My hummers seem to like my bright red Binary Giants

Do hummers actually stick their long tongues into those tiny starfish, or are they just lapping up all the small insects on the zinnia flowers? Of course they are always attracted to anything red, so they always investigate, but can they truly get nectar out of a zinnia ?

Hi Jay,

" Do hummers actually stick their long tongues into those tiny starfish,
or are they just lapping up all the small insects on the zinnia flowers? "

They are not "lapping up all the small insects on the zinnia flowers." There are usually not any small insects on a zinnia bloom.

" Of course they are always attracted to anything red, so they always investigate, but can they truly get nectar out of a zinnia ? "

They can truly get nectar out of a zinnia, and they spend a lot of time in a zinnia patch doing it. The color of the bloom doesn't apparently have anything to do with which blooms they visit. They appear to methodically visit all zinnia blooms with pollen florets. We have a Mimosa tree in full bloom, and they spend a lot of time in it, getting Mimosa nectar.

Incidentally, hummingbirds do eat some small insects, including apparently mosquitoes. Mosquitoes are a problem on most of this property, except in the areas of my zinnias and around the Mimosa tree.

ZM

Well I guess if anyone should know it would be you Zen. What can I say, I always question everything. Thanks for the Zowie info. I'm going to grow it next year and see what happens. The seeds aren't that expensive. The pictures of Zowie I saw on the web had yellow and orange colors at the edge of the petals. Your pic doesn't look the same as those. I did put the question to the hummingbird expert for a second opinion. Hey maybe you can create a new Zinnia cultivar with larger florets and even more nectar, that would be cool.

Hi Jay,

" The pictures of Zowie I saw on the web had yellow and orange colors at
the edge of the petals. Your pic doesn't look the same as those. "

The zinnia in my picture has nothing to do with a Zowie. In fact, I have never grown Zowies, because I think that big bare central cone looks kind of ugly. Apparently, hummingbirds take no notice of flower color.

" Hey maybe you can create a new Zinnia cultivar with larger florets and even more nectar, "

One of my new zinnia strains does have petals that are just modified pollen florets. I call that strain Razzle Dazzle, after a similar looking Gaillardia strain that bears that name. This is an example of one of my Razzle Dazzle zinnias.

ZM

Ok, well I heard back from Lanny, the hummingbird expert and he says that he has never seen hummers spend much time around Zinnias, when there are more desirable plants nearby, and he thinks Zinnias are not a very good use of space in a hummingbird garden when you can instead have Salvias that will bloom all season long. My garden is for all wildlife, and I grow Zinnias mainly to attract butterflies, but the OP wanted to know what annuals attract hummers and though the headline mentioned Zinnias and she learned from you the best type to grow I will just give a few examples of other annuals that I know hummers love.These are all tubular. Cypress Vine, Cuphea Cigar Flower, Petunia exserta,Nicotiana,Salvia coccinia. I don't really know if these would behave as annuals in Florida, but thats how they behave up north in Illinois. Zen, that razzle dazzle is totally insane. I want some. You amaze me. It's a gift.

Jay - no offense to the hummingbird expert, but I have to say that I have salvias, zinnias and a host of other flowers, including scarlet runner beans, which are one of THE hummingbird magnets in my opinion, and the hummingbirds visit the zinnias as often as they do the others flowers. Certainly not a waste of space; rather the opposite, since they attract the butterflies, the hummingbirds, AND me! And if you leave the seedheads there come autumn, the goldfinches enjoy them.

Sam, you don't even have to wait until autumn. I kept coming out to zinnias with their lower petals plucked. I thought it was one of the neighborhood kids playing he loves, he loves me not, but is getting called home before they finish? I mean the ground was littered with petals! :) It was the goldfinches.

I once looked out my kitchen window and saw a hummer picking something off a spider web on the sill of the house by the basement window. Not sure if he was eating the spider or something stuck in the web. I hadn’t realized that they also ate insects before that.

Ha Ha! Rob, you must be in an area where they live during the summer. Here they just pass through in the fall. Since I'm hybridizing the zinnias, I'd be out there putting hairnets over them all summer - wouldn't that be a pretty sight - LOL!

Alex

Saypoint, it might have been collecting web for it's nest, too. Some of them use spiderwebs to hold their little nests together and bind them to branches.

Samhain, that’s cool! Their nests are so tiny, I’ve probably had some in my previous (very lush, shrub-filled, and slightly overgrown) garden and never saw them.

Saypoint - I've only ever seen them after the hummingbird has returned to it, and I was fortunate enough to be looking in the right direction. Don't know if it's usually the case, but each time it was way up high off the ground.

Today's gold finch "damage". Too cute.

Hi Rob,

Yep, you have a goldfinch problem in your zinnias. As an amateur hobbyist breeder of zinnias, I have had to cope with seed-eating birds for many years. Incidentally, finches are not the only seed eating bird that likes zinnia seeds.

I suppose you could drape some bird netting over your zinnias to keep the birds out. I currently use reflective pinwheels in an effort to "repel" the birds, which is less extreme than draping bird netting. This was a photo of my South Garden, taken a few weeks ago. Click on it to see a bigger version.

The pinwheels are made of reflective Mylar, and when the wind turns them, the pinwheel emits a flashing "strobe" of reflected sunshine. You can find the pinwheels at a party supply store, or a dollar store. Get the reflective kind. They usually cost a dollar or less each. Might be worth a try. Or go for the bird netting. Or just continue to feed the finches.

ZM

I don't mind the loss too much. I'm entranced by the dance between the towering, lumbering sunflowers and the zinnias they make every evening. I grow my flowers for critters and for me.

This volunteer sunflower is over eight feet tall and has at least ten (went out and counted. Well over twenty) flowers on each plant. It's been visited by hummingbird, gold finches, and other beauties!

I'm a fan of sunflowers myself, and always welcome the volunteers on those years I don't purposely plant them.

Alex

I grow "Benary's Giant" and "Magellan" series along with "Purple Prince"; I'll see Monarchs and other butterflies around the BG and PP but not the Magellan.

Hey Zen_man, Do you have a place that you sell your zinnia seeds? I love zinnias and I am always looking for new varieties. And did the hummers ever go to the Razzle Dazzle zinnias?

Hi Cindi,

I have not seen a hummingbird feeding on a Razzle Dazzle yet. I will have to get a whole bed of Razzle Dazzles going before I will have an opportunity to see whether they are something the hummingbirds like. I have two hummingbird feeders up now, one hanging from a Mimosa tree limb that overhangs my zinnia garden, and one that hangs from a tree limb between my study window and the zinnia garden. The hummingbirds rely mostly on the feeders, with secondary interest on the Mimosa tree blooms and my zinnia blooms.

I don't sell my zinnia seeds. They are still "under development" and I won't ever be retailing them. I might some time in the distant future consider selling some zinnia seed stock to a seed company, who would multiply them into commercial quantities. My current favorites are the needle petaled zinnias and the exotic flowered ones, as in these two photos.

The exotics come in several variations, but all make it evident that individual zinnia petals are actually flowers.

Botanically the zinnia petals are flowers because they produce a seed.

ZM

Well I hate to hear that you do not sell the seed. The 2 zinnias that you posted are beautiful and so unique.

On a side note, you do not need red dye in your hummingbird feeder, I have read it's not good for the hummers.

If you ever decide to sell some seeds, please let me know. I am very interested.

Hi Cindi,

" On a side note, you do not need red dye in your hummingbird feeder, I have read it's not good for the hummers. "

I use commercial Perky Pet Hummingbird Instant Nectar Concentrate which contains sucrose and red food coloring. It also contains two preservatives, tartaric acid and sodium benzoate. I think the preservatives are much needed to keep the sugar water from "going bad" in the feeder. The red food coloring doesn't seem to harm the hummers -- because we have a significant population of them that seem quite healthy all Summer long, and capable of some impressive aerial battles. There is online information on the Perky Pet Hummingbird Food Guide.

Hummingbirds also eat small insects, and I think that includes mosquitoes. Those insects provide some much needed nutrients and trace elements. Just imagine how unhealthy it would be for humans to try to live on a diet of just red KoolAid. The hummers and dragonflies do significantly dent our mosquito population, but I still need to wear mosquito repellent.

Back to the subject of zinnias. You could try making your own hybrid zinnias, by growing several varieties and cross pollinating them yourself. Every variety of zinnias that I now grow were originally developed from commercial zinnias that I purchased from seed racks or seed catalogs. Like the title of the zinnia message threads, it can be fun to breed your own zinnias. And when you are breeding your own zinnias, you decide what you are looking for. And, when you look closely, you may discover that zinnias can be full of surprises.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

I would not even know where to begin to make my own hybrid zinnias. I am retired so I have the time, just not the knowledge. I might have to do some research and try it next year.

I do not know why Perky Pet thinks they should put the red dye in their bottled nectar. All hummers need is sugar water and like you said, they eat small insects. I boil my sugar water so I do not have a problem with mine going bad. I change and clean my feeders before the liquid has a chance to go bad. If you should decide you would like to make your own. It is 1 part sugar to 4 parts water. I know you probably know this, just thought I would mention it.

Keep breeding zinnias, I am sure you have bred some beauties (besides the ones you have posted)

Hello Cindi,

" I do not know why Perky Pet thinks they should put the red dye in their bottled nectar. "

Hummingbirds are truly attracted to red. A few hours ago we saw a hummingbird touching its beak to the red plastic handle of one of my garden tools. However, Perky Pet does make their products with or without the red food coloring. We buy our Perky Pet hummingbird food at Walmart, who seem to carry only the red version of the product. But I am OK with that. Our hummers seem to be fine, except for the occasional affair with a garden tool.

" I would not even know where to begin to make my own hybrid zinnias. I am retired so I have the time, just not the knowledge. I might have to do some research and try it next year. "

I am also retired. It is actually easy to make your own hybrid zinnias. You can start your zinnia project right now, in this very paragraph, by shopping for a few zinnia seed varieties that attract you. Swallowtail Seeds has a good selection of contemporary zinnia varieties. There will probably be some new zinnias for 2021, but there are several new 2020 varieties currently available. This is a link to the current Swallowtail Seeds zinnia varieties. You can scroll down on that zinnia page for a surprising amount.

You can start your zinnia research by reading the It can be fun to breed your own zinnias message threads here on Houzz. Those message threads originally began years ago in one of the forums named Annuals at a website named Garden Web (which was later purchased and absorbed by Houzz.) Those threads exist in "Parts" because when a thread exceeds 100 messages it can become slow to load for some people. You can also read my

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias

message thread over at The National Gardening Association. The structure of that forum does not require breaking a thread into parts. And you are totally welcome to jump in with questions of your own at any of those message threads.

" I am sure you have bred some beauties (besides the ones you have posted) "

One of the contributors to the book, "Flower Breeding and Genetics" suggested that zinnias would look better if their plants had narrower leaves that ended in a sharp point. That got me interested in the zinnia plant itself. Most zinnia plants have leaves and branches in pairs, but I am working toward getting plants based on threes instead of twos. I refer to these plants as "Threesies". I am making some progress in that direction.

I have several "threesies" in my garden now, and am using some of their pollen on "regular" zinnias in an effort to "convert" their progeny.

ZM

Well I tried to comment earlier and my comment disappeared.

I realize that hummers are attracted to red, most of my feeders have red on them so they are fine.

I am currently growing 7 or 10 varieties of zinnias and hope to find some new ones for 2021. I love the queen lime series and would love to have some more colors of those. I also like colorful zinnias, like whirlygig and zowie. Those colors are just so bright

Thank you so much for the links to the info on breeding zinnias. I will have to start my research and see if I think I can do it.

I remember Garden Web, I think I stayed on that site for hours at the time. I had a lot of questions answered on there and met some nice folks.

The "threesies" look interesting.

Cindi

Hello again, Cindi,

I have also lost whole messages, or part of one. Very frustrating. (Sometimes, if I accidentally delete something, like some text, or even a photo, I can restore it by hitting Ctrl-z (on a PC system). If you don't already know about Ctrl-z, experiment with it to see what it can do for you.

" I am currently growing 7 or 10 varieties of zinnias and hope to find some new ones for 2021. "

Well, you are already practically there when it comes to breeding zinnias. You could start "pushing pollen" in the morning. Be the bee. You may already have some tweezers that you can "pick" pollen florets with, and rub them on petal stigmas. Or you could use some forceps (Kelly forceps are a common style), and you might have a pair in your tackle box if you fish or know someone who does.

" I love the queen lime series and would love to have some more colors of those. "

There you go. Pick some pollen florets from some of your favorite greens and rub them on the stigmas of some non-greens that you like. Possibly do that in this very morning. Incidentally, Burpee has a good green with a white center that gives it a clean look that I like. Burpee's name for it is Tequila Lime. (You can click on all of my pictures to see them bigger.)

Crossing some of your greens with some of your whites might be a good start. And you might also want to go for a whole range of colors with white centers.

" I remember Garden Web, I think I stayed on that site for hours at the time. "

You might still be able to access some of the original Garden Web material, although it has suffered some degradation in the relocation. This is a link to the first message of my original

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias

message thread back in September 30, 2007. Time flies when you are having fun! I lived in Maine then, so my "handle" was MaineMan.

MM, ZM

Hi Zen_Man

I do know about ctrl+z, I use it a lot in photoshop.

So I said I am growing 7 or 10 varieties, it is more like 12 - 15. I also have a couple of zinnias that volunteered this year.

I do want to use queen lime (the green one) I will have to do that a little later. I sowed those seeds late so they have not bloomed yet.

I do have others that I am interested in trying. I have a few questions though. I was awake part of the night thinking about this and thought

of several questions, but I probably will not be able to remember them all now. lol

I think I will try the paintbrush method at first, to me that seems easier.

If I should choose to use the florets as a paintbrush, do you

pick them at the base of the floret?

For the flower with the stigma- you said to push pollen on it early in the morning. Is that on a new bud that is just opening? How do you

know if another pollinator has already gotten to it or not?

How do you decide which part of the flower to use on the other flower? For example- do I use queen lime's floret on a magenta stigma or

do I use magenta's floret on queen lime's stigma? Or does it matter?

Do you have to push pollen on all of the flower's stigma? And do you just brush against it at the top or do you need to push it down in the middle of the stigma?

Do you use a different floret on each stigma?

Do you leave the flower that you have pollinated on the plant to completely die or pick it when it is past it's prime?

I realize some of the questions have been answered or are dumb questions, but I want to do this right.

I think the hardest part will be waiting until next year to see what I get. Since it is so late in the season when I am starting.

I want to thank you for replying so quickly to my messages and for all the tips and insight you have given.

I went out this morning to look for possiblites and buds that had not quite opened yet. Now I am off to buy an artist brush and hopefully

tomorrow morning, I will give this a try.

Cindi

Hi Cindi,

" If I should choose to use the florets as a paintbrush, do you pick them at the base of the floret? "

Yes. My intent is to get most of the floret, including the internal anther bundle. I use tweezers or small forceps.

However, since you are using the artist's brush method, you won't be picking florets, you will just be brushing the center of them with the tip of the brush to pick up some pollen grains. You could think of that as "painting" stigmas with pollen.

" For the flower with the stigma- you said to push pollen on it early in the morning. Is that on a new bud that is just opening? How do you know if another pollinator has already gotten to it or not? "

For same day pollination, you don't know. If somebody, including yourself, "beat you to it" the previous day, the stigma will be showing signs of wilting and dying. Stigmas stay "open" and receptive for several days, until they get pollinated, at which time they "wilt" and become un-receptive to further pollen.

" Do you have to push pollen on all of the flower's stigma? And do you just brush against it at the top or do you need to push it down in the middle of the stigma? "

In the early stages of development of a petal, the two arms of the stigma are stuck together. As the petal lengthens, the arms of the stigma at its base become "unstuck" and you see the familiar Y-shaped yellow organ. The receptive sticky part of the stigma is on the two arms at the inside surfaces that were originally together. So you can just gently brush the stigma to get one or more pollen grains to stick to the inside arms of the "Y". One grain is all it takes, but in the probable event that more than one grain gets stuck, only one "wins" and fertilizes the embryo.

" Do you use a different floret on each stigma? "

No, I touch several stigmas with the floret. And there may be some overlap, in which I might touch many stigmas with many florets. It is a hit-or-miss operation, and if I miss, I may hit the stigma in the next day or two.

" Do you leave the flower that you have pollinated on the plant to completely die or pick it when it is past it's prime? "

My intention is to harvest plump green seeds before a seed-eating bird or something else gets at them. However, I have several dead blooms in my zinnia patch right now, so my intention is to harvest them soon, because I don't intend for the seed heads to die on the plant. I have reflective pinwheels spinning, and they seem to have kept the seed eating birds at bay. But I continue to be amazed that the pinwheels seem to work. The hummingbirds don't seem to mind them, but the seed-eating birds do? I dunno.

" I think the hardest part will be waiting until next year to see what I get. Since it is so late in the season when I am starting. "

Well, you will be able to harvest your seeds and package them some way, and get some idea how many seeds you have produced. Sometimes I go through my saved seeds and pick out the best looking ones to plant first. If you do a lot of pollinating, you will probably wind up with way more seeds than you have room for in your garden. So picking out your favorite looking seeds may be something you will want to do. Occasionally I find a really odd looking zinnia seed.

That seed came from one of my "exotic" zinnia blooms.

Good luck with your zinnia operations. Luck is a definite factor, and zinnias can be full of surprises.

ZM

Well I posted a comment last night and it is not showing. Second time this has happened to me. I will try again.

Anyway, I went out this morning and I think it might have been too late. It was around 8:30. I used a watercolor artist brush and dipped it into the floret. I did not see any pollen, so I am guessing I was too late.

I went ahead and tried it anyway. I also plucked a couple of florets and touched them to a few stigma. I have put a string around that zinnia and will go out earlier in the morning and try it again.

So my question is, can you see the pollen when you use a paintbrush?

Thank you so much for answering all my questions.

Oh and what I am trying first is a magenta colored zinnia that volunteered in my flowerbed this year, using it's pollen to brush on a queen lime blotch zinnia. Hopefully I can get out earlier in the morning and try it again. Should I continue to try on the same flower?

I do like plucking the floret, it does seem easier.

Maybe this time, my comment will post.

CP

Hi CP,

" Well I posted a comment last night and it is not showing. "

The way I post a message here on Houzz I would know if it is going to "show" or not. That is because I post a message here in Houzz in deliberate stages. In this first stage I have clicked on "Write a comment" and I have noticed your sign-off of CP instead of Cindi, so I am using that because I usually also just use the initials ZM instead of ZenMan. I will also throw a gratuitous photo in this message, so I will click on the Photo icon in the row of icons below my message. I am clicking on Photo now, and will navigate to a photo on my system and Open it.

I have clicked on a 1000-pixel-wide JPG of the pair of tweezers I am currently using to pollinate zinnias by picking florets and rubbing them on stigmas. At this stage it appears "full sized". So at this stage I am going to pretend that my message is complete, space down and put "ZM" on the bottom line, and click on the green Submit button. Doing that now.

I see that my posted message is oddly spaced out, with lots of blank lines that I did not put there, but my tweezers photo is now a smallish thumbnail as I expected. But all of those blank lines are a mess, so I click on the Edit button to remove them. Now, here in the Edit mode I proceed to delete ALL of the blank lines, including the ones immediately above and below my thumbnail picture of my tweezers. Doing that now.

I have now removed ALL of the blank lines in this Edit session, so I will now click on the green Submit button (again) and Houzz will hopefully display this message in a form that I like. It did. That pre-planned obligatory Edit session is sort of my insurance and confirmation that this message is getting posted. And it gets rid of all of those ridiculous blank lines.

ZM

I think my problem might be is I write my message in notepad, then copy and paste it in here. I guess I should save those messages in case it does not post.

I am going to try pushing pollen again in the morning, earlier than I did this morning.

CP

Hi CP,

" I am going to try pushing pollen again in the morning, earlier than I did this morning. "

You can start too early for convenience. If you start before the internal stigma in the pollen floret has emerged, the pollen will still be inside the floret base, in the internal anther bundle. Occasionally I will extract the anther bundle, using the needle points of my tweezers, and rub petal stigmas with that. But I don't usually recommend that, because it is kind of advanced, and the anther bundle is a tiny little thing like this ⱡ

If you look closely at a pollen floret, you can see whether the internal stigma has emerged yet. Using pollen florets as brushes is probably a more versatile choice because, hours after the internal stigma has emerged, there can still be some individual pollen grains lodged in the "fuzzy" yellow arms of the floret. I spend several hours a day pollinating my breeder zinnias.

ZM

Hi Zen man,

I waited until around 8:30 this morning so I believe I need to go out earlier, maybe 7:30 or 8:00.

So is it okay if I try again on the same flower? I am sure I did not transfer any pollen this morning. I could not see any pollen on the paintbrush.

CP

Hi CP,

" So is it okay if I try again on the same flower? "

Yes indeed. Zinnia blooms continue to develop for many days and even weeks in some cases, and during that time they can add new petals and stigmas that need to be pollinated. And a stigma can remain receptive for several days, until it is fertilized, at which time it dies rather rapidly. And new pollen florets can appear on a daily basis. So you can work on the same zinnia flower for days -- even weeks on some of the larger bloomed varieties.

ZM

I went out at 7:30 this morning. We had a rain last night so it was a little wet.

I still did not see pollen on my brush, so I plucked a few florets and tried with them.

My question is- I should be able to see the pollen on my brush- correct?

And on my flower that I am pollinating, some of the stigma are not there this morning or they wilted. So maybe I did pollinate some or another pollinator did.

I am trying to read through the 62 pages on the link you posted about breeding zinnias. There is a lot of info on there. I hope to one day read all the way through.

CP

Hello CP,

" I am trying to read through the 62 pages on the link you posted about breeding zinnias. "

I think that link started at the very beginning of the It can be fun to breed your own zinnias. That message string eventually broke into parts, because of loading difficulties. Actually, I think that most of the "It can be fun" messages are no longer accessible, because the link back to Part 45 is broken, but you can go forward from

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 46

and that will lead you forward through the message string to Part 54 which is on the same "page" as this current message string (which is getting a bit long itself.) Since hummingbirds are no longer our primary interest here, you might want to "jump ship" and move over to Part 54 to leave your zinnia breeding messages.

" I went out at 7:30 this morning. We had a rain last night so it was a little wet.

I still did not see pollen on my brush, so I plucked a few florets and tried with them. "

That was probably too early. I am not too good at taking photos of zinnia florets yet, but in this attempt, white and black arrows point at the centers of some "typical" florets where you could see evidence of pollen. (You should click on the small "thumbnail" picture to see the larger version of it.)

They don't appear in this photo, but the internal floret stigma can push out a small pile of pollen and, before it scatters, that is the ideal time to dip a brush tip into the pile. Alternatively, and probably preferably, you can pick the whole floret with tweezers or forceps (I used to use "Twizzors") and use the whole floret as a brush to rub pollen on stigmas. You can do that at your convenience later in the day.

We probably should continue this conversation over at

It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 54

ZM