Post-flood surprise kitchen remodel for family of 5, planning help ple
We weren’t planning to remodel our kitchen this year, but several months ago we had a dishwasher flood. We will be having the wood flooring replaced and the cabinets replaced.
Since living with a torn-up kitchen, we have realized how inefficient our old layout was. It was a U-shape and did not lend itself to having more than one cook in the kitchen. The cabinets in the corners were very difficult to access. The main thing we liked about the layout was seating for our three children at the breakfast bar.
Kitchen mission statement:
Our kitchen is a tidy, clean, and fresh. It is a welcoming space where we gather to cook, eat, do homework or projects, and spend time together.
Family composition:
Two adults and three children 13, 11, 8.
One family member has celiac disease. This kitchen uses gluten products but not loose flour. There is a toaster that is gluten only, and gluten bread is available.
We would like to accommodate multiple cooks/cleanup crew.
We are high use kitchen users. Both husband and wife enjoy cooking. We probably eat one meal out a week as a family, 1-2 work lunches out per week for adults, and the rest of the meals are made at home. We also do big batch cooking, e.g., roasting vegetables or protein ahead of time and eating during the week.
We would like our kitchen to be a place where people can pull up a chair to sit and chat, or help (or do homework). After the dishwasher flood, we found ourselves replacing our breakfast bar with a folding table and chairs -- it is that important to us and used frequently.
We entertain informally (other families) and frequently host another kid or two for a playdate/dinner/sleepover.
We have a separate dining room and use it every night for dinner. It is not an overly formal space, but it has a big table with plenty of room (seats 8 and expands to 10). It’s a nice place to reconnect at the end of the day without distractions. We also use the table frequently to play games.
We don’t have a plan to make structural changes.
Dream list would include: an area for lunches/snacks to be packed that would be not in the way of the main cooking zone. A possible “gluten zone” for bread and toaster to live in (one family member has Celiac disease).
Previous layout:
We had a U shaped kitchen which felt very inefficient. Hard to use corner cabinets, hard for more than one person to work in the kitchen.
We are considering:
- Changing from a 30” range to a 36” range, due to the amount of cooking we do. It seems like it may be excessive, but we also realize that it may be the kind of thing that you appreciate more after you have it.
- Ventilation hood (for whatever range we get)
- Changing pantry to appliance closet, including microwave.
- We will keep our fridge (full-size, not counter depth) and dishwasher
- Reducing the number of (or eliminating entirely) upper cabinets that were along the walls that have the refrigerator and dishwasher
PANTRY
Our current pantry is a closet that is narrow but deep and it is difficult to reach items. We would like to convert this to a closet to store small appliances such as Instant Pot, Kitchen Aid Mixer, blender, etc. We would like to add an outlet for the microwave. (Other appliances would be removed before using.) We would like to plan a pull-out pantry that could be used to store food.
ISLAND
We would like an island with sink, dishwasher, and seating for 3-5.
We are unsure as to whether we can find room for a small table in addition to the island. Ideally this would seat 5.
If we put more seating at the island we do not feel like we need a table in this room.
If there isn’t another table, I like the idea of a couple of chairs that would be comfortable for adults to sit in and have coffee if kids are hosting friends for a movie/videogames in the front room.
SPACE WITH POTENTIAL
There is an area next to the pantry that we would like to have upper/lower cabinets and a countertop. I would like to have a cabinet that would keep our printer tucked away. I could see this as a possible area for toaster/coffeemaker or could imagine it as an area where we have lunch making supplies (and maybe kids’ snacks) for packing that would be away from the stove/sink/dishwasher.
Other considerations:
The side of the kitchen with the appliances has no windows. The other side of the room is ALL windows (they start about a foot from the ground). There are also two skylights and a high/sloped ceiling on this side of the room (beginning at the exterior side wall and extending to the doorway that leads to the dining room). There is such a big contrast between the bright/natural light on one side of the room and the lack thereof on the other. We want to plan lighting solutions to help address this.
The ceiling on the appliance side of the kitchen is 9 feet.
The kitchen is at the back of the house with a door out to a back deck, french doors out to a covered side porch, a pass-through to the dining room, and an opening to the hallway.
Goals:
Drawer storage for dishes and pans
Improve lighting in kitchen
Seating for 3-5 at island
Space for multiple cooks to work
Optimizing island, specifically the sink/dishwasher placement
Planning an efficient use of the “space with potential”
Here is the kitchen layout.
GAS, HW/CW/DRAIN, and E(lectric) are marked and each square represents 6".
And the kitchen in the context of the house
Comments (16)
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After 8 years, the final touch on our kitchen/family room remodel
Comments (21)Thanks everyone for the compliments and good wishes! We can't believe how well it turned out either. We agonized a lot over which seating to order. Even though we played around with layouts on paper, I was worried that the theater seating group would be too big but I really wanted 3 seats there. The room feels much more spacious with the new seating then with the old couch - I think that's partly its a visual illusion because this one looks less bulky and partly the Space is less deep than on the old couch with its bulky cushions. mtnfever, the Couch Color pageant definitely helped us get clarity on the right color. For those who missed it, I highly recommend the approach of making large samples of a color to consider instead of trying to imagine with a tiny sample chip. I'll link the thread below for those who didn't see it. We knew we wanted to get rid of the hearth when we bought the house decades ago, but it took a long time to get around to it. On the other hand, I don't think we would have made as good decisions if we had replaced it back then. Bcafe, in the stores, they use the Stressless name and logo more than the Ekornes one so it would be easy to think that the company wasn't around. They still have the Ekornes non-reclining couches and chairs too. The website is www.ekornes.com/us. Enduring - yes it wasn't in scale and was way too dark. Even more, I hated it because it was fake stone. It always looked really fake to me though I've had others who were sure it was real stone. Gooster, yes all the front speakers are behind speaker cloth sections in the cabinets. The center is between the two drawers of the credenza; left and right on pull out shelves in the far left and right cabinets. The subwoofer is the black box on the floor and the rear speakers are white and mounted near the ceiling - you can see one in the first picture. Yes, we moved the fireplace to the right - doing so was only slightly more work than tearing out the hearth and installing a new one where the old one was. The hearth was fake stone on a metal mesh backing over a wood frame so that was much easier to remove than it looks like it would be. There wasn't a solid brick or stone chimney - just a flue pipe to remove and this is on an inside wall - the works were all in the empty space between the faux stone and an interior wall - so there was no external chimney to move to match except a little box on the roof. This is a one story which also makes moving things easier - the main work of moving it was patching the old hole in the roof and making a new one for the new flue to go through. We had moved it too far to be able to slant the flue to reach the old hole. When our GC took out the old hearth, there were some surprises. A joist had been cut for the old flue to go through the ceiling and it hadn't been sistered or anything - just two joist ends hanging in space in the ceiling. Our GC repaired that. There were electrical outlets on the bottom of the hearth and there were wire junctions just hanging in space inaccessible under the heart where the wiring was connected to wires from the wall. The fireplace was apparently a very early addition to the house poorly done. The TV is 65" - the size was chosen to be big enough that text viewed from the couch when using the screen for the media computer would be about equivalent to looking at text on a desktop computer screen. Also it works nicely for viewing while cooking and yet isn't overwhelming from the couch. The gap could accommodate a 73" screen, but I prefer having a little space around the screen. CEFreeman, the knobs took a lot of thought and work. He has made things like bowls and salt shakers before but never has made things that need to match as a large set. I came up with an initial design for the profile after seeing something similar in a magazine and then he made some initial variations so we could perfect the diameter, height and shape details. Then he made about twice as many as we would need since these are done freehand and the wood also varies. I sorted them into matched pairs and we used the best matches on the pairs of doors where the knobs are right next to each other in the wide cabinet and the credenza. We also put matched pairs on the left and right opening tall cabinets in case they are ever in a room where they are right next to each other. He also repairs furniture and is the only reason we still can use the rather fragile dining table chairs we have. But he does full time day care for our youngest grandchild so I only get so much project time from him. Bellsmom!! Yikes - so that's why we had to replace the hearth - to keep trolls from hiding there. I love your concept - so did my husband. (The eyes were elevations I made of our plans for the wall. When I asked about vertical blinds on the Home Decorating forum, there were a lot of people who were anti-vertical, but for the windows and style of this house, I think they are the best solution. Part of some peoples objections were based on cheap industrial metal verticals. These ones have fabric laminated to plastic for the vanes so they are quieter. We popped for the backstaker option so when partially open the stacked vanes are at the edge of the windows. We also like that the blinds can be tilted to block sun when needed while still letting us see the yard and monitor grandchildren on the patio. Marti8a, we chose to keep the same wood for the cabinets as in the kitchen - natural cherry - because we already have several woods in the area - maple floor, oak breakfast table and counter stools and some dark unidentified wood for some of the original built-ins and breakfast room doors. To differentiate them from the kitchen cabinets (because I didn't want the family room to look like the kitchen had extended into it), so we chose a different door style - a more sophisticated mitered corner raised panel instead of shaker, but still with simple lines and furniture style knobs instead of big kitchen ones. Here is a link that might be useful: Couch Color thread...See MoreLayout Help - Kitchen/Floor-plan Remodel
Comments (25)KathyNY76, We looked at the option of a longer island and would love to have been able to do that. The biggest issue the width of the kitchen. If you look at GreenDesigns drawing, the door that swings open would actually only leave a few inches of space between the door and island. The current island is only 30" from the base cabinets as it stands now, hence why we are considering eliminating it. The issue is the drawings I posted show a little more room width wise than what is actually there. My apologizes for this. For a better sense of what I am referring to, here are a few pics reposted. This is facing the wall where the peninsula is shown in the drawings. The wall is not load bearing. This is facing the same wall from the kitchen. There is currently 30" of space between bottom cabinets and island. This is facing in opposite direction. We usually use this door to come into the house. So given the above, any changes in opinion?...See Morehelp w/ kitchen lighting plan - x-post
Comments (19)Thanks, bmore! I tried to find your kitchen reveal thread and couldn't. I'd love to see pics of your lights and their placement in your kitchen. TIA! Thanks, cindallas! The cab next to the oven column has a base and an upper cab that is 15" or 16" above the counter and pulled forward so that its face is even with the base cab face. It will be similar to this set-up, except that the toaster oven cubby will only be 19 1/2" deep (the toaster oven, inc handle, will pretty much fill the space front to back). [Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Charlotte Appliances DCI Home Resource I hadn't planned on adding UCL lighting here since it wouldn't do much beyond light the top of the toaster oven. The toaster oven has a lighted control panel so we won't have a problem reading temp, settings, etc. I realized that I'm adding 2 additional can lights to the kitchen so yes, definitely on the dimmer switch! I can't wait to see my kitchen either, Carol! =) The lighting rep recommended the 10" back from the front. I forgot to ask her if that was OC (on center) or to the front edge of the can but since we're talking about 2", I decided not to worry about it and go with the front to back position of my can in the corner above the windows since not repositioning it will save us a bit of $$. There won't be any work counter in the area next to the ovens, only a shallower than standard counter for the toaster oven. Everything else is floor to ceiling cabs so lighting in front of it is preferred. The can above my fridge and fridge cab was placed way too close to the cab face creating glare on the cab and shadows where I don't want them. Also, it's how our current cans are placed and it's worked well for 20+ yrs. Good luck with your kitchen planning!...See MoreRemodeling family room to kitchen...layout help!
Comments (47)I like your inspiration photo. In fact, I think you can glean some good ideas from it with your layout. Gosh, that angled upper-view is hard to work from, isn't it? The red cabinet is the new pantry. You will want to check your aisle spacing there. You may need to go with shallower cabinets to keep your aisles wide enough. Actually, that is a good thing as pantry shelves should be shallower to allow for better access and less risk of losing food that gets hidden behind other items. While that cabinet may need to be shallower than when it was on the other wall, it can be longer so I think, in the end, you have just as much storage that is also more accessible storage. I definitely like the lack of traffic through the kitchen so much better with the door moved here. I was trying to decide if it would be better to have a counter in the red cabinet area or just floor to ceiling cabinets. Your inspiration picture gives a good mix of both. I think I'd be inclined to make that area into a beverage/snack center. Maybe move the microwave there, built in over the middle counter area, the toaster, and the coffee maker. It would also be a good space for a fruit bowl and such. This way if you're making dinner....and let's pretend it's a dinner that is going to cook for a few hours, maybe even something you're starting around lunch time, the rest of the family can come in and make a snack to tide them over without impeding on the cooking space. DH can make the morning coffee while you're making breakfast. Whatever. It would create a nice separation of space for different tasks. Think about what all you would store in the "red" cabinets. You may not want so many glass uppers if it will be food pantry storage. If you anticipate any nice glassware or serving pieces being stored there, the glass would be nice. If mainly pantry items, I think the open shelves would keep it open enough looking without needing the glass, too. Again, it depends on what you're storing there. I think you should keep the fridge where it is for easier access for snacks but also for grabbing that extra condiment or anything else forgotten....this is more important if you're sitting at the dining room table but I think it just fits better there.. And I'm not really one who likes looking at refrigerators that much. I think they tend to be big hulks in the kitchen. If you move it to the lower-right corner, you will see it from the dining room. Is that what you want to look at? Or would you rather look at your beautiful cupboards? All that said, moving it to lower-right would better fit the ice-water-stone-fire layout which is a great work flow. We move from fridge to sink/prep counter to cooking. If you recall, this is why we have been pushing you to consider a prep sink. So...hmmmmm...I'm just musing out loud here. If it were my kitchen, and because I have such a dislike for hulking fridges, I would really have to think about the extra steps from fridge to sink in this layout and weigh that against my fridge dislike to make a decision. You will be walking extra steps in this layout. I walk extra steps in my own kitchen just so I could put my fridge in a less-noticeable niche and I'm quite happy with that decision. It's only about 1.5-2 steps farther than the previous fridge placement but it has allowed me to have a baking center and made the view through my over-sink window better and easier seen from the rest of the house without the fridge sticking out and blocking it. So carefully consider whether those extra steps will be a bother for you. In the end, most of us have to make a compromise or two to get what we want. And, in the end, since we're all different, only you can make that final decision. It's really best to have as many options as possible to consider before pulling the trigger. If SIL is willing, I think you should have her draw up a plan with the door moved to the lower-left and the fridge in lower-right and share it here so we can all give you feedback on that plan. Or maybe someone else will pop in here and create one. I'm better at seeing problems than I am coming up with solutions so I'm not seeing a good way to do that and keep your sink under the window that you so desire which also keeps the DW out of the prep zone. And, to me, those issues are more important than a few extra steps to the fridge. Oh, gosh, sorry to ramble on so long. I probably wasn't much help, was I?...See More
Buehl
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoCould you please add measurements to the layout above? We could "count boxes", but partial boxes are a guess and inches count! Include trim measurements in the doors/doorways/windows.
Something like this:
Jon M thanked BuehlJon M
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoThis is my first try with some layout software. Hopefully it makes sense. I have not marked electrical, gas, or water in this drawing.
We have a temporary island that was installed after the demo work was done. It will be removed and replaced with a permanent one.
The main questions we have are: 1) the placement and size of the island, 2) can we put a table in there somewhere if we have an island that seats 3-5, and 3) what can we do with the space to the left of the double closet?
Thank you for your thoughts!
Jon
Buehl
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoJon -- could you please also include dimensions of each window/door/doorway/wall segment and the distances b/w each window/door/doorway/wall segment? Those are key measurements.
Since you did not mark the gas, water, etc., I assume all these things can be moved...correct? If not, then please add them to the layout with measurements like in the sample layout for the "post". If you have a basement under the Kitchen, you can pretty easily and inexpensively move water & gas. If you're on a slab, it's more difficult & expensive. However, if nothing can be changed, your options are limited.
Your questions cannot be answered without working up layouts to see if you can fit all your wants and still have a functional space for the 5 of you.
What's more important to you....table space in the Kitchen or an island that seats 3 to 5? (I assume the island, but I'm double-checking!)
Buehl
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoBuehl
5 years agoBuehl
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoOK, I counted boxes, but I doubt all measurements are exactly in 6" increments (with a couple 3"), so I'm not sure how accurate the measurements really are....that's why we need you to label the actual (as-measured with a measuring tape) measurements, not just leave it to us to figure them out. (Remember, we're all volunteers here and it took me quite a while to count all those tiny boxes on the very light picture.)
In particular, by counting boxes, the bottom wall segment is 10'0", yet the layout you did with a few measurements says it's only 9'7". Those 3" may not seem like much, but if there are similar discrepancies throughout, they could add up to bigger differences, which could have a major impact on what can actually be done in the space. (ETA: There's a 6" difference on the 16' top wall.)
Please verify the measurements if you would like more help.
Jon M thanked BuehlBuehl
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoBuehl
5 years agoJon M
5 years ago
Sammy
5 years agoBuehl
5 years agolast modified: 5 years agoI worked a design up that I think meets all your needs & wants except the cozy nook with comfortable chairs. More on that below...
A few comments b/f I post my design.
Pantry...
You want a pullout pantry instead of a built-in pantry. However, a built-in pantry with shallow shelves (12"D) is much more useful -- it's more efficient & flexible storage, holds much more, is much more functional, and is much less expensive to build and maintain. In addition, you have very limited wall space and given all your wants, a pullout pantry would make your Kitchen function worse, not better.
I do not know where your front door is (it's not one of the spaces you included in your sketch), but the "Front Closet" doesn't seem to be in a particularly useful location. Plus, with 5 people and the paraphernalia associated with them (especially school-age children!), it seems too small. We have one that's wider than yours (48" vs 40") and it's useless for a family of 4. It's turned into a catch-all for things no one knows where to put away -- something I should have changed when we redid our Kitchen but didn't think about. (I've been debating turning it into an auxiliary pantry instead of the one in the basement.)
Based on above, I'm going to suggest that you merge the current Pantry and Front Closet into one Pantry. It could hold both food and small appliances and could also house the printer -- keeping it out of sight but still in the open for ease of use. (With the exception of my toaster oven, all my small appliances fit in my pantry on 12" deep shelves -- blender, breadmaker, coffeemaker, food processors (large & small), toaster, waffle maker, etc.)
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Snack/Lunch Center (and Coffee Center)...
For the Microwave, I suggest creating a "Snack/Lunch Center" to include either a MW drawer (my preference). a MW hanging from an upper cabinet, or a MW sitting on the counter. In the design below, note the location of this Center. It's located to the left of the Pantry and out of the main part of the Kitchen. This keeps snackers outside of the work area so they do not interfere with the preparing and cooking a meal or cleaning up.
The Center is located near the refrigerator where most MW'd food and lunch foods come from and not far from the sinks. There is plenty of storage, both above and below for lunch supplies, perhaps a gluten-free bread drawer, etc. The upper cabinet is only 9"D to open up the area a bit. However, if you hang the MW from the upper cabinets, the one the MW is hanging from should be at least standard depth (12") and maybe even 15" deep. I prefer the MW below the counter so it's not "in your face" when hanging or cluttering the countertop...but I would definitely not put a standard MW below the counter since they are problematical to use in that location...instead, I recommend a MW drawer.
There is also a coffeemaker in the Center since it's over 5' wide and plenty big enough for both a Coffee Center and a Snack Center.
The "Snack/Lunch Center" also acts as a Tertiary Prep Zone -- it has no direct water access, but water is nearby.
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Gluten Center...
The "Gluten Center" is located far from the main area of the Kitchen and the Snack/Lunch Center to reduce the chances of cross-contamination. It does sit partly in front of the window to the deck, but I suggest putting in just one cabinet and leaving an open space directly adjacent to the window. It may need a "leg" to help support the countertop, but it doesn't have to be very big. That open space could be for a small trash can or just left open. It shouldn't block too much light. If you like to keep things off the counter, the toaster and other paraphernalia can be stored in the drawers when not in use.
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Island...
The island holds the Cleanup Zone and the Secondary Prep Zone. It also seats 5.
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Cozy Nook...
I was not able to put in a couple of chairs and table. The doors being spread out really constrain the space.
I know you said no structural changes, but if you were willing to move the french doors from the Kitchen to the Dining Room, it would free up that corner for the cozy little nook you're thinking of. That corner would be a nice place for a couple of chairs and a small table (see the "Nook Option" layout to see what I'm talking about).
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++++++++++ The Layouts ++++++++++
Layout #1:
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Layout #1 - Zones:
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Layout #1 - Nook Option:
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Layout #2:
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Layout #2 - Zones:
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+++++ Additional Analysis +++++
The three primary work zones (Primary Prep, Cooking, Cleanup) are separated from each other. This allows several people to work in the Kitchen at the same time -- prepping, cooking, and cleaning up. Each primary zone has it's own "space" so there is no conflict.
Prep Zones...There are two Prep Zones with direct water access and one without direct water access. With multiple prep zones, several people can be prepping at the same time (in addition to someone cooking in the Cooking Zone).
- The Primary Prep Zone is on the perimeter b/w the refrigerator and range and contains a prep sink. While working in this Prep Zone you can easily move from the refrigerator to the sink (for cleaning/rinsing food) to the prep counterspace to the range in the Cooking Zone. There are over 33 inches b/w the sink and the corner and over 30 inches b/w the corner and range for work space...all nice and close to the range. This flow follows the usual Kitchen workflow:
Refrigerator --> Prep Zone/Sink --> Prep Zone/Workspace --> Cooking Zone
- The Secondary Prep Zone is on the island and uses the cleanup sink as its water source.
-- In Layout #1, the DW is in the middle of the Secondary Prep Zone. Unfortunately, this means if someone is prepping there, it will be difficult for someone else to clean up. However, the DW is close to the dish storage both next to the range and in the island.
-- In Layout #2, the DW is not in the Secondary Prep Zone and there can now be someone prepping and cleaning up at the same time. However, now the DW is now too far from the dish storage next to the range and the island dish storage is in the middle of the Secondary Prep Zone. In addition, the 13" thick wall is somewhat in the way.
-- I'm not sure right now which I prefer! I kind of lean toward the 2nd, but if I were cleaning up I wouldn't be very happy about the dish storage being so far away!
- The Tertiary Prep Zone is in the "Snack/Lunch Center". While it has no direct water access, it does have sufficient counter space to help out with preparing a meal. As the Lunch Center, someone can be making lunches for the next day while others are preparing/cooking a meal and/or cleaning up.
The two sinks make it possible for you to have multiple people working in the Kitchen. To work effectively, you need the two sinks to allow people to be able to work at the sink at the same time and have their own counterspace. Sharing a sink doesn't really work that well, even if you have a giant sink -- especially with kids working together!
The Cooking Zone...The Cooking Zone contains the range and is next to the Primary Prep Zone and across from the Secondary Prep Zone (whichever option you pick).
The Cleanup Zone...The Cleanup Zone contains the sink and DW. Normally, I would move this zone to the perimeter and moved the Primary Prep Zone to the island b/c you spend far more time prepping than you do cleaning up (over 70% prep/20% cleaning up), but two things worked against that...
- You don't have enough wall space for both the refrigerator/range and the cleanup sink/DW.
- You stated your preference for it to be in the island. The reality is, though, that you don't actually spend that much time at the sink during cleanup. Cleanup includes clearing/wiping down the table, clearing/wiping down the counters, sweeping, loading/unloading the DW, etc...in addition to hand washing a few dishes at the sink.
With only one sink, prepping & cleanup are done at the same sink, so it's understandable that many think they spend a lot of time cleaning up...it's actually the prepping.
Jon M thanked Buehl- The Primary Prep Zone is on the perimeter b/w the refrigerator and range and contains a prep sink. While working in this Prep Zone you can easily move from the refrigerator to the sink (for cleaning/rinsing food) to the prep counterspace to the range in the Cooking Zone. There are over 33 inches b/w the sink and the corner and over 30 inches b/w the corner and range for work space...all nice and close to the range. This flow follows the usual Kitchen workflow:
Jon M
5 years ago
Sina Sadeddin Architectural Design