Canning is what people did when they didn't have freezers. In asking what is "better", are you referring to nutrients? I think that canned produce can lose nutritional value in water-soluble nutrients like vitamins B and C. Also, often salt is added as a preservative. But nutritionally, either way is pretty good. Personally, I find that frozen veggies taste better than canned veggies, in that some of the taste is water soluble, but that's just an opinion.

I think blanching is essential before freezing. It turns off enzymes that can degrade the product. If you're not going to be storing for a long time, it may not matter much though. When frozen, enzymes will degrade produce, but very slowly. To some extent blanching sterilizes the veggies as well.

No, I'm not saying you shouldn't do canning if you have a freezer, but it's just a fact that canning used to be the ONLY way of preserving food. Certainly canning doesn't require electricity, and doesn't require using up freezer space. If you have a small freezer, and a big cupboard, canning is certainly the way to go! Certainly also true that sharing produce with others is vastly easier if it is in bottles rather than bricks.

Blanching, then freezing, preserves the color, taste, texture and nutrients better, in my experience.

Do you really have enough peas and beans to go through the canning process for long term storage? Think about that.

Well, canning wasn't really the only way to preserve food, there was fermenting (pickles and sauerkraut), salting and smoking (hams and bacon), root cellars and drying/dehydrating. All of those things are still valid food preservation techniques along with canning and freezing.

I have freezers. Three of them. I also raise grass fed beef, free range chicken, this year we raised ducks. My husband hunts so we always have venison, we're overrun with deer. To add to the fun, we planted fish in our ponds, so those will be added to the freezer. Freezer space is at a premium and I refuse to get another one.

As a result, I can many things from vegetables to chuck steak to duck stock. I'm also picky about what I like. Green beans I like canned, corn I like frozen. Berries get frozen, but apples get canned or made into cider, which then is frozen. It's all a matter of personal taste.

But, even with those freezers, here in the boonies we sometimes lose power. The canned food is safe on the pantry shelves and the root vegetables and squash are tucked away in the "root cellar" while the beef is thawing and I'm chewing my nails, trying to figure out how I'm going to can an entire steer, LOL. I still have two squash in the "root cellar" from last fall, they've managed to remain in storage for over 9 months now, along with a handful of garlic and a few Kennebec potatoes.

The link Dave gave you for the National Center for Home Food Preservation is a good one and they'll tell you how to can/freeze/pickle/ferment/dehydrate and why pressure canning is necessary for meats and vegetables. Your local extension service should be able to give you a lot of help and advice too, mine is wonderful.

Happy Canning! (And freezing, and pickling, and dehydrating and....)

Annie

@digdirt2

"It is usually a personal taste issue relative to the specific vegetable. Green beans for example have those who will only can them and others who will only blanch and freeze."

Fair enough, I guess it will depend on the use then. Like take green beans...if you want em the way you get em at a BBQ restaurant where they're boiled till soft then canning is just fine. But if you want to blister them in a hot pan with sea salt you want em to be still crisp so I'm guessing the freezer method would work best?

Canning takes more time and energy but the food stores for much longer and isn't power dependent. But PRESSURE canning (as opposed to BWB canning or pickling), which is what most vegetables require, isn't something one can just jump into

Oh I'm setup for it and I've done both the pressure canning and the water bath methods, this is just the first year I'll be doing it with fresh produce right from the garden, hence the question. But for veggies though it's only pressure canning right? Only high acid foods can use the water bath method as I understand it?

@annie1992

"As a result, I can many things from vegetables to chuck steak to duck
stock. I'm also picky about what I like. Green beans I like canned,
corn I like frozen. Berries get frozen, but apples get canned or made
into cider, which then is frozen. It's all a matter of personal taste."

I've not canned meat before but we don't have livestock (other than chickens for the eggs) but if we ever do I would definitely want to use it all. Any recipes you recommend for canning meat? Like could do a beef stew like that or would the veggies get too mushy?

"My husband hunts so we always have venison, we're overrun with deer."

Tell him anytime he wants to visit PA he's welcome to setup in our back pasture anytime he wants, we've got dozens of them and it's a constant challenge keeping the damn things away from our plants and trees!

We used a pressure cooker for the first time this season to can snaps, mainly to save freezer space but also to compare to the snaps we blanch and freeze. The last 2 years my wife has skipped the usual blanch & freeze process for both peas and snaps and just cooks up a large pot of both and freezes the leftovers in their own juices. This seems to work well too. Some things like broccoli are best blanched and frozen.

"Oh I'm setup for it and I've done both the pressure canning and the
water bath methods, this is just the first year I'll be doing it with
fresh produce right from the garden, hence the question."

Be sure to note my point about the learning curve. It isn't just a matter of being set up for it but of knowing how to do it correctly. We have many discussions on the forum with folks who think they are doing it correctly only to discover that they are not and their pressure canned foods were either processed incorrectly (from a safe-to-consume point of view) or major problems developed during the process.

https://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/uga/using_press_canners.html

"But for veggies
though it's only pressure canning right? Only high acid foods can use
the water bath method as I understand it?"

No. Vegetables can be BWB canned in certain situations - it all depends on the recipe used to do it. Salsa is a good example of that. They can also be pickled and then canned as with relishes and such, or even dehydrated and then canned. NCHFP provides all the approved and tested recipes for doing so, including how to do meats, as do the Ball Home Food Preserving books.

As a general rule the manuals that come with your canner are not considered a safe source as they often do not reflect the current safety and processing guidelines.

Dave

True enough about fermenting, salting and smoking, and drying/dehydrating as old-time preservation methods. Now, root cellars are not really "preservation" any more than a fridge is preservation. But fermenting, salting, and smoking are not preservation techniques commonly applied to vegetables, and certainly don't preserve the flavor.

Fermenting vegetables gives you a product with healthy probiotics - fermented cucumbers (pickles) and fermented cabbage (sauerkraut) are popular ferments as are kimchi, escabeche, and giardiniera I have a small top - of - fridge freezer, so I do canning to have a shelf stable product that doesn't need refrigeration. Blanching helps keep your beans and broccoli bright green, but isn't really necessary if the product is only going to be frozen for a few weeks. Go to https://nchfp.uga.edu/ as mentioned above for safe canning recipes. They also include information on freezing, dehydrating and fermenting. Ball's website has reliable recipes as well. https://www.freshpreserving.com/

Sadly, I have never had any luck freezing peas and beans, either blanching them first or not, they always taste horrid :( OTOH frozen peppers are so simple. Just wash/dry/slice and bag :). I can tomato sauce, apples and plums. I also freeze tomatoes whole in gallon-sized baggies.

Linda

@digdirt2

"Be sure to note my point about the learning curve. It isn't just a
matter of being set up for it but of knowing how to do it correctly."

As I said, I'm well familiar with the process so I'm not sure what 'learning curve' you're imagining?

"No. Vegetables can be BWB canned in certain situations - it all
depends on the recipe used to do it. Salsa is a good example of that.
They can also be pickled and then canned as with relishes and such, or
even dehydrated and then canned."

I think it might be you who needs to read up on the guidelines because spreading that kind of misinformation on a forum like this is extremely dangerous. ALL vegetables should be processed using the pressure canning technique ONLY. Salsa only works in a HWB because it is highly acidic due to the tomatoes (which are a fruit, not a vegetable) and the lime juice which is very high acid. The pH MUST be below 4.6 to safely use the HWB method. So if you are pickling vegetables and use enough vinegar (acid) then it should be fine. Same if your recipe contains enough tomato or citrus juice. If you're going to go this route though, please invest the $10 on apH meter so you know you are doing this safely, failing to do so can be deadly

Here is a good reference chart with pH values for most foods:

http://www.pickyourown.org/ph_of_fruits_and_vegetables_list.htm

@Labradors

"Sadly, I have never had any luck freezing peas and beans, either blanching them first or not, they always taste horrid"

Have you tried vacuum sealing them. I read up a lot on this in the last couple days and here's the technique I tried:

1)blanch in boiling water the appropriate amount of minutes

2)plunge into ice water for the same number of minutes

3)drain well in a colander, then I put them into my food dehydrater for about 3-5 mins, enough to dry all the water off them.

4)vacuum seal them with my Food Saver vacuum sealer

I don't freeze peas or beans but, somehow, frozen peas and beans you get at the store end up tasting quite fine.

"I think it might be you who needs to read up on the guidelines because
spreading that kind of misinformation on a forum like this is extremely
dangerous. ALL vegetables should be processed using the pressure canning technique ONLY."

Sorry for any mis-understanding but as a Master Food Preserver and class instructor I am well versed in the guidelines. Since you are new to our forum and the regulars here please be assured that I do NOT give out mis or dangerous information. Indeed I am often accused of being TOO conservative, TOO careful.

However posted information may be misunderstood by the reader no matter how careful we are in our posts. And the fact is that there are several cases where recipes for canning vegetables need not be pressure canned but may be safely BWB (not HWB) canned. So many so that one cannot make the statement "ALL vegetables should be processed using the pressure canning technique ONLY."" with any accuracy.That statement only applies to plain vegetables with no other added ingredients or any other form of pre-processing. Beyond that the need for pressure canning totally depends on the set of instructions used.

Fermented sauerkraut and other fermented vegetable mixes need not be pressure canned but may be BWB canned instead, pickled vegetables need not be pressure canned but may be BWB canned, dehydrated vegetables can be added to recipes without pressure canning, many vegetable sauces need not be pressure canned, salsas and chutneys and relishes all contain vegetables and may be BWB, not pressure canned.

You may not be familiar with all the options but they do exist and NCHFP provides details on most of them. If one only follows the NCHFP Guidelines they can be assured of safe food processing regardless of what previous experience they may have.

Lastly, with pressure canning pH is not the concern. Proper pressure
and processing methods eliminate that concern. Nor are pH meters
considered a reliable method of testing pH in BWB processing. Density
is the issue in pressure canning as it is the density of the food in the
jar that determines the processing time required and many home food
canners do not understand how processing time is calculated.

As we have often discovered here in the past, many "think" they are well-versed and well-experienced only to discover that they are far behind the current guidelines, that there have been many changes in the past 6-10 years much less since Mom's time. Since we have no real knowledge of your personal training, knowledge, or experience I sometimes bend over backwards to cover info that may not be necessary but no offense is intended.

Dave

MacD, I can the meat separately from the vegetables and then mix them when I make stew, or I cook fresh vegetables, thicken the broth from the jar of meat, then mix everything together. Meat takes longer than most everything else and the potatoes especially take on a texture that I just don't like. It's still a darned quick stew, though. I do can beef vegetable soup for immediate consumption and that works fine, but I don't add potatoes and the texture of the remaining vegetables doesn't seem overly egregious. I use what I have on hand, usually beans, corn, tomatoes, carrots, peas, onions, leeks, cabbage or any mixture thereof.

Deer? Oh, we have our own, thanks. I have found that venison roast makes a fine corned "beef" substitute and my husband is finding his niche with venison sausage, so that adds some variety.

daninthedirt, I most certainly use fermentation to preserve vegetables. Last year I packed nearly 50 pounds of sauerkraut and a big crock of cucumbers and my husband loves kimchi so much that I grow Napa for it. Another member here kindly sent me daikon seeds, so I could grow that too.

So, although I would beg to differ with the assertion that refrigeration and/or root cellar storage is not a preservation method, as they are used to prolong the storage of food just as freezing or canning is. Still, I'll give you that one.

Salting is used for vegetables, though, or used to be. I don't salt vegetables, but as you can see, it was very commonly used to preserve some vegetables, as evidenced by this government manual dated 1917:

https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/ORC00000283/PDF

Now smoking? You got me on that one, the only vegetables I've managed to smoke are jalapenos, for chipotles, and those are tricky.

Annie

@digdirt2

"However posted information may be misunderstood by the reader no matter how careful we are in our posts. And the fact is that there are several cases where recipes for canning vegetables need not be pressure canned but may be safely BWB (not HWB) canned."

No. Despite your condescending tone and dismissive attitude I did not misunderstand in the slightest. Indeed, your reply suggests quite the reverse...that you didn't read or comprehend a word of what I wrote. Frankly your comments are dangerous for anyone reading these forums and I don't care for them at all. If you truly were 'too conservative, too careful' as you claim then you would start from the most careful and conservative of positions and then work outward from there. Instead you seem hell bent on treating this casually and non-specifically. The reality is that this is botulism we are dealing with here, literally the most lethal toxin known to man so I would think a 'Master Food Preserver' would take that seriously and not throw around casual remarks on the subject.

ALL vegetables should be processed using the pressure canning technique ONLY! Repeat it, embrace it, make it your #1 rule. Got it? Good, now you can add the few exceptions that exist to that rule, that's the safe way to understand this, not the other way around which is obtuse. Also rather than just rattling off a bunch of things in a list like salsa, chutney, sauerkraut etc which is counterproductive lets use some actual science to understand the toxin and how it can develop during the canning process. Botulism grows in these conditions (this is from the CDC):

-Anaerobic environment (that means no oxygen which is what you create when you can a jar)
-Low acid (anything above a pH of 4.6 is considered low for these purposes, many fruits are high acid which is partly why they are safe to can with a HWB technique)
-Low sugar (compared to fruits, veggies are much lower in sugar, which adds to their risk)
-Low salt (again, we often want to preserve our veggies 'as-is' as much as possible and add our seasoning when they are prepared so this compounds the risk as well)
-A certain temperature range (water boils at 212 F but botulism must be boiled at 250 F or higher for at least 5 mins, hence the pressure canner...temp increases proportionately with pressure)
-A certain amount of water (vegetables contain water naturally and many canning recipes call for them to be immersed in it which is why this is a concern as well)

"Lastly, with pressure canning pH is not the concern. Proper pressure and processing methods eliminate that concern. "

What in the world are you talking about? What I said above had you cared to read was "The pH MUST be below 4.6 to safely use the HWB method", I never said anything about pH when using pressure, not sure what you're going on about here.

"Nor are pH meters considered a reliable method of testing pH in BWB processing."

Nonsense. Some pickling recipes I've seen call for diluting the vinegar with water. The general rule is to never go more than 50/50 but that's assuming you have a consistent 5% vinegar solution. Instead of guessing, use a pH meter and adjust until you are safely within the safe zone.

"Density is the issue in pressure canning as it is the density of the food in the jar that determines the processing time required and many home food canners do not understand how processing time is calculated."

Again, your replying to a post on the dangers of HWB+vegetables, not pressure canning. And I'm not sure how you calculate time but I have this little app on my phone called a 'timer' that works remarkably well.

Dave's comments make perfect sense to me, but then I have been reading his comments for years.

Regarding a Ph meter, you can test the liquid or brine going into a jar all you want but the meter cannot take into account the Ph of the food and the amount of water inside the food. Both of which will change the Ph of the liquid/brine as the jars sit. When the Ph is measured by trained pros it is not as simple as sticking a meter in and getting a reading. Pickled eggs are a good example of this. There have been tests that show the brine being safe but the eggs sitting in the brine having a Ph well above 4.6 and they have caused botulism poisoning. Which brings us to food density.

Density is a very important factor when the people who test recipes are trying to come up with one that is safe. If you spend any time searching the NCHFP (National Center for Home Food Preservation) website you will come across several things that cannot be safely canned due to either being too dense or having inconsistent densisties. If an acidic brine cannot penetrate a food to bring its entire Ph down below 4.6 or if the food is too dense for heat to properly penetrate it then it cannot be considered safe. Pumpkin and winter squash puree, pumpkin butter, and summer squash and zucchini are just a couple that have density issues. The reason you are able to use a timer is because someone has already done all the guesswork for you and has ensured the resulting food is safe.

Rodney

MacD, I disagree with your view of teaching that ALL veggies must be pressure canned when even the newest of newbies understand the exceptions, and will discount your knowledge if you make a sweeping generalization that they know isn't true ALL the time.

Dave has consistently taught and advised here for a very long time, and has a broad knowledge of safety.

It seems to me that every once in a while, a newcomer who is full of himself will come here and try to take Dave down. A few months later, the snarky newcomer has gone to other pastures to create a ruckus because the rest of us have pantries full of pints and quarts of food due to Dave's (and others here also) knowledge and advice, and Dave and those others are still here giving us the benefit of their experience and knowledge.

Wow, these forums can get really nasty sometimes. Very stressful. There are ways to make points and corrections without tearing people down or being hoity toity snooty.

The National Center for Home Food Preservation is the gold standard. If you follow tested recipes (not just any old thing you see on online) you'll be safe. Food with a pH above 4.6 is not safe to water-bath can. Tomatoes can be water bath canned if you follow directions and add vinegar or bottled lemon juice. You can even can green beans if you make dilly beans, which involves pickling them in vinegar. Pickles and sauerkraut can be water-bath canned, but they're crunchier if you keep them in the fridge and don't heat them up. I am a Master Food Preserver, too, and safety is stressed in our training.

BTW, steam canners have been approved as safe (University of Wisconsin research) and they are a lot simpler to use than a water bath canner because you don't have to heat up as much water. Use the same directions for preparing the product and the same canning times as with a water bath canner.

@lgteacher "Food with a pH above 4.6 is not safe to water-bath can"

Thank you, I was beginning to think I had traveled to bizzaro world where everything was opposite of reality. I've just started getting into fermentation recipes this year and it's a fascinating process that people have been using for millennia. Its worth noting too that while the process is different (bacterial vs acidic ingredients) the end result is much the same as the beneficial bacteria break down the sugars and convert them to acids which preserve the food and prevent any nasty toxins from being able to develop.

Of course most food with a pH above 4.6 is not safe to water-bath can. No one said otherwise. However that is not the same as claiming "ALL vegetables should be processed using the pressure canning technique ONLY!" as you have done repeatedly.

All any of us have tried to point out to you is that, despite your claim, there are numerous tested and approved recipes for BWB processing of vegetables. And that is a vital distinction to be made for any readers here. As lgteacher pointed out NCHFP is the definitive source of home food preservation and those of us certified by that organization are well-versed in those guidelines (including the hazards of c. botulinum as well as the more common threat of listeria). No where in those guidelines does it state that "all vegetables should be processed using the pressure canning technique ONLY".

You, of course, are free to practice as you see fit, to disagree even. Though no one can claim to be the perfect communicator in this format and misunderstandings can develop, it is not appropriate to come here to lecture to anyone about how uninformed, condescending, and dangerous you may find them to be. That serves no useful purpose.

Dave

I agree that most vegetables and foods with a pH above 4.6 are not safe to can without a pressure canner. However, there is always an exception to every rule, it seems. The National Center for Home Food Preservation provides several recipes for salsa, for a tomato/vegetable juice, for hot pepper jelly, all of which contain ingredients with a pH above 4.6, yet are still rendered safe to can via hot water bath.

So, pronouncing an absolute and then pronouncing everyone else wrong is counterproductive and frankly, not particularly courteous. Dave has provided years of valuable information, as he has been trained to do, and operates with an abundance of caution. Some people, like me, tend to take measured risks, knowing the risks and choosing to accept that. That is my prerogative, but I do want to be informed of the risks and make my own decision regarding them.

Annie