Post-flood surprise kitchen remodel for family of 5, planning help ple
We weren’t planning to remodel our kitchen this year, but several months ago we had a dishwasher flood. We will be having the wood flooring replaced and the cabinets replaced.
Since living with a torn-up kitchen, we have realized how inefficient our old layout was. It was a U-shape and did not lend itself to having more than one cook in the kitchen. The cabinets in the corners were very difficult to access. The main thing we liked about the layout was seating for our three children at the breakfast bar.
Kitchen mission statement:
Our kitchen is a tidy, clean, and fresh. It is a welcoming space where we gather to cook, eat, do homework or projects, and spend time together.
Family composition:
Two adults and three children 13, 11, 8.
One family member has celiac disease. This kitchen uses gluten products but not loose flour. There is a toaster that is gluten only, and gluten bread is available.
We would like to accommodate multiple cooks/cleanup crew.
We are high use kitchen users. Both husband and wife enjoy cooking. We probably eat one meal out a week as a family, 1-2 work lunches out per week for adults, and the rest of the meals are made at home. We also do big batch cooking, e.g., roasting vegetables or protein ahead of time and eating during the week.
We would like our kitchen to be a place where people can pull up a chair to sit and chat, or help (or do homework). After the dishwasher flood, we found ourselves replacing our breakfast bar with a folding table and chairs -- it is that important to us and used frequently.
We entertain informally (other families) and frequently host another kid or two for a playdate/dinner/sleepover.
We have a separate dining room and use it every night for dinner. It is not an overly formal space, but it has a big table with plenty of room (seats 8 and expands to 10). It’s a nice place to reconnect at the end of the day without distractions. We also use the table frequently to play games.
We don’t have a plan to make structural changes.
Dream list would include: an area for lunches/snacks to be packed that would be not in the way of the main cooking zone. A possible “gluten zone” for bread and toaster to live in (one family member has Celiac disease).
Previous layout:
We had a U shaped kitchen which felt very inefficient. Hard to use corner cabinets, hard for more than one person to work in the kitchen.
We are considering:
- Changing from a 30” range to a 36” range, due to the amount of cooking we do. It seems like it may be excessive, but we also realize that it may be the kind of thing that you appreciate more after you have it.
- Ventilation hood (for whatever range we get)
- Changing pantry to appliance closet, including microwave.
- We will keep our fridge (full-size, not counter depth) and dishwasher
- Reducing the number of (or eliminating entirely) upper cabinets that were along the walls that have the refrigerator and dishwasher
PANTRY
Our current pantry is a closet that is narrow but deep and it is difficult to reach items. We would like to convert this to a closet to store small appliances such as Instant Pot, Kitchen Aid Mixer, blender, etc. We would like to add an outlet for the microwave. (Other appliances would be removed before using.) We would like to plan a pull-out pantry that could be used to store food.
ISLAND
We would like an island with sink, dishwasher, and seating for 3-5.
We are unsure as to whether we can find room for a small table in addition to the island. Ideally this would seat 5.
If we put more seating at the island we do not feel like we need a table in this room.
If there isn’t another table, I like the idea of a couple of chairs that would be comfortable for adults to sit in and have coffee if kids are hosting friends for a movie/videogames in the front room.
SPACE WITH POTENTIAL
There is an area next to the pantry that we would like to have upper/lower cabinets and a countertop. I would like to have a cabinet that would keep our printer tucked away. I could see this as a possible area for toaster/coffeemaker or could imagine it as an area where we have lunch making supplies (and maybe kids’ snacks) for packing that would be away from the stove/sink/dishwasher.
Other considerations:
The side of the kitchen with the appliances has no windows. The other side of the room is ALL windows (they start about a foot from the ground). There are also two skylights and a high/sloped ceiling on this side of the room (beginning at the exterior side wall and extending to the doorway that leads to the dining room). There is such a big contrast between the bright/natural light on one side of the room and the lack thereof on the other. We want to plan lighting solutions to help address this.
The ceiling on the appliance side of the kitchen is 9 feet.
The kitchen is at the back of the house with a door out to a back deck, french doors out to a covered side porch, a pass-through to the dining room, and an opening to the hallway.
Goals:
Drawer storage for dishes and pans
Improve lighting in kitchen
Seating for 3-5 at island
Space for multiple cooks to work
Optimizing island, specifically the sink/dishwasher placement
Planning an efficient use of the “space with potential”
Here is the kitchen layout.
GAS, HW/CW/DRAIN, and E(lectric) are marked and each square represents 6".
And the kitchen in the context of the house
Comments (16)
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Comments (25)KathyNY76, We looked at the option of a longer island and would love to have been able to do that. The biggest issue the width of the kitchen. If you look at GreenDesigns drawing, the door that swings open would actually only leave a few inches of space between the door and island. The current island is only 30" from the base cabinets as it stands now, hence why we are considering eliminating it. The issue is the drawings I posted show a little more room width wise than what is actually there. My apologizes for this. For a better sense of what I am referring to, here are a few pics reposted. This is facing the wall where the peninsula is shown in the drawings. The wall is not load bearing. This is facing the same wall from the kitchen. There is currently 30" of space between bottom cabinets and island. This is facing in opposite direction. We usually use this door to come into the house. So given the above, any changes in opinion?...See MoreHarvey flood person - need kitchen remodel help
Comments (23)I'm very sorry about your Aunt's home! Between Harvey, Irma, and now Maria, so many people have been devastated! It seems like everyone I know has at least one relative or friend affected by one of these hurricanes (including me -- my niece & colleagues by Irma.) Regarding the designs above, I like MamaGoose's the best. It eliminates one corner and gives your Aunt better work space in general where she needs it the most. It also minimizes wasted counterspace that narrows the usable Kitchen floor space (which also makes it a bit tight and, possibly, claustrophobic). There's also more space to move around and allows more than one person in the Kitchen without someone being trapped, which is important in a Kitchen. The portable cart is a nice idea....See MoreRemodeling our kitchen after a flood
Comments (1)It's too late to delete this thread...see the following (earlier) thread that contains more information: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5366421/post-flood-surprise-kitchen-remodel-for-family-of-5-planning-help-ple Please comment on the earlier thread as that one has more of the information we need as well as previous comments. Let's not have two threads with information scattered b/w the two of them. Jon -- if you feel strongly about using this thread, tell us why and then transfer the information from the earlier thread to this one....See MorePlease help. Small budget, small family home kitchen partial remodel.
Comments (14)Perhaps I wasnt clear. I'm looking for layout suggestions because Im aware that I need to add countertop and cabinents. L or galley? I like this color, I'm not repainting. Kind of pointless to add a backsplash when money needs to be spent on cabinets. no? The color is not an issue it's the lack of cabinets and countertops. Pantry cabinets to the left of the fridge would extend into the doorway. So you would turn into the kitchen and into the side of cabinetry? I'll add additional images with measurements. Currently there is a double sink and the plans reflect a single sink. Yes the stainless appliances are the new pictures....See MoreRelated Professionals
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6 years agolast modified: 6 years agoCould you please add measurements to the layout above? We could "count boxes", but partial boxes are a guess and inches count! Include trim measurements in the doors/doorways/windows.
Something like this:
Jon M thanked Buehl- 6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
This is my first try with some layout software. Hopefully it makes sense. I have not marked electrical, gas, or water in this drawing.
We have a temporary island that was installed after the demo work was done. It will be removed and replaced with a permanent one.
The main questions we have are: 1) the placement and size of the island, 2) can we put a table in there somewhere if we have an island that seats 3-5, and 3) what can we do with the space to the left of the double closet?
Thank you for your thoughts!
Jon
- 6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
Jon -- could you please also include dimensions of each window/door/doorway/wall segment and the distances b/w each window/door/doorway/wall segment? Those are key measurements.
Since you did not mark the gas, water, etc., I assume all these things can be moved...correct? If not, then please add them to the layout with measurements like in the sample layout for the "post". If you have a basement under the Kitchen, you can pretty easily and inexpensively move water & gas. If you're on a slab, it's more difficult & expensive. However, if nothing can be changed, your options are limited.
Your questions cannot be answered without working up layouts to see if you can fit all your wants and still have a functional space for the 5 of you.
What's more important to you....table space in the Kitchen or an island that seats 3 to 5? (I assume the island, but I'm double-checking!)
- 6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
- 6 years ago
- 6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
OK, I counted boxes, but I doubt all measurements are exactly in 6" increments (with a couple 3"), so I'm not sure how accurate the measurements really are....that's why we need you to label the actual (as-measured with a measuring tape) measurements, not just leave it to us to figure them out. (Remember, we're all volunteers here and it took me quite a while to count all those tiny boxes on the very light picture.)
In particular, by counting boxes, the bottom wall segment is 10'0", yet the layout you did with a few measurements says it's only 9'7". Those 3" may not seem like much, but if there are similar discrepancies throughout, they could add up to bigger differences, which could have a major impact on what can actually be done in the space. (ETA: There's a 6" difference on the 16' top wall.)
Please verify the measurements if you would like more help.
Jon M thanked Buehl - 6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
- 6 years ago
- 6 years ago
6 years ago- 6 years agolast modified: 6 years ago
I worked a design up that I think meets all your needs & wants except the cozy nook with comfortable chairs. More on that below...
A few comments b/f I post my design.
Pantry...
You want a pullout pantry instead of a built-in pantry. However, a built-in pantry with shallow shelves (12"D) is much more useful -- it's more efficient & flexible storage, holds much more, is much more functional, and is much less expensive to build and maintain. In addition, you have very limited wall space and given all your wants, a pullout pantry would make your Kitchen function worse, not better.
I do not know where your front door is (it's not one of the spaces you included in your sketch), but the "Front Closet" doesn't seem to be in a particularly useful location. Plus, with 5 people and the paraphernalia associated with them (especially school-age children!), it seems too small. We have one that's wider than yours (48" vs 40") and it's useless for a family of 4. It's turned into a catch-all for things no one knows where to put away -- something I should have changed when we redid our Kitchen but didn't think about. (I've been debating turning it into an auxiliary pantry instead of the one in the basement.)
Based on above, I'm going to suggest that you merge the current Pantry and Front Closet into one Pantry. It could hold both food and small appliances and could also house the printer -- keeping it out of sight but still in the open for ease of use. (With the exception of my toaster oven, all my small appliances fit in my pantry on 12" deep shelves -- blender, breadmaker, coffeemaker, food processors (large & small), toaster, waffle maker, etc.)
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Snack/Lunch Center (and Coffee Center)...
For the Microwave, I suggest creating a "Snack/Lunch Center" to include either a MW drawer (my preference). a MW hanging from an upper cabinet, or a MW sitting on the counter. In the design below, note the location of this Center. It's located to the left of the Pantry and out of the main part of the Kitchen. This keeps snackers outside of the work area so they do not interfere with the preparing and cooking a meal or cleaning up.
The Center is located near the refrigerator where most MW'd food and lunch foods come from and not far from the sinks. There is plenty of storage, both above and below for lunch supplies, perhaps a gluten-free bread drawer, etc. The upper cabinet is only 9"D to open up the area a bit. However, if you hang the MW from the upper cabinets, the one the MW is hanging from should be at least standard depth (12") and maybe even 15" deep. I prefer the MW below the counter so it's not "in your face" when hanging or cluttering the countertop...but I would definitely not put a standard MW below the counter since they are problematical to use in that location...instead, I recommend a MW drawer.
There is also a coffeemaker in the Center since it's over 5' wide and plenty big enough for both a Coffee Center and a Snack Center.
The "Snack/Lunch Center" also acts as a Tertiary Prep Zone -- it has no direct water access, but water is nearby.
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Gluten Center...
The "Gluten Center" is located far from the main area of the Kitchen and the Snack/Lunch Center to reduce the chances of cross-contamination. It does sit partly in front of the window to the deck, but I suggest putting in just one cabinet and leaving an open space directly adjacent to the window. It may need a "leg" to help support the countertop, but it doesn't have to be very big. That open space could be for a small trash can or just left open. It shouldn't block too much light. If you like to keep things off the counter, the toaster and other paraphernalia can be stored in the drawers when not in use.
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Island...
The island holds the Cleanup Zone and the Secondary Prep Zone. It also seats 5.
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Cozy Nook...
I was not able to put in a couple of chairs and table. The doors being spread out really constrain the space.
I know you said no structural changes, but if you were willing to move the french doors from the Kitchen to the Dining Room, it would free up that corner for the cozy little nook you're thinking of. That corner would be a nice place for a couple of chairs and a small table (see the "Nook Option" layout to see what I'm talking about).
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++++++++++ The Layouts ++++++++++
Layout #1:
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Layout #1 - Zones:
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Layout #1 - Nook Option:
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Layout #2:
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Layout #2 - Zones:
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+++++ Additional Analysis +++++
The three primary work zones (Primary Prep, Cooking, Cleanup) are separated from each other. This allows several people to work in the Kitchen at the same time -- prepping, cooking, and cleaning up. Each primary zone has it's own "space" so there is no conflict.
Prep Zones...There are two Prep Zones with direct water access and one without direct water access. With multiple prep zones, several people can be prepping at the same time (in addition to someone cooking in the Cooking Zone).
- The Primary Prep Zone is on the perimeter b/w the refrigerator and range and contains a prep sink. While working in this Prep Zone you can easily move from the refrigerator to the sink (for cleaning/rinsing food) to the prep counterspace to the range in the Cooking Zone. There are over 33 inches b/w the sink and the corner and over 30 inches b/w the corner and range for work space...all nice and close to the range. This flow follows the usual Kitchen workflow:
Refrigerator --> Prep Zone/Sink --> Prep Zone/Workspace --> Cooking Zone
- The Secondary Prep Zone is on the island and uses the cleanup sink as its water source.
-- In Layout #1, the DW is in the middle of the Secondary Prep Zone. Unfortunately, this means if someone is prepping there, it will be difficult for someone else to clean up. However, the DW is close to the dish storage both next to the range and in the island.
-- In Layout #2, the DW is not in the Secondary Prep Zone and there can now be someone prepping and cleaning up at the same time. However, now the DW is now too far from the dish storage next to the range and the island dish storage is in the middle of the Secondary Prep Zone. In addition, the 13" thick wall is somewhat in the way.
-- I'm not sure right now which I prefer! I kind of lean toward the 2nd, but if I were cleaning up I wouldn't be very happy about the dish storage being so far away!
- The Tertiary Prep Zone is in the "Snack/Lunch Center". While it has no direct water access, it does have sufficient counter space to help out with preparing a meal. As the Lunch Center, someone can be making lunches for the next day while others are preparing/cooking a meal and/or cleaning up.
The two sinks make it possible for you to have multiple people working in the Kitchen. To work effectively, you need the two sinks to allow people to be able to work at the sink at the same time and have their own counterspace. Sharing a sink doesn't really work that well, even if you have a giant sink -- especially with kids working together!
The Cooking Zone...The Cooking Zone contains the range and is next to the Primary Prep Zone and across from the Secondary Prep Zone (whichever option you pick).
The Cleanup Zone...The Cleanup Zone contains the sink and DW. Normally, I would move this zone to the perimeter and moved the Primary Prep Zone to the island b/c you spend far more time prepping than you do cleaning up (over 70% prep/20% cleaning up), but two things worked against that...
- You don't have enough wall space for both the refrigerator/range and the cleanup sink/DW.
- You stated your preference for it to be in the island. The reality is, though, that you don't actually spend that much time at the sink during cleanup. Cleanup includes clearing/wiping down the table, clearing/wiping down the counters, sweeping, loading/unloading the DW, etc...in addition to hand washing a few dishes at the sink.
With only one sink, prepping & cleanup are done at the same sink, so it's understandable that many think they spend a lot of time cleaning up...it's actually the prepping.
Jon M thanked Buehl - The Primary Prep Zone is on the perimeter b/w the refrigerator and range and contains a prep sink. While working in this Prep Zone you can easily move from the refrigerator to the sink (for cleaning/rinsing food) to the prep counterspace to the range in the Cooking Zone. There are over 33 inches b/w the sink and the corner and over 30 inches b/w the corner and range for work space...all nice and close to the range. This flow follows the usual Kitchen workflow:
- 6 years ago
Sina Sadeddin Architectural Design