For a 2 1/2 ton, i find the pricing absurd and the wrong model air handler quoted. Nothing said about thermostat quoted. I assume you have boiler heat for Boston area. What type of system are you replacing? Ductwork existing? Attic location for air handler?

IMO

So this would be tying into an Ecobee3 thermostat. I have a high efficiency boiler that was installed a year and a half ago and hits 95-98% efficiency. I have no system in place and no ductwork existing. It would be an attic location for the air handler though.

Well, since ductwork is not existing, that makes a price difference. What insulation value for attic ductwork? What kind of ductwork? All flex is a negative and I would not have it. And again, that is wrong mdl air handler quoted. You want the TAM7 or TEM6 model. Should be less expensive!

IMO

They didn’t say, but I guess since I can’t get it done till the winter with them I have a bit of time. What’s the difference between TAM7 and 9?

I had a Trane XR16 (4ton) and S9V2 furnace installed in April for $8200 and $600 in rebates bringing cost to $7600. Is also included a new Aprilaire media filter. Our markets are different (I am outside Chicago) and I didn’t need any duct work done. I don’t know how much duct work you are getting but the price seems high, but perhaps that’s the market out there.

So far, AC has been great. Installed on a concrete pad and quiet compared to my old system. The only AC I hear coming on is my neighbors!

Check your utility companies for any rebates.

for Nick

the TAM9 is a communicating air handler. Not trying to get down in the weeds but the XL16i is not a communicating AC condenser. In other words dealer is trying to sell you something you don't need if staying with the XL16i. I do recommend a non communicating Var speed air handler like the TAM7 or TEM6 and the 824 Trane thermostat.

IMO

For Tiger

So, I asked the installer about the TAM7 and TEM6 and this was their response: The TAM9 has taken over the TAM7 I can look at the TEM6 but to my knowledge we've never installed one of those.

Also Tiger - My other option through this installer is the Mitsubishi setup this would be a slim duct system for the 3 bedrooms on one side of the house and then one wall unit in the living room/kitchen area and that would cover everything.

• - CEC & Utility rebates are the responsiblity of the homeowner. We will assist you with the paperwork process when the job is complete. Rebates are subject to change. Please do your due diligence to ensure accurate rebates and procedures. ($0.00)

  - CEC Mitsubishi MXZ-4C36NAHZ mixed ($2,343.00)

• Net Investment: $11,763

Hi all - just wanted to circle back. Do I save $1,000 extra and go XR16 or is it worth getting the xl16i?

What does one get with the XL16i over the XR16? Basically they are the same condenser on the inside. You do get an extra 2 yr warranty on compressor, 10 to 12 yr plus Trane's proprietary top which I like and have at my home. Worth an extra $1k? Not in my opinion. I would offer him 500-600 bux and see if dealer bites. He should.

IMO

@Tiger - So I asked him just as you said to do and he's going to do it for me. So, this is what he is willing to give me.

Trane XL16i with the TAM9 installed January 2-4 2019 for $14,000 flat.

Thoughts?

Again I have mentioned this before. The XR16 and XL16i are non communicating AC condensers. Why does dealer seem intent on pairing with TAM9 communicating air handler? What thermostat is proposed? Any box media cabinet? Dealer is charging you dearly for ductwork. What type of insulation rating? What type of ductwork is speced? Did you receive any other quotes? Are you dead set on a Trane or Am Standard?

IMO

He told me they have been using the TAM9 without issue. He said TAM7 is discontinued and he hasn't really done a ton with the others. He was just going to connect to my Ecobee3 thermostat. I dont know what insulating or anything about the ductwork. I got 6 quotes they were middle of the range....I got some just slightly cheaper and then a few a lot more. I like Trane because my father in law has this model and has had really great luck that's why I felt pretty good about it. Everyone in my neighborhood has Trane...that seems to be the standard.

New ductwork with 2 1/2 Ton XL16i Trane AC with var speed air handler for $14 K. Boston area location. Any comment here from other forum regulars?

TD

It is hard to estimate how much labor and material is needed for the new duct work. The OP received 6 quotes. This one was competitive with the others.

For some reason this installer only wants to use the TAM9. Nothing wrong with it except for the cost.

I find it interesting the installer has proposed January 2 and not a mild day in the fall to do the installation. He is not going to be able to charge and test the system if the temperature is below 50 degrees.

Mike - so, they are booked solid till October. And said if I wait till January he’d take $1,000 off probably their slow time. I just asked him for more info on the ductwork. I’ll report back.

with this package I get 2 free years of service for not only my AC but also my boiler which wasn’t even installed by them. He said it’s $375 a year for the service, but is giving me 2 years free normally it’s only 1.

Tiger - heard back regarding ductwork.

The insulation is R-8 code for attics. We use sheetmetal ductwork for all of our installations with flex for return and within 6-8ft of supplies to hook to our registers. We use infrared diagnostics out of Sudbury to do our pressure tests.

As far as ductwork, that seems OK. Pricing not so much...

IMO

New ductwork with 2 1/2 Ton XL16i Trane AC with var speed air handler for $14 K. Boston area location. Any comment here from other forum regulars?

New construction or old construction without existing ducts from what I've read it sounds like the area is under AC load for short duration and has more concern for heating. (Boston Area)

Trane is nothing special in my opinion. It's not a bad product when installed properly. Some areas have better distributor infrastructure than competing brands do in certain areas.

Trane comes at a premium just like all major brands. I don't think they are any more reliable than anything else that's my personal opinion. I don't know that a higher end AC for the Boston area is really worth the expense. Your summer is probably at best 3 months of the year. So I think this really comes down to personal choice and the bells and whistles you want.

My preference is Amana, mainly because they don't give me warranty related hassles and the warranties are better. (Conditional life time replacement for higher end equipment.) The other side of this is that the manufacturing facility is a stones throw from where I live, so I know wait times to get parts will be short no matter what.

Trane units are assembled in Tyler, Texas so as long as the distributor has the parts in stock you should be ok, but if it's a part that doesn't often fail you could be in for a wait to get the part you need being in Boston. But this is probably true for any manufacturer you might choose.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Thanks it’s an old construction that just never had AC installed. I had a Utica high efficiency boiler put in 11/2016 that’s worked wonders. I got 6 quotes that ranged from 13k to 20k all for the same system give or take.

I don't know much about the Mitsubishi slim duct system, but I'd be tempted given your cost and the performance I've seen from my seven Mitsu mini splits. Humidity control is splendid. Comfort is splendid. You've probably seen the value of variable output equipment in your boiler.

There are some overlooked extras that come with variable-speed compressors like mine. Start-up surge is virtually nonexistent allowing use of relatively small backup gensets to run them. I've watched the current with a meter and when running on backup power, I never hear a bog that is related to the AC operation, only other big loads. That in addition to the modular nature (I have three compressors) allows me to run a good deal of my cooling system along with refrigerator, freezer and small loads very easily with a 5 kW genset. I might be able to support the whole system (4.25 tons) at the same time if I unplugged the coolers. It would be close.

Off topic, but what Utica boiler did you install? Did your old heat transfer system plug into the new boiler and play well, or did you need to do significant modifications?

Thanks for the input. I went with the UBSSC-100. My old system was a hydrotherm from 1970’s. Literally only 60% efficiency. My state gave me $3500 to upgrade the boiler. Everything was moved in the basement and repiped down there for the hookup all except 2 lines that he just extended and moved over. I am trying to post a picture, but it doesn’t seem to be letting me

Thanks it’s an old construction that just never had AC installed.

Given that, the Mitsubishi maybe be the best choice. I've stated many times that I am not a fan of mini splits, but in some cases they are a good choice for what they are. (If the reasons for use fits).

Obviously any break down of these units and you could be in for a longer wait time to repair to get parts. For this reason you definitely want a contractor with a strong relationship with this brand.

With that said, as far as efficiency goes the Mitsubishi is more efficient than the Trane option and you're getting zoning to boot (multi head) obviously the head on the wall can be a hindrance to decoration and such. So consider that too.

If you can avoid the ducted option SEER rating comes in just over 19 SEER. The versatility of this kind of machine also speaks volumes (out door temps) it can perform at.

or down to negative 13F for heating.

Nat gas or oil boiler?...

My wife can’t get over looking at the headers in the wall. We were going Mitsubishi but she really can’t stand anything on the wall which moved us away from it sadly.

its a natural gas boiler. My plumber was able to hit a 98% efficiency rating

The OP wants to cool 3 bedrooms and a living room and kitchen area. If you install a mini split then it is either multiple heads which becomes expensive, or combination of the slim duct and one head. The OP also has a very nice gas boiler, so the mini split would only be used for cooling given the Boston area's high electric rates.

The Trane system has a with the XL16i has an EER of 14.5 versus the Mitsubishi duct and non-duct combination of 12.67. The only area where the Mitsubishi may win is on price and installation date.

I think the Trane split system is the better choice.

When you specify "slim duct" you are referring to the same mini split systems with their minimally-ducted, low static pressure "pizza box" AHU that generally serve one or two rooms? One nice thing about those is that you can sometimes find space to stick them that is not in the attic.

I have to confess that I am not trying to understand some of the thermostat discussion for the duct-based system. I am thinking that you might not be able to make your cooling system and your boiler both work optimally with a single thermostat. Both systems might use communicating thermostats that are specific to the individual manufacturers. More here will be familiar with the cooling equipment thermostats. I see a lot of exchanges about them.

Modulating boilers can use a combination of control strategies to keep them at low fire where they are most efficient. They can use autonomous and feed-back controls. Both strategies are improved by learning capability and an outdoor reset (temperature sensor).

The thermostat can feed back room temperature and be used to determine how close to set point the living space is and how fast the system is approaching it. if the boiler gets a call for heat, it might start up and maintain water temperature at 120 F. Depending on how it is set up, if the differential between the set point is too great, and the closure rate is to slow, it will ramp up the water temp stepwise until the temperature target closure rate is better.

If the boiler can't be told what the temperature is in the living space, they can be set up to adjust autonomously by changing water temperature in response to longer run times. Assume that you are recovering from a set-back. The boiler turns on and is still running at its most efficient water temperature and lowest fire rate after a settable period (an hour or a half?) so it turns up the water temperature, still running a half hour later so it ups the setting again..... This can work, but it obviously does not work as well yielding poorer comfort and lower efficiency. Just for example, the closure rate to the set temperature might be reasonably good on one day and reach the set point in another 15 minutes at low fire, but the boiler has been working at a lower efficiency/higher fire for that 15 minutes when it was really not necessary. It might even overshoot the set temp. Given that the aim is to have a boiler as constantly burning as possible, with little or no cycling on and off, it clearly can't work as well as a feed-back, closed loop control.

OP, that is a pretty big boiler considering the same line comes in 75 and 50k versions. You must have pretty large heat demands for residential. I think that you are lucky to have such high efficiency with a retrofit boiler without any revisions in the balance of the system. I'll guess you have a big house that's seen a lot of improvements in the home envelope, insulation, windows and doors, air sealing, but still have all the original heat emitters or very much oversized replacements. That boiler, from the factory, can be set to use its integral primary loop to protect the heat exchanger from excessively cool water or to bypass it. It appears that it could be set to use its internal pump to provide the coolest water possible at the primary heat exchanger.

That’s really interesting. So, I’m not sure why he went with that model on the boiler. The house is 2200 square feet total not big by any means and a split entry. I did replace all 19 windows and doors though when I moved in, I added newer insulation, and there was already blown in everywhere in the walls and attic.

I do have to say say I like my heating bill in the winter a lot more though! It use to be 240-270 on the old hydrotherm and is now 110-150 and I have the heat up higher.

Yes, big improvement. The advantage of having all the original radiation, in case it is not obvious to you, is that after envelope improvements, you need lower heat delivery so you can run the radiators at a lower temp and get enough heat delivery. It does not work nearly as well with aluminum fin-tube convectors as it does with cast iron, however. The heat output from the former is not linear with respect to temperature and falls off sharply at the low end probably because, guess what? They require induced convection of air and that apparently does not happen well at lower temps.

I had a 1320 sq ft, much improved, 1959 ranch evaluated in a clime that is probably considerably colder than yours (near the North end of the Allegheny Plateau) a few years ago. Heat loss was calculated to be about 47 kBTU/h and the original boiler output was 74 k. My fuel use calculation was much lower, however, and should be more reliable at just below 30 kBTU. That, however, was underestimated by the fact that the occupants bailed out of a very nice, window-rich sun room on the coldest evenings of winter and closed it's entry door-grade doors connecting to the rest of the house. That means that a real load without those room use restrictions is probably between 35 and 40. (They used that room to heat the rest of the house on sunny-bright arctic high winter days.) Cooling load was about 17 kBTU/h. Due to the fact that it had three zones, if I had to work with it now, I might try one of these and install a second one to make hot water or use a heat exchanger and in indirect tank:

Westinghouse WGR060NG076

Do you have a buffer tank in the system to prevent short cycling? On your coldest days, was the boiler running constantly at low, medium or high fire? (Your system may have that info available if you care about it.) The real boiler fanatics like to see their systems fire up in the fall and run nearly continuously until after the spring thaw.

If you can't figure out what the Utica boiler strategy is by looking at the literature, and you are interested, you might find some help at heatinghelp.com and terrylove.com.

Why I use SEER rating instead of EER rating.

The difference between EER and SEER is the “S”, which stands for seasonal. Rather than measuring the energy efficiency of an air conditioner at one operating temperature, SEER is the calculation of how energy efficient the air conditioner is during the cooling season at varying temperatures.

Do you know of any Summer (the time in which you run the air conditioner) that has had a constant summer time temperature outdoors?

SEER rating takes into account the cooling season at varying temperatures.

EER rating is to confuse amateurs.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

The SEER ratings for the two Trane and Mitsubishi systems under consideration are 17 and 17.45 respectively. That's a difference of less than 3%. The potential difference in operating costs would be small in a typical Boston summer, and probably non-existent during a very hot summer.

You are correct about SEER versus EER ratings. A SEER rating would be a better measure of operating costs in a climate like Boston. But EER would be a better measure of operating costs where the summer highs are consistently at 95 degrees like they are in Katy, Texas.

Mike we also have consistent lows in the mid to upper 70's at night here in Katy, Texas. You know the sun sets everyday like clockwork.... it doesn't stay 95 degrees here around the clock. It's a close comparison to hell, but not quite. LOL.

So I use SEER in Katy, Texas too.

The point is the EER rating is calculated at 95 degree outdoor temperature only, whereas the SEER rating is a broad range of temperatures. If the temperatures are consistently in the mid 90s in the summer, then the EER rating should be considered as a measure of efficiency. Maybe this is one of the reasons the US Government has decided the minimum SEER rating in the southern states needs to be 14 compared to 13 in the north as a way of compensating for the north and south summer seasons.

I find it interesting that two pieces of equipment will have the same SEER rating, but different EER ratings. You would think they should track each other. You say EER is to confuse amateurs, yet I have not been able to find the test conditions for the SEER rating. If you have a source as to how it is calculated then please post it. I would like to satisfy my own curiosity.

As a side note, New Jersey offers a rebate to homeowners who install efficient AC systems. The rebate has two tiers, 16 or 18 SEER and a 13 EER rating for both. The 13 EER is a tough standard to meet for mid range equipment. The Mitsubishi system would not qualify, but the Trane system would.

Mike, have you done a comparison
between how differing categories of equipment differ with respect to SEER and
EER relationship? The best way to explain my thoughts might be to use a
specific characteristic. Compare two
condensing/compressor units. One has a variable speed fan motor and the
other not. The latter needs to optimize air flow for the harshest
condition so it is using a lot of electricity all the time, even on relatively
mild days with relatively high t-stat settings in a work-time "set back".
The former dials back the blower speed using less energy in the low
demand times. That could lead to higher SEER: EER ratio for the equipment
with an ECM motor compared the fixed speed similar efficiencies may be
found with a variable speed compressors.
I think that is a decent hypothesis. To be science, it has to be a
testable hypothesis.

Now with fixed characteristics. The characteristics like the size and pitch
of fan and blower wheel blades and flow characteristics may be optimized for a
particular speed or output from an energy standpoint.

Maybe this is one of the reasons the US Government has decided the minimum SEER rating in the southern states.....

Then why would the US Government use the SEER rating as opposed to EER? You've answered your own question more or less.

SEER and EER mean the same thing more or less, the only difference as stated earlier is the S which means seasonal. (So not only do you have daily changes in temperature, but also seasonal.)

Weathermen have been tracking temperatures for a long time. This is how they know when a new high or low record occurs. These changes can then be taken to determine a good estimate as to the efficiency of the equipment while operating. They know based on set point of 75 degree indoor this area will have equipment run times of 2200 hours. (Houston area specific) This changes from one climate to another based on set points, ambient conditions etc.

The US Government decides on minimum SEER ratings for a variety of reasons, one of which is to off set the load on the electrical grid. The south, especially Texas in particular has crazy growth rates compared to other northern climates.

So as there is growth, the more efficient the equipment, the less strain there is on the electric grid (which is under immense strain during heat waves) brown outs, and rolling black outs would make for civic unrest and you'd have a mess on your hands like the world has never seen in a state that depends on air conditioning for upwards of 10 months of the year.

Efficiency also keeps those electric bills down, so it's not a bad thing in that respect either. If you save $50 on your light bill, you spend that $50 some where else. Which in turn supports another part of the economy.

Manufacturer's could fudge an EER number. For one you would need to know what constant temperature they selected for the EER number. Because remember this figure is determined by a 'constant temperature'.

You could select 80 degrees. Everyone knows that at 80 degree ambient an air conditioner has a slightly higher capacity at lower temps. So what happens if the manufacturer changed it to 78 degrees. It would give you a slightly better EER.

There are a few manufacturers that do not divulge these kinds of numbers. Why do you suppose that is? (to dupe the uninformed.) what other reason could there be? fill in the blank.

Ray you really piqued my interest in SEER versus EER. The topic can be debated in its own posting so let's not hijack this one for now. I am going to share what I have learned so far as a conclusion to this discussion.

The method of how SEER and EER are to be measured is described in AHRI Standard 240/210. The latest version was released in 2017. EER is measured with an outside temperature of 95 degrees. Manufacturers can't set their own temperature to make their equipment look good. EER is to an AC as what the COP measurement is for a heat pump. The only exception is COP ratings are done at two temperatures, and EER is only done at one.

The SEER measurements are done at 8 different temperatures. The key is that each temperature is weighted by a percentage and not an average. If you read the document you will see most of the data is derived from low outdoor operating temperatures. This explains why SEER and EER ratings don't track each other in a linear relationship.

Then why would the US Government use the SEER rating as opposed to EER?

That's a good question. I think it has to do with the US Government's push for higher efficiency equipment, and the push back from manufacturers on how their equipment would be rated. For single stage equipment, SEER and EER may have a close relationship. But for multiple and variable stage equipment a big contribution of the SEER rating comes from the lower stage or stages. But EER is always at the high stage due to the 95 degree requirement. This is why you see a big increase in SEER, but a small increase in EER when comparing low end to high end equipment. So what has happened, in my opinion, the manufacturers are using the SEER rating to help promote multiple stage equipment and use it as a method to up sell to increase their sales. But in reality the cost savings of a 13 SEER versus a 16 SEER AC will depend on the cooling season in your climate.

We can debate whether the SEER measurement is a more accurate representation of a "season" versus the one data point of the EER. But in my opinion the EER rating is important especially in climates where the daily summer highs are in the 90s.

Some areas of the country rarely hit the 95 degree threshold. So it's like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion. SEER is more accurate. But nothing is perfect. Temperatures vary more than you could write a formula to cover it.

If it rains what happens to out door temperature?

If clouds cover the sun what happens to outdoor temperature?

Sun rises in east / sets in the west: what happens to temperature?

These things happen through out the summer and as seasonal changes come and go there are additional changes from there.

Hi Nick,

I just ran across this post. I am also in the MetroWest area looking at Trane/Carrier quotes right now for a split-entry similar to what you've described. I know this thread is from last summer, but I'm wondering if you could message me with the companies that you looked at and who you ended up going with? The quotes I'm getting are a fair bit higher than what you mentioned here for what appears to be an extremely similar situation.

Thanks,

-Curt