Gloss/sheen in paint colors comes from the pigment volume/resin ratio, not from colorants.

Even tho gloss/sheen does affect the way a color appears, it's more about the ratio of ingredients, not color attributes. Which is why one color in different gloss/sheen levels will look different but amazingly, miraculously the color of the different finishes always go together.

But some people can't get past the fact that they DO indeed look different.

I think it's a great, organic, layered look and adds an element of overall, very subtle dimension to the room.

And it's an easy solution to just use the same color on trim and walls, just in different finishes.

what I'd like to have is BM White Dove trim with white walls that truly has undertones of gray or even the grayest blue more than any other undertone. That's what I'm looking for!!!

Architectural paint colors don't have undertones.

And I know you've been reading blogs so that's why you think they do.

But they don't.

"Undertones" are just somebody's opinion of what they think a color looks like -- under whatever random quality of light they happen to be looking at it.

Which is why some of the opinions offered about White Dove missed the element of yellowness.

What you want is a white from a different hue family than White Dove.

It's tricky for sure.

Have you tried Oxford White?

I agree with Lori (as usual!) but you have to do what you have to do!

Good luck!

If you want almost white, you'll have better luck with a pale gray. Take a look at DE Foggy Day. Its a cool neutral. I have it in my master bedroom at 50%.

Regina Work, the nuance of colour is maddening and fascinating all in one. But at the end of the day,you have to decide what makes you happiest. Good Luck!

Ps-I rec'd Oxford White and Simply White,not Super White. See,that is one of the maddening parts...how close all the names are.

Listen to Lori, she knows what she's talking about and can back it up with science.

When I was looking for a soft white (creamy) for my kitchen cabinets I looked at BM Simple White, Cloud White, White Dove, and Mascarpone. In my bright, east-facing kitchen, Mascarpone was too yellow and White Dove too gray. It was a toss-up between SW and CW, and I chose Cloud White and still love it 6 years later. I found Simple White to be a close runner-up, slightly lighter and brighter but a warm feel.

If you prefer to lean a little gray, I don't know why White Dove wouldn't work for you.

I agree with the others though, if one color has too much or too little of something, don't futz with it. There's another color that's just right.

@Diana Biers, @ Lori Sawaya, @ Suzyq53 , @hollybar -thank you all so much!! You will love that I'm heading out now to the paint store to come home with a couple of choices!

Will let you all know how I make out and take final pics once done. Good news - the painters have arrived and said they have 3 days of sanding which was like being told you have 2 more hours till guests arrive when you thought they were about to ring the doorbell. Ha Ha.

Yeah I'm going back to the drawing board.

Ps-I rec'd Oxford White and Simply White,not Super White. See,that is one of the maddening parts...how close all the names are.

OMG. So true.

I thought I saw Oxford White somewhere but there's another thread about Oxford White too so I wasn't exactly sure where I saw it.

Here’s a question for you. Let’s say put it up as a wall color and I like it. Can I still keep my white dove trim?

Yeah.

And I can show you/tell you why. The answer why they go together is in the notation. Notation being hue, value and chroma.

Let's look at this again.

HUE - Yellow hue family and Green-Yellow hue families are next to each other. Which means Oxford **shouldn't** make White Dove look yellower.

VALUE/LRV - Oxford White is lighter and brighter than White Dove - not by much, but there's a smidge of contrast there. A good thing for what you say you want.

CHROMA - There's a big difference in Chroma between the two. White Dove has more. The chroma difference means one shouldn't make the other look dirty or dingy.

My guess is Oxford White will make White Dove look less yellow.

But that's an educated guess. That's not something the data spells out.

Regina, yes it was I who said to use the same on the walls and the trim. I say that because it's the simplest way to make sure that the colors are the same. If you have trouble with mixing whites, that's the easiest and best way to go. The difference in the sheen will add a bit of nuance to the color in the room.

However, Lori is a color expert, and if she gives you a color that would go with White Dove, using her knowledge, then I wouldn't dissuade you.

I say that because it's the simplest way to make sure that the colors are the same. If you have trouble with mixing whites, that's the easiest and best way to go. The difference in the sheen will add a bit of nuance to the color in the room.

Definitely the easier route if you like the look, it works for you.

@Lori A. Sawaya - testing out Farrow & Ball Wevet as we speak...fingers crossed

@ Lori A. Sawaya - well Wevet's out. Too White. Just put up Classic Gray at 50% which the guy at Ben Moore was laughing at me with my test $8 can. Said no way will you get a true color out of this sucker. Nice. Anyway it's up, looks creamier than White Dove but seems to look close to it without the yellow. So far so good.

@Lori A. Sawaya - weirdly enough, I had used BM Horizon up in a bathroom. It's glorious with my White Dove. Love going in there. Have the big chip out on my island quartzite and it looks amazing with that. This paint job is gonna kill me, but I'm determined to get it right this time.

ust put up Classic Gray at 50% which the guy at Ben Moore was laughing at me with my test $8 can. Said no way will you get a true color out of this sucker. Nice

At least he was honest with you.

A lot of paint store staff will let people ask for ridiculous tweaking endlessly whether what they're asking for is impossible or whether a similar color already exists and is steps away in the display. Because whatever you ask for, you're paying for so they don't care - keep on tweaking! #chaching

Now, hopefully, they can scale the 50% Classic Gray mix up into gallons so it's the same as the $8 tester.

As I said................. what WTH I know? lol

I can get paint chosen, mixed, , delivered into the house and on walls, in less time than it takes to read these threads.

Your best friend is a sheet of white paper or a clean white framing mat board and the color in debate next to it.. It looks a bit yellowy...... you see a faint, faint pink in it.....it has a sallow green cast?...it turns peachy...... dismal.....it stinks.

Believe your eyes.. It's there. It will be magnified on four walls. Science, yes eyes yes, whatever. It is there and it is either what you want to see or.....it "ain't"

I love the light bulb discussion as half my clients leave every bloody gorgeous lamp.........unlit, or will chop in the dark before they will turn on the dang lights. So it needs to look good with or without the aid of man and prior to the trip to emergency dripping blood.

@Jan Moyer - ha ha ha ha ha! I love that last post. Well there's a reason all of you are the experts and the rest of us who are not spend way too much $ on little paint cans, testing out colors on walls, looking at Houzz photo's and hoping we can somehow make our home look like our latest inspiration photo from some decorator who lives and works in California but we live in Massachusetts!

I have a decorator on this project. Already she's saved me from making some pretty costly mistakes. So i am grateful. She has a full time job doing it so she's worked with me on a small basis but the money spent with her has been well worth it overall. It was her suggestion that I consider going as light as I possibly could go, and she did recommend we change out from White Dove to another brighter white, but she supported me keeping it and I'm glad I did as I absolutely love it.

It would have been so much easier to give her the task of picking my color.? but she's busy at her 'real' job and I guess the education of it all has been an exercise I'm glad I've taken.

Latest update: Ben Moore Classic Gray at 50% less looks ALMOST like BM white dove wall color. Almost. It was great. It was my color. Till I woke up with the nagging idea that maybe Classic Gray at 75% would be better. Talk about coming full circle. And then I was thinking so why did I give up on BM Calm so quickly now that I"m back on the Classic Gray band wagon.

Do you see what's happening here? I totally should have paid my decorator friend to pick the color and save me all these brain cells. LOL! I'm sure the guys at the paint store think I'm a weirdo, but this interior paint job is costing me a ton and I've made a few paint color mistakes over the years that repainting has added to the cost so this time I don't want any surprises.

That is stunning, Regina! Love the grasscloth and the dark floors--are they natural stone or porcelain/ceramic tile?

And for the record, the trim doesn't read very yellow on my monitor! Just looks yummy!

Wow! Yours goes sideways. Mine goes vertical.

Beautiful!

did you end up painting White dove walls?

Wow this is a great thread, so informative! Thanks everyone.

Hi Everyone, I ended up sticking with the White Dove for my trim. I am thrilled with my decision. I renovated my first and second floors (the 3rd floor is just being started) and wanted a cleaner coastal look. In the end I kept the White Dove and could not be happier. For my walls I used Ben Moore OC-23 cut down to 75% in the main rooms but reduced it further in my kitchen only to 50%. Looks great!

Funny that I found this thread! We had a very similar experience with white dove. Has caused quite a bit of headache and $$$. We had to paint our brand new custom inset cabinets in our custom new build as well! Not fun, however the

” yellow “ effect was something I never saw coming. Such a bummer. We ened up painting all cabinets, BM decorators white; they turned out so beautiful. And, thank goodness the yellow undertone was gone! All of our walls were also white dove on some areas. I spent weeks going to BM getting every white Sample. Finally, one day I saw Kate Marker interiors post on her instagram some beautiful pictures of rooms in BM classic grey. I realized in the comments she wrote some of the walls she‘d Paint at 50% or 75% BM classic grey. So, I decided to give in a try and am I so pleased with the result. My whole house has different levels of the grey now with Chantilly Lace Trim. We absolutely love it. I was so grateful Kate Marker was so generous and kind to personally email her recommendations as well. I can so relate to what you have endured with the painting experience. Whites are so hard!! I feel like I know each and every one now by heart. For us White Dove was way too yellow undertone - especially with the western exposure. Chantilly has been very beautiful as well, so fresh looking. Congrats on having your paint finished. I can’t wait to finish soon!

Regina and genuity - could you post photos of the classic gray at 50% and 75%? I am dealing with this issue now and painters are coming on Monday. Thanks!

@Regina Work Is there anyway you could post some pics of Classic Gray at 50% and 75%? My last home was painted Classic Gray and it looked so beautiful. I tried it in my new house and it looks peach colored. Lighting makes such a difference. I have spent so much on paint samples that I hate to purchase 2 more but I'm really tempted to try Classic Gray again but at a reduced strength. It would be so helpful (and would save money) to see how it looks.

This is a great thread on White Dove. I already have it as a trim in my home and we are getting ready for a kitchen remodel but I wanted something more crisp. I almost gave in to WD for kitchen cabinets but after reading this thread the afternoon sun started streaming in and I realized that wow, WD has more yellow than I care to see in my kitchen cabinets. But it's great to know that it will pair well with BM Oxford White.

ksd4423, have you finished your kitchen yet? Which color white did you choose for your cabinets? Any pictures? Thanks so much!

This thread reflects my own recent experience--same issue with White Dove looking too yellow. I guess it's the western exposure. And I'm just trying Classic Gray on a posterboard and it looks kinda peachy and thus not what I'm looking for. Jennifer B I'm wondering if you ended up using the Classic Gray lightened, or did you go with something else?

my living room with white dove and classic gray at 50%. I have loved it now for 2 years. AT the moment I'm about to change out this art for a bigger wider picture and I cannot wait for it to arrive. I do think that White Dove can change with the light, size of the room, and let's be honest, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So you have to pick which one speaks to you

I AM SO GLAD YOU POSTED THIS!!!! going through this paint nightmare right now. Thank you!

I’m going similar dilemma. I have honey oak floors and want to change the wall paint colors. Off I do white dove it may look more yellow. I read that you mixed white dove and classic gray - how do you do that??

Alternatively would simply white be better. I like the classic white walls but not too yellow.

White Dove could look less yellow in your home depending on the light, and the contrast with the honey oak.

Are your walls in need of a paint job? I ask because Simply White could look exactly the same as your walls do now, so it wouldn't be worth it unless they really need a new coat of paint.

Mixing colors is risky--you really don't know what you will get and how that color will look in your room. If you think White Dove is too yellow, then try another white that has less yellow. China White always seemed grayish to me, but Ben Moore has thousands of colors--I'm sure you could find one that would work.

Thank you! I don’t know what the color name as the previous owners painted it. The current wall color is light blue and I don’t like it. The house faces north and it doesn’t look that bright with this color. So that’s why I am looking to change the wall color to something more bright and fresh.

I checked these paints and going crazy which ones to pick:

1. BM - white dove (now won’t try as it has yellow tone), simply white (will try), moonlight white (will try), Chantilly (but that looks too bright, so not keen)
2. SW - alabaster (will try)

Having a little bit of yellow undertone is ok. I don’t like the blue undertone or green undertone to the walls.

BM White dove looked too yellow in our house and I ended up using SW Pure White. It’s really soft (LRV 84) and completely white. I prefer soft lighting so that helps keep the walls from looking too stark. That said, the foyer which faces more north looks too cold sometimes. But overall pure white is a nice and simple, soft white.

I went through an all-consuming, trying-all-whites craze about a year or so ago, in a house we bought where everything was 90s yellow when we moved in. I tried so. many. white. paint colors! …as well as classic gray which looked peachy in our west-facing room even at lower %. At the end of the day, I went with SW Pure white in our first floor rooms with same trim. It’s a very soft and innocuous white especially w the softer lighting and art on the walls. In the kitchen, which has medium brown wood cabinets and beige-family (~Tuscan) backsplash and countertops, we used SW Alabaster which is nice—looks like a very very light beige but not the lime-y yellow like the white dove looked in our living room. One thing I’d love to try is a mix of SW alabaster and pure white—like adding a little bit of Alabaster to pure white to give it a little more creaminess.
The other white color I really love is BM simply white-it does have yellow undertones but it’s very bright which makes it ok somehow. I used simply white in our basement room to brighten it up- it’s a bright and cheerful white. If we ever are able to paint our bedroom (still yellow!!) I would try simply white or possibly SW Silver strand (a lovely, light green-blue gray).
If that is your space with the double high ceilings(?) I might try simply white, or you could try SW Alabaster, or maybe the SW alabaster- pure white mix—I’d love to know if anyone has tried that.

It was difficult to figure out what color was on your walls, but I agree that light blue is probably not doing the space any good. You might try Snowfall White--I used it on the trim in my kitchen and it's a very nice white, not yellow looking at all.

BM White Dove definitely leans yellow on the walls of my house. All my trim, doors, crown and most cabinets are painted in BM Chantilly Lace. The warmer White Dove works with my furniture (wood and upholstered) and my art.

The first color I used was BM Winds Breath (darker color on the top left), but I found it too dark and yellow, so I repainted with BM White Dove.

Are you planning on painting the doors or any trim?

If not you need to find a white that doesn't clash with the other whites that are already in the home.

That is often the most difficult part - picking a white that works with the white that is already in the space.

If painting everything start with the bundle from Samplize of warm whites. It will give you a good base to say what looks good to you in your home.

https://samplize.com/products/warm-whites

They will all look yellow next to your blue paint - sample next to your flooring with something between the sample and the wall color. (Large poster board).

OH BOY, I'm really having second thoughts about BM White Dove for cabinets in full kitchen reno....the entire length (48') of fam room, kitchen has picture windows, facing south/west......it seems the consensus is that WD will appear more yellow that I would think????? Cabinets were (still have a day or 2) going to be painted WD, but now I am thinking that will not be a great choice bc of it appearing yellow.......flooring is Karndean Spanish Cherry......GE Cafe appliances.......please help me avert disaster!!! 😱😱😱

WD is not my favorite white, but many do love it. First you need to test some whites with your other finishes - floor/counter and backsplash. You also need to consider the trim color that you are using in the rest of your house. Do you have white trim? What color is the current trim color? Whites often do not play well with other whites.

When you have picked the color have to have a sample painted with whatever paint the cabinet painter is using. Their color matches are not always perfect, so better to find out before they paint all your cabinets.

Many people who have used White Dove have re-painted with Simply White. It still has some yellow undertones, but never looks dingy. WD can go dingy.

Personally, my favorite is a color match that BM stores mix for me.

Match of Devine Color™ V0101W Icing. The difference between Simply White and Icing is that Icing leans just a bit more toward the orange yellow then the green yellows. I sometimes detect a touch of green (Chartreuse) in Simply White.

Computers do a lousy job depicting whites, but this is an analysis of several of the whites that were discussed in this chain.

The LCH designations are L - how light the color is, C - Chroma - how colorful or gray the color is and H- Hue - where the color falls on the color wheel. Yellow range is 72-105 Yellow green is 105-130

As you go down in chroma and the colors get closer to gray we see it as a blue or cool undertone (Chantilly Lace, Decorators White)

I already had all trim White Dove and liked ok. Decided on walls White Dove. Looks pretty after about 3 pm and night with lights. However, in early morning till the 2 or 3 it looks light blue on the longest wall and a little elsewhere. Just not enough natural light until afternoon.
I cannot justify having it painted again. But I was wondering if a different finish on that one wall would make a difference or would that be noticeable. It says BM Aura Matte on can.

Also, suggestions on paint color in the adjoining master and bath that would work with WD in the foyer/living room area. It’s 4 now and paint really pretty. IMO. I use warm white bulbs in 2700k.

Thank you

If I painted the Classic Grey at 50% will it look any color other than grey since it is same orientation as the White Dove living room. I don’t want blue to show up again.

I had thought of White Duck yellow in it or Ballet White beige in it and frankly I liked them on a board, but after having white they look dingy in My eye. Sorry to write again. Thank you if for maybe thinking different way for me to think.

White without light is not white. It needs light in order to have light to reflect off of it.

It isn't the yellow in White Dove that you are disliking, you are liking White Dove when you shine yellow light on it, but disliking when it doesn't have light shining on it.

To combat the shadows you need more color or you need to add more light.

A matte sheen reflects less light than an eggshell or shinier sheen, but I wouldn't use different sheens on different walls in the same room

Sometimes you need to test multiple colors to get one that looks good everywhere in the room and with everything in your rooms.

Here are some ideas for north facing rooms (cooler grayer light) that may help you find a good wall color if you want to replace the WD with something you like better.

https://www.kylieminteriors.ca/the-best-most-popular-benjamin-moore-paint-colors-north-facing-northern-exposure-rooms/

If you just want something for the master that will work with the WD in the living room do yourself a favor and pick a color instead of trying to get another white to work.

Usually you would want to pick a color from your bedding or area rug.

I could spend hours reading comments about off-white paint. Silly me, I read an NYT article and the person raved on about Decorator's White OC-149. I ordered five samplize sheets (off-white colors), bought the Decorator's White sample pot and painted test squares. Went ahead and painted an 8' long hallway and two other walls before running out of paint. Sad to say that in the days that followed I was overcome by the blue-purple/sterile look of the paint.

This experience was followed by a trip to the paint store where the on-site designer picked out five choices for me. I chose two, bought sample pots and painted samples on poster board - neither sample worked out, too dark for my place. Eliminated the other two choices - even darker - which left White Dove OC-17.

At this point I was in the hole for approx $150, with four walls needing a second coat of paint. I went to the dentist and my blood pressure was higher than normal, probably due to the stress of not only painting over my mistake, but also the living, kitchen, bathroom and bedroom. I'd reached an impasse and I quickly realized nothing would get painted if I didn't make a DECISION.

I bought a gallon of White Dove and pressed ahead. Hallway and two walls have been repainted. Three door trims have been painted. I'm approx 1/3 into the project (sheesh). A couple of days ago my son pointed out I have white (daylight) bulbs in the small alcove and a yellower light in the hallway. White Dove appears to be creamy-white in the hallway, and gray-white in the alcove!

@ Rpj7256 - If white is seen as white because almost all the light that hits the surface is reflected off the surface and back to you doesn't it make sense that the color of the light is going to impact what color you see?