Re: David Cary

“fsq and I would certainly disagree. Harrisburg is absolutely not an extreme climate situation. Honestly, Greenspeed is not designed for Harrisburg but much further north.”

I’m just listening to and taking cues the OP. The title of this thread is, “Cold Climate Heat Pumps”, OP’s words, not mine. Geothermal just happens to be the best Cold Climate & reliable HP. I’m suggesting a possible solution that might be less expensive and stressful than a trip to the hospital.

To the OP:

Given your requirements due to a medical condition, you might also consider installing a backup diesel generator, not only for the heat pump but also for any other medical equipment that might be necessary.

Besides a generator, I would definitely recommend, particularly in your case, that you install ‘Whole House Surge Protection’ as a way to protect all your sensitive equipment, HVAC, medical, computer, 110volt and 220volt from electrical surges and spikes. All your electrical equipment should have longer life cycles. You also might avoid equipment breakdowns that could become life threatening.

‘Whole House Surge Protection’ is just another electrical box that installs beside your main electrical panel load center ‘entrance’ and would cost about a couple of hundred dollars to purchase and install.

Cheap insurance in my opinion, we installed ours after a lightning strike took out Thousands dollars worth of computer, AV and ham radio equipment.

IMPO

SR

I can chime in as far as day-to-day functionality is concerned, as we've had the ducted Mitsubishi heat pump setup for the last couple of years: air handler in the basement connected to the existing ductwork in a 1912 Seattle craftsman, with the condenser unit outside. Obviously, our temperature extremes aren't similar to yours, but from a functionality standpoint I'm very happy with the equipment. The air handler and compressor are variable speed (if that's the right term), so the temperature stays very, very consistent, which is a nice change from the old furnace that would blast hot air, make the house too hot, then shut off until it cooled down. We have the outside unit near our deck (small in-city lot) and it's very quiet.

Good luck!

I have friends who are building a house in a much warmer climate (Arizona) that are looking into these invertor-type heat pumps. They are currently planning for 8 zones with a single 4-ton HP. It was American Standard, now probably something Korean. I mentioned the Mitsubishi to them. The ones referenced above are not mini-splits, but 'normal' split systems with ducting and a single air handler.

Their exterior walls are 2x4 with fiberglass, along with a layer of closed foam on the outside, then stucco. I believe they get close to R-30. The attic space (actually the ceiling) is closer to R55. Didnt ask that much about the windows, but I know they are shaded.

According to the website EfficiencyMaine, ductless heat pumps are available for outside temperatures as low as -15°F. However, I am looking for an air-to-water heat pump for my new hydronic heating system (I currently use resistance heat).

David, thank you for correcting me on the ducts! I don't think anything is being run in the attic, but I can check on that. There will be duct work in the basement - it is not a conditioned space, but it does have some insulation from the Superior walls being used. I can have some follow up questions about that for the companies I am talking with.

Generator

Yes, 100% YES! I cannot afford one this year, but it is on the list, I hope, for next year. I did look into pricing a unit for installation this fall, but sizing one large enough to cover all basics plus a good brand is out of the budget for this year. If I am using a heat pump, it's going to be even larger.

"Cold Climate"

Yes, please throw stones at me for using that term. As far as I am concerned, I consider PA cold. Most of the HVAC industry considers it to be cold, also. No, it is not ME or AK, but it certainly DOES NOT have the same heating requirements of GA, FL, or any of the southern states where standard HP's are an excellent all-in-one heating/cooling choice. Please feel free to post how warm PA is, but you must also post your opinion on how wet water is :)

Whole House Surge Protection

Didn't even know there was such a thing, thank you!! This is definitely going on my "must have" list!

I did receive a quote for the Mitsubishi system, and am working on the quote for a Bosch (guy is on vacation this week, might take a while). I'm working on trying to get operation costs for the system.

Good news, I spoke with the GC, and rearranged some things so I have more time to gather information and decide on the HVAC - it's not as much of a rush now.

Everyone -- thank you very much for the posts and advice!!!

AvatarWalt -- thank you for sharing your experience with the Mitsubishi!! It is a very tempting system. Do you think you are saving any money over your previous system??

Weedmeister -- AZ has some serious cooling requirements, so if a Mitsubishi ducted system would fit their needs, it should certainly keep me cold :) Thanks!!!

I think that Mitsubishi introduced their low ambient heat pumps in mini split form calling them Hyper Heat (H2i) and refer to it as flash injection technology. These are the key terms, Hyper Heat, flash technology and Zuba (Zuba-Dan). I believe that they own this kind of injection technology (flash) and this follows on from older designs that inject gas or liquid refrigerant into the compressor. The former seems to have generated more use and interest than the latter which is more of a theoretical foil for discussion in my perception. They also used it in their commercial systems before it seems to have moved to residential central AHU-based systems.

How it actually works may be more of a discussion for refrigeration engineering geeks. You can find it with a good search. On the practical side, it does some remarkable things. It makes recovery from defrost faster. Apparently refrigerant starvation at the compressor on start-up is a problem with conventional systems. With start-up and defrost recovery, the Flash technology helps. It also allows the compressor run at higher speeds without overheating for recovery periods by cooling it. As a nice byproduct of that in heating mode, that heat is recovered and expelled in the condenser in heating mode so it gives a double boost. Less time in defrost mode due to shorter temperature recovery in the condenser means higher COP (or COP maintenance at lower temperature) and greater comfort/lower cost without so-called backup heat.

It appears that the residential central AHU-based systems go by the name "ZUBA" after the Zuba-Dan flash injection technology. One caveat is that I am not sure about North American availability, but I think it is sold here. Another is price. A third is size of the available units. They may be biased to larger compressors where the advantages of energy efficiency are magnified by capacity. I am not up to date on any of these issues.

For mvthike they also have air to water units, but again, I don't know about the North American market. I think it is the most recent addition to their suite of Zuba-Dan products. It is certainly worth checking on. Their flash technology is cool stuff unless you are in heating mode, then it is hot ;-}

I've never looked into how GreenSpeed works or how it compares performance wise.

There are some interesting products becoming available for power protection more recently. There have been some out there for direct protection of HVAC for some time, but I recently found a British company making similar products for plug-in appliances as well. I bought a few. Some are available for the North American market and some are not. The ones I am interested in provide surge protection and disconnect appliance with high or low voltage and reconnect after a selectable time delay after correct power is restored. (That prevents a lot of repeated assaults that often occur with single power outages when disruption starts and reconnects are attempted.) I have some Voltguard (120V and ~7 amps). I'd like some of their 15A versions that can be set to disconnect and manually reconnect, but not for the US right now. They do have some 30 amp and up versions that look to be hard wired. The company is Solatec.

simmtalker--I fear there are too many variables to determine cost savings. We didn't have AC before putting in the heat pump, plus we have solar panels and added a few more during the same remodel where we installed the heat pump to replace a moderately efficient natural gas furnace. Our entire 2017 electric bill, including heat and AC, was about $450, so the overall cost is very reasonable IMHO, but it's difficult to compare apples to apples. You've started a very interesting thread, and I'm enjoying reading and learning, so thanks for that!

Here's a link to the government's Energy Star site where they list the most energy efficient heat pumps for 2018. The heat pump that is mentioned for exceptional performance in cold climates is the Carrier 25VNA Infinity Series with Infinity Touch Control.

Here's the quote from the site about that Carrier heat pump, "The Infinity series heat pump with Greenspeed® intelligence is the first of its kind. No other ducted, air source heat pump can beat its 13 HSPF rating for heating efficiency, or its exceptional cold weather performance. It’s a winner too, when it comes to cooling with efficiency up to 20.5 SEER."

Here's the quote from the Carrier site about it's operation in cold weather, "Cold Weather Performance: exceptional heating capacity at outside temperatures in the teens."

Bobjones, has there been any real progress in determining and expressing the efficiency in the last five years? The last time I looked into it, methods did not allow anywhere near good comparison between them and underestimated efficiency is variable speed co mpared ti single.

What does Carrier mean by “exceptional” and how do they do below zero F.?

ionized, I was looking at that. Minnesota has a study with a report in 2016 on cold climate air source heat pumps and here's some of the information, "....there are issues that make integrating a ducted ccASHP with the existing furnace complicated. The two primary issues are 1) the furnace and heat pump require communicating capabilities and 2) a multi-stage fan is necessary to achieve the full benefit of the ccASHP. To deal with these issues, manufacturers and installers specify that the furnace and ccASHP are of the same brand. This ensures that the controls for the ccASHP and the furnace can communicate. Integrated controls are required for the switchover set point and the furnace fan speed. With the variable capacity capabilities of ccASHPs, manufacturers require that the fan in the air handler unit also be variable speed for ideal performance of the system. Unfortunately, most 80% AFUE and older condensing furnaces have single stage fans." Their most cost effective solution was to, "install a new 80% AFUE communicating furnace with a multi-stage fan;"

Here's why they reached that decision on the type of backup furnace, "In the Minneapolis/St, Paul metro area, a homeowner would pay about $4,250 for a condensing furnace and only $1,875 for the same size non-condensing furnace. With a properly sized ccASHP, it is expected that the furnace would have to meet less than 30% of the heating load, and this percentage can be reduced further for homes with lower heating loads. Given that the furnace would only be running for a small portion of the heating season, it is likely to be more cost effective to install an 80% AFUE furnace.'

"Controls allow the installer to program a switchover set point that locks out the ccASHP. For this study, the set point was selected to be 10oF. Based on how the systems were sized for each home, 10oF is the outdoor air temperature at which the heat pump cannot meet the full heating load of the home."

They have energy use comparison charts on page 8 where they compare ccASHP's energy use to propane furnace energy use. The Minnesota study also discussed efficiency in their "Conclusions" section, "Cold climate air source heat pumps have been identified for their potential to provide significant energy and cost savings to homeowners without access to natural gas space heating. Additionally, ccASHP can reduce the reliance these homeowners have on delivered fuels, which can be costly in terms of price, emissions, and limited availability.

The project has concluded that the measured performance of ccASHP installed in real homes confirms the potential to provide significant energy savings (39% to 65% of space heating energy use) and cost savings (14% to 29% of space heating costs). Results also showed that ccASHP reduce reliance on delivered fuels in 52% to 89% of homes. The reduced usage of propane could lead to even greater savings at times when limited availability makes propane unavailable or cost prohibitive."

Ionized, AvatarWalt, BobJones -- thank you very much for taking the time to share this great information, I appreciate it!!!

The GC said I must make a decision by today whether or not I want a chimney (for an oil system), so he can order the concrete for next week. I think I will be trying some type of ccASHP, but not sure which brand.

I received a quote for a Rheem RP20, which has great numbers, but some people seem to question its reliability. It is couple thousand cheaper than the Mitsubishi quote, and it qualifies for a small rebate (around $250) from my power company, but the Mitsubishi does not (efficiency numbers not quite good enough). Anyone have experience with the Rheem RP20??

Still waiting for a quote on the Bosch system.

I like the idea of having the company who installs the system do the maintenance, as well. The companies selling the Mitsubishi and Bosch offer full service/repair/maintenance in my area, but the Rheem company is MUCH farther away, and would not want to do maintenance.

Rheem also has a hybrid water heating which looks nice, and since it is a little cheaper, I could afford to get one.

Thanks again!!!!!

Marc, thanks for the post!! Although the heat pumps in which I am interested are not the mini splits, I think they still function rather similarly. The unit specs I have seem to be showing a large difference in KWH usage for heating, but are very close to the same COP, which has me scratching my head a little bit.

The Mitsubishi unit has an HSPF of 11, and the Rheem is 11.5. The Bosch HSPF is 9.5.

The Mitsubishi unit recommended for my house has a maximum capacity of 38,000 BTUs at 17 degrees. Just doesn't sound like much when most furnaces often START around 85,000 BTUs. I know the idea is HP's are supposed to be constantly running, and the furnace would kick on and off, just still seems like a big difference.

oneandonlybobjones, that is all great information, but I don't know why you addressed it to me specifically since it did not answer any of my questions aimed at you. Thanks for posting the study information. I think that I've been exposed to some other studies that David Bohac led. I did not digest it yet. Going by your description, It did a valuable thing by pointing out the dilemma caused by systems that need to work together and need much more than on/off information passed between them to do that. That leaves consumers to buy larger blocks of equipment, furnace and cooling together since the cooling part uses the furnace. The blocks that are offered often have expensive characteristics and features that are not cost effective. Who needs a 99% furnace in Buras LA or, on the other hand, a 35 SEER aircon system in Grand Marais MN?

Have any of these contractors done a load calculation yet? If they have, are they showing a 65 degree indoor summer temperature with outdoor temps in the upper 90s?

A heating capacity of 38K BTUs when the outdoor temperature is near zero will not be enough even if the heat pump runs constantly. You will still need a back up source of heat. It could be an oil furnace. I personally think you are better off with electric heat strips and avoid the building a chimney and having an oil tank.

I think the COP value at 17 degrees is what is important if you are going to compare low temperature heat pump performances.

Mike - Two of the HVAC companies told me they did load calculations using the house plans. They did not offer to share them with me, and since I am not committed to buying a system from either one just yet, I did not feel right about asking for a copy.

All of the heat pumps at which I am looking would include electric backup heat. I REALLY DO NOT WANT to build a chimney, but still cannot be sure if I will be killing myself, money wise, if I go with a heat pump. Chimney costs around $3k.

I can get a nice heat pump setup for about the same cost as oil everything plus chimney. For mild years, I think I would be fine. But with zero experience personally using heat pumps (I'm only familiar with more old, traditional type heating/cooling), it scares me more than a little to make the jump to heat pump, because if I am sorry, I can't afford to just run out and replace the entire system. Since I would be getting an electric water heater with the heat pump, I would also want to offset the extra hot water costs over oil. I had been looking at the hybrid heat pump water heaters, but the one HVAC guy said I should just get a regular electric, that the extra $1485 for the hybrid wouldn't pay for me.

Simm, take this first comment with a grain of salt because my knowledge is limited. Efficiency rating of variable speed equipment was in a very poor state as recently as 3-5 years ago. I don't know if things have been improved a lot. Please anyone, correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that the variable speed equipment is locked at a single speed for the efficiency testing which puts it at a severe disadvantage in making comparisons to single speed. I don't know what it means to comparisons between variable speed/output equipment. It might be the cause of the apparent discrepancies that you see.

You should have the heat loss figures for your new home before you worry about the 38 kBTU figure. You should not use the minimum furnace size to make judgement because it is actually difficult to find models with low enough capacity to fit in some modern homes. Furthermore, a well matched, high efficiency furnace or boiler won't be kicking on and off that much, they modulate their output.

That said 38 k seems low to me, but maybe it is realistic. Others may have better benchmarks than I and you need the real number. Right now, however, I am looking at an evaluation for a ranch house built in 1959 considerably further North than you in central NY at the North limit of the Allegheny Plateau. It features a conditioned basement, and a heat-hungry, many-windowed sun room that heats the house on sunny days but looses a lot of heat at night and on cloudy days. It was well treated with later insulation, door and window projects. There is 1320 sq on the ground floor and the sun room is raised. Total heat requirement was calculated to be 47.5 kBTU.

I hate to think about it because of the cost and because calculations now should be able to tell you if the heat pump will provide the heat you need. If the heat pump, however, can't cut it, you don't need a chimney through the roof for an oil burner. There are condensing oil furnaces and boilers that vent via plastic pipes out the side of the house. I don't have experience with them. Compared to natural gas and propane, there will probably be some stink associated with that.

If I am reading my charts right (my eyes are blurry after four hours of this stuff), the Mitsubishi COP at 5 is 1.82, and the Rheem COP at 5 is 2.0. Can't find the Bosch info.

Thank you, Ionized!! The house I'm building is a 36'x28' two story.

I do know some people who are using directly vented, and have read a lot about condensing oil furnaces, there have been some issues which make me hesitant to go that way.

As some had suggested in this thread, hiring my own energy rater would buy fantastic peace of mind, knowing I am buying the right system, but I just can't afford it now.

Are you sure that there are not State/utility programs that will pay for an energy rater? Time is pretty short with that, but on the other hand, no measurements need to be made since it is new construction. They'd have to look at the plans and input data. This may not be a complete list. There are federal sites that list regional programs. It could save you money if rebates are available for improvements.

PA energy efficiency programs

A properly sized back up heating system (oil, heat strips, etc.) will keep you warm even if the temperature goes below zero. If you are worried how much it will cost to heat your house at low temperatures, then post your estimate cost of a gallon of oil and electric rates. A calculation can be done to show the estimate operating costs.

You may also want to consider propane as the back up heat source. Propane could also be used cooking, drying clothes, and domestic hot water. If you install your own tank you could get better pricing. If natural gas ever comes to your neighborhood converting the furnace from propane is relatively easy.

I agree you can't ask for a copy of the load calculations, but I think you can ask for the heating and cooling loads. I still keep thinking about your hard 65 degree cooling requirement. The duct work needs to be sized correctly in addition to the equipment.

simmtalker, when I looked around the internet on this topic the 2 brands that seemed to come up on the radar were the Carrier unit and Mitsubishi units. As I recall, Mitsubishi boasted operation at a lower temperature than Carrier. I expected to find more information about whether ccASHP's were more efficient than standard units, but there was not much information available, other than general information that these ccASHP units were growing in popularity in states that are further north.

I think ionized makes a good point to reach out to the PA energy efficiency office to get specific efficiency information and ccASHP manufacturer recommendations for your state. The study in Minnesota was interesting because they bumped up against the cost of the equipment vs. the savings from energy efficiency, which caused them to choose a less efficient back up furnace. "In the Minneapolis/St, Paul metro area, a homeowner would pay about $4,250 for a condensing furnace and only $1,875 for the same size non-condensing furnace." Like a lot of things, the devil's in the details. mike_home is right on target with his question of a gallon of oil vs. electric rates comparison to get to the efficiency savings information.

Please let us know how this all works out for you.

Keep in mind that a secondary heat source that is used only a few hours per year might not pay to buy very efficient. If the home is superbly sealed and insulated, it may not pay to stress efficiency of the heating plant at all.

ionized, that's why the Minnesota study went with the less efficient furnace and also less costly furnace. The ccASHP could operate down to 10 F so the furnace would only need to operate for 30% of the days when heating was needed.

Yes, It is a general principle that a lot of people overlook blindly striving for highest efficiency in every home system. I don' think that the OP has time to read the study this week.

Point taken and 100% agree -- I am after overall cost and efficacy, NOT efficiency!!

I have already hit most of the larger companies in my area, and most will not do new construction. Left messages with several smaller companies on Wednesday, never received a single call back. The small company guy that gave me the quote for the Rheem is super nice, but doesn't know anything about the equipment....which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I like people who are out in the world doing work, not reading about it, however, it does leave it up to me to answer all questions I have about the Rheem. I have read reviews that say the Rheem is very loud in heating mode (which is scary), and, if I am reading the charts right, it uses a lot more power than the Mitsubishi does.

I did read parts of the Minnesota study, and also found this study in Vermont. Haven't had time to read much of the Vermont PDF, but I think it may be only about mini split systems.

On this page, I found a nice spreadsheet with most major brands of cold climate heat pumps listed. Only has the major specs listed, but still nice to have in one place.

About SIZING - I did email the company with the Mitsubishi questioning the sizing, and will follow up with the duct work questions which were brought up in this thread. I found CoolCalc, but must be doing something wrong....what I get doesn't make sense. Going to try looking for some other internet sizing calculators.

Most HPs at which I am looking do qualify for $300 rebate (I'll take every penny I can get :D), and I'm thinking about going for a HP water heater, which would also have a $300 rebate to take the edge off the price.

This may not make sense, but I would rather spend more money upfront, have lower monthly bills, and come out even (money wise) than save money upfront, and have higher utility bills....because I'll feel guilty every time I think of using anything in this new house. I know, this is the Heating & Cooling forum, not the Therapy forum LOL!!!!

Thanks again for the help!!!

Here are some cost numbers based on the prices you provided. The costs are for 100,000 BTU of heat.

Oil furnace (90% efficiency) at $2.60 per gallon: $2.08

Heat Pump (COP = 2.5) at $0.15 per KWh: $1.76

Heat Pump (COP = 2.0) at $0.15 per KWh: $2.20

At these prices you can get an idea where it becomes more economical to heat with an oil furnace. However the balance point of the heat pump may occur above at higher temperature than the economic point.

Don't forget heat pumps are sized for the cooling load. In your case the heat pump may be a 0.5 - 1 ton larger since you have a 65 degree summer cooling requirement. This should translate into the heat pump supplying more heat at low temperatures. I would expect the COP value to be about the same.

THANK YOU Mike, that is very helpful!! For our colder times during the winter, oil would be cheaper, guess it is banking on the saving money during the not-so-cold times to help even out the equation.

I just found this software - https://beopt.nrel.gov/home - it will probably be too complicated for me, but I am installing it now.

The savings would only occur in small range of temperatures. You will have to determine how many times you will experience that range many during a typical winter.

The other big variable is the cost of fuel oil It can easily go much higher very quickly.

The crazy fuel market is one of the big reasons I think HP might be a better choice. Electricity rates fluctuate, too, but, at least in my area, never seem to go as crazy as oil/propane can.

Does anyone have experience/opinions about using a hybrid heat pump water heater in central PA or similar area?? I realize it might not work well, as a heat pump, in the cold months, but if it would do its thing in the warm months, I think it could easily pay for itself. Also, I'll be using more hot water in the summer than winter, which would be even better. It would be in a basement, slightly smaller than 36'x28'. Basement has a drain, and a Bilco door (thinking of allow more warm air into the basement in warm months).

I was looking at the AO Smith 66 gallon version. Is this brand reliable?? Doing the math, I am planning on a 10 year life, but the company says 12-15 years, so I think I am figuring conservatively.

I thought I would give a quick update, in case anyone else read this thread wondering about heat pumps. I went with the following:

• Mitsubishi - MPV AA36AA 7 36,000 BTU multi position indoor air handler
• Mitsubishi - MPUZHA36NHA5 (3 ton) Hyper-Heat technology variable speed outdoor heat pump
• Mitsubishi - MEHI0MPL (two stage) I0kw electric heat package
• A.O.Smith HPTU-66 Voltex hybrid heatpump 66 gallon water heater

House is two story, little over 1900 sq. ft., full glass French doors, 13 windows, two half glass exterior doors, standard insulation, and unconditioned basement.

My first full month (electricity bill wise) living in the house was from about November 17-December 17. This period was colder than our normal temps for that time of the year, and I did a TON of laundry (electric dryer, of course -- I had stored a bunch of clothes, and washed everything when moving in). The bill was $141 (I think the electricity was around 11.5 cents, which was down from earlier in the year!!).

I am thrilled with the electricity usage, and am extremely happy with my decisions. We shall see how everything does over time, but at this point, I wholeheartedly recommend with Mitsubishi cold climate heat pump and AO Smith hybrid heat pump water heater!!

Thanks again to everyone who helped me!!!

Do not worry!!! Heat pumps are great systems.

During the winter, heat pumps operate like an air conditioner in reverse. The refrigerant absorbs heat from the air outside and uses it to warm your home.

In fact, most heat pumps can efficiently absorb heat from the air outside down to as cold as 20 degrees or lower!

Simmtalker thanks for sharing your process and experience. I’m considering a similar setup to replace oil heat and no cooling in our Upstate New York home and trying to decide between installing ducts and an air handler for main areas of house plus mini-splits for select zones (where ducting would be hard to run) vs all ductless.

I’m wondering how your experience with the system has been since then, any learnings and whether you’d still recommend?

Thanks in advance!

Don't hold your breath........ this is a 3 year old thread!

Hi Collin!! I agonized greatly over what HVAC and water heater to buy, but I can state, without hesitation, that I am completely happy with my decisions!! The heat pump has performed beyond expectations and electric bills are lower than I was expecting.

The only thing I learned "the hard way" was the thermostat that comes with the system has a lowest cooling setting of 67 degrees - I needed it to be cooler for a relative's health issues. But the thermostat is wireless, so I just place it in a warmer location, such as near a window. Problem solved!

Since I was doing a new build, it was an easy decision to go full ducted, but it sounds as though your situation has more to consider. If I were you, I would still go ducted where possible, just because my experience has been so positive with the system. 

Other than the thermostat, there hasn't been a single issue with the system. I would buy it again in a heart beat, and HIGHLY RECOMMEND ducted cold climate heat pumps!!! And, yes, when the time comes, my current system will be replaced by another heat pump, I cannot imagine a better system for me.

Hello – I’m reading this interesting thread and in case the original author or AvatarWalt happen to see this, I live in Ashland, Oregon and am considering a Mitsubishi H2i heat pump for an upfrade to a ducted system. Are you continuing to like your results? I’m wondering if due to the variable speed, the unit is constantly running and if there is a noise factor in that? I like the fact that I would not be required to upgrade my panel to install the Mitsubishi system, although its not clear to me that the efficiency will qualify for a tax credit under the Inflation Reduction Act. Lots of tradeoffs to consider.

Hi--I haven't reviewed this thread in awhile (or now, for that matter!), but I'm still happy with the Mitsubishi system. I always worry when it gets really cold--for Seattle--that it won't keep up or won't defrost properly, but we've not had any problems, and if cold weather performance has improved in the years since we got our unit, then there's even less to worry about. We had to have the indoor unit serviced this summer because it was leaking water onto the basement floor, but it was just a plugged condensate drain line, so an easy fix and I now know to add a tablet if we're not having annual maintence done. Following that, we did just have a full annual check/maintenance of the HVAC and tankless hot water heater, so we'll see how long I procrastinate before something else breaks. :)

As for noise, the fan on the indoor unit does run all the time, but it's VERY quiet. I have it manually set to high right now to circulate warm air from the fireplace insert, and if I pay attention I can hear it but it isn't intrusive at all. On low, which it is 90% of the time, it's barely audible. And I love how even it keeps the temps: no more blasting hot air, then going dead until the room gets cold, and then blasting again.

One thing to consider, I did look into getting a Nest thermostat for all the things it offers, but that required a wired connection. The thermostat that came with the Mitsubishi, however, has a proprietary wireless link to the indoor unit, so I couldn't use a Nest without lots of effort (so I didn't). I don't LOVE the current thermostat--if it has an automatic daylight savings time setting I can't find it, and it didn't warn us before the battery died so the heat stayed on since the thermostat couldn't tell it to stop. As I keep typing, I'm recalling that it also lost its connection to the system once, and a technician had to spend time on the phone with Mitsubishi to get it connected again, but at least I didn't have to buy another thermostat. I learned after that that there are settings you can access on the thermostat that require a google search for the installer's manual, not just the user manual. I asked for help here when I couldn't manually set the fan speed and that required changing a setting in the 'secret' installers manual.

Sorry for the long reply, but let me know if you have any other questions.

I will echo what @AvatarWalt said. Just had a Mitsubishi ducted heat pump installed on Tuesday 2/21/23 in Portland, OR. The next day, temps dropped to the mid-20s and nearly 11 inches of snow fell at the airport. The heat pump is fantastic. Quiet, consistent, warm-hug heat. It really does warm the house and all the things in it, like the furniture and bed.

I've had the same experience with the air handler fan speeds and (lack of) noise. My ducting (existing) used to make a loud clunk with the forced-air gas furnace blasting air through it. That is no longer happening with the smoother flow rates of the new air handler.

My number one complaint is with the thermostat. There isn't even an option for connecting it to your phone, without buying some proprietary Mitsubishi device and connecting to their Kumo Cloud (which looks very clunky in screen-shots I've seen on the web). After using a Nest for the past two years, I got really used to this convenience, as well as the Nest lighting up and displaying info (outside temps, in my case) when you approached it. Overall, the thermostat feels like it's 15 years behind with regards to the actual heat pump and air handler technology and efficiency. It functions just fine as a basic controller, but it feels and looks decidedly un-modern.

I'm happy to answer any questions about my very short, but happy, experience with the Mitsubishi heat pump.

What a very informative thread , thank you , we are looking at a heat pump and mini splitter system and don’t know where to start. We are in Ontario so we have a lot of winter.
Any starter points would be greatly appreciated.

Here's a great starting place for someone in Ontario considering a heat pump:

https://www.cleanairalliance.org/heat-pump-primer/

Charles, thank you very much , we will be looking at this for next year. We will not have duct work in the space . We do have baseboard heating that currently is not hooked up and will be looking at the mini splits . No sure yet on the rest of it but thank you for the starting point.

Question for @AvatarWalt and @Andrew Arnsberg, if you're still following this thread. Did you install backup heat strips with your Mitsubishi? We're in the Seattle area, and we need to choose a heat pump installer really soon (our gas furnace died yesterday). I just talked to a Daiken installer who insists on including a backup heat system, and insists that a solo heat pump won't work well under 30 degrees, and won't work well when outside air is dry. Wondering what your experience has been with or without backup heat.

We don't have heat strips and haven't had any trouble with the system in the 7 or 8 years we've had it. I think Mitsubishi's HyperHeat is able to extract heat from air down to -13, but how that translates into keeping a house warm probably depends on square feet, insulation, etc. I was reading somewhere else this week about units that work in even colder climates (someone on Reddit asking about Chicago, I think) so it's certainly possible for a heat pump alone to keep a house warm here. I'll admit that my anxiety goes up when the temperature goes down, and I keep an eye on frost on the outdoor unit and on the indoor temp, but we haven't been uncomfortable at all. I was just googling, and it looks like heat strips are pretty easy to install; if that's the case, you could maybe add them later if this sales person turns out to be right?

mcarroll16 We did not install back up heat strips either. I'm not sure whether the other manufacturers have caught up to the Mitsubishi efficiencies, specifically with regards to the low temperatures where they can still produce heat. My parent's just got another brand of heat pump and the contractor sold them a new gas furnace/heat pump combo. The fan/blower sounds just like their old gas furnace system, which is a bummer because they were hoping for a quieter system. The Mitsubishi system is whisper quiet. And so far, no complaints about its performance in the temps we've seen in Portland, OR since I had it installed last February. We are very satisfied with our system, and would recommend Mitsubishi to anyone who doesn't live above the Arctic Circle.

Thank you both! Our Mitsubishi team is recommending the hyper heat. I like that idea a lot. If we get a serious cold snap, I'm happy to put on an extra sweater, and maybe run a space heater in a couple of rooms. The Daiken plan involves an entire electric furnace with a 60 amp circuit--seems like it really destroys a lot of the promised efficiency of a heat pump. So glad to hear that the Mitsubishi truly works in our climate!

We made it through this (Feb 2021) nice and warm. :)

It looks like Mitsubishi Heat Strips (and maybe other brands?) are installed as a unit in the air handler, so an entire extra furnace seems like something you shouldn't have to have even if you do want auxiliary heat.

Ah yes. Feb 2021 was a fun one here in Bellevue too. If you stayed warm then, that's a great reference point for us. Thanks!

I’m still following we hope to get a system in for next year .