Best type of glossy stain for tongue and groove patio ceiling

5 years ago

Hey guys I need some advice. I am building a house and have a patio that I want to do a tongue and groove wood ceiling on. I really don't want or like the exterior stains that look like paint. I can't see why an interior type of stain wouldn't work for a wood ceiling as its protected by the roof and not exposed to foot traffic but would like to hear input on this as well.

I really like the glossy shiny wood finishes that remind me a polyurethane wood floor. Something in the color vein of this ceiling example

I've surfed some forums and seen conflicting advice. Some people suggest a deck stain and some are suggesting a wood cabin manufacturer stain.

It seems houzz is covered in beautiful exterior tongue and groove ceilings but no info on what type of stain they used to achieve it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

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User

5 years ago

First, let's get terminology correct.

Stains are a coloring material. There are several types. Oil based, water based, and alcohol based are the main types. Then there are liquids and powdered varieties. Stains do not have any protective properties and have to be covered with a finish. There are many different finishes, some are oil based, some water based, some alcohol based and there is lacquer and different varieties of all the above.

Now, different woods take the different stains differently. The same stain on oak and pine will not look anything close to the same. A similar color of an oil based stain, a water based stain, and an alcohol based stain will also look different on the same species of wood. This is because different woods have different grain textures and grain chemistry, Soft wood absorbs stains more and better than hard woods. Oak/ash/pine/etc. have two different grain textures and seldom have an even color when stained(dark and lighter areas because of the less/more dense grain densities.

Then, the type of finish used over a colorant can and will change the tone of the colorant.

UV rays can and will fade colorants, even as reflected light.

Seems really complicated, doesn't it?

There is more. Most commercially applied colorants are not simply one color. Almost all are made up of several different colors to get the desired result. Example, I installed factory rough pine trim in a house that was shipped already stained. The amount shipped was short by about 60 feet(they forgot the interior door trim for five doors). I contacted the factory and they sent me the recipe---four different stains mixed in specific quantities. Their recipe made several gallons, I had to reduce the amounts to make two quarts.

So, you can do what you want, you just have to use the best type of stain and the right recipe and finish for the wood you select. The wood in the example you linked is cedar(and may not be colored) and probably has an oil based poly or spar varnish finish.

It will be quite difficult to get that look with another type wood, regardless of colorants and finish.

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Comments (24)

PRO
Anglophilia
5 years ago
You're talking about using a varnish that will protect your stained wood ceiling. If it is exposed to the elements, you can either use a marine spar varnish, or a water-resistant exterior polyurethane. I would opt for the spar varnish. It will give you that hard, gloomy look that great bright work has on a vintage boat.
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James Petty
Original Author
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
great feedback I appreciate it. So I didn't know what a spar varnish was but found this great article for anyone that stumbles on this thread.

https://thecraftsmanblog.com/spar-varnish-vs-regular-varnish/

Anglo would you suggest a brand I should consider for a spar varnish?

Also one other questions. I plan to use pine tongue and groove. I definitely want a stain, it appears the spar varnish is just for the finish. So I would need to select a stain first then finish with a coat of the spar varnish, is that correct?

Any suggestions on stain options? I've looked at sherwin williams for example and not happy with their exterior stain choices. Also seems to be a bit thick and more paintlike.

thanks!
James Petty
Original Author
5 years ago
HandyMac could you suggest a stain brand I could look into based on what you know of my goals?
PRO
Anglophilia
5 years ago
Yes, stain first, varnish second. I haven’t used spar varnish in years (no longer own a boat) so can’t recommend a brand. I’m sure they’re all pretty good.
James Petty
Original Author
5 years ago
What about the stain, any type you would suggest if I am going to use spar varnish?
PRO
Anglophilia
5 years ago
Talk to your paint store!!! They're the experts!
James Petty
Original Author
5 years ago
Funny, I found them to be really worthless
User
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
I can't be sure but the OP may be confusing wood siding and deck "stain" (that has pigments, resins/oil binders that create a one-step application of weather resistant exterior finish similar to paint) with interior wood furniture, flooring and paneling "stain" (that often consists of dyes dissolved or suspended in solvents and requires a clear protective finish that contains resins in a vehicle or solvent i.e. varnish).

When T&G interior fir or pine paneling is used for an exterior porch ceiling, it is often not stained but finished with a clear spar varnish since the wood naturally darkens with age. A wood stain applied to fir or pine may not be absorbed uniformly. A wood conditioner can help with the uneven staining. The conditioner as well as the stain should be applied before the ceiling is installed.

I recommend using clear T&G (possibly with a bead) vertical-grain fir unstained with a clear spar varnish (not acrylic) finish and let it darken uniformly.
User
5 years ago
If there is a Woodcraft store within 20 or so miles, pay that store a visit and explain your situation. There are problems that crop up when staining pine. Blotching is a huge problem, because of the grain density differences.

Here is an example of pine stained with Minwax Early American oil based stain and two coats of amber shellac. That is actually brand new wood which I 'antique'---so I never worry about the blotching.

To even the color, a prestain conditioner needs to be used. The brand and type of conditioner depends on the wood, since all pine wood is not created equally. The prestain conditioner limits the amount of stain absorbed by the wood, which means a stain color will be different from unconditioned wood.

Now, there are also wood dyes, which may be the better choice for your project. That is why I suggested Woodcraft, since they stock all kinds of stains and dyes, and generally have an experienced person to help with the situation.

Take several pieces of the pine you are using(4" long pieces will be fine). And a picture of the color you want(remember, getting a cedar color with pine will be difficult). They may do tests with you, or sell you samples to test yourself. Because you will need to experiment with conditioners, colorant, and finishes.

Epifanes is a pretty good mid range priced spar varnish. Better, IMHO, than Helmsman or other store carried brands. The exceptions may be hardware store brands and paint store brands.
James Petty
Original Author
5 years ago
there is a woodcraft store fairly close to my house so I will swing by there and talk with them. Thanks for the feedabck
User
5 years ago
IMO its a mistake to use a glossy finish on a ceiling especially on pine or fir.
Rachel Dumas
4 years ago
I noticed this is an old conversation but had to see if handymac might give me advise. Seems know one around here knows much about staining pine and putting a urethane on a pine tongue and groove for out doors ceiling including our builder.
I am having a house built and have 800sq feet of out door ceiling that was stained with Minwax special walnut and they finished with Minwax polyurethane which is for interior only. I reason figured out that they used the interior polyurethane was because I noticed the ceiling kept getting lighter (kind of looks orange now). They left some cans behind so I read on them and found out that interior polyurethane was used.
I talked to the painter about it and he said that’s the way they have done it for years. I told him that doesn’t make it right. This is very frustrating to me because they make me feel like I am over reacting. So what I was wanting to know is if you know anyone that has used interior polyurethane on a outdoor ceiling and how long it lasted and do you have advise for fixing my ceiling so it will last me for several years. Thanks so much! Rachel
User
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
The Minwax clear finish for outdoor use is called Helmsman Spar Urethane. Its essentially softer and more flexible than interior polyurethane so it can better accommodate movement in the wood and has ingredients that protect against UV light from the sun.

I doubt it makes much difference what kind of polyurethane is used on a porch ceiling but make sure it was solvent-based/oil-modified (commonly called oil-based) instead of water-based.
Rachel Dumas
4 years ago
Thank you.
They used Minwax Fast Drying Polyurethane. The can says for interior use only.
Rachel Dumas
4 years ago
Do you think we need to sand off the polyurethane then put the helmsman spar urethane?
PRO
Fieldstone Management
4 years ago
If you sand a stained tongue and groove ceiling, especially if its beadboard, you will have a lot of trouble getting it to look even. You may end up with something unusable. If you can live with the current poly, I would just stick with it. The color is going to change with new poly and it may give you something equally problematic. If you decide you want to mess with sanding it, make sure you find someone who really knows that they are doing and test the products first using some scrap wood.
Rachel Dumas
4 years ago
Thanks! I think our ceiling is fixed now. We hadsome professionals come over and sand all the polyurethane off. Then they applied the Helmsman Spar. We decided not to apply the special walnut stain after discussing it with the pro. We didn’t want to chance splotchy stain. This took awhile but Looks beautiful! I will try to take a picture of it tomorrow so if anyone wants to see they can.
palfyc
4 years ago
I would love to see a picture. We are considering special walnut
Rachel Dumas
4 years ago
The first picture is special walnut with interior polyurethane and was taken right after it was done. This first picture is the color I was wanting but it faded because they put interior polyurethane. We had the interior polyurethane sanded off and had helmsman spar urethane put on. The second picture is what it looks like today.
jgo1104
3 years ago
Anyone recommend a clear spar varnish/urethane for unfinished pine porch ceiling?
Madonna Powers
3 years ago
I enjoyed reading all the commentary. I learned alot especially about the use of varnish. It is an old school finish that uses resins to protect the wood with the added benefit of a leaving the wood with a lovely patina as well as adding a drama to the hue.

A comment up the chain aptly likened it to the look of wood on his boat.

In addition to varnishes I love using gel stains when i want to add a stain. The viscosity or gel quality allows longer curing period and therefore enough application time to greater control than regular stain products.

I have also had excellent effects with gel stain on painted wood. If you work with it the look mimics wood quite convincingly.
Lisa
3 years ago
I am going to use a one coat siding stain by Sansin on a Cedar Tongue and Groove patio ceiling. It will not get direct sun or moisture. Is it recommended to use a Spar Varnish on top? It is November, I am in California, but I am concerned with mold or mildew..
Madonna Powers
3 years ago
Im not an expert but Ive always been recommended the spar varnish.

please let us see the finished product

Best type of glossy stain for tongue and groove patio ceiling

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Best type of glossy stain for tongue and groove patio ceiling

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