Thanks! I'll look for those rollers! I have a 3" roller handle - will putting those 4.5" rollers on it be problematic? Or should I just but a 4.5" roller handle? Also, wondering if I should buy two brushes versus one. I'm assuming you can rinse off the primer and reuse the same brush for the paint? Getting two my wife and I could double up and paint at the same time. Same thing with the rollers I suppose. BTW: are 2" Nylon-polyester brushes OK in conjunction with using the rollers? We'll need the brushes/rollers for the frames, for sure.

wiscokid, I've read BIN is great stuff but tricky to apply with a brush/roller. Spraying tends to be easier for that.... problem is, I'm not setup for a sprayer at the moment. Was planning to brush/roll.

I just finished painting my kitchen cabinets a month ago with BM Advance. After degreasing, deglossing & lightly sanding (tack cloth after sanding), I rolled the boxes with BIN 123 Primer Plus (1 coat) using a low nap roller and then sanded them lightly, after which I used a tack cloth. I used both a good brush (Purdy - Wooster) and the same type roller to apply the Advance paint (2 coats).

I used a Homeright HVLP sprayer to apply the primer & paint to the doors, following the above procedure and the cabinets came out very well! Also, I painted some bathroom cabinets last year with the Stix Primer & BM Advance and they also came out well and still look good.

Preparation is the key along with luckyblueeye's advice of not over brushing, rolling, or putting too thick a coat of the Advance paint. Good luck!

I used the BIN shellac and found it to work really well. Now, here is what I did test and did not like: BM Fresh Start, Stix and Coverstain 123. For my old cabinets that could have been contaminated with silicon polish, wax or something, I knew the BIN would seal it better than the others. Now despite what you hear the smell is not going to drive you crazy if you use it in open ventilation. It sands so smoothly after drying very quickly. It provides a great base. I did not have the guts to spray it as that would have required a heavy-duty respirator but we did spray the doors with the Advance. I put on two lights coats of the BIN by roller. Don't be freaked by how quick it dries. It also will look splotchy. Your top coat will even it all out.

And I sanded, sanded and sanded again. Hate it, but gotta do it.

Test, test and test again on a practice door. Don't have one? Go to Habitat for Humanity and pick a few up.

Advance is a tricky paint to learn. Again practice. And time to cure. Don't rush it.

I went through the same dilemma with the sames white colors. At one point the debate became silly for me. They are both a very clean, bright white. Almost impossible to tell the difference so if that is what you are after you are not going to go wrong with either. Make sure your other finishes play nice with such a cool white.

Okay after all that here is the answer to the question that you did not pose: Would you do it again if you painted your cabinets? Me, the answer is easy: NO! Sorry to say but it took a year out of my life between testing, prepping, making mistakes, family issues.

Check out Chess's kitchen as she also used the Advance and BIN products. She is very happy with how they turned out.

LOL thanks Aurora! So you'd hire someone to repaint due to the amount of labor I'm assuming :) That could get cost-prohibitive for us - I think DIYing is viable as long as we don't rush. But yea, the kitchen is going to be a mess for sure. We're going to have to do much of the painting in the garage.

Why didn't you like the Stix btw? As far as the BIN, how did you prep your cabinets for that? Did you completely degrease and strip them with TSP/TSP-Substitute, liquid sander/deglosser AND sanding?

If you don’t do the weeks of proper cleaning, sanding, and priming, you waste the effort for everything. You won’t get good results. And no matter what consumer brand house paint you use, and Advance is OK, it still will not be as durable as professionally sprayed conversion varnish.

Its about Time, or Money. You have to invest one or the other. If you don’t have 7-9K to pay for a pro conversion varnish, you’d better have the 6 months of nights and weekends to do what you can DIY.

Or, don’t go down that road at all. Wood cabinets are trending high in popularity once again. Go with the flow.

JPLee, part of the problem is my personality. I hate making mistakes and will analyze a situation to death. Hence, the testing of everything. But I have learned a LOT!

I disliked the Stix because it was thick and difficult to work with. The Bin Shellac sanded like a charm as I wanted as smooth of a surface as possible.

In terms of prep, I cleaned with Krud Kutter. I was tempted to use the liquid sander but a call to Benjamin Moore customer service helped me change my mind on that. Those help lines are staffed by a lot of former pros (no just a counter sales person) and I pick their brains. He did not think it would be a good idea as it can leave a soft residue behind and he was fearful the Advance would not adhere properly. So hand sanding it was.

Now the mistake I made was not sanding in between coats of Advance (but I did sand between coats of BIN). I don't know why I failed to do this, but regretted it. The finish would have even looked better.

Can I ask how old your kitchen is? My cabinets were 40 years old. I did not feel guilty about giving them a new life for a few years. If we stay in this house we hope to do a full gut remodel in 5 to 7 years. Now when I see people here on Houzz wanting to paint over cabinets less than 10 years old just because they are not considered "current" it upsets me.

You are ahead of the game by doing your research. Too many people just forge ahead without doing their due diligence.

Aurora, good to know about Stix. You now have me reconsidering and going with BIN (I seem to keep flip-flopping between these). The quick drying time freaks me out but we'll see. Yea I saw Klean Strip TSP Substitute suggested somewhere, as well as Simple Green even.

The kitchen hasn't been updated since the condo was built in 1989/1990 - everything is the original (besides the countertop and appliances).

It's definitely time for a change :)

Jplee, you may not want to hear this but I find your cabinets retro cool.

But I see a big problem here.. You have a lot of ridges and the "pulls" on your doors/drawers are "raised" so to speak. You must be very careful when painting because it will drip in this circumstance. This will not be an easy DIY job even with a paint sprayer. If you do spray, it is best to thin the Advance. Unless you have a really good sprayer, you have to thin a lot. The thinner the paint, the more drips. You will have a battle here.

Second, you mention your counters are newer. But they are on the warm side and the bright white paint you are considering may not look the best with them.

Unfortunately, you tested on the front of the door so now something must be done. Have you considered painting only the bases and ordering new doors from Barker or Scherr's?

Aurora, when you talk about dripping, are you saying that in the context of painting everything *as is* in the picture where we would be leaving the cabinets up and painting them vertically? We are planning to take down all the doors/drawers and hardware and paint them laying flat. Will the dripping still be an issue there?

The counters are actually "newer" in the sense that the original owners had them installed but this was probably early 2000s? What color(s) would be better with the countertops we have? The white we're going with, Super White, is has slightly greyish undertones to it.

Yea, now that the sample paints are on, we're going to have to take those off or something. I suppose if we wanted to keep the wood look, I could just re-stain and varnish again?

I haven't looked at or considered new doors but have thought about it in the past.

BTW: I contacted Zinsser to inquire more about Advanced - the representative was saying that all I need to do is clean the cabinets/doors/drawers really well with TSP substitute, Simple Green or ammonia/water (if there's not that much grime) and that I could apply the BIN Advanced directly over the existing varnish without sanding at all. And that no sanding is necessary between coats either (though, I thought the purpose of sanding between coats was to not only provide additional adhesion but to make sure everything is 'level'?). I assume she was basing her recommendation though on the supposed fact that BIN Advanced will adhere to *anything*

FWIW - Zinsser is made by Rustoleum, Advance is made by Benjamin Moore. Not the same companies.

It's fun to use a good brush. Here.

wiscokid - sorry, I failed to mention that as I was researching Zinsser BIN more, I came across a newer product called "BIN Advanced" which is their synthetic shellac. Confusing that it nearly shares the same name as Benjamin Moore Advance lol.

Got it.

BIN Advanced is the synthetic shellac. It's not the real BIN. I have used it and it seems to work fine, but it's not the real deal. I agree the ridges in the doors shouldn't be a problem if you are taking the doors off and laying them flat. Lots of primer manufacturers are saying that you do not need to sand, yet we read all the time on these forums and others about people experiencing paint failure due to poor prep. So, I still sand. I sand because I still want to do everything I can to get the paint to adhere long term. As a rule, paint just sticks better to dull surfaces than shiny ones. The only time I sand in between coats of finish is if the surfaces are rough. I check them and if it's smooth, I don't sand. Usually I just spot sand the rough areas before applying the next coat. The one good thing about painting cabinets that are varnished is that they usually are pretty smooth before you begin. All you are doing is sanding them to dull the sheen. This is completely different from painting unfinished wood because the primer will cause the grain to raise and this will need to be sanded smooth before topcoating.

Thanks paintguy22 - so it sounds like you still recommend the plain ole BIN then? Yea, my gut feeling from what everyone says who actually applies the stuff is that sanding is the way to go. So in the case of the cabinets I have, I'm assuming to clean them well as advised but then go over them with 150-180 grit sandpaper to "dull the sheen" before moving on to apply regular BIN?

Yes, that sounds good. I actually like the 3M medium grit sanding sponges for cabinet sanding though I do have some 150 grit paper on hand as well.

What does "medium" translate to in terms of number? 150 roughly? BTW: for BIN does the brush and roller type make a big difference? Can I just use cheapo throwaway brushes/rollers? I've heard the cleanup is a pain and even if you do a really thorough job with cleaning [nicer] brushes and rollers they still won't be the same after (so I read several people suggesting that you might as well use a cheap brush and or roller at that point)

A cleaned Alpha is still better than a new cheap brush. Rollers can be wrapped in Saran and put in the frig. Then replaced.

I used regular BIN, BM Advance mixed to Sherwin Williams Shell White, removed doors and hardware, primered & painted bases first, then primered all the doors and drawers and then painted them. Ignore the walls and backsplash, not done yet (walls will be SW Amazing Gray, haven't decided on backsplash). These are 1989 honey oak cabinets.

Looking good! The countertop looks very similar to mine. I like the way yours turned out! I was thinking a grey backsplash/wall as well!

Jplee, if Paintguy thinks laying them flat will help prevent drips then I find that reassuring. No matter what don't practice on the front side when spraying. Do all the backs first as practice.

But anyone who tells you that no primer is necessary is wrong even if they are from BM. The regular BIN is what you want here.

Good luck and post after pictures!

Thanks Aurora. Nobody has told me "no primer is necessary" yet lol! Guess I'll be getting regular BIN at this point. Hopefully 2 quarts of it is enough (this is for 80sq ft~ from what I measured)

You need denatured alcohol to clean your brushes and rollers when you use the actual shellac based BIN. I use the 4" roller covers and throw them away after priming since it's just not worth it to clean. The brushes you can clean, but if you buy a cheap one that you just plan on throwing away, just don't go too cheap or the bristles will be falling out and you might have a problem with brushmarks. The medium grit sanding sponges are probably around 100 grit but the fine grit sanding blocks are pretty useless so that's why I get the mediums.

I picked up some Wooster roller kits with the Pro Doo-Z 4.5" rollers. Also includes a 2" silver tip brush and the roller frame and tray. It was less than $6 for each on Amazon so I just got two. Seems like a steal of a price. For the roller covers is it OK to go cheap with those on the primer and get some from Harbor Freight (https://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-six-4-inch-mini-paint-roller-covers-97810.html)? And what kind of 'cheap' disposable brushes would you recommend in this case - HF okay (https://www.harborfreight.com/quickview/index/index/id/6559 and https://www.harborfreight.com/2-inch-sash-brush-67009.html)? I also got a shortcut 2.5" brush.

Paintguy, I use ammonia to clean the BIN off brushes and paint trays. I mix in a little water. Much cheaper than denatured alcohol. It works great. To me, the ammonia is a worse smell than the BIN.

The silver tips are about the cheapest brush I would ever use. The roller covers should never be cheap because they may shed and when they do, they leave behind little lint fibers that are really hard to get off and you may not even see until the shiny paint is on and you shine a light on it.

Cool. So I'll reserve the silver tips to do the primer and use the Pro Doo-Zs for that as well as the paint. I did get the Jumbo Super Twist rolls that luckyblueeye suggested as well, although the representative I spoke with at Wooster was shocked/surprised that someone actually used that product with success on cabinets :) How do you like the shortcut and soft-tip brushes? Or should I 'splurge' on an Alpha 2.5"?

I don't think I have ever tried the Alpha. My go-to brushes from Wooster are the 2.5 inch extra firm lindbecks.

Forgot to mention: I read a tip about using the tiny paper cups to lay the doors on (3.5 oz like you'd use in the bathroom). I didn't have enough room to do all the doors at once, so i did them in batches. Spread tarps in the living room and bedroom, laid out cups, did the actual work up on sawhorses/plywood, then transferred to the tarps/cups to dry. Assembly line!!! The BIN dries pretty quick, so I did one side of the doors, let dry, sanded, repeated, then did the other side. I primed all the doors before I started the painting so I didn't have to clean brushes/rollers until Sunday afternoon (this is a vacation place so I was only working weekends).

The advance takes 24 hrs to dry between coats, so that took me a lot longer to finish than the priming. I've got a few ding spots to touch up that I will get to at some point. Might not be a professional finish, but it's good enough for my old beach condo. :)

Oh, I used white high-density foam rollers for the BIN and microfiber rollers for the Advance. I used a short angled brush in the grooved areas. I didn't bother trying to clean the foam ones w/ BIN. Well, I did one, and it was a mess; way easier to toss them as they didn't cost very much anyway.

With the texture that those doors have, you need to be extra vigilant about sanding properly. I would not try to brush them personally, but if you must, use an angled sash brush to be sure that you get into those grooves. They are going to make a brushed job be a heck of a lot harder than a sprayed job. I’d suggest looking on Craigslist or Next Door for someone selling a used sprayer.

What do you guys recommend as far as cleaners? TSP Substitute? Simple Green? Something else?

And it seems the consensus is to hand-sand and not use a liquid sander/deglosser?

You can buy real TSP on Amazon.

Jplee3, those roller covers were recommended by Benjamin Moore store years ago. They worked for me, so I have been loyal to them ever since :) Be sure to test on the back side of your cabinets and just leave the door alone even if doesn't look perfect...the paint will level like magic.

I have never had any luck with liquid deglossers etc... I always still feel like I need to sand AFTER it, so what's the point.

Seems like the liquid deglossers 'expedite' the sanding process - I've heard from someone else who prefers using them and supplementing with hand sanding; presumably because it saves time vs hand sanding 100%...?

Dirtex is a good pre-paint cleaner. You don't want to use real TSP since flood rinsing is required.

Alpha brushes are a pleasure. Maybe 2 guys will give em a try. Not for primer.

I used TSP substitute, no-rinse accdg to the direction, but I still rinsed the cabinet doors/drawers. Just a quick wipe down. I also used liquid sander and palm sander and hand-sand the nooks and crannies. My husband sprayed the Zinsser BIN for the doors and drawers, while I used Wooster roller for the cabinet frame, and worked like a charm. And they sanded really smooth! The prep work took forever. I would go to the garage and sand a few hours a day, though not every day. It took us (mostly me) 3 months to finish the kitchen cabinets. I'm kinda slow-poke ;)

We have oak cabinets that was painted espresso and they (previous owner/flippers) didn't do a good job prepping them. The paint was peeling off in big chunks so we really have to sand them to almost bare wood.

One thing that slowed me down was applying grain filler to the oak grain coz I don't want the grains to show. I timed myself- 40 minutes per one upper cabinet door. Ugh! And it looks good, though in some angle and lighting, I could still see some faint grain showing through. But, eh, what can I do? It's done.

And, like the poster above, if we need to do another kitchen cabinet project, I'll save money so I don't have to do it again. Maybe bathroom cabinets, but not the kitchen. Oh, no.

For those of you saying you wouldn't do this again - how big are your kitchens? For us this is 80sq ft of cabinetry - is that considered a lot?

The grain filler has me wondering if we need to use that or not. My understanding was that the primer is supposed to cover all that up...?

I think I may try Simple Green to clean the cabinets first. Mostly because I'm not into breathing in toxic fumes especially with kids around. Then I'll consider whether or not I want to use a liquid sander to supplement things. I know that stuff can be pretty nasty which is why I'm so hesitant about it.

You only have to use grain filler if you don't like seeing the grain. It's a personal preference type of thing. Oak is unique in that the grain is so heavy, it will still be visible through the paint even though the paint will fill in the pores of the wood. If you want it perfectly smooth like maple or pine, you need to use a grain filler. To me, painted oak looks fine.

" I've read BIN is great stuff but tricky to apply with a brush/roller."

You've read the wrong thing. BIN is so easy a child could paint it on. Very thin, sands to powder - it's a fabulous primer. Goes on easy with a brush.

My cabs were knotty pine, I had no option but to use BIN, and it did the trick. I used Advance paint, no wood grain shows through. Use several thin coats for the best results. I used a brush - no need to spray.

TSP substitute works great - no rinsing needed.

I also used a deglosser. Deglossers are NOT a subsitute for sanding - don't fall for that nonsense. Clean/sand FIRST, then wipe down, and apply the deglosser. Certainly you don't sand after (don't know why anyone would think that!). It just provides more adhesion for paint.

Can't emphasize how important the sanding is. Prep is EVERYTHING for a good paint job. It's a lot of work, but totally worth it.

Chess-yeah that's me, you said: "Clean/sand/prime/sand FIRST, then wipe down, and apply the deglosser" - so you're saying I should be priming and THEN apply the deglosser after? I thought you wanted to apply deglosser/liquid sander *before* you start priming anything...?

BTW: the cans of Zinsser BIN I saw today at the store all had some drops of what appears to be the primer around the inside lip of the edges; as if they had been opened. The store employee assured me that this is "normal" and that primer probably dripped on the edges of the can while they were filling them in the factory. There were three cans left on the shelf and *all* of them had the primer drips around the edges like shown in these pictures:

Is this normal?

Yes, I wouldn't worry about that small amount of primer in the lip of the cans.

Chess-yeah that's me, you said: "Clean/sand/prime/sand FIRST, then wipe down, and apply the deglosser" - so you're saying I should be priming and THEN apply the deglosser after? I thought you wanted to apply deglosser/liquid sander *before* you start priming anything...?

Yes yes - OMG I was tired last night!!! Definitely sand/degloss, THEN prime. I corrected my post, above.

SHEESH!

luckyblueeye

I have never had any luck with liquid deglossers etc... I always still feel like I need to sand AFTER it, so what's the point.

You apply deglosser AFTER sanding. It does not truly replace sanding - that "liquid sander" term is very misleading. It is simply a chemical dulling agent to help the paint adhere to a painted surface. It does not remove any paint or surface bumps/imperfections. If you have a smooth finished surface - no imperfections - you could probably get away with just using deglosser. I had stained varnished pine cabinets - plenty of surface imperfections, and so many varnish drips that I never even knew were there until I sanded (that's a huge plus for stained/varnished wood - it hides a multitude of sins!). So in my situation, sanding was absolutely required.

lol thanks. Yea I thought it was weird when I saw "prime" before applying deglosser :) Good to know your process with deglossing/liquid sanding. I guess if you want to be extra thorough, it's a good idea just to do all that in the prep process. Seems like it may make things 'easier' in the sense of removing all the existing stuff but the fumes are off-putting. Guess that's why I got those N95 masks w/ vents though :)

You know, I never had any problem with the deglosser as far as fumes - I really didn't notice anything. But, the BIN, in close areas, absolutely made me purchase a good mask!! Definitely a worthwhile purchase. :-)