One column also.

Columns in a passageway? You can't be serious. Make any freestanding column big and round and/or add a low wall or cabinets to prevent accidents.

Is there an overlook on the upper floor? Don't add more; deal with the cause of the problem.

Less is more...pretty sure!

I’d do one. I don’t like with the “two” option a column also ends up behind the island seating and leaves an even narrows “passage” on closet side than you get with the one column by serving station.

Also, you did not ask, but I could not help but wonder where a bed can be positioned in that master bedroom without blocking a door or closet opening somehow - I assume that little “bump in” is a fireplace or something? I know this is a narrow plan and there are limitations (I also have a narrow house), but if that is a fireplace I think it needs to go so you can at least use that wall to position a bed.

See what architectrunnerguy comes up with when he gets back. Otherwise, I lean towards 2.

Agreed... where does the master bed go???

In you decision process, consider the beam the column(s) support. I assume if one column is used the beam is larger in height and encroaches into the space more. This may or may not make a difference, but if it does it may be very important. When designing space think think of all three dimensions and sometimes four dimensions.

Another thing to consider is the columns do not have to be equally spaced.

HI Mark, OUr architect said the columns have to be aligned with the columns in the basement so we didn't have a choice on moving them around.. is that true?

HI Rai Kai and artemis_ma,

That's not a fireplace in the bedroom, I think it's how the furnace gets to the top floor, however all of that is changing/moving/different systems being put in and that little thing bumping out will go away or if we can't remove it, we are building out a "fake" wall to align with it and putting the bed against that wall.

This is really preliminary just so we can see where things will be placed and spacing!

Thanks!

If you must use support column(s) in the middle of a room, then use two and do really USE them: integrate them into your floor plan by building a bar or table or bench seat or shelving or cabinets or tv wall -- something room appropriate in between them.

HI JDS,

Columns are not for design, they are for structure so we have no real choice on the matter. They have to be there and need to line up with the columns in the basement. It's a brownstone type house and there's no overlook from the top floor.

I wouldn't want to take up anymore space with the columns than I have to!

There are two well established design principles involved here:

1) Don't attempt to solve a 3 dimensional problem in 2 dimensions.

2) Creative problem solving begins with a well defined problem.

Please post the upper level and a building section through the dining area.

Hi Architectrunnerguy,

Thank you for re-working the floor plan! Unfortunately, the stairs you see to the left of our floor plan with the door from the foyer are part of the upstairs apartment and not the 1st floor so we can't take up any of that space. We're really trying to keep this as open as possible which is why we made the choices that we did on where to place things even though they're not ideal. I'm interested to see what else you can show us! We're still in preliminary phases but I'm holding up the whole thing figuring out these columns.

Thanks!

If there's a flat ceiling above the living spaces, you can turn the upper floor support beams 90 degrees and span from bearing wall to bearing wall. Of course, without more drawings its not possible to know if the rest of the structure would be affected.

JDS -- don't have upper level floor plan yet. it's a 2 family home so that apartment won't matter to our plan I believe.. here's the basement

JDS -- I should also tell you that while we are gut reno-ing the basement and first floor, the second floor is just getting cosmetic updates so we're not actually structurally changing anything on that floor.. would we have to per your 90 degree suggestion?

I have done before and just added posts in the basement where needed. It all depends on how much of the original structure will remain therefore all that information is needed. I would go to great lengths to avoid columns in a circulation path.

Unfortunately, the stairs you see to the left of our floor plan with the door from the foyer are part of the upstairs apartment and not the 1st floor so we can't take up any of that space.

I assumed that since it looked like a typical "stacked unit" configuration typical of many Brownstones.

My drawing had an identical stair to your drawing with no changes to either the stair going up or the stair going down. But since you're getting other great help here I took it down. You're in good hands!

But the best of luck with your project!

" . . . columns have to be aligned with the columns in the basement so we didn't have a choice on moving them around."

Columns (or point loads) from floors above must be picked up in some fashion by support below. They can be off-set, but the shifting of the load must be accommodated by a appropriately sized beam.

Rely on the advice of your architect.

You would probably need two new posts and footings in the basement to support the left ends of the new beams near the stairs. The new beams might need to be lower than the ceiling but that might give some definition to the dining area. This is all subject to the opinion of your structural engineer.

This is such an obvious solution that I expect your architect and engineer to tell you why its not feasible but its worth a try. Beams are a lot better than posts.

Aligning the new posts from 1st floor to basement will take some work.

If the 90 degree beams won't work, I'd use a tapered 18" Doric (Tuscan) column aligned with the end of the kitchen island and call it a feature.

JDS -- oh so you're saying put 2 beams by the stairs n the basement to align with the wall on the 1st floor so then we could just do the 90 degree beams on the 1st floor and frame the dining room?

2 posts by the stairs in the basement not beams

I hope JDS's solution for no columns works.

If you have to have columns, I'd want them to look like they made sense. That might actually mean more columns, not fewer. For example, framing out the dining area on each corner and having a coffered ceiling (or similar) in that space would give the columns some kind of purposeful look, rather than looking like a random placement. There are still going to be some unfortunate and awkward spots, like the spot to the left of the bottom left column, and the possible pinch point to the left of the top left column. (You would want to make that counter to the left of the dining space shallower. I would do that regardless, so it's not a hip-bumper sticking out past that wall.)

I would work with your architect (and those on this forum) to either eliminate the columns or make them look purposeful.

Here's a design, above, which makes spatial sense. I don't know if it makes structural sense. You need an architect.

In order to avoid accidents, the additional detailing needs to be at the floor level. Low walls or shelving etc.

I am having trouble reading the plan notations; does it say a 2x5 kitchen island? With an additional overhang? Or including the overhang? Shown with 5 stools?

Sorry 4 stools, not 5?

I'm not a fan of columns (I, too, live in a brownstone/townhouse - but we converted it to a single family).

Would it be possible to extend the walls that are in line with the proposed two-column locations, to create sort of an "entry" and a "hide the bathroom door" bump out?

JDS -- I meant if we put 2 additional beams by the stairs in the basement, would we only need the beams upstairs going across?

I don't understand the purpose of the basement beams. Do you mean posts?

Posts = vertical (columns).

Beams = horizontal.

If your builder/remodeler isn't already collaborating with your architect-- and a structural engineer if needed--now is a great time. Together, they can sort through the variety of alternatives, assess feasibility and cost and give you alternatives.

Cost considerations aside, I would favor JDS' solution to pick up the point load with some beams and eliminate an obstacle in a circulation path. I know I'd hit it every morning when I head to the kitchen for my caffeine fix.

Emily, that is correct: two upper level beams and two new posts on both floors eliminating the first floor posts. But I don't know the actual framing of the building so you need to follow the advice of your architect, engineer and builder.

These beams are known as "transfer beams" because they transfer vertical loads from above to other offset posts below. The most obvious concern is the height of the new beams above the living spaces. I don't know if the existing long beam is below or level with the existing floor joists or how high those beams are above the first floor.

Remember what I said about the two design principles involved here? There's still too much not revealed so I'm only throwing out an idea. You might hit your head on the new beams for all I know.

You need boots on the ground input from a contractor NOW. You need a budget and practicality check ASAP. You are likely to experience immediate and fatal sticker shock if you wait until the end of the design phase to get preliminary cost estimates. This is a hugely expensive project that will likely need design readjusting to ever make any financial sense. It may make much better sense to leave the current walls and not try to make this into a modern home. Because it isn’t.

It will definitely cost more but it will be worth it if it avoids a trip to the emergency room with Nana on Christmas Eve.

I did this for several 8x8 posts in an old Yankee Barn house. Modern LVL's, big Simpson hangers and a good structural engineer can work miracles. Steel beams might save about 4" of headroom.

I disagree with Sophie. This is a modern house; it just has posts in the main passageway that need to be removed.

If the ceiling height is not an issue, this is 2 beams, 4 posts and 2 footings.

But that assumes the existing long beam is continuous where it needs to be. It may be new for all I know. Definitely too many unknowns and that's what kills ideas like this.

Sophie is right that it needs local input ASAP.

My office had this problem in a restaurant and made the column 30" in diameter and wrapped it with a hand woven rug.

I saw a similar column in a hotel recently and it was even larger and wrapped with rope.

So, one column could work for you if its large enough and well designed. An 8x8 post would be a magnet for heads.

I saw a similar column in a hotel recently and it was even larger and wrapped with rope.

My cat would LOVE that scratching post! lol

I can just see someone’s gramma knitting a cozy for a post rather than the teapot.

I think there’s a certain dishonesty in all of those looks that makes them far less appealing than if they were just raw concrete or steel. If someone wants modern, and that means support posts, there should be an unabashed LOVE for that structural detail. It shouldn’t be attempted to be disguised like your crazy uncle in the attic that you’re ashamed to have in the family.

The current attempt to cross 1002 traditional home details and with large modern internal volumes is what resulted in the horrible atrocity of the NeoEccentric TopHat MishMassAppeal taking over production building. Pop a few Mr Potato Head details on the house of the 70 gables and it’s a Craftsman, or a Folk Victorian, or French Country.

Continuing that awkward cross into the interior results in the 10 Acre (Painted) Wood Kitchen, with the Antarctic OutPost Breakfast Bar, where those OutPosts are attempted to be integrated into the whole, by disguising them as Traditional elements. Which does semi work a lot of the time to keep you from bashing your noggin.

But, people just don’t have the guts to actually commit to what they are asking home builders to produce. They want a Modern Home, but superficially disguised in Gramma’s apron, pince nez, and hairnet.

A little imagination is not a crime against humanity.

Well...we all approach design from our own individual direction. That's as it should be with design, don't you think?

Finnish architect Alvar Aalto, was a very interesting and creative architect. He was a talented Modernist, but also very much a regionalist, influenced by the materials and beauty of his native Finland.

Here's some of the columns he designed for the Villa Mairea/ Rural retreat for Harry and Maire Gullichsen. 1939. Noormarkku, Finland. One quickly sees the ties to Modern Architecture in these functional columns, which are, at the same time, "tamed" and made uniquely creative and comfortable to see and touch. If one must have exposed columns in a residence, I think it may be challenging to find columns any more comfortable and attractive than these by Aalto.

Aalto has also been called the Finnish Frank Lloyd Wright, which I think is a great dis-service, since Aalto was an extraordinary talent and ably demonstrated that he designed in his own unique approach.

A rare trait, his design skill and sensitivity.

I'm not suggesting that there's a "better" or "worse" approach to any of this, but I do find it interesting how each of us approaches a design problem in our own individual manner.

Just architecture shop-talk...

JDS -- I was told the posts have to stay where they are because they have to align with the posts in the basement so if I kept them where they were and made them bigger in diameter, we would be loosing so much space and our main goal is to open our home up and to have as little wasted space as possible.

My architect and contractor are working very closely together and as far as budget, we've already gotten our base pricing and know how expensive this project is going to be but that's to be expected with any gut reno of a pre-war home.

My worry is that my architect isn't being creative enough with a solution to this issue for us which is why I brought the question here to get other opinions.

I appreciate all your help and I'm going to suggest the 2 beams, 4 posts, and 2 footings that you came up with and see where we can go from there.

The posts don't really bother me at all, I just really don't want one in the middle of the dining room in front of our serving station but 2 felt like we weren't maximizing our space.

And like Sophie said -- I would definitely keep them wood or metal and make a structural statement and not try to hide them.

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR INPUT. We're pretty far along and making our final call on Sunday.

We can't know what the structural post will be but I've renovated quite a few buildings of this kind and all of the new support posts were 4"+ steel tubes or Lally columns with steel top and bottom plates like you would expect to find in an unfinished basement.

Sophie, would you leave the post bare for the sake of honesty? Would you resign if your client disagreed? Have you never renovated a townhouse?

Even if the columns are already in the basement, you can still add another one under the place where you want a column upstairs as long as there isn't a door in the way.. If the basement walls haven't been installed, the slab could be cut and a new footing pad poured and then a steel post added. Your architect should have thought of it long ago. I've done projects where all of the original footings and posts had to be abandoned and new ones installed.

Le Cobusier's only building in the US is the Carpenter Center at Harvard. He was not an architect in the US so his name was shown as "designer" on the sign out front. There are some very tall slender columns that support part of the building. They were too thin to build of reinforced concrete so steel columns were wrapped in concrete. My structural design professor was the engineer who did the structural design.

I personally like the lally columns. I’d powder coat em red before install. Most clients don’t like them though. One or two in a design usually does get cladded, and I like a low bookcase in between to tie them together, and create relationship sense to the brain as a solution. Kinda like the old Craftsmen bookcase column separators.

But that ^ many in that basement says “put up a wall around them”, not “make me a star”.

I finally figured out why architect's on the GW are considered rude and condescending.