn’t have put it so diplomatically.

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blfenton

My story - Not a sexual assault but rather a physical one. When I was 20 in the early 70's, I was punched in the jaw by my boyfriend of two years. It was the first and only time.

I remember his name, I remember his excuse, I remember the room, I remember the punch, I remember the look on his face, I remember the shock. I remember the shock.

I don't remember who else was at the party, I don't remember the house but do remember the neighbourhood, I don't remember the date or the time. I remember the punch. I remember the shock.

I remember my parents asking me about the bruise on my jaw and my telling them I fell into a door jamb. I never saw the fellow again. My parents figured it out.

I didn't tell my parents, I didn't tell the police, I didn't fill charges. Why the Hell would I?

I know that there are people here who won't believe me because of the things I don't remember rather than those that I do. Should this fellow ever run for office I will not stand up and speak out even if others do so.

Is Dr. Ford remembering correctly? I don't know. But the quick dismissiveness of her statements is what is worrying and concerning.

I remember the shock staying with me for a long time.

(I posted this on Hot Topics and after Debby posting her experience thought I would post it here as well)

I will add that I remember watching The Burning Bed starring Farrah Fawcett a few years later and started to wonder if I had dodged a bullet.

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Chi

I was sexually assaulted as a teenager by a man twice my age. I didn't know it was assault at the time. I never considered calling the police or telling anyone. As an adult, I realize what it really was.

It was 20 years ago. Details are fuzzy. I know my approximate age. I don't know which of the two years it was, or the month, or where we were other than a car. I don't remember his name or even what he looked like other than dark hair. I met him online and didn't know him well at all.

It still happened, he's still a criminal and predator.

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lily316

I was sexually assaulted by two different men from my church. One was an old man neighbor, the other was the son-in-law of our next door neighbors. Neither men knew one another. I have no idea when it happened...I know where. One picked me up in his car and took me to his house to show me his puppy. I knew him well. The other lived three houses away. Both were upstanding members of the community. I told no one ever even to this day. If they both weren't dead, I'd find a way to let the town know about these predators. I know it happened before I was 13 because we moved away from that neighborhood when parents built a new house.

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Elmer J Fudd

These stories are shocking, sad and disgusting to me. I had no idea how prevalent this was. I don't think I've ever heard personally of such incidents from a victim, certainly never from anyone I've ever known. Maybe they happened and nothing was said.

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Debby

Elmer, I personally know 3 women who were raped. The woman in the article I'm linking below, is a family member. She died before her rapist was caught. She is related through my husband. Another family member of mine went to a friends house. Together they went to her friends friend who drugged my relatives drink. He raped her. She has a severly deformed and mentally challenged 4 year old now. The rapists child. She doesn't believe in abortion and know her child would be born with disabilities. She was 17. He was only convicted of her rape a few months ago and got 2 years. ONLY 2 years! Another woman I know was walking to work just last October. She was grabbed and raped. The man who did this is still at large. She is afraid every time she leaves the house because he could still be in the area. But she will not let him win. She was assaulted a second time (sexual assault, not rape) a few short months later. That person was recently arrested and goes to court next month for his plea.

I read an article on FB that listed everything a WOMAN should do to PROTECT HERSELF from being raped. REALLY? Why not an article for MEN teaching them how NOT TO RAPE??? I taught my boys that no means no. That you don't take what isn't yours. You don't touch someone who doesn't want to be touched. Heck, I don't even kiss my grandson without his permission. He hasn't given me a hug hug in ages and I don't force him. I'm letting him have his own boundries. It's teaching him it's okay to say no.

The #metoo movement shows how many women were raped or sexually assaulted but never said anything until now. We didn't say anything because people, (men and women alike) blame the victim. What were you wearing? Why were you there? Did you try to fight? Why didn't you kick him? All of these questions blame the victim. NO. Never ask a victim those questions. Instead offer a shoulder. Listen to them. Get them help. Believe them. A woman has the right to walk down the street stark nekkid and NO PERSON has the right to lay a hand on her. A woman has the right to be where she wants to be, wear what she wants to wear, say what she wants to say. And NOBODY has the right to victim blame her for someone hurting her.

Sorry, but this is so close to home for me for more reasons than you can know.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/cold-case-rape-trial-22-wayne-bernard-testified-own-defence-1.4116314

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CindyMac

Debby, I was in a similar situation in the late '60s. As I was being driven home after an evening of babysitting the guy took a little detour. I can't remember if he gave an explanation; I can only remember the fear of not knowing what was happening. He stopped in an alley near my house and tried to force my head to his lap. Somehow I managed to jump out of the car and ran the rest of the way home. I never said a word to anyone and I never accepted another babysitting job from that couple. In fact, that was the end of my babysitting career.


ETA: I remember what I was wearing and that it was summer. Beyond that ... nothing.

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Lucille

I still cannot share what happened to me. I understand all too well why someone might not share or talk about such assaults.

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Chi

It's incredibly prevalent. Something like 25% of all women have been sexually assaulted, usually by someone they know. I have been twice by different men. Once when I was 4 and once as a teen.

Many don't report it and this thread shows one of the biggest reasons why. Many are not believed and called all sorts of things if they can't provide absolute proof.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Many thanks to all those posting personal accounts above. I can't even count how many times a male, young or old said or did something unwelcome when I was young (70s/80s) and I never tried to retaliate or report. Who would I report to? There was no Violence Against Women Act back then. It wasn't passed until '94, & if it wasn't "textbook" sexual rape, it was not a crime to be reported to police. Guys were expected to try and gals were expected to resist, then relent. That's the way it was always portrayed in movies and TV. One was supposed to be grateful for male attention, since it was a measure of one's attractiveness.

For me as a smallish female, there is almost always a sense of danger in crossing a male who is usually bigger and stronger and meaner than me.

And then there's this, which I find very concerning:

Sexual Assault Groups Stop Work With Senators Over Treatment Of Christine Blasey Ford “Your actions and comments in the past week have taken us back 25 years,” a coalition of advocates wrote the Senate Judiciary Committee.

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eld6161

Carol, thinking back, how many of had to endure the catcalls when we were simple walking down the street?

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nannygoat18

When I was growing up, these atrocities were normalized and women just "shut up" because they didn't even have the choice to "put up". Even in 2018, the backlash and disparagement is evident.

The standard is that a harasser should have a long list of victims—why did it take 12 women to topple Moonves off his throne? Why wasn’t the first accuser’s story given veracity? A single accusation should not be treated as inadequate evidence-it should be just one of many opportunities to stop harrassment as it begins.

I'm beyond thrilled that some of the mighty have fallen, but don't believe that there will be a sea change as long as that self-admitted sexual abuser sits in the Oval Office as leader of the free world.

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Chi

These stories are so sad. :(

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Elmer J Fudd

What awful stories. I'm sorry for anyone treated so disrespectfully by such losers. This is not how most men are.

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lily316

My story with these two known neighbors made me mistrust all men even relatives like uncles although no family members ever did anything untoward. As a teen and adult, I never had a bad experience. Maybe it's because I "went steady" with a guy for two years in high school and met my husband as a senior when he was in college so I never was out there much in the social scene alone. As a teen, I got a lot of cat calls which I basically ignored but some were scary when a carload of guys would pull up beside me and my friend asking if we wanted a ride. But nothing ever happened thankfully. I am amazed thinking back how some of our male teachers flirted with us and made remarks which wouldn't be tolerated today.

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Elmer J Fudd

I'm reluctant to interrupt this important diversion concerning real and personal experiences, but I will just to mention that a new wrinkle has been added to the Kavanaugh three ring circus.


Chairman Grassley (Republican chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee) had hired a communications adviser to assist with the Kavanaugh confirmation process. This guy was forced to resign, and did so today, because it became known he has a history of sexual harassment accusations from prior employment.


I hate to be so catty, but is he the source of Grassley's statement that he saw nothing wrong with Kavanaugh's alleged conduct? Sorry, I couldn't miss the chance.


Republican hypocrisy is mind blowing.



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eld6161

It keeps getting thicker.

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desertsteph

"The facts are that the Kavanaugh confirmation process is into its 69th day. The average over that last 42 years is 67 days. So it is nothing like a rush. That average is increased by the long times taken to get Clarence Thomas and Robert Bork nominated. Both whose nominations happened to be stonewalled by the same underhanded tactics used by the same political party doing this now."

yes, here we go again. it's nothing if it's someone on the left, like Kennedy, Kennedy, Clinton , Ellison etc. those get buried. they're private matters.

It only matters if it's a republican/conservative.

They have a schedule and if it's a problem for her, she should have gotten on Feinstein's case to push forward sooner. the investigations have been done on him over and over. The left are the ones stalling.

btw, where was she when he was up for federal judge? when his name first came out on the list of possible nominees? it's an agenda.

what investigation has been done on her and her background?


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Chi

She is asking for an investigation. She wants the FBI to investigate. That would include her background as well.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Elmer is this who you are referring to?


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Elmer J Fudd

No, try this. It's an all star cast in any event, especially with Trump's tweets that Kavanaugh did nothing wrong. Trump never did either.

Grassley aide resigns

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lukkiirish

And another “good ol’ boy bites the dust”! How’s that saying go? Birds of a feather?

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maifleur01

Question to those that spoke about their experiences last year in response to "me too". Would you have spoken out if this had happened before then?

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Debby

maifleur01, I told one of my sisters a month after it happened with the promise she never tell anyone. She told. I told some friends what happened over the years and some co-workers. And yes, I named the person who did it. But as for telling his children: I never wanted them to know. Ever. He was their father and even though he was not a good father by any means, I didn't want to make things worse for them. It devastated one daughter in particular. So, to answer your question: I did. Just not the police.

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desertsteph

"She is asking for an investigation. She wants the FBI to investigate. That would include her background as well."

and her 4th 'witness' has notified the FBI that he/she remembers no such party either. Seems no one remembers this 'party' but her.


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eld6161

Seems no one remembers this 'party' but her.

This I find unbelievable.

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maifleur01

Perhaps what I wrote was poorly worded given Debby's answer. My question was if the current situation with Kavanaugh happened prior to last year when people started telling about their "me too" experiences do you think most of them would have spoke of what happened to them. I think most would still be silent given the amount of hate that is being shown to this woman.

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Elmer J Fudd

There's potentially a third woman with 'credible information". I don't know if this is about a third incident or information about one of the first two.

In addition, apparently the Kavanaugh high school friend named Judge, who said recently nothing resembling the alleged behavior happened during the high school years, had told his college girlfriend about a gang rape situation that happened IN HIGH SCHOOL. She's decided to speak up about it because she said "I can't stand by and watch him lie". It doesn't matter if the incident did or didn't involve Kavanaugh, his character witness Judge is no longer credible.

The fat lady is singing, this nomination is as good as over with. Properly so. Maybe when the Dems retake the majority in Congress, they'll proceed with an impeachment investigation for his current federal judgeship position, because of his alleged untruthful testimony to Congress during his prior confirmation hearing.

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maifleur01

I am also hoping that with his gambling problem they take a look at any rulings he may have made about the time he would have received the inflow of unaccounted income.

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Olychick

Well, given the horrendous reaction and treatment of Christine Blasey Ford, I cannot imagine any other woman voluntarily coming forward with a FALSE accusation, risking subjecting herself to the same hatred and threats/danger. Hard enough to do it because it's the truth, but to speak out amid the risks for a false accusation? I don't think so.

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maifleur01

Most of the rapes and molestations are from someone that you know rather than the stranger that snatches you which makes it even harder for a girl or woman to report it. It is even harder when it is a male. I accidentally clicked something on CNN and it was a man recounting his experience at nine of being molested by someone. Few if any would have believed him because of the idea that males cannot be raped or molested unless they are in prison.

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lily316

No wonder Judge doesn't "remember" the party. The news now is he, Kavanaugh, and other guys would ply a girl with drinks and then all have sex with her. He is tainted goods. It's more than Ford's accusation. Women aren't going to sit around and take this good old boys network anymore. No more Anita Hill.

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eld6161

Finally!

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lukkiirish

I agree Oly, tell a fake story and she’d be lynched, on the flip side, traitor trump can tell all the fake stories he wants about anyone or anything he wants and that’s just fine.


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

That 'friend' Judge apparently has a lot of nasty baggage, which may explain his refusal to testify...

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wildchild2x2

But once again all her witnesses including her girl friend refuse to confirm her allegations.

The New Yorker has not confirmed with other eyewitnesses that Kavanaugh was present at the party. The magazine contacted several dozen classmates of Ramirez and Kavanaugh regarding the incident.

“This is a woman I was best friends with. We shared intimate details of our lives. And I was never told this story by her, or by anyone else. It never came up. I didn’t see it; I never heard of it happening.” She said she hadn’t spoken with Ramirez for about ten years, but that the two women had been close all through college, and Kavanaugh had remained part of what she called their “larger social circle.” In an initial conversation with The New Yorker, she suggested that Ramirez may have been politically motivated. Later, she said that she did not know if this was the case.

What a coincidence. Another psychology student now women's rights activist comes out at the 11th hour. Another hazy memory while drunk. Just in time for the hearing.

The story as it first came out
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/senate-democrats-investigate-a-new-allegation-of-sexual-misconduct-from-the-supreme-court-nominee-brett-kavanaughs-college-years-deborah-ramirez

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lily316

Most women with sexual abuse tell NO ONE. I didn't and many others don't. If I went to this party and a friend of mine had this happen, how would I know? And if a traumatic event didn't happen to me, I would remember none of the parties I attended back decades ago. But if I were sexually assaulted you bet I would. There are stories circulating about Kavanaugh and Judge liquoring women up and having sex with them.

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joyfulguy

In addition to the many troubles and pitfalls that beset any woman who reported, in earlier days, usually these experiences take place in a "one-on-one" situation, so it's almost always a case of "he said ... she said".

ole joyful

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socks

True, Joyful. But I don’t think this is “he said she said.” She passed a lie detector test, she mentioned it to her therapist some years ago. Of course he doesn’t remember. He was not the one attacked and anyway he was drunk.

We need Flake, Murkowski or Susan (Maine) to vote against him.

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Debby

lily316, you're right. I can tell you that the family member whom I spoke of earlier ONLY told her mother about what happened to her two or three weeks after she was drugged and raped. The reason she told was because she missed her period. Had she not gotten pregnant from that night, nobody to this day would know what happened to her. She planned on keeping it her secret until the day she dies.

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CindyMac

Third woman comes forward. Submits sworn statement.

Full statement in link. It's 2 pages in length.

https://twitter.com/MichaelAvenatti/status/1044960428730843136

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CindyMac



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phoggie

None of us were there so none of us know .... “A lie doesn’t become truth,wrong doesn’t become right, and evil doesn’t become good, just because it’s accepted by a majority.” Booker Washington Are you a member of the majority?

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Lucille

None of us were there so none of us know .

Because sexual assault is most of the time a private crime, does not and should not stop such a crime from being prosecuted or discussed. And of course additional evidence weighs in on our opinion of guilt/innocence.

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eld6161

And that is what makes it all the more difficult.

If only someone had stepped forward for Dr. Ford, we would be having a whole other conversation. The two other women have given added information, but they have not collaborated Dr. Ford allegations.

When the allegations became public, I thought we would see recent examples. But this did not happen.

All we have to go on is what has happened three decades ago.


We'll have a lot to talk about tomorrow after the hearing,

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mayflowers

In a meeting with Republican Senators today, Susan Collins requested that they call Mark Judge in to testify in front of the committee. She was shaken by Avenatti's client's Julie Swetnick's sworn affidavit. She said that if she is lying, it is tantamount to perjury in front of Congress. Judge's former girlfriend of three years, who said that Judge told her that he had been part of a "train" in high school at a party, is requesting to testify for the FBI or for the Senate Judicial Committee. The male Republican Senators tried to reassure Senator Collins that they didn't need Judge's testimony. Now why do you suppose the good old boys don't want his sworn testimony?

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Kathsgrdn

I know a lot of women who have been sexually assaulted/molested during some part of their life, including myself. My own daughter was sexually harassed at her last work place by one of the owners and found another job. This creepy old man is at least 40 years older than her. She did tell his wife when she quit but didn't want to cause her issues with her business/life so didn't press charges. She also didn't give that as a reason why she left her old job, when applying for the new one. She said she didn't want them to think she was a trouble maker. Two of my daughter's friends were raped by young men they knew and trusted. I have had quite a few talks with my son about dating, especially when he was around possibly underage girls. It's frightening for both. I have no idea if Kavanaugh is guilty or not but this sh_t happens way too much to our children, women and even some men.

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CindyMac



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ronminsouthga

Ford's letter You know, the one Feinstein keeps refusing to hand over to Republicans without it first being censored? The one where Ford made her accusations against Kavanaugh?

Turns out she sent the letter to Rep. Anna G. Eshoo, NOT Feinstein.

Now, why oh why would Ford have done that?

Can any of you investigate that??? That will tell you a lot. Also why didn't the other victims send letters to the Judiciary committee?

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maifleur01

Other people are just now coming forward. So to ask why they did not send letters seems lacking in knowledge of how long it takes for a letter to get from one post office to another. Then to go through all the security measures to protect congressional members.

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mayflowers

She called her representative and met with her and she advised her to send the letter to her Senator who sits on the Senate Judicial Committee. They are the ones who vote on whether to advance the nomination to the Senate. What is your point?

Here is her testimony for tomorrow in which she details the chain of events.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/26/politics/ford-testimony/index.html

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raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio

I think that we are going to see the nomination withdrawn, now that 3 people have come forward to state that Mrs. Ford told them about her experience years ago.

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maifleur01

It is not only Dr. Ford but others have either had physical contact or seen him contact others.

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eld6161

There is this by Ms Swetnick. Wall Street Journal Rebecca Ballhaus and

Aruna Viswanatha

Ms. Swetnick claimed she attended more than 10 house parties in the Washington area between 1981 and 1983 with Judge Kavanaugh and Mr. Judge, and saw them “drink excessively and engage in highly inappropriate conduct, including being overly aggressive with girls” and grabbing them “without their consent.”

She said that in 1982, she was drugged and raped by a group of boys, and said Messrs. Kavanaugh and Judge were “present” when she was victimized. She said witnesses could verify her account and that she told people about the attack shortly after it happened.

Ms Setnick attended parties with inappropriate conduct for 3 years between 1981 and 1983. She was raped in 1982, yet continued to attend parties until 1983?

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Chi

People respond to trauma in different ways. There is no "typical" way for a raped child/teenager to act. Maybe she wanted normalcy, maybe she wanted to help protect other girls, maybe she didn't want to go but was pursuaded by friends, who knows. I don't think it takes away from credibility.

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Alisande

I agree. She had seen this behavior before and incorporated it. She didn't want it to happen to her, but when it did, she knew it had happened to others. It was painful, but it was also familiar. She knew it was bad, but without the wisdom that comes from life experience, she didn't know how bad it was.

I remember my teen years very well. I had a high IQ and a certain amount of street smarts, growing up in the city, but like most teenagers I behaved like a "pack animal," accepting the mores of the group. Today I consider myself lucky that I didn't encounter anything even remotely like what these women described. But then again, I didn't know any prep school boys back then (although I later married one).

Edited to say if what we're watching unfold today had unfolded a lot earlier and become a topic of widespread conversation, perhaps Ms. Swetnick wouldn't have needed life experience to realize exactly how bad her traumatic incident was.

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DawnInCal

Turns out she sent the letter to Rep. Anna G. Eshoo, NOT Feinstein.

Now, why oh why would Ford have done that?

My understanding is that Anna Eshoo represents the district in which Dr. Ford lives so that was who Dr. Ford initially contacted. Congresswoman Eshoo then initiated contact with Dianne Feinstein who is the senior Senator representing California.

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lily316

I am part of the "I believe Christine" movement. I support her 10000%.

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joyfulguy

If I'd ever transgressed upon a young woman's space (or an older woman's, for that matter) in anything remotely akin to what's being alleged here ...

... and my Dad had gotten any inkling of it ...

... I'd have gotten such a whipping that I'd remember it to this day!!

I was taught to respect others ... respect others!

ole joyfuelled

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Elmer J Fudd

I hope this is a figurative comment. There's nothing useful or even permissible by society when it comes to beating kids. It's a crime to do so. To me the mere suggestion of that with whatever connotation is intended is distressing.

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yeonassky

I believe Dr Ford at this point as well. We are a school of public opinion and I don't think that there will ever be an exactly fair trial for a woman standing alone even with lots of evidence saying that she was raped. I generally speaking believe the woman.

I suppose it could look suspicious because she's a woman of some merit. People may believe that Kavanaugh is being attacked simply because he is associated with Trump another person who has been accused by women for inappropriate and worse behavior.

Just imagine if she had gone down the route that some women go which is to become a prostitute or go on drugs after a trauma. It could be that she might not have had the strength to tell her story had she gone another way. We are lucky to have her!

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maddielee

"Ms Setnick attended parties with inappropriate conduct for 3 years between 1981 and 1983. She was raped in 1982, yet continued to attend parties until 1983?"

Victim shaming?

when I was about 12 (can't remember my exact age) a stranger tried to molest me while I was in the water at Clearwater Beach. I never stopped going to the beach.

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eld6161

Maddie, I don't think so. In this case she was also a college student at the time. Sorry, her story doesn't add up in many ways.


Everyone reacts differently to trauma.. I had something similar happen in a local park while on my way home from school. I was grabbed from behind but I was able to break free and run. I haven't really thought about this until you mentioned your story.

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Kathsgrdn

I did forget to mention I never told anyone what happened to me until years later. I'm pretty sure no one would have believed me. I wish now I hadn't told that person. Didn't help my life any. I would never have told my close friends. Been watching the hearing and am inclined to believe this woman and not Kavanaugh. Maybe I'm biased because of my life experiences. I also believe this stuff happens to more women/girls than is thought.

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eld6161

Yes, I agree. With the #MeToo movement, we can only hope it doesn't continue.

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Chi

He's kind of a hot mess testifying right now. Allegations aside, he doesn't seem to have the right temperament to be on the supreme court. He's way too emotional, and I don't just mean the crying but the aggressiveness and anger that he's showing.

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Elizabeth

I totally support women who have been sexual assaulted. I think that Prof. Ford was attacked at some point in her life and is most likely a victim. However, I find Judge Kavanaugh's statements to be more believable to the events at this party in 1982. As this is not a trial with a verdict, I am left to draw my own conclusion and I believe it did not happen as Prof. Ford stated.

( I know others will strongly disagree here, but that is my 2 cents )


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lukkiirish

I don’t believe him. I believe he and lindsay graham are traitor trumps puppets and they are trying to put on a show. Him for the court position and graham for the AG appointment. It’s so obvious

He’s been caught in several lies already and he’s shown he has a temper. He’s disrespectful in the hearing, he’s playing the martyr, like it’s all about him when it’s not. His refusal to request an FBI investigation screams that he is worried about what people in his past will say about him and his behavior casts the idea that he believes he’s above being questioned. I believe Dr. Ford and I believe she has suffered greatly over what took place.

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Chi

It's so frustrating that he won't answer questions but rather keeps deflecting. Senator Harris asked directly 3 or 4 times if he would request an FBI investigation and he wouldn't give an answer. Why not? What's he hiding?

They both claim it 100% happened/did not happen so someone is lying. Something this important should be completely investigated. The fact that she's asking for an FBI investigation and he refuses to ask for one speaks volumes.

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eld6161

Chi, he has been investigated many times already. So, what's one more time?


I can't believe how unprofessional his is. Shockingly so. Wasn't he coached by his lawyer?

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Chi

Exactly, eld. He should be happy for one more investigation to clear his name. They can interview classmates, subpoena his friend who Ford claims was there, dig further into the history. If he's 100% certain this never happened with Ford or any other girl, then there should be nothing for them to uncover.

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ronminsouthga

It's so frustrating that he won't answer questions but rather keeps deflecting. Senator Harris asked directly 3 or 4 times if he would request an FBI investigation and he wouldn't give an answer.

HELLO! FBI investigated him 6 times. WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE READ anything????????????

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Elmer J Fudd

As when Clinton said "I'm sorry", what he and Kavanaugh both are/were sorry about is, sorry for getting caught. Not sorry for their conduct.

I only watched a few moments but i agree with chi. The guy has no class at all and could only see his own behavior as a relative thing, saying in essence "didn't you do the same thing?" and "as adults do we need to defend what we did in high school?" The answer to those questions are "It doesn't matter what I (any senator) did in high school, this isn't my confirmation hearing for a lifetime appointment, it's your's. I have a 6 year term and then have to be reelected, that's my confirmation by the public" and "yes, what you did as a high schooler/college student shines a light on your ethics and attitudes".

The guy is completely undignified and sadly lacking in moral character to sit on a court that defends the rights of our society. There's nothing automatic that those who grow up in an affluent family, spending summers at the country club, necessarily have an attitude of entitlement but even those who do mostly grow out of it. He hasn't, clearly sees himself as entitled to do what he wants, then and now.

An awful nomination by a president who has no ability to assess the character of other humans and whose advisors have mostly the same problem.

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Chi

HELLO! FBI investigated him 6 times. WHY DON'T YOU PEOPLE READ anything????????????

They investigated him before these allegations came up, Ron. No one filed any criminal charges at the time, so there is no reason why this would have come up in their background checks. However, this is new and important information and should be thoroughly investigated.

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joyfulguy

My story goes back about 80 years, Elmer, and I don't think it was a crime to whip your kids for wrongdoing then.

It happened occasionally in school, though it was rare and I didn't get one there ... but Dad had assured me that if I did, and the teacher didn't do enough job, he could.

My father was a kind, gentle man in many regards, and not a harsh taskmaster, but he had standards that he expected to be adhered to.

I was 10 when World War II started in 1939. Dad had a large farm and within the next year our hired man went to war, so for the next five years what Dad and this 12 - 14 or so year old boy and a couple of younger brothers got done ... got done ... and the rest didn't.

One learns priorities: this must be done today - that can wait until tomorrow.

I have held great respect for my Dad, throughout life.

ole joyful

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matthias_lang

Kavanaugh caught me by surprise. He yelled at some points. He developed a twitch. He whined like an angry child, mocking and snottily throwing back the senators' questions on them! He was not graceful under pressure. He would not answer all the questions. He interrupted the the senators. He bragged and bragged in the place of answering. I kept thinking that, in court, a witness who acted like this would be told to shape up, have some self control and respect, answer the question. I really would have thought that a man who has been a judge for so long would have more self control. He seemed amateur.

I ended up thinking, how can a guy like this with so little composure even be a traffic judge, much less a Supreme Court Justice?! I am disturbed about this guy.

I wish citizens had a say in his placement. (And my personal lesson is that I have to find a way to learn more about the local judges that we do elect. I think that will be very hard to do.)

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eld6161

I agree. You nailed it.

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Elmer J Fudd

Whipping children was never an enlightened or useful thing to do. If you want to hold your memories lovingly, that's fine.

I think you said you grew up in a rural area and not in the US but in a foreign country to boot. Just as a comparison, if my parents were still alive, they would be approaching the century mark and so grew up in a similar era. I remember distinctly having asked each if their parents (in different but urban parts of the US) practiced corporal punishment and both told me No. Your experience is your experience. That's fine. Don't assume your experience was similar to what others in that era and in a different country (the US) experienced because I think (based on what I've heard from my own family and others) it isn't. Or that such practices are broadly viewed as acceptable, because I think they're not.

Moni and some others, younger than you, also grew up in foreign countries just as you did and also had childhood experiences not similar to what many American kids their age had.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Seems the president can assess character all right, seems he values a different sort of character than most people do.

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nannygoat18

I started watching when Kavanaugh was being questioned and for a moment, I thought I stumbled on a parody of the hearing. His behavior was so outrageously childish and petulant that it seemed impossible that he could even be a judge at all.

This was a tawdry and ugly debacle, a weaponization of the #metoo movement and the only solution is to throw all of them out.

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wildchild2x2

It's off the main topic but sorry Elmer but I believe you grew up in a bubble and lived a somewhat sheltered life. We're near the same age. I grew up in a post WW2 neighborhood in the Bay Area in the 50s/60s. My parents were the odd ones for not hitting us as a matter of course. We were very rarely spanked as young children but only once did my dad take his belt to my brother and that was for vandalism.

However most of the the neighbor kids got strapped, whipped or paddled on a regular basis for infractions. Corporal punishment was also a thing in local public schools. My Kindergarten classmate who lived across the street was marched to the bus at the corner for almost a week with his mother whacking him with a strap from an old purse because he didn't want to go to school. The family next door was familiar with a ruler on their unclothed bottoms.

If you go to remember when sites people often mention their memories of corporal punishments in and out of school during that era. There are some who were brutalized and abused but most grew up knowing that was just a sign of the times and feel they had loving parents. Slippers, thongs, flyswatters, belts and even paddles purchased at amusement parks were the norm. The rural kids had it worse. Razor strops and riding crops I expect from stories I've heard.

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lily316

Even if he was innocent and I firmly believe he's not, he's an awful man. He is tRump- like in character and reacts like a petulant child. He was alternately whimpering, yelling, making inappropriate comments and trying to use up the time the senators were given by not answering yes or no. If he said beer one time , he said it 100 times. He's a totally repulsive human being and I hope his reputation is tarnished like he's done to his accusers. Mark Judge should be subpoenaed.

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arcy_gw

How does one prove innocence? How does one prove the negative. You can't which is why one is INNOCENT until proven guilty. The most salient facts:

#1 No one near the Dr. back then thinks Kavanaugh did this.

#2 The letter from the Dr. was available in July and was not handed over to the FBI while they investigated.

#3 The process was turned into a Circus by Feinstein and the rabid Democrats.

#4 People are disparaging Kavanaugh because he won't allow false words to be used during the "questions" by Democrats.

It is time for the vote and to move on. Nothing and no one is being served by continuing this Kangaroo Court.

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Alisande

His demeanor yesterday showed the lack of self-control that got him into this mess in the first place. I could just imagine the Supreme Court judges watching his volatile, combative display with feelings of dread, thinking they may have to deal with this guy.

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eld6161

And, my question too is, how did he get this far in his career with this demeanor?

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nickel_kg

Way up thread, on Sept 16, I said "I don't know what to believe." I've tried to keep an open, rational mind as the situation developed. The situation has clarified enough for me to say "No" for this man to sit on the Supreme Court.

I think it's more likely than not that the incident happened as described by this woman. I think it's more likely than not, that this man behaved badly (to put in mildly) as a younger man. If he'd admitted some remorse for some level of regretted behavior in his youth, I would have been willing to essentially give him a pass.

Why is it so hard for some people to express regret for their actions? That's puzzling to me. Can they only feel good about themselves if they've been faultless? That's a might high bar to clear.

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lukkiirish

Just wondering.....for those of you who want this wackado to be confirmed, how important is your health insurance to you? Just because it hasn’t been in the news of late, (which is probably one reason for the multitude of distractions) doesn’t mean that our Healthcare will not be an issue to be determined by the Supreme Court as well. There are several states where the replublican state attorney offices have filed a law suit claiming that part of Obama Care is unconstitutional. The result if they win will be that anyone with a pre-existing conditions will no longer be protected. We can and will have some serious problems finding insurance to cover our illnesses or those of our loved ones especially at a cost that is even remotely affordable. Diabetes anyone? Asthma? Cancer? MS? Autism? And how do you think your mr wackado will vote? It’s been reported that he put on that display yesterday because traitor trump was not impressed with his interview on fox. So, just as large number of the GOP are compromised, I believe he’s compromised with loyalties to frumpy as well. That is not what the Supreme Court is supposed to be about.

I don’t know about anyone else but that’s pretty darn scary.

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Suzieque

Back on Sept. 16, above, I said:

>> Yup.

(Even though I don’t want Kavanaugh approved).>>

I completely change that answer. This is NOT much ado about nothing. I changed my mind very shortly after I posted "yup", and I'm even more sure now. I was wrong then.

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maifleur01

lukk a side note about what you posted above on the lawsuits to remove the pre-existing clause. Yesterday I was watching the hearings and one of the states AG's, Josh Hawley, who have filed these lawsuits had several ads to become a Senator mentioning one of his children has a genetic health problem and he was fighting to keep the pre-existing. He has not pulled this state out of those lawsuits. Apparently he does not care about all the others or he does not have the brains to realize that the lawsuits he is pushing will remove it from his child when they are older. This seems to be the similar mentality. I think that Kavanaugh will be voted in today even though he is not fit at least emotionally for the job. Whether or not when these lawsuits reach the SC they are there on a legal technicality or because they are simply passed along because they are too hot of an issue and could derail a future appointment they will reach the SC.

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Elmer J Fudd

"However most of the the neighbor kids got strapped, whipped or paddled on a regular basis for infractions. "


watchme, we obviously grew up in very different neighborhoods, because how I would change that sentence to fit my experience would be to replace the word "most" with the word "none". I think it was perhaps you that grew up in a bubble, and not a particularly enlightened or modern one.



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wildchild2x2

Think what you will Elmer. It's not hard to find the history of how children were disciplined in the 50s and 60s in our school systems and at home in the US, including California which hadn't become the state of the elitist yet. But hey everyone is allowed to have their own reality. I grew up in a very nice neighborhood where most parents were loving and watched out for each others kids. But this isn't the first time I've thought you either have blinders on to the real world outside your personal existence or you reinvent yourself as you go along.

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Elmer J Fudd

"this isn't the first time I've thought you either have blinders on to the real world outside your personal existence "

You realize this comment of yours does the very thing you (wrongly) accuse me of. You're saying "this is how it was in my world, it had to have been the same in your's, or you have blinders on or you reinvent yourself as you go".

Nope, not the case. If demeaning me makes you feel better, fine.

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bob_cville

I also think it's more likely than not that the incident happened as described by this woman, which makes it more than possible that the other allegations are also true. Even the staunchly pro-GOP Fox news commentators deemed Professor Ford's account to be credible.

Whereas through his demeanor and words and reactions he has demonstrated that in addition to having shown very poor judgement in the past, and likely having had committed one or more sexual assaults when he was younger, that right now he is not suitable as a candidate for the Supreme Court.

It is time for a unanimous "no" vote and to move on. Nothing and no one is being served by continuing this Kangaroo Court.

That however is unlikely since the GOP has shown that they are partisan above all else, and feel that sexual assault is no big deal.

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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

Although I have no idea what this topic has to do with issue under discussion (Kavanaugh) but just wanted to say I also grew up in the 50s and 60's and like Elmer, corporal punishment was unheard of (and possibly already illegal) in public schools in my area. And was very uncommon with the parents of my peers and never with my own parents. Maybe a swat on the behind with an open palm if a child was really unruly but I don't know anyone that was struck with any kind of object or device. So Elmer's "bubble" must be a pretty darn big one.......... :-))

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Chi

Flake won't vote yes in the senate unless there's an FBI investigation. It looks like Murkowski feels the same so with those two votes, they will have to do the investigation. However, the week that Flake suggested is ridiculous. There's no way a thorough investigation can be done in a week. I'll be curious to see what happens.

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Elmer J Fudd

Thanks gardengal, the off-topic but still important myth exploded.


I agree with bob. The guy has been on an important federal court for a number of years but based on his memory lapses, question dodging and adolescent outbursts of anger and self-righteousness, he is very much lacking in judicial temperament. What a loser. This can't be the best and brightest candidate the Republicans can come up with. Sure, they're entitled to choose. They can't be so very inept as this candidate suggests they are.



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lily316

If there is an investigation, the first thing is to subpoena Judge...depression, cancer , alcoholism be damned. The two of them were blackout drunks so they are probably clueless but will lie to protect themselves. Even the Fox Bots bought Ford's testimony yesterday with Chris Wallace saying Kav was toast. Of course, the GOP controlled the whole session and made Ford testify first, then yanked the woman "assistant" because she was too nice and told Lindsey to go Ballistic to fire up the base which he did thus securing his position of AG when trump fires Sessions.

This is all going to come back and bite the GOP in the butt...wait and see.

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socks

Chi, Flake probably felt he would be lucky to get a week. If the investigation takes place, perhaps the FBI could/would ask for more time if it seems worthwhile. We're takin' baby steps here!

I agree, his demeanor and words were miserable. All that water drinking, screwed up red face, anger. And to use his kids' prayers, then near tears, not dignified. No thanks!

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kadefol

This can't be the best and brightest candidate the Republicans can come up with.

Same can be said about the current president. Hopefully the midterms will put an end to the GOP majority and leave this administration dead in the water.

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Janelle Van

It's unbelievable how people are judging Kavanaugh for his demeanor yesterday. What do you expect?? What would your demeanor have been like if you were accused of something so egregious? It's what I expected of him and any normal human being would have defended themselves with the same passion under those circumstances.

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maifleur01

Since he is a long time judge I would have expected him to be calm, and professional about his testimony. What he gave would have been laughed out of court and told to come back when he had control of himself.

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blfenton

I would have expected measured tones and self-control. I would not have expected belligerence towards the Senators. Is this how he treats the lawyers and their clients in his courtroom?

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kadefol

Kavanaugh was completely undignified. Same goes for Lindsey Graham and his hysterical, dramatic outburst. I felt embarrassed for both of them.

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CindyMac

Can you imagine if Kavanaugh were a woman and displayed that same unprofessional, belligerent behavior?

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blfenton

cindymac - It would be called that time of the month. I believe trump has described that.

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Elmer J Fudd

Graham is a politician and there's several centuries worth of a melodramatic oral tradition in the US Congress. Especially in the Senate, which has its own tradition of overly long and unnecessary windbag speeches. All the senators are accomplished at it and enjoy hearing their own voices. Same is true in parliaments around the world.


If you want a laugh and to see drama, irony and cutting sarcasm practiced by masters, watch Prime Minister's Questions on CSPAN. You can get reruns from the CSPAN website, it's easy enough to find.


It's a video series of a once a week segment in the British Parliament where members can ask the PM questions. The leader of the opposition gets priority and has assembled questions intended to embarrass, ridicule or shame what the government has said or done. In return, the staff of the party in power, on behalf of the PM, can often anticipate what may be coming and prepares biting responses. It's really entertaining and maybe only about 30 minutes to watch.

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Janelle Van

He acted HUMAN. What if he were accused of rape or murder - which is likely how it feels to him in the moment? Would you still expect him to be calm and soft spoken? No - you would expect him to be passionate and adamant and devastated and emotional - exactly what he displayed.

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CindyMac

Janelle, guess you missed his Fox performance. Not an ounce of emotion there.

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Chi

I guess his performance worked then for some people! I didn't believe a minute of it other than showing how unstable he is. He was downright nasty to some of the senators questioning him.

I remember Hillary Clinton being grilled for 11 hours and never losing her composure.

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eld6161

Judge Brett M. Kavanaugh and his wife, Ashley, answered questions during a Fox News interview with Martha MacCallum in Washington on Monday.


I would rather have had him this way than what we wound up getting!



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maddielee

"He acted HUMAN. What if he were accused of rape or murder - which is likely how it feels to him in the moment? Would you still expect him to be calm and soft spoken? No - you would expect him to be passionate and adamant and devastated and emotional - exactly what he displayed."

His temperment is not worthy of an appointment to the Supreme Court. When he mentioned the Clintons and the election he lost all hope of seeming to be impartial.

imagine what would have been said if the candidate for SC was a woman who yelled and cried like Kavanaugh.

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Elmer J Fudd

No, his conduct wasn't normal. He came off as a spoiled brat who was upset that something had come to light that might deny him an outcome he wanted desperately. Too bad.

When asked about specific happenings or elements of his conduct, he would repeatedly dodge the questions and say something off topic like he worked hard and got good grades. "I was #1 in my class. I got into Yale". As in, I DESERVE THIS. To which I say, BFD, this is something earned, not deserved.

He was unimpressive, out of control and disrespectful to the process. He was very undignified and not someone I want in an important role. Anyone is welcome to have a different view.

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maddielee

" “It may not be our job to impose sanctions on him, but it is our job to make his pattern of revolting behavior clear — piece by painful piece,” he wrote. “Aren’t we failing to fulfill our duty to the American people if we willingly ‘conspire’ with the president in an effort to conceal the true nature of his acts?”"

These are the words written by Kavanaugh during the Ken Starr investigation of Bill Clinton. If you see the questions he was willing to ask, you may change your mind about him. And see that he didn't seem to be concerned about Monica Lewinsky or her parents.

yes, I understand it was his job.

List of his proposed questions are in the following link.

Article



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chloebud

Janelle Van, well said! Good grief, no doubt he would have been attacked for being the opposite, too. This is all about politics...PERIOD. The democrats would be fighting for their nominee under the very same circumstances. They would have called Lindsey Graham's speech "brilliant" had it come from one of them. Dianne Feinstein could have handled this so much better back in July, but, again, politics. The bad behavior and hypocrisy of it all is beyond disgusting...from both sides!


BTW, I've seen some pretty crazy things written in high school yearbooks. I would not judge a 50+ year-old adult by what he/she wrote at age 16 in a yearbook.

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eld6161

Chloe, BTW, I've seen some pretty crazy things written in high school yearbooks. I would not judge a 50+ year-old adult by what he/she wrote at age 16 in a yearbook.


Yes. I am struggling with looking at and discussing yearbooks of high schoolers. And, if we were to look at character, Dr. Ford does not come across well in her teen age years either.


That be as it may, Kavanaugh was unhinged. Yes, I agree he was angry and probably felt humiliated. After all, in his mind, he did not do it. But, come on, he had weeks and weeks to get used to the idea that he was being accused of this sexual assault. The way he presented himself it was as if he was hearing these things for the first time.


I can't imagine his lawyer telling him to be belligerent and childlike. Yes, that would be just the way to win us all over.

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Janelle Van

Whatever. I'm not going to waste my time. You didn't like his performance on FOX, you didn't like his performance yesterday. You didn't like him before you knew him. If he was truly a hothead and partisan and evil - after a lifetime of PUBLIC service I'm pretty sure we would have known all that long ago.

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Suzieque

Ummmmmm, Janelle, we're finding out now that he DID show that long ago .... by assaulting Ford and the others .....

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Janelle Van

Ummm... You are making my point. It has never come out until now. Smells suspicious doesn't it?

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wildchild2x2

I now fully embrace an FBI investigation. Into HER past.

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chloebud

eld, we just see things differently, but I totally respect your opinion. To be honest, I thought Dr. Ford was very credible, but I felt the same about Judge Kavanaugh. As I mentioned, I just really hate the hypocrisy in politics. You can't deny there's bad behavior from both sides. I laughed out loud when that senator started asking about the yearbook. I can honestly say I would have done the same thing if a republican senator was asking Dr. Ford about her high school yearbook. One thing's for sure...glad I don't have to explain some of mine to the US Senate!

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Kathsgrdn

I didn't care for most of the people who asked questions or the accused. Thought they were very rude on both sides. I also have a problem with the accuser and not wanting to fly to Washington to testify but she flies all over the world for work and fun. I don't like to fly but do so I can go on vacation to places I want to go...this isn't about having fun, she thought it was so important but didn't want to fly to answer questions? I still believe her allegation but have a little issue with this point.

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wildchild2x2

I do believe something happened in her past that messed her up in her head that she has never been able to fix. Perhaps she has a mental illness that screws with her perception of things. You can be highly intelligent and still be mentally ill. I just don't believe it had anything to do with Kavanaugh.

Now the political side of her? Is it coincidence or was she simply a convenient pawn the left stumbled upon?

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chloebud

Yes, Kathsgrdn...I thought the flying issue was a little odd, too. My guess is she was probably even more uncomfortable having to deal with a plane and the hearing yesterday than a plane and her work. She did mention flying was easier for her if the destination was something fun.

Just a question to throw out to anyone. Maybe I missed this yesterday, but does she remember who took her home from that party? Where is that person? There's just not much corroboration with this whole thing.

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ronminsouthga

We will see a red wave just wait and see.

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nickel_kg

Nothing wrong with questions, but if you're asking them, it's good to listen to the answers.

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chloebud

Yes, listen and have respect. Goodness knows we could use more of both.

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phoggie

No, she did not remember how she got there, where it was, how she got home, who was there....

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maifleur01

chloebud at the hearing yesterday she mentioned it was before she received her drivers license so someone drove her home and she got that when she was 16. Before someone states that she should have said something to the driver you should know better to ask that if you have ever had someone of that age in your car. You just ask, shut up and drive.

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phoggie

There is not a person who is worth their salt that would not get emotional about the attacks being made against yourself, your family, your life, and your very being! Yes, REAL men cry!!

i have no doubt she may have had some type of attack but do not believe it was Kavanaugh! Not once did he attack her and his 10 year old daughter said they needed to pray for her. If that does not touch your heart, it must be made of stone! To each their own opinion but I am entitled to mine as much as you are!

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wildchild2x2

Cloebud - Doesn't remember how she got there, where "there" actually was or how she got home. I 'n not sure if they managed to pinpoint the actual year yet but media keeps saying she was 15 so you'd think she could figure out the year wouldn't you.

There is zero history on this women. All social media was wiped before this went public. No friends or acquaintances from her past. How can someone become so well know in a matter of week s have have no past? At least no past other than the day she claims Kavanaugh assaulted her.

If you look at her testimony it was mostly reading it. Hers came from careful planning. His came from out in his own words.

And what was with liddle widdle five year old voice she would lapse into. Then She would go into adult professor mode and use her "big words" to justify a statement she made. That neurotransmitter encodes memories into the hippocampus, and so the trauma-related experience then is kind of locked there whereas other details kind of drift," then back to widdle girl. It was like watching The 3 Faces of Eve or Sybil.

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CindyMac

BTW, I've seen some pretty crazy things written in high school yearbooks.

This was printed in the book, not something handwritten.

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CindyMac

There is not a person who is worth their salt that would not get emotional about the attacks being made against yourself, your family, your life, and your very being! Yes, REAL men cry!!


Then why no emotion a few days earlier in his Fox interview?

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chloebud

"...but media keeps saying she was 15 so you'd think she could figure out the year..."


Yes...you'd definitely think she could at least figure that out. UGH...don't get me started on the media!


We owe a lot of this mess to Dianne Feinstein and the "anonymous" issue. Again, the politics.

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CindyMac

Let's not lose sight of the fact that even before Dr. Ford came forward the Democrats were questioning Kavanaugh's credibility. That has only intensified since.

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maifleur01

chloebud I was sexually assaulted in my twenties I can tell you where but not the date or time of year. Other women on here have posted similar things by your posts you are essentially telling everyone on here that have admitted that they have been sexually assaulted that they are liars. You probably mean it which makes it so much worse.

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wildchild2x2

This FBI thing is just another delay tactic. How are they supposed to investigate something that happened where? when? who? or what? They are already whining like a bunch of spoiled little brats throwing a tantrum about how a week isn't long enough just hours after they were given the concession way.. I do hope this explodes in their faces. Vicious, self serving little demobrats.

Yes I am critiquing her little ploy to appear vulnerable by acting like a frightened kindergartener. She put herself in the public eye. She lawyered up ahead of time, took her 2 question "polygraph" ahead of time so please don't start with the she wanted to remain anonymous fable.

Personal insults against J4 Cindy? Sweet. No we knew who the crazies are over there. the ones that call our President silly little names meant to be insulting and post outright lies about him or even believe themselves to to be clarvoyant.

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CindyMac

Just the truth. One and the same.

j4C11

stan-rare pepe

stan_kekee

j4c1143

legion_p

noigel

geotus

legion_p_3

legion_p_4

legion_p_6

legion_t

legion-d

allez_cuisine

pastriew

sorter

gondola

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maifleur01

I thought there was several others by the way things were written. But if someone wants to have a different name to go with each personality it is on them.

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foggyj2

Politics is nasty, dirty business. Keeps people riled up, and divides us. Do we really need the "court of public opinion"? What do cameras do in a hearing, except, make politicians behave like movie stars, playing to a camera. IMO, they are not necessary, and are a distraction. We will hear about the proceedings on whatever news program we wish to watch. It becomes an entertainment show. Yes I know, it does give us insight to the behavior of some of the politicians, and that's interesting.


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Olychick

"If he was truly a hothead and partisan and evil - after a lifetime of
PUBLIC service I'm pretty sure we would have known all that long ago."

Well, sometimes someone's true character doesn't show up until things aren't going his way. Someone from his past (a former roommate, I believe, said he was a beligerant drunk when he was younger).

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lily316

If Ford had a kindergarten voice, Kavanaugh was a hot-headed, privileged white boy who got caught. I hope they decipher his yearbook bio. The word isn't for flatulence...it's for inserting liquid up your rectum. Devil's triangle is two guys and a girl...not a drinking game and the Renate alumnus is a reference to a girl by that name who was "easy". He's not a choirboy and I hope people come forth like the REPUBLICAN woman on the news tonight who said she went to Yale, was a heavy drinker and often drank with him. He was a stumbling drunk all thru Yale. So perhaps he and the poor excuse Judge were so stumbling drunk they had a blackout. And how inappropriate was it to ask the female senator if she ever blacked out? What a creep. The show he put on shows his true character and even if it didn't happen (and I fully believe Ford), he shouldn't be confirmed because if his braggadocio condescending partisan dog and pony show.

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Raye Smith

Glad to hear someone else heard the "little girl" voice too, I found it quite irritating.

I know several people in the legal field, here's what they have pointed out. If you go to the police without a time, date, location, witnesses or physical proof there would be no instigation, no proof of a crime committed. Here are the kinds of things they would look for as corroborating: a physician's bill for her injuries, an excuse for her absences from school? There should be a way to corroborate her charges before moving into an investigation/questioning phase.

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lukkiirish

‘We will see a red wave just wait and see.”

LMAO. Just like your traitor trump had the biggest inauguration EVER...period. Yeah right! Ha!Ha!Ha!

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sjerin

Raye, I don't think you are hearing what some of the women here are saying. I hope you will go back and read again.

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Lucille

If you go to the police without a time, date, location, witnesses or physical proof there would be no instigation, no proof of a crime committed.

That is not true. I worked as a school nurse for many years and from time to time had to call in Children's Protective Services and sometimes the police as well. The police DO investigate even sometimes when there is little to go on at the time the complaint is made. I remember a little second grader talking about her relatives and a 'stick' when she was trying to describe her sexual abuse. Yes, both the police and CPS became involved.


Vicious, self serving little demobrats.

I think calling names generates more heat than light. And the more heat generated, the less likely other women will come forward now or in the future if they have been sexually assaulted.


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Elmer J Fudd

Raye, it isn't a legal proceeding, so criminal law and procedures are wholly inapplicable. It's a job interview. No ground rules, no do's and dont's. Gather information as best possible (including background investigations and interviews, not at all unusual for important positions), follow up leads, assemble then review and assess the info, come to a conclusion. Done.


I expect that the fairytale picture he's tried to portray will crumble. We'll see.

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yeonassky

I know Kavanaugh is a slightly different story but I think one of the problems is it's very common for people to report the rape right away while they're in shock and to not have very much information. The police usually take information from them but a lot of times it doesn't get processed at all. Like in the case of the rape kits found in an old Warehouse in Detroit linked below.

Hopefully what was done afterwards will at least have rape kits not be lost in the ethos.

I wish all reports of rape could be processed better. I do think there is some fumbling when there is a rape reported.

Maybe the police need to be better trained on how to handle such a sensitive case. Maybe back then they couldn't follow the footsteps of people as well but now with cell phones they can often pinpoint where people were a little better.

https://www.ted.com/talks/kym_worthy_what_happened_when_we_tested_thousands_of_abandoned_rape_kits_in_detroit/transcript?language=en

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raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio

One of the things that I like about our current state attorney general is that he made a priority of processing the huge backlog of rape kits in the state, and set guidelines for local authorities for handling them. That has been completed.

I was not impressed at all by the evasion of some questions by Kavanaugh, he truly did not seem to want to revisit the party lifestyle of his high school and college years even if he wasn't as bad as some (and there are opposing witnesses, remember) have depicted. He also really seemed to be trying to play a sympathy card in his answers, and his opening statement blaming the Clintons was ridiculous. This on top of some of his previously expressed opinions on points of law -- heavy reliance on precedent vs analysis and original thought which had already turned me against him. I do think this is a post too high for him.

BUT I can certainly relate to emotions displayed by both the accuser and the accused. For those who think that he couldn't possibly be calm & collected in one interview, then not so in another, I can tell you as someone who has witnessed and experienced much trauma and emotional/moral distress in life and my career, that (at least, for me) it becomes a skill and a habit to suppress and/or not display one's feelings in order to be able to continue getting the job done -- and that often carries over into ones home life; but those feelings and emotions can break out at surprising times and in unexpected ways. Unless you are a body language expert, you really can't rely on what or how you think someone should be reacting in a stressful situation to judge their veracity. This goes for the critics of the accuser, as well. I could just a easily claim that since she has told this story many times, addressed it in therapy and was reading a statement, that she shouldn't be so emotional. Her voice could have been trembling from fear of being exposed as false. . But how could I possibly know that? I can't. Neither can any of us. And I can't and won't say that her demeanor, or his, is evidence.


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olliesmom

She can’t remember how or when she got to party or how she got home-BUT she can remember she had ONE beer! Bazaar! She doesn’t seem all there to me.

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yeonassky

Well talking about trauma always brings me back to the trauma. And I am definitely not in the here and now when I am talking about the trauma. I truly think that people have to realize that it actually changes your brain when you have a traumatic event. It makes new brain pathways. It changes you. It disrupts the you you thought you were.

However we can never know exactly what happened. Still I am more inclined to believe her despite her characteristics or maybe even because of them than I am him.

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Raye Smith

Lucille, there's a huge difference in the ability of a small child - a second graders ability of communicate and an adult ability to communicate barring any physical/mental disorders. The police will always investigate a child's claim for that reason.

A senate confirmation is a hearing and so much more than a job interview, the appointee is under oath during testimony and liable to perjury for lying.

I'm not saying that someone didn't attack this woman but without date/time/location/witnesses/evidence it's a case of "he said, she said". It's impossible for the accused to present evidence to exonerate himself.

How would you defend yourself if accused of a crime but not given a date/time/location for you to prove that you weren't there?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Please keep in mind it really does not matter whether or not you believe Dr. Ford. (And really, basing one's skepticism on a woman's high pitched voice?) How many people believe Kavanaugh? I sure don't. He has lied and has shown a temperament/disposition wholly unbecoming to anyone seeking the position of Supreme Court Justice. His display of hyper partisanship is also extremely troubling and clearly unsuitable for a Supreme Court justice..

And forgive me, but the numerous repeated talking points about her failure to provide specific dates & other details seem especially specious. Who here would be able to provide complete and specific detail about a traumatic event 30+ years in their past? Most people try to forget and move past trauma, not relive it forever.

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Elmer J Fudd

Yes, it is a job interview.

There are too many people stepping forward crying BS about too many things he has said. Including that former classmate, an admitted Republican voter, who said he's trying to paint a picture that doesn't comport with the truth and called his comments "blatant lying".

We all deserve better.

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chisue

He blew it.

He spent two days at the White House being prepped by his owners.

He had a choice of how he acted. He decided to follow the blustering, obfuscating path Trump would choose. He ranted like a madman when he should have displayed the *judicial temperament* that is the most basic requirement for the job.

BTW, I hadn't known until now that the FBI has a menu. Did you know you could order an investigation lasting X number of days? Can you also order the result?

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CindyMac

but those feelings and emotions can break out at surprising times and in unexpected ways


Especially when you're told by Trump to get loud and angry.

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lily316

And be tRump- like. But I'll bet tRump didn't like the crying. The wingers would have criticized Ford if she acted in the manner he did.

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Elmer J Fudd

Lily, I think your thoughts may be better received if you refrained from the needlessly disrespectful way you type the president's name. It's like name calling that you (and many others) dislike when the other side does it.

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foggyj2

Amen.... At least citizens of this country can speak in that manner, and not be afraid of policemen coming to their door. They can be as disrespectful, and hate filled as they want, and still be safe from retribution.

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Elmer J Fudd

"At least citizens of this country can speak in that manner, and not be afraid of policemen coming to their door."


In what modern democracy (and there are dozens and dozens of them in the world) do you think that happens? I'd say in none of them.

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foggyj2

I didn't specify "modern democracy". North Korea comes to mind, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, and others. I wouldn't want to try publicly criticizing the government in several countries around the world. That was my point.

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Elmer J Fudd

You said it as if it the situation here were something unusual, and it isn't. Your list is short, mine is very long. Perhaps I misunderstood.

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Chi

I could remember how many beers I had no matter how long ago because I only have one drink when I do drink. Maybe she's the same.

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Alisande

I had the same thought, Chi. As for her age and the year, we all have 12 months between birthdays. Unless someone is born January 1, those 12 months span two different years.

I see the Jesuit magazine America has withdrawn its endorsement of Kavanaugh. The Jesuits, of course, run Georgetown Prep.

I also see the American Bar Association had concerns about Kavanaugh's bias in 2006, before the Senate made him a federal judge. Now the ABA wants that FBI investigation. As Maddielee pointed out above, Kavanaugh lost all hope of claiming impartiality the minute he blamed anger over Trump's election and "revenge on behalf of the Clintons" for the situation he was in.

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wildchild2x2

She was born November 28, 1966. So she turned 15 in 1981. It's not that difficult. Her 15th summer was in 1982.

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chisue

There are at least a hundred other people qualified for this *lifelong* position. Let them come before the public to be vetted. Many should be able to display the most basic qualification -- a restrained, judicial demeanor.

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eld6161

Does anyone think that the FBI will uncover any additional information? The only missing piece that I see is Mark Judge. He needs to admit that he was there. If indeed he was.


No one else is stepping forward.


What do you think they can do when they investigate Dr. Ford?

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eld6161


I saw this on FB

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Chi

Apparently the White House is really limiting what the FBI is allowed to investigate. They aren't letting the FBI talk to Julie Swetnick, any of his former classmates who have challenged his recollection of his alcohol consumption, or any of his high school classmates.

Why are they not letting the FBI check these sources? What are they trying to prevent from coming out?

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raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio

I really don't understand how the White House would have the authority to prevent the FBI from looking into those claims.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Because this is not a criminal investigation.

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CindyMac

They interviewed Ramirez. She gave names of witnesses, but who knows if the FBI will be allowed to question them with the limited scope.

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Chi

Of course Trump lied and said the FBI is allowed to interview anyone they want. I think most people are able to see through what they are trying to do.

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eld6161

Where is this information coming from?

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socks

I agree chisue. There must be dozens of other candidates who do not have all the question marks and who would make more senators adequately comfortable to vote for. Ones who display the dignity and self control we admire in our jurists but did not see in Kav. My main problem with him is primarily his opinion of presidential immunity and secondarily his behavior when questioned, which was poor.

I am currently listening to Justice Sotomayor’s memorir. What a difference between a person who earned everything she got and the candidate who possibly drank heavily in school, possibly attacked a woman, may have questionable money issues, maybe even gambling, and was born with a silver spoon. Omg.

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CindyMac

James Comey wrote an op-ed in the NYT. Gives a slight bit of hope. But that's not saying much.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/30/opinion/james-comey-fbi-kavanaugh-investigation.html


"The F.B.I. is back in the middle of it. When we were handed the Hillary Clinton email investigation in 2015, the bureau’s deputy director said to me, “You know you are totally screwed, right?” He meant that, in a viciously polarized political environment, one side was sure to be furious with the outcome. Sure enough, I saw a tweet declaring me “a political hack,” although the author added, tongue in cheek: “I just can’t figure out which side.”

And those were the good old days. President Trump’s decision to order a one-week investigation into sexual assault allegations against Brett Kavanaugh, his Supreme Court nominee, comes in a time of almost indescribable pain and anger, lies and attacks.

We live in a world where the president routinely attacks the F.B.I. because he fears its work. He calls for his enemies to be prosecuted and his friends freed. We also live in a world where a sitting federal judge channels the president by shouting attacks at the Senate committee considering his nomination and demanding to know if a respected senator has ever passed out from drinking. We live in a world where the president is an accused serial abuser of women, who was caught on tape bragging about his ability to assault women and now likens the accusations against his nominee to the many “false” accusations against him.

Most disturbingly, we live in a world where millions of Republicans and their representatives think nearly everything in the previous paragraph is O.K.

In that world, the F.B.I. is now being asked to investigate, on a seven-day clock, sexual assaults that the president says never happened, that some senators have decried as a sham cooked up to derail a Supreme Court nominee, and that other senators believe beyond all doubt were committed by the nominee.

If truth were the only goal, there would be no clock, and the investigation wouldn’t have been sought after the Senate Judiciary Committee already endorsed the nominee. Instead, it seems that the Republican goal is to be able to say there was an investigation and it didn’t change their view, while the Democrats hope for incriminating evidence to derail the nominee.

Although the process is deeply flawed, and apparently designed to thwart the fact-gathering process, the F.B.I. is up for this. It’s not as hard as Republicans hope it will be.

F.B.I. agents are experts at interviewing people and quickly dispatching leads to their colleagues around the world to follow with additional interviews. Unless limited in some way by the Trump administration, they can speak to scores of people in a few days, if necessary.

They will confront people with testimony and other accounts, testing them and pushing them in a professional way. Agents have much better nonsense detectors than partisans, because they aren’t starting with a conclusion.

Yes, the alleged incident occurred 36 years ago. But F.B.I. agents know time has very little to do with memory. They know every married person remembers the weather on their wedding day, no matter how long ago. Significance drives memory. They also know that little lies point to bigger lies. They know that obvious lies by the nominee about the meaning of words in a yearbook are a flashing signal to dig deeper.

Once they start interviewing, every witness knows the consequences. It is one thing to have your lawyer submit a statement on your behalf. It is a very different thing to sit across from two F.B.I. special agents and answer their relentless questions. Of course, the bureau won’t have subpoena power, only the ability to knock on doors and ask questions. But most people will speak to them. Refusal to do so is its own kind of statement.

Agents will summarize every witness encounter in a detailed report called a 302, and then synthesize all the interviews into an executive summary for the White House. Although the F.B.I. won’t reach conclusions, their granular factual presentation will spotlight the areas of conflict and allow decision makers to reach their own conclusions.

It is idiotic to put a shot clock on the F.B.I. But it is better to give professionals seven days to find facts than have no professional investigation at all. When the week is up, one team (and maybe both) will be angry at the F.B.I. The president will condemn the bureau for being a corrupt nest of Clinton-lovers if they turn up bad facts. Maybe Democrats will similarly condemn agents as Trumpists if they don’t. As strange as it sounds, there is freedom in being totally screwed. Agents can just do their work. Find facts. Speak truth to power.

Despite all the lies and all the attacks, there really are people who just want to figure out what’s true. The F.B.I. is full of them."

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CindyMac

Eld, I've seen it from 2 different sources this afternoon.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/30/politics/deborah-ramirez-fbi-kavanaugh/index.html


AND...

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murraysmom Zone 6a OH

Of course Kavanaugh doesn't remember any of these atrocities. When something is unremarkable to you, you tend not to remember it.

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Alisande

The Atlantic has an article about a case on the Supreme Court docket for next month: Gamble vs. US, Case #17-646. It involves the "separate sovereigns" exception to double jeopardy. If Kavanaugh and the other four conservative justices vote to eliminate the exception, people given presidential pardons for federal crimes cannot be tried for the same crime at the state level. I think this must be rather important to Trump, and helps to explain the rush to get Kavanaugh confirmed.

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Elmer J Fudd

alisande, I don't think Trump is either smart enough nor familiar enough with issue details to be to so focused on what you suggest. I think his level of understanding is very limited. Instead, when he decides he wants something (as in this case, a nomination approval based on advice and decisions of his advisors) , his narcissism leads him to become frustrated when it doesn't happen immediately or, as is possible here, may not happen at all.


The number one issue that interests him is himself, it's almost all he ever talks about. That was why he was seen as such a clown at the United Nations when singing his own praises.


I found this opinion in Wikipedia on the case:

" "According to Columbia Law professor Daniel Richman, state and federal charges usually have "no overlap, or almost no overlap, that would ring Fifth Amendment chimes in the absence of the dual sovereign analysis", and so the impact of overturning the separate sovereigns doctrine would be minimal" "

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Alisande

That's reassuring, Elmer, thanks. I agree completely about his limited level of understanding (on any issue), but someone like Stephen Miller could (and undoubtedly has) put ideas in his head, complete with instructions.

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nannygoat18

No matter what the outcome, Dr. Ford will certainly go down in herstory.

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CindyMac

Don't for a minute think that Trump is running this show by himself. He knows full well what's at stake for him. That's why he was told to choose Kavanaugh.

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Elmer J Fudd

Great column, thanks. I missed it. I especially liked her referring to Kavanaugh as an insolent snot.

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lily316

He IS an insolent snot...an entitled party boy who was a falling down drunk who probably has no memory of assaulting young girls. He's a vile man.

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eld6161

Lily, his past adolescent behavior is certainly up for display for the world to see and judge , but where are examples of this vile behavior in his adult life?


I will play devil's advocate here. People can't change? Ever? Realize that they made a terrible mistake and move on to try to become better?


Elmer, I don't like the name calling the article For me, that always bumps things down a notch. The message was clear enough, no need for it.


Again, I've said this up and down in this thread. I believe Dr. Ford, but it makes me uneasy that there are too many holes left unanswered. The timing too is suspicious to me. And then the way things were handled, one blunder after another. It's a mess.

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maddielee

eld, does it concern you that he wasn't truthful about the meaning of the sex act terms he used in his Senior profile? Is lying under oath now ok? Remember, he told us how smart he was in high school, no question he knew the meanings.

or does it concern you that his statements about revenge of the Clinton's, and mentioning the election and the 'left' dissolves all hope of him being an impartial Justice?


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socks

Elmer, glad you caught the “insolent snot” comment. It made me laugh out loud!


Edited to add one other tidbit I learned this morning. Remember when he choked up discussing his father’s calendars? It would lead one to believe that daddy is “gone” now, but no, daddy was sitting right there in the audience! I wonder if Kavanaugh had a brewski before his presentation. So maudlin.

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maddielee

"Again, I've said this up and down in this thread. I believe Dr. Ford, but it makes me uneasy that there are too many holes left unanswered. The timing too is suspicious to me. And then the way things were handled, one blunder after another. It's a mess."

Dr. Ford named Kavanaugh (to her therapist) as her abuser 6 or 7 years ago. Way before the 2016 election and the thought that Kavanaugh might be nominated. She contacted Eshoo when he was on the short list, hoping to stay anonymous. When Feinstein was first contacted, Dr. Ford still wanted to remain anonymous. That may be why the timing seems off to you.

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mayflowers

How can you believe Dr. Ford and also say the timing is suspicious? The timing is a result of Ford not feeling he deserves to sit on the SC. Are you feeling it's not right for her to speak out now because you feel she's politically motivated?

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Chi

I do think that some people can change. I'm not sure if he can. The first step would be admitting the "mistake" (if you can consider sexual assault a mistake) and apologizing for it. I think that would go a long way.

But he's not going to admit it, or he is telling the truth and he truly doesn't remember because he was so drunk. But since he also denies drinking until he's blackout drunk, I don't see that ever happening.

So far it's procreeed like every other scandal in this administration. Deny everything, lie when necessary and just wait until it blows over. It's a shame some people care more about covering themselves than doing what's right for the country.

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CindyMac

The Trump administration offers one coverup after another.

This so-called FBI investigation is a sham. That was clear when Trump tweeted this lie:



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maifleur01

He may have tweeted it but did he tell the FBI that he had changed his mind about what they were supposed to do. Someone that handles these things in the administration would have to resend whatever written instructions that were given to the FBI. No one in the government that has any intelligence goes by anything other than what is written if they have been with the government for any time on important things like this.

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eld6161

Mayflowers, I think she is being used, which is why the timing is suspicious to me. Not on her end, she sent the letter weeks and weeks before. This all could have been settled much sooner is what I am saving.

Maddie, I heard that although she might have said his name, there is no actual paperwork that has Kavanaugh's name on it. Can you share the proof of this?

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lily316

As smart as he says he is, he lied to the committee about his drinking, about his innocence of the vulgar bio of him in the yearbook, he became belligerent, brought up the Clintons and sounded like a maudlin drunk when he whimpered over his calendar. Who wants to see this unstable man on the SC?

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mayflowers

I don't see her as a victim of the Dems at all. She first contacted the Washington Post and then her Congresswoman. Feinstein received her letter July 30. During August, Ford was at her grandmother's funeral in Maryland, taking a polygraph, and consulting her attorney about whether she should come forward publicly. Meanwhile, reporters got wind of the letter. The reporter who first published the
accusations said he did not get the letter from Feinstein or her staff. After being contacted by reporters, she felt she might as well come forward. I think Feinstein sat on it while waiting to see if she was credible and if she was willing to talk openly to the FBI or the Judicial Committee because they can't investigate without a name. Ford should have bypassed the WaPo and her Congresswoman and gone to the FBI while the hearings were in the early stages to avoid the accusation that she sprung it on Kavanaugh at the last minute.

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Elmer J Fudd

Unintendedly and ironically, I think Kavanaugh's own conduct has moved the main issue away from the series of alleged outrageous attacks to, more generally, whether his testimony has been truthful.

What he has said, especially of his drinking habits, have not been credible, nor believable. Too many college age friends and others who knew him well are speaking up and saying so in outrage. Flake and Coons said last night, in agreement, that if any part of his testimony is found to be untrue, the process is over. That's my prediction for the outcome. The old Washington truism - it's not the misdeed that matters the most, it's the coverup.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh-is-lying

"...The existence of a “he said, she said” does not mean it’s impossible to figure out the truth. It means we have to examine what he said, and what she said, as closely as possible. If both parties speak with passion and clarity, but one of them says many inconsistent, evasive, irrational, and false things, while the other does not, then we actually have a very good indicator of which party is telling the truth. If a man claims to be innocent, but does things—like carefully manipulate words to avoid giving clear answers, or lie about the evidence—that you probably wouldn’t do if you were innocent, then testimony alone can substantially change our confidence in who to believe...."

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eld6161

Then there is this:

In the memo, which was sent to all Republican senators and was obtained Sunday night by NBC News, Rachel Mitchell, the deputy county attorney in charge of the Special Victims Division in Maricopa County, Arizona, said her "bottom line" was that "a 'he said, she said' case is incredibly difficult to prove."

"But this case is even weaker than that," Mitchell wrote. "Dr. Ford identified other witnesses to the event, and those witnesses either refuted her allegations or failed to corroborate them."

"I do not think that a reasonable prosecutor would bring this case based on the evidence before the committee," she wrote.

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Elmer J Fudd

That's irrelevant because as mentioned before, this is a job interview, not a criminal matter. One alleged victim or one shout in the night of "BS" can be dismissed. There's a pattern here and numerous, unrelated people now in various parts of the country speaking up that for me can't be coincidental or an organized effort. The hearing is intended to give the committee a sense of the nominee's attitudes and comportment. He's pushed the needle off the scale in a direction he certainly didn't intend.

I did lots of job interviews in my career. Innuendo, suspicions, and unseemly suggestions/coincidences in information at hand lead to go/no go decisions. The standard of proof is a hunch or a gut feeling, not any evidence high bar standard as in a criminal trial sense.

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mayflowers

That he drank in high school and college and wasn't truthful about it won't make one bit of difference to the GOP Senators. It's more important to them that they confirm him to satisfy their base for the midterm vote and make the Dems look like they went on a witch hunt. The only thing that will change a GOP vote is if the FBI finds that any of the sexual accusations are credible, and even then, it will only swing a few votes--Collins, Murkowski, and Flake. But that is enough.

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kadefol

Even if Kavanaugh did not commit the crime(s) he is accused of, his belligerent, rambling, combative, undignified tantrum during the hearing should disqualify him from serving on the highest court of this country. He came across as an entitled, aggressive bully who feels he is above reproach and greatly resents being questioned about anything. And given this behavior when (presumably) sober, I shudder to think how he acts when he is drunk.

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eld6161

Mayflowers, when asked that question he said he drank beer.

"We 'drank beer' and sometimes had too many, Kavanaugh says at hearing." Can you give me the example when he wasn't truthful about his drinking during high school?


Kadefol, I agree. But, I have not seen these judges in action. I'm thinking they don't always have perfect decorum.

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Elmer J Fudd

Yes. To the question "did you ever blackout" he responded something like "No, I don't think so, but I fell asleep". That's been contradicted by those who knew him.

When you blackout, it is ultimately like falling asleep and you may not remember your conduct.


To each his own. I don't think zooming in on detail matters here. He's made an awful impression, he's the opposite of a good example of the personality type that should be on that court. Let the Republicans try again with someone a bit less pompous and self-righteous.

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Chi

They don't care about that though. They want someone in quickly at any cost, for the multiple reasons mentioned above.

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mayflowers

It doesn't matter that he drank beer. It matters if he drank to the point where he may not remember what he did the night before. That's what they want to know because it would give Ford's accusation more validity. But K doesn't want to admit to drinking to that point of intoxication because it will raise doubts about his denial of attacking her. Others from college are reporting that he often drank to that extreme, so there is his lie.

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CindyMac

Ford should have bypassed the WaPo and her Congresswoman and gone to the FBI while the hearings were in the early stages to avoid the accusation that she sprung it on Kavanaugh at the last minute.


How many people would think to contact the FBI first? What she did sounds the most logical.

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mayflowers

Well, I don't have a PhD like she does and I know that the FBI does background checks on Supreme Court nominees.

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phoggie

Hey Everyone -- This pastor's powerful sermon of 9/30/18 -- explores the BIBLICAL REQUIREMENTS FOR ACCUSATION. What happens if a person can accuse with zero witnesses? What happens if the rule of law is guilty until proven innocent? What happens if we ALL are investigated and held accountable to poor choices made in our youth in spite of decades of upstanding living? Would we have a Moses? A St. Paul? Would we have anyone qualified to serve in Congress? or in any leadership position? And finally, a call to rise above political party affiliation and treat EVERYONE as God directs us. https://gracechapel.net/media/kavanaugh-biblical-qualifications-for-bringing-accusations/

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nickel_kg

Phoggie, with all respect, it's not about finding a person without sin. It's about finding a person with character, integrity, and self control -- as well as the requisite legal background. There are other candidates who would serve us all better. Our President needs to make another selection.

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eld6161

Nickel, who would you like to recommend?

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Elmer J Fudd

phoggie, with all due respect, this is a civil/political matter having nothing to do with any particular person's choice of religion. The majority of the people in our country don't subscribe to his brand of belief nor make civil/political decisions based on religious dogma. He's welcome to his opinion as is everyone else. Those of other beliefs or no beliefs likely wont find anything useful in his words,

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nickel_kg

eld, I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, but I don't know, because I didn't used to care. No that's not quite right -- I used to trust that our system would work okay without my paying attention to it. Still nothing to be proud of.

What I do know is that this President will appoint a conservative, not a liberal. Kavanaugh was one name of several on his short list. So chose one of the others and let the process continue.

What I want our system to do is ensure that candidate has enough smarts and enough self-control and integrity to give his or her best ruling on whatever case comes up, without regard to political party.

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wildchild2x2

I can take religion out of the pastor's words and still agree with them. The message is meaningful regardless the source. Thanks Phoggie.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Please - Kavanaugh is/was NOT on trial for any crime. He is/was interviewing for the highest position a judge in our country can attain. His life or liberty is not in jeopardy, as it would be if he were on trial.

How many here ever acted, or would act like that at a job interview and still expect to get the job - a job presumably much lower in stature and significance than a Supreme Court judge?

And I guess I need to point out that when people do manage to turn their life around and become better, one of the first/main things they do is face their bad behavior and own up to it, usually apologizing to those they have wronged. Nothing like that was on display during Kavanaugh's hearing. HIs self-righteous outrage was the classic response of someone trying to brazen their way out of seriously bad conduct. IOW, DARVO.

Not long ago ago, I listened to this rabbi interviewed about a piece she wrote for the Washington Post, before Rosh Hashanah, about repentance, forgiveness & atonement, as it is taught in Jewish tradition, relating it to the current #MeToo movement and men who have been disgraced because of it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/famous-abusers-seek-easy-forgiveness-rosh-hashanah-teaches-us-repentance-is-hard/2018/09/06/c2dc2cac-b0ab-11e8-9a6a-565d92a3585d_story.html?utm_term=.ef2bef0166c1

(posting this excerpt because I know some people don't like to click links)

"Since the #MeToo movement exploded almost a year ago, our culture has been grappling with questions about what repentance and redemption should look like in the context of sexual misconduct. A great many men have been named as perpetrators and suffered almost unprecedented professional consequences for it. Yet not even a full year later, many of the accused whose careers initially seemed ruined are angling for comebacks, including Mario Batali, Charlie Rose, Bill O’Reilly, Garrison Keillor and Kevin Spacey . Matt Lauer told some fans in late August, “Don’t worry, I’ll be back on TV,” despite allegations of an extreme and rampant pattern of sexual harassment. Louis C.K. performed a couple of weeks ago at a comedy club, his first gig since admitting that he had forced a number of women to watch him masturbate.

Are these men sorry? Should they be forgiven? More to the point, perhaps, who has the right to forgive them?

For such questions, sometimes you need a rabbi. Judaism has thousands of years of scholarship on forgiveness and atonement; this is the season when Jews traditionally make tshuvah — engaging in a process of repentance and repair for all we’ve done wrong this past year. Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, begins Sunday night, and Yom Kippur, the day of atonement, follows 10 days later. And the classical Jewish categories of “repentance,” “forgiveness” and “atonement” might be able to offer some insight to Jews and non-Jews alike....

...The Jewish tradition teaches that repentance is really hard work, in contrast to the glib and easy way these accused perpetrators are seeking cheap forgiveness from popular culture. America is often perilously quick to welcome comebacks, in part because we don’t really know what it means to atone.

According to Jewish law, though, the most critical factor is repentance, tshuvah — the work that a person who has done harm must undertake. There are specific steps: The bad actor must own the harm perpetrated, ideally publicly. Then they must do the hard internal work to become the kind of person who does not harm in this way — which is a massive undertaking, demanding tremendous introspection and confrontation of unpleasant aspects of the self. Then they must make restitution for harm done, in whatever way that might be possible. Then — and only then — they must apologize sincerely to the victim. Lastly, the next time they are confronted with the opportunity to commit a similar misdeed, they must make a different, better choice....

...Forgiveness is up to the victim and the victim alone. Atonement is up to God....

...What would indicate that their tshuvah was in earnest? A shift in priorities, an investment of their wealth or time into work protecting victims of assault and harassment or creating policies that would better prevent abuse. They would be stepping away from the ego-stroking, power-holding limelight that makes abuse so easy to perpetrate in the first place.

We would see something like the work of Rabbi Yosef Blau, who, after understanding his complicity in enabling a sexual abuser to continue his work as both a high school principal and youth group leader, has dedicated much of his life and work to advocating for victims of sexual assault. Or we might see real commitment to preventing harm in the future. Shira Berkovits, founder of Sacred Spaces , told me of a Christian man she once met who was incarcerated after raping his nephew. As he was preparing to be released, he wrote to churches telling them what he had done and asking for permission to pray there. For, he said, “I can’t be safe and the people around me can’t be safe unless we talk about the real risk” — the abuse that he knows he’s capable of committing.

He owned the harm he had done and asked for help from prospective faith communities to ensure that he’s not put in situations where he could rape again — all the while, of course, making himself very vulnerable to social rejection. While this is not necessarily complete tshuvah — I don’t know what amends he made to his victim, and I don’t know what choices he made once released — he was clearly working hard to change, not to do the same harm again. There are no shortcuts....

...Whether an abuser’s victim or victims have forgiven them is a separate question from whether perpetrators — public entertainers or not — have done tshuvah, and it’s their business, not ours. There are many talented people whose work we could reward instead of rushing back to people who haven’t truly repented. That would send a clear message about not tolerating rape culture.

Rosh Hashanah is almost here. The Talmud teaches that the gates of repentance are always open. Maybe this will be the year that more perpetrators choose to walk through them."

I have said before, though, that it really doesn't matter as much whether or not we believe Dr. Ford, but whether we believe Kavanaugh. Why did he try to paint his young self as so innocent? It was way too squeaky clean to be true, given that his best buddy was apparently a raging alcoholic. His attitude & demeanor were not that of a reasonable, thoughtful person wrongly accused. He had a meltdown. Supreme Court justices do not have meltdowns.

And of course now, friends of his from that time have called him out on his lies, and refuted them.

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nickel_kg

eld, I googled a Washington Post article from June ... from those choices and very limited overview, I like Thomas Hardiman. Have you (or anyone else) researched potential judges? I'd like to get more fully educated on them.

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Delilah66

Has anyone read or heard that Dr. Ford admitted to a drinking problem around the time of the assault? Someone told me that and I couldn't refute it, but I've neither read it nor did I hear it during the hearing last week.

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mayflowers

Trump not only bragged about sexually assaulting women, he claimed it as an entitlement because of his wealth and fame. This was no false accusation, and still, Christians voted for him. Now they claim we need to turn to the Bible in the Kavanaugh case. Using your Bible and your faith to justify your support for men like trump and Kavanaugh is hypocritical and non-Christian. You'll support them whether they're rightly accused or falsely accused. And then, a call to rise above political party? How laughable. I only see that call from conservatives when the person in question is a Republican.

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Chi

What happens if a person can accuse with zero witnesses? What happens if the rule of law is guilty until proven innocent? What happens if we ALL are investigated and held accountable to poor choices made in our youth in spite of decades of upstanding living? Would we have a Moses?

  1. Someone SHOULD be able to accuse with zero witnesses. How many sexual assaults happen with witnesses?? It can't be that many. So what is a victim supposed to do if no one else was around? Just pretend it didn't happen?

  2. Sexual assault is not a poor choice. It's not a mistake. It's not a bad decision. It's not a youthful indiscretion. It's not an accident. It doesn't matter how many beers were consumed. It doesn't matter if she was drinking. There is absolutely zero excuse for sexual assault.

    And it doesn't matter how long ago it was done when you're talking about giving someone this type of power over our laws and protections, especially when talking about decisions over what women can and cannot do with their own body. I don't want someone who feels entitled to violating women making those types of decisions.

    And yes, it's alleged, I know. That is why I want a thorough investigation, not the 7-day, extremely limited "investigation" that they agreed to. If there's even a chance that these multiple allegations are true, it needs to be examined very, very carefully. It's sickening what they are willing to overlook to advance their agenda.

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phoggie

Watchmelol...thanks for the kind words...I just get tired of the posters who have appointed theirselves as judge and jury about this matter and they were not there so do not know what happened on the night in question! "Judge not, lest you be judged."....and every one will be judged even if most on here do not believe.,,

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Elmer J Fudd

Yes phoggie but your words describe the false wall the white, male Republican senators on the Judiciary Committee are using as an excuse to hide behind. It's too bad only one of them spoke up with integrity but at least one did.

No one else was there, so it didn't happen? Preposterous. Also, what you're doing and they're doing is similarly judging and choosing sides. Don't be hypocritical about it.

And again, please find all the solace and guidance you want in the words that come from your choice of religion. Hopefully it also teaches to accept that not everyone else feels about it as you do, nor shares your views/choices, and that tolerance is important. This isn't a "your way or the highway" proposition.

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eld6161

Chi, I agree that someone should be able to accuse with no witnesses. It just makes it almost impossible to prove either way.


Drinking certainly doesn't give anyone a pass on behavior, but things do happen when one in inebriated that would certainly not happen while sober. I have had my share of over indulging in my youth. DH stopped drinking entirely while in his early 30's after getting home one night and not remembering how he got there.


I do have issues with the amount of time that has lapsed and all the things that Dr. Ford could not remember. Again, I'm not an expert on the psychology of assault victims, but there is a part of me that believes that after 36 years, she could have pieced together a bit more information.

Asa I mentioned up thread, I also found it hard to believe that not one friend knew she was going to this party who could at least step forward to say they knew she was heading out to a party. I also find it interesting that she went alone. Most kids that age run in packs.


From what has been coming out Dr. Ford did not have a stellar reputation either. So, if we are going to judge Kavanaugh for his past, then we need to do the same for Dr. Ford.


Again, I do believe something happened. Even though everyone keeps calling this an interview, it feels like a trial to me. And, at this point, although I am sad for Dr.Ford, I have too many doubts.






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mayflowers

From what has been coming out Dr. Ford did not have a stellar reputation either.

I have not seen a word of this anywhere. What was her reputation and what is the source? Why does it have any bearing on her being assaulted? Is this an "she asked for it" scenario of blaming the victim?

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Chi

Asa I mentioned up thread, I also found it hard to believe that not one friend knew she was going to this party who could at least step forward to say they knew she was heading out to a party.

It just seems impossible to expect a friend to remember that Dr. Ford went to a party one night 36 years ago. Since she didn't tell anyone about the assault, there's really no reason for a friend to remember a random social event so long ago. Dr. Ford remembers the party because she had a traumatic experience.

Could you remember and honestly report if a friend of yours told you about and attended a party in 1982? I just don't think that should be held against her.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

FWIW, she was not 'headed out' to a party, it was a stop-in, impromptu. She had a beer and when she went upstairs to the bathroom, she was shoved from behind into a bedroom, IOW ambushed.

Forgive me, but I don't understand why some seem to be fixated on every aspect of the long-ago assault. The bigger point is how Kavanaugh and the GOP have responded to this, as well as a contingent of talking heads pushing a variety of false rumours and talking points meant to discredit Blasey-Ford.

Why the insistence by GOP and Kavanaugh himself that he's the guy and it needs to happen right away? I understand there is a highly qualified conservative woman judge in the running.


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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

"From what has been coming out Dr. Ford did not have a stellar reputation either. So, if we are going to judge Kavanaugh for his past, then we need to do the same for Dr. Ford."

Sorry, but this holds no water with me!! Ford is not the one who is being considered for a life long judicial position that carries with it extreme responsibility so whatever she might have gotten up to in her youth - other than lying - has absolutely no bearing on this issue! And regardless of whatever it is she may have done, there is nothing in her past that could possibly justify a sexual assault!!

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eld6161

Mayflowers, "she asked for it" scenario of blaming the victim? No, not at all.

Chi, good point. It can't be held against her, but it can't be held FOR her either.



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mayflowers

So what has she been accused of by the dirt diggers? She was only 15 so what was her reputation?

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Delilah66

"From what has been coming out Dr. Ford did not have a stellar reputation either. " What has been coming out????

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eld6161

She was involved in the party scene that was prevalent in the exclusive private schools at that time.

Again, I believe her and what happened to her. And, I am not for Kavanaugh. I'm just trying to figure out all of the pieces.

Gardengal, of course no one should be sexually assaulted. Agreed.


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Delilah66

That's it? She went to parties?

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mayflowers

At the time of the attack, she wasn't allowed to go to parties. I thought she testified to that or maybe I read it. The Georgetown Prep party scene was keg parties and she didn't attend those at age 15.

Where is this info about her reputation coming from, eld?

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maddielee

"From what has been coming out Dr. Ford did not have a stellar reputation either. So, if we are going to judge Kavanaugh for his past, then we need to do the same for Dr. Ford."

Really? What is a 'stellar reputation' when you are 15? Who did you get this info from (sounds like a FOX News smear the witness opinion?

plus it doesn't even matter what her 'reputation' was. If he held her down he is a fault.

He has lied to the committee, that alone should disqualify his appointment.

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palimpsest

Dr Ford is not vying for a position where she can shape government policy.

And the stance seems to be that a young man who drinks cannot be held accountable for his behavior, but a young woman who drinks is not only accountable for hers but also for that of any man she is with.

At this point I am not sure whether I care if he is innocent or not...

But I do know I am not comfortable with a whiny crying paranoid clearly partisan member of the Supreme Court.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I agree, pal, and I'm also not of the double std that seems so prevalent right now: even the "appearance of impropriety" is enough to disqualify a nominee ...unless it's someone trump supports, in which case, anything goes: From child molesting roy moore to racist arpaio to compromised, paid foreign agents like flynn and manafort to corrupt actors like pruitt and incompetents like deVos.

I remember Kimba Wood who was disqualified because she didn't collect taxes on her nanny until the law said she had to, and then she did. So she did *nothing* illegal but was still eliminated.

I remember John Tower who was not confirmed because of issues around his drinking, though so many claimed they never saw him drunk.

Now let's appoint someone for life who has a history of, at a minimum, perjury and being a belligerent black-out drunk, let alone a sexual assaulter whose legal opinions are well beyond accepted juris prudence.

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Chi

It's sad where the country is headed, with morality being dependent on political agenda. If this were an Obama nominee, he would be gone already. I have no doubt about that.

But they are keeping him around to advance their goals instead of picking someone else. They have time to pick someone else before January but they want someone this month to cover their butts in the SC trial soon, so they will confirm him no matter what. It's sickening.

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