Yes: 'New Dawn' is really too large-growing for frames of that size. You should be able to get the clematis to fit however.

Thanks for the advice. So should I just remove ALL FOUR New Dawn Roses altogether?

You could grow two New Dawns on that side of the house and plant one on the short side. I would train the New Dawn in the front to also go on the side of the house. However, Embothrium is correct and those trellises or not strong enough for New Dawn. Frankly, it would be better just to place two New Dawn on the sides of your house with different trellises that are slightly further from the side of your wall and train one to go towards the front. You could do this on both the East and West sides.

New Dawn is a beautiful rose; I have six of them. They grow horizontally and send out very long laterals during the growing season. Mine Bloom continuously as I deadhead all season long. I'm in zone 6 so I'm not sure how they do in zone 5. I cannot advise you on the clematis but I'm sure others will pipe in on that. Also, do not underestimate the work involved tying up the canes. New Dawn is very vigorous and thorny. For me this isn't a problem as I have it grown horizontally on low balustrades. This isn't to discourage you just to point out the issues you will be facing.

Thanks Vaporvac. Can you please clarify what kind of trellis is more appropriate for the New Dawn Roses? I plan to cover the West wall in treillage (and greens) as well. Thanks

I'll clarify in a bit when I have a moment if someone else doesn't before me. They're a lot of different choices that's why I want a bit of time to explain. However, I just wanted to say you have a very very cute house!

Below on the far left is my New Dawn, only two years old. It grew too fast for me to even put on a trellis.

Another consideration is how light pink and purple are going to look against the color of that brick.

Where do you live? If Z5 or below there’s a big difference in the size estimates.

I have grown The New Dawn in 2 gardens before this one, so I knew what it could do in a zone 8. I now have a zone 10 garden, so when I planted New Dawn here, I placed it hard up against the trunk of a fully grown, mature apricot tree.

Here it is now.

Here, it is out of the way. It's prickles are not a nuisance. The only pruning I might do, is to trim it back to the ends of the branches.

I have always loved it, so I had to find a place for it when I moved to this garden.

I don't know it's size in your zone, but it is a lusty, healthy, strong growing climber that will need more room than it would have on a little trellis.

Daisy

PS. I would not use trellis at all for New Dawn. Use vine eyes and galvanised wire directly onto the brickwork. Put in the vine eyes and wire all the way up and across the wall before moving the roses. There is nothing worse than trying to add to the height and/or width of the support after the roses have grown some way.

Just and FYI. New Dawn rose is at the limit of its hardiness in your Canadian zone 6 garden. I seriously doubt it will get huge in your garden.

Sherry

Sherry, I think she said she's in zone 5 so I'm assuming that's similar to American zone 5. I have no idea how she does end zone 5 so hopefully someone growing her in a more Northerly climate will respond. I am in zone 6 and New Dawn is tip Hardy and grows huge.

PS Daisy that is a vision. I have an extra rooting I might consider using in a similar way. Thank you for the photos.

Toronto is zone 6, so hardiness shouldn't be an issue.

Some things, to understand about New Dawn: first, it isn't a 2 dimensional rose, but definitely needs a 3 dimensional space. To keep it flat against a wall requires a LOT of pruning. Second, it continually grows throughout the growing season, so it needs continual pruning and tying up. Third, it requires deadheading to repeat well. So growing it far up vertically makes it much harder to do that task. Growing it horizontally works best.

It just doesn't sound like a good fit for what you want to do.

Yes, what is needed instead is a pillar style of rose with a comparatively short, narrow and vertical mode of growth such as 'Aloha' for instance. Or many climbing hybrid tea roses. But one that will be hardy there, of course. Maybe there is something in the Canadian Explorer series that would work.

As long as it reads well against the color of the brick there.

>Toronto is zone 6, so hardiness shouldn't be an issue<

Every time a location is mentioned as being in a particular zone it really needs to be specified which zoning system is being referred to.

Thanks everyone. If anything, our local Sheridan Nurseries told me Toronto is Zone 5 (USDA/ US rating) equivalent to Zone 6 in Canadian hardiness rating. Most nurseries here however almost always use the USDA system.

Regardless, it seems that the consensus is that New Dawn roses will just be too cumbersome and vigorous for the house / 4 trellises (24" x 10feet each).

Will leaving the two on the two "outer" side trellises still be a wrong decision (each ND plant to grow on 2 trellises) or should I just forget about ND altogether?

Is it wrong to leave all 4 NDs there but pruning them VERY HARD after they bloom and training all new growth EVERY YEAR not work?

Finally, should I just go with a Clematis.. OR TWO :-) on EACH trellis? Thanks

I vote for the last option. Plant one clematis in each position and then see how that goes. Maybe to the side of each trellis so if you decide you want to add a second climber to each spot later there is space for planting them.

LIV - I'm in zone 5 too and I have a lot of climbers, so you're right to ask for advice before you get too far in your plans and work too hard. We want you to enjoy your roses rather than get disappointed in your first planting, so that's why we're being discouraging about your original plan and encouraging other roses or combinations of where to plant what you have and what you could have. You can plant these NDs but I really wouldn't recommend in front of the house. You could probably prune very hard each year and keep New Dawn a modest size, but odds are you'd also be cutting off most of your chances for rebloom or even a first bloom if you're trying to rein it in. Roses tend to bloom best at their preferred size, and climbers are particularly notorious for not wanting to bloom much until they've spent some time at their height where they want to bloom. That's why we in cold zones want to plant tip-hardy roses that keep their canes after the winter so they can keep growing taller and putting out more laterals.

Any climbers will bloom better if you can tie the initial canes horizontally to allow them to put out canes growing up off that sideways cane (we call these laterals). If you don't want a couple of "powder puff" blooms on the end of a tall narrow climber, that's the kind of treatment you want to do for the rose. The narrow width of your trellis doesn't really allow much room for the canes to be bent sideways and as others have said if ND is happy in this spot it will actively and aggressively pull it off your house and attack you and your neighbors when they come to the door.

So here's your dilemma if you try to leave the NDs in the front of the house where you have them:

scenario 1 - like mine your NDs will not grow beyond knee high in 3-4 years and never bloom, eventually dying, so you're disappointed

scenario 2 - your NDs are happy with this spot in front of your house and grow to the size of anything like Oakley's or Daisy's, totally outgrowing this space and making you and your neighbors unhappy

scenario 3 - you vigorously and constantly prune back a happy ND to the point where it is now unhappy and puts out only leaves with no blooms

I'd opt for scenario 4, where you put them to the sides of your house where they can expand to their heart's content if they're happy, or they won't wreck your vision for the front of the house if you're unhappy. There's a circle off to the left of the original photo that could probably rein in one of the NDs, and there's (unnecessary?) grass beyond that on the side of the house that you really didn't want to mow, did you (smile)? You asked about the type of support that can hold a happy ND in our zones, and my suggestion would be something like the 8'x6' arch where I have a vigorous and aggressively happy Quadra (yes, that's all one rose):

If you find that after putting the NDs under an arch like this at the side of your house you end up with scenario 1 and the scrawny runts look ridiculous under the arch, that now becomes an excuse to buy more roses (something we all can help you do with glee). You won't know however if you have a happy ND for about 4 years, since that's how long it takes climbers to mature so be patient and let the set down roots for a while. Moving the roses now when you've just planted them won't set them back particularly but moving them next spring or the next when they start to overgrow their space may delay them maturing even longer

What I'd recommend is not putting a rose on the trellises next to the front door. Those are ideal spots for the Jackmanii clematis and that's a vigorous enough clematis to more than fill those trellis spots. Here's what Jackmanii can do if you let it spread out to its heart's content - this is the purple spread out all along the back side of a maybe 10' square cage for my blueberries (again this is one clematis plant):

You can contain Jackmanii more narrowly on your trellises but be prepared for a lot of foliage to rein in and encourage on the trellis. This is a different purple clem on the double shepherd's hook (swamped) plus a truly thuggish pink Princess Diana clem attacking a rose on the right.

So, if you put the clematis on the trellises by the door, and ND to the side or sides of your house, you now have trellises that are open on the far ends of your house. If you want a rose there, you want something that will naturally stay narrow. Embothrium's suggestion of Aloha is a great one, and mine is cane hardy for me in zone 5. It stays no wider than about 3' if it has something to climb or lean on, and I can get away with loosely attaching mine to another shepherd's hook rather than a trellis, but it would prefer something like a trellis I'm sure. Do be aware that roses need to be attached (like with pantyhose strips or those green velcro plant holds) as opposed to clematis that attach themselves to things. Here's Aloha fairly early in the summer before she has put out a lot of laterals - you can see I hooked her under the support and she's just now starting to bloom off the sides that are facing vertical. She'll pretty much hide the hook by the end of the season, but you can tell that she's relatively happy being tall and narrow.

Other hardy roses with similar narrow growth habits include Poseidon (a lavender) or Queen of Sweden (pink fluffy blooms) - neither of these are really climbers but they'll get to 6' or so in our zone and can either be attached to the trellis or climb in front of it. You'd have the option of putting the clematis on these side trellis panels too and then the tall narrow rose in front, and letting some of the tendrils of the clematis twine around the rose for the effect. Jackmanii is a vigorous enough clem to overwhelm a whole lot of climbing roses in our zones, so this might keep yours from being swamped. You can see in the clem photo previously that Scepter'd Isle (another relatively narrow growing rose) is totally being pulled off its usual 6' height by the clem and it's bending down to the height of the 3' A/C unit. The Canadian roses (like Quadra) could handle Jackmanii, but I don't know of any that climb that will stay narrow or mannerly enough for the spaces you have.

You might not be able to find the roses we discuss at average nurseries or other stores around town, but there are several nice Canadian mail order nurseries that would sell you these roses at $20 or so, which is quite reasonable and they have great quality plants with more choices. You'd want to wait till spring to plant these though, since it's not an ideal time to plant roses to have them put down a good root system. You're of course free to plant what you want where you want it and if you're happy it's not a wrong choice, but we're sharing some advice to help you avoid frustration if possible.

Cynthia

Based on my experience, you don’t want New Dawn anywhere near walkways, doorways, or other spots folks walk by because it is a vigorous grower with wicked thorns.