Monarda, have you asked Peter Schneider at Freedom Gardens? He has a huge selection of older Austins that he will propagate even if not listed on his site.

As I wrote on another post Freedom Gardens does grow Wild Edric and will custom propagate. He also carries a slew of other older Austins for immediate delivery and would like to empty his stock. Let's help him do that! ; D

I just got two great roses from Peter and six great lilacs. I'm thrilled he has Wild Edric after seeing Ingrid's. He is very easy to order from too.

I just received an order from Freedom Gardens and I’ve never been more disappointed. I received 3 “1 gallon roses” that are nothing more than 3-4 inch tall cuttings with a few roots in a bag. On the other hand, I also received 4 roses from Long Ago Roses, (for cheaper) and even the ones Linda considers “small plants” were 3-4 times bigger and with larger root systems. I am still in shock. I just don’t understand how its even possible for them to be in business..

Here’s a picture of a Plant from Freedom Gardens next to one from Long Ago Roses:

They both arrived yesterday. The difference in size and quality just blows my mind.

Freedom Gardens offers roses you can't get anywhere else, I understand.

For the record I have received rooted cuttings from Vintage Roses much, much smaller than what Raoul shows. (The one from Long Ago, is huge!!).

I just ordered 3 from Freedom Gardens: The Prince, Indigo and Old Port. I am grateful that he has these as I was finding it difficult to get my hands them. I'm fine with the size, they will grow and catch up. The other bonus for me is he is in Ohio and grows his roses outdoors, another cold zoner like me. Peter is so easy to work with for orders too! :)

I agree, monarda. It's exhorbitant for me to order from a few nurseries that charge shipping and handling etc. with almost the same price for bands, while Peter has flat rate shipping.His main appeal is that he is the only North American source for many, if not most of his 1200+ roses including Paul Jerabek's, Delbard's, Tantou's and the early Austins. Although some offerings may be found through Canadian sources, those are grafted on multi-flora which is unsuitable for many places, besides which some folks just prefer the OR he offers. I would pot that rose up and see what happens. I've found that the initial size does not determine a rose's vigor nor the size of the top growth.

I've personally received quite a few roses from him and they've all thrived which is really all I want. Mine were packed with roots and survived the winter beautifully filling out the pots I put them in. They were not the size of those from ARE, but more like those from Chamblees.

Freedom Garden is a small outfit comprised of just Peter, his wife and a single greenhouse to my knowledge. His main focus is on writing the annual combined rose list, writing books and articles and growing the cuttings for his yearly open house. He has been expanding the numbers and quantity of roses he offers for year-round sales due to increased demand and a desire to share these rarities. He also custom-propagates which is uncommon from almost any of the other nurseries with the exception of perhaps Burling. I am thrilled he feels it's worth the hassle of shipping them instead of just offering them to those to make the June sojourn to his garden. I'd be so upset to lose this resource if he were to decide otherwise.

Raoul, I did want to commiserate about receiving something that didn't meet your expectations. I guess mine were tempered as I'd been to the open house and saw them for sale there in person, although even then the sized varied a lot depending on the variety.

I think they both look nice & healthy! Also, the root balls appear to be roughly the same size? Keep in mind that how tall the cutting is can also be impacted by the variety of rose.

I know the more experienced appreciate what Peter is doing, and know these starts will grow into wonderful plants. The rose community has a variety of groups and those who feel more confident with a larger plant to start can stick with the mass market growers.

I once received a 2” plant of Blue For You mail order that I paid top dollar for, and was initially shocked at the size...at the time, there was only one vendor for this variety, so I accepted the tiny plant put her in a pot. A season and a half later, here she is:

Now I’m very grateful that I was able to acquire her!. I hope your little plant similarily her exceeds humble start.

I am by no means and old experienced gardener, I’ve only been growing roses for about 8 years. I still remember the first two roses I purchased: Lady Banks and Don Juan. I quickly acquired all the different varieties I could find locally and started making trips to Chamblee’s and the ARE, as well as ordering online in search for rarer varieties. Since then I’ve added hundreds of different varieties to my collection. I grew out of what mass market growers could offer pretty quickly, so I can definitely appreciate what people like Peter, John, and Linda among others do to preserve old and hard to find varieties. I guess I was just in shock because when I think “1-gallon” roses I think about the gallon roses I would get from Chamblee’s before they sold. Those plants went from gallon containers to 3x3 shrubs over the course of a year! At first glance, what I received more closely resembled the 2 month old plants I rooted myself this year. However, after getting over the initial shock I was very happy to have added 3 new plants to my collection, and I’m sure they will take off and do just fine. I guess part of why I was so shocked is because I received my order from Long Ago Roses at the same time, and ordering from Linda has spoiled me! Her plants are always such nice sized plants and take off so quickly. I’ve ordered dozens of roses from her over the past year and I’ve never been disappointed.

Ben, that is a beautiful plant! Good to see someone else growing blue for you in Dallas! Thank you for sharing.

Raoul, have you received any new roses from the "new" Chamblees? I'm just wondering if they're the same size or what given the price hike. It's actually funny you had this experience with FG and I had it with my initial order from Chamblees which looked like a small rooted cutting stuck in a 1 gallon container. I quickly learned to order a later ship date so they could be in charge of growing them up in a warmer climate. I guess one just never knows and those little roses quickly grew to outpace some grafted DAs I received at the same time. What roses did you order from FGs and LARs?

Vaporvac,

I received The Prince, The Endevour, and The Fisherman’s Friend from Freedom Gardens, and St. Cecilia, Wise Portia, Nahema, and Sunny Side Bob from LARs.

As for Chamblee’s I haven’t ordered anything since they sold. The prices nearly doubled and I can’t figure out if their roses are now bigger, or if they simply doubled the price on their gallon roses. I’ve been meaning to drive out there to check out the new place and see for myself if it’s still worth it to buy from them, but I’ve just been too busy. I guess if I do end up checking it out I’ll make sure to update you!

John last updated this thread at the end of October. I just saw it this morning and want to post a reminder. Rene at Palatine told John that they would be posting their list of available Early English Rose varieties and numbers on their website on December first. It is my understanding that because of the very limited numbers this year, there will be a limit of one plant per variety per person. These are of course grafted plants which I personally like because of the increased vigour for those of us growing roses in the cooler climates.

I looked this morning and there is nothing on the Palatine site yet, so I guess December 1st it is. I have been privileged to have been privy to the list and I will tell you there are likely going to be 62 varieties on the list. Many very rare an long unavailable.

We owe John, Rene, and Summer in particular and a few other very devoted English Rose connaisseurs a debt of gratitude for making this exciting event happen. Please support Palatine for doing this and good luck in the vintage rose lottery of the winter.

As John stated above, larger numbers of these vintage Austin varieties will be available for sale in fall 2020,

Cheers, Rick

Raoul, Chamblee's site says the current plants are 1 gallon, so they did basically double the price for the same size rose. Someone recently wrote that the on-site nursery has quarts for the old price, but was unsure if they were a permanent thing and whether they would be offered for mail-order. So far it doesn't look like that's the case, but perhaps if folks voice an interest they'll consider it.

Rick, that's fabulous about these Austin's. I hope one day to get Potter and Moore. Thank you all for doing this.

I have been ordering roses from Chamblees for around 2 decades. Back in the day, they charged $8.95 for unpatented roses and perhaps a dollar more for patented roses or Austin roses. I think the price for their roses has gradually over the years to around $13 for roses and perhaps more for patented roses until Mark Chamblee sold this nursery. However, the cost of shipping roses to CA, as increased more rapidly than the cost of the roses. If you are ordering a single rose, the cost of shipping for one rose to so CA, the cost for a single rose plant could exceed $20.

But if you are ordering more than one rose, the cost per rose goes down. If you play with the site, you can find out what it costs to ship 3, 4, 5, etc roses and determine what number of roses you have to order, to find the lowest shipping cost is per rose. At one time, the best shipping cost per rose may have been 8 or 10 roses. The best price per rose around 10 years ago, was around $3 to $4 per rose, so the cost per rose (with shipping included), was around $16 . Over time, the lowest shipping cost per rose, increased to $5 to $6. And so the cost of buying one of Chamblee's roses (including shipping), was around $18. The new owners have raised the price of their roses to $21.95; and if you order 5 roses, the shipping is free. And so for those of us in CA, the price of a delivered rose has increased from $18 to $22. Of course, this doesn't help you if you don't want to order 5 or more roses or if you live so close that you can pick them up at their nursery.

John, thanks to you and Summermorning and to Palatine for your combined efforts, I planted Geoff Hamilton and St. Cecilia this spring. I feel like the kid who got the pony for Christmas. If they offer the old Austin roses again, I will plant more. I never dared to dream I'd have these two in my garden. I am grateful for your generosity.

Rene Schmitz, the owner of Palatine Roses, has told me that he had his professional British 'budder', produced many more plants of these older Austin varieties, in fall 2019; these will be offered for sale in fall 2020 (i.e., in just a few more months!). I am happy for you that you were able to get these 2 roses; perhaps you will be able to get even more later this year. But Rene Schmitz is the real hero IMO, for taking the risk financial risk in allocating his finite resources in producing these. I believe that he sold nearly all of them, so I am happy for him. It is satisfying to me, to have played a small role in preserving some of these worthwhile treasures at least for a few more years. My collection now includes a few more rare, off patent or never patented Austin roses that I hope to convince Rene to include in this program.

So glad you got Geoff Hamilton and St. Cecilia-both are outstanding roses here, and, hopefully, in your garden as well. Please share cuttings of these with others as you can, so we can keep them in circulation longer. Both of these root very easily.

John

John, your role wasn't small. And, I'm also glad it worked out well for Rene. I love it when good things happen to good people.

John, there was some glitch that deleted my comment or at least I couldn't see it. I'll have it posted again.

I've been searching for Sir Edward Elgar for years and was thrilled that Rene included it in his budding program, thanks to your generous donation, John. However, I never saw these DAs listed for sale on their website and I'm surprised to learn that they were on sale this year. How can we get the information about their list of DA roses for the fall? Please feel free to PM me if that's more appropriate. Thank you.

Hi Vesfl,

I have had posts occasionally disappear from this site, so you're not alone.

Things were a bit chaotic in the sale of these roses last fall, as the Palatine team was trying to determine the best way to market these roses. The inventory list of roses available for sale, was not listed on the Palatine website in early December 2019. The list was posted on a different website that I believe Palatine uses for selling other products besides rose plants.

In digging the roses and getting orders ready for shipping, Palatine processed his usual inventory roses first. When he had that well in hand, they harvested the roses for this project; once he had the roses harvested, he sent me a list of the number of plants he was able to produce for each of the 62 varieties in mid September 2019. He had 5 grafted specimens of Sir Edward Elgar for sale at that time. Orders were taken on a first come, first serve basis a few days later. I presume that all 5 of these were sold, but I assume that there will be more than 5 specimens for sale at some time in late fall this year. Sir Edward Elgar is an excellent rose in our garden, and I hope it performs well for you in yours. If by chance you are not able to get a specimen, please let me know and perhaps we can trade rooted or unrooted cuttings. SEE roots very easily here.

Thank you, John! It's fantastic that Elgar made it. I'll call them in the fall to see if and how I can get it. If it doesn't work out, I'll get in touch with you and it would be wonderful to trade rooted cuttings. It's very kind of you, many thanks.

Marlorena, thank you for bringing the Dutch nursery to my attention! So much to choose from - I could hardly contain myself. I will try to limit myself to varieties that are unavailable in my own country.

The efforts of John and company are greatly appreciated, even though I am on the other side of the pond. I am thankful for the great preservation work that passionate rosegrowers do all over the world.

MetteBee... that's ok.. I thought you might already know it, being so close.. I think it's a good idea to order what you cannot get locally... I did get 9 roses from TL last winter, all doing well, at 5 euros each how can one resist such temptations ?.. and they're all grafted on 'Laxa', which is the same here,.. huge roses, big roots and well packed.. but the only Austin I got was Charles Darwin, which isn't rare, but a lot cheaper than the prices charged where I am..

Yes, great Canadian/U.S. effort.. it should be better known, internationally.. or, on the other hand, best to keep it 'quiet' too..?..

I am looking for Evelyn. Apparently K & M says that David Austin took it off the market so they no longer can grow it. My first time dealing with them. Any advice on where I can get Evelyn rose?

Tina, they told me the same thing a few days ago! I hear Otto & Sons might have it, but havent contacted them yet.

I think Austin is still growing it, but sold out, and more won't be available until next year. I read this in a recent thread, but sorry for the vague details. Have you contacted David Austin Roses? Diane

Roses Unlimited has it listed -- you could email Pat, the owner, and see what the current availability is. She's very helpful.

Seems tricky to find. Roses Unlimited emailed me earlier this fall that they're not carrying Evelyn anymore:

"We will not have Evelyn for next spring. We no longer offer this rose."

Austin told me that they're sold out until 2022 but will start taking pre-orders for her in Spring 2021 (for delivery Spring 2022). They warned me that she sells out as soon as she hits their web-site though..........which of course makes me even more curious to grow this rose and see what she's all about. I wonder if anyone has ever been disappointed with her. I'm surprised they don't have an entire farm dedicated to propagating her if she's this popular.

B-she is a beautiful fragrant rose. If you can find he, grab her. I’m a one of person, simply because sun spots are hard to come by here and there are so many roses I want to try but all this talk of Evelyn disappearing makes me want a back up. I would never want to be without her.

Tina B,

While I had 'Evelyn' in my collection at the time that I sent my list of Austins to Palatine, I failed to include it on the list, so I don't believe they have bud wood of this variety. I have added around 20 more vintage Austin roses to my collection since that time and may offer to send more of these to Rene at Palatine. But I am not sure that he will be able to accommodate more in addition to the 62 that I have already sent, on top of the 300-400 (?) rose varieties that he is already propagating.

I have also been sending Austin rose cuttings to Mindy at Hummingbird Roses, a new rose propagation enterprise, and thought that I had sent her cuttings of 'Evelyn' at one time; but she moved from Dowling, MI to Clare, MI, and so may have lost some of her roses in the move. I will send her cuttings of 'Evelyn' in my next shipment to her, so that it will be accessible through this vendor in time.

Needless to say, I am passionate about preserving some of the older products of the Austin breeding program, and it brings me joy to help keep them in circulation as one of my retirement projects for at least a few more years, now that many of these now out of commerce. Many of these may not be as refined as the newer releases, but still have their own special charm in plant form, floral characteristics, and/or fragrance.

I stick cuttings just one time per year from November to mid December, and can stick some cuttings of 'Evelyn' for you, if you like. I know the frustration of not being able to get a rose that you really want-it took me over 6 years to locate 'Cressida', one of my favorites from years ago.
I was finally able to get it from Hortico, but not until I was sent plants of 'Charles Austin' instead of the 'Cressida' that I had ordered for 2 years in a row. At that time, Hortico was purchasing bud wood cuttings of these Austin roses from Austin Roses USA. Hortico was sent mislabeled budwood (i.e., the budwood labeled as 'Cressida' was actually 'Charles Austin').

It was so rewarding when the true 'Cressida' plant it arrived in the third year and I first experienced the strong and unique fragrance of this beauty.

I called David Austin Roses last week. They said Evelyn was not being discontinued but would not be available until 2022 because of the demand. So there is hope for the future at least. John, thank you for all you do to preserve these lovely roses! Wish there was a nursery that devoted themselves just to the discontinued Austin roses!

John, I ordered Cressida from Palatine thanks to you and can’t wait to see how she does. Thank you so much for all your work to keep these roses in circulation!

@john_ca I just wanted to say thank you for the work you're doing! It allows those of us who love some of these (perhaps deliberately) long lost roses to continue enjoying them. I can't imagine it's easy work so your labor of love is much appreciated!!!

Alameda:

My wife and I are now situated on 2 acres of good, fertile land that is just a quarter mile from a major river, which provides us with ample high quality water via our well. We have toyed with the idea of starting a nursery, but don't want to be tied down. It is relatively easy for me to propagate 500 roses in one season by simply sticking cuttings into the ground that has been rototilled and provided water through drip lines. I have been fortunate to have traveled the world as a Naval Officer on active and in the the Reserves for over 20 years, and as a plant breeder (tomatoes and rice) for 30 years. My wife, however, has not had the opportunity to travel that much, so we want to be able to travel when this pandemic is over. I am happy to share my collection of rose with others, especially those involved in propagating, so that others can share in the enjoyment of these treasures. If there are any vintage Austins that you are 'needing' send me an email; perhaps I can help.

I am currently rooting around 30 vintage Austin roses for the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden, which has apparently lost a number of these roses from their collection; in return, they have permitted me to take cuttings of some of these rare older Austins, that I don't presently have, so that I can get them for my collection. I will be sending many of these to Hummingbird Roses (and to Palatine Roses, if Rene will accept them) so that she can propagate them and make them available to others.

oursteelers,

So happy for you that you were able to order 'Cressida' from Palatine. I received an email from Palatine in October of this year, stating that they were going to publish a list of their vintage Austin rose inventory in mid January 2021. I am surprised that they are taking orders now, but, again, I am pleased that you were able to order it. Have you grown or seen it before? The flowers here are huge and fragrant with a flower type that is a bit 'disorganized', like an old tea rose. But the fragrance is strong and very unique. May it thrive in your garden and bring you much pleasure! Actually there is another important character in the saving of 'Cressida'. It was Canadian Rick Sauder, who was the one who provided cuttings of this rose, to John V. at Hortico Roses in Ontario, Canada. So if it wasn't for Rick (now a volunteer leader at the Summerland Ornamental Gardens in British Columbia, who is working on a vintage Austin rose display at this site) this rose most likely would have been lost forever.

Aaron,

Thanks for your comment. Actually, its not that difficult or time-consuming, to send a few cuttings to propagators, to help preserve this germplasm. In retirement, we can all do some of the things that we may have wanted to do when we were working and just couldn't find the time.

Hi,

I want budwood for all type of DA fragrance roses which can grow in very hot and dry climate in India.

Is it possible to send budwood with phytosanitary and country of origin certificates.

Do let me know your thoughts.

Thanks

This is a great way to spread the joy of RRD to our neighbors.

If you are referring to John distributing rare rose budwood to other areas and the risk of spreading disease. that is not going to happen. John is a very careful and knowledgeable plantsman. His career and his education were in plant science. He almost certainly knows much more about plant health and plant physiology than most anyone else on these forums. Perhaps Malcom Manners and one or two other excepted..

He has sent me rooted plants which are now growing in my garden in Canada and has more to be sent to me for planting in Summerland when the border reopens. The roses he has sent me have all been certified for export to Canada. The same can be said for the wood he has shared with Palatine. To the best of my knowledge and belief, there is no incidence of RRD in his area of California. The fact that he has on numerous occasions had plant material from his garden inspected and cleared for international and interstate shipment by the California Department of Agriculture speaks to the disease and pest free status of his home garden.

You are correct, if the average home gardener sends plant material willy nilly around to other areas and other gardens without thought, or inspection, then both disease and inspects can and will be spread. John is not someone who is going to do that.

For the record, my own career was with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency which is the Federal Authority in Canada responsible for phytosanitary certification and pest control and eradication amongst many other things. So I know whereof I speak.

Rick

100% agree with @rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a. I find the comment about RRD to be rude and inappropriate.

john_ca - It is indeed wonderful that you are able to continue "saving" these older roses from extinction.

My only trepidation with ordering these roses produced by Palatine is that they are grafted onto Multiflora root stock. My soil and tap water are both very alkaline and I have read that Multiflora root stock does not do well in alkaline conditions. Most of my roses are on Dr. Huey except for the few that are own root. I am amending with Cottonseed Meal and Sulfur to reduce the alkalinity a bit, but it is a constant thing. That said, I do have several Camellias and Azaleas that are doing fine.

If the "ca" in your name means that you are in California, do you grow the roses on Multiflora rootstock? If I were to get the roses on Multiflora would it be a good idea to amend the soil with an Acid Lover's planting mix? Would it be a constant battle that might be lost at any moment, or would it be something that is definitely worth trying?

Thank you so much for any advice...

BirdsLoveRoses, I'm in Santa Barbara, and my soil and water are both very alkaline. I've grown many scores of roses on Multiflora rootstock over the past 20+ years with great success. I've never treated them differently than any of my other roses on Huey or own-root.

I'm obviously not in So Cal, but I do have alkaline soil, and like Susan, I've never had trouble with multiflora rootstock. I do use Lilly Miller Organic Granular Fertilizer for acid loving plants on all my roses, most of which are grafted on Dr Huey. I do this as a sort of bonus for the roses. They all like it, and so do my perennials, annuals, and veggies. Diane

Hi BirdsLovesSoCalCoast,

I live in Stanislaus County in Central California, less than a quarter of a mile from the Stanislaus River. Our water and soil are probably neutral to slightly alkaline. We grow own-root roses, rose grafted onto Dr. Huey, and roses grafted onto Rosa multiflora. They ALL do very well here. The multiflora roses typically have thinner canes when you receive them, but they have monster root systems, which can be 18 inches long or longer. Those grafted on to Dr. Huey typically have much thicker canes and roots, but the roots are typically trimmed. This difference in the size of roots and canes between these 2 types of grafted roses, is due to the fact that the grafted multiflora roses from Canada are budded in the fall of year one and harvested in the fall of year two: so they only spend one year in the field. Typically those grafted on to Dr. Huey rootstock in the US, spend 2 years in the field.

If I had to choose between the 3 types of plants, I would choose own root, as they will never produce rootstock suckers; also, I have never had a problem with Rose Mosaic Virus on an own-root plant that I have purchased. Of course, if you root a plant from a virused plant, it will also be virused. Most rose varieties that I have grown, do fine on their own roots in our area But there are exceptions, such as Gingersnap and a now obscure Austin rose, Ellen.

My second choice would be those grafted onto Rosa multiflora, as they tend to be very vigorous and tend to produce less rootstock sucker than Dr. Huey-grafted plants. Also, I have never received a plant grafted onto R. multiflora that had RMV. I think that many of the growers graft the scion on to a R. multiflora seedling plants, which would make it highly unlikely to be infected with virus.

My last choice would be Dr. Huey, especially from companies that are selling them as bagged plants at places like drugstores and big box stores. Besides the sucker problem, these cheaper roses are sometimes produced by grafting onto rootstock contaminated with RMV. But if you buy plants from more reputable companies such as Weeks and Edmunds roses, you are more likely to get a healthy plant. Still, most of my Dr. Huey plants do grow quite well without problems.

Thank you Susan, Diane and John - It's great to know that I shouldn't have any problems with the multiflora rootstock! Now I really want to try some!

Happy Gardening!

How are the scents of Cressida and Lordly Oberon like .... compared to St. Cecilia, and Mary Magdalene? THANK YOU.

I have St. Cecilia and Mary Magdalene and I consider these 2 myrrh scents as best ever among my 140 fragrant own-root roses. Comte de Chambord is nice to perfume the entire room (same with Firefighter), but it's pure heaven to stick my nose into Mary Magdalene's bloom, even bottled Frankincense can't measure up. I hope to find more enchanting and elating scents like Mary M. and St. Cecilia. Thanks for any info. on the scents of Cressida and Lordly Oberon. Below white is Mary Magdalene bloom, it gets pinkish if fertilized with biochar:

Mary Magdalene is a constant bloomer as own-root & worth buying for the blooming power and health, mine is 11th-year-own-root:

Below St. Cecilia scent is more floral than myrrh, and it lasts 5+ days in the vase:

St. Cecilia is very small as own-root, and the blooming is one-fifth of Mary M. Long pause in between flushes due to more petals in St. Cecilia & also chlorosis & pic. taken when it was 1st-year-own-root.

Thank you in advance for any info. on the scents and growth habit of Cressida and Lordly Oberon.

I know this thread is old but just in case: I’m unable to find any Austin Roses on the Palatine site. Is there another way to find them?

Straw - your MM rose is fabulous!!! I find it stunning in your bouquet!! :)

http://www.combinedroselist.com/freedom-gardens.html

@Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley Nice to see you here! How have you been doing? I just think of you and your Paul Jerabek recently. Hope both of you are doing well.