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Remodeling Design Dilemma

Cottage gut and addition- staircase placement

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

Hi All-

My husband and I are beginning the demo of my in-laws 1 floor approx 800 sq ft cottage. We are doing a full gut of the first floor (main living area ) and adding a second story (2 baths and 3 bedrooms, plus laundry.) It will be ourselves, our 2 kids ages 4 and 5 and our dog(s) moving in.

The main issue we're having with our architects first design is the stair placement (we feel open stairs are a waste of space if we are trying to maximize the kids bedrooms upstairs.) It seems like a staircase along the back right side of the house would work better.

In addition, the seasonal lake view is out back so we feel the master should be there. The front view is of a bank owned property that will or will not get sold while we are living there (planning on staying 2-3 years to save some $ before we move.)

The existing first floor full bath is being changed to a powder room. He said it would save us money to stack the bathrooms. But the way I see it, this really limits the placement/square footage of the bedrooms. Would moving the plumbing around upstairs really cost that much money?

We definitely do not need a walk in closet and I can probably live with a smaller laundry room (definitely don't need a slop sink.)

FYI- the TV room/den and mudroom downstairs are an existing addition whose foundation would not sustain a second floor. So we cant add on to them upstairs.

We will be adding a wall of windows in the dining room and maybe 1 back to the kitchen. For more reference, there is a house directly to the left, outside the kitchen wall. probably about 15 feet away. The right side of the house is a fairly private side yard area.

Additional photos in comments.

Thanks for reading and we truly appreciate any feedback that anyone can provide!

Featured Answer

User

6 years ago

The first thing I would do is get a qualified structural engineer to inspect the property and put in writing that the existing walls and foundations can support a second storey. People giving rough quotes and saying 'yeah it can be done' shouldn't be accepted as an accurate assessment. If you have the original plans of the build they will be useful however a good architect should already have accessed those. If your current architect isn't listening to what you want it may be time to move on. Are there any properties in the area which have already been renovated that you like? Maybe you could ask the owner about their renovation - most people are happy to talk about it. Tread warily and don't be rushed into agreeing with something you aren't happy with. Also remember quotes are just that. Unless you can get a fixed price contract (highly unlikely) building costs never come out as quoted and allow at least 30% extra.

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Comments (85)

roarah
6 years ago
I think shead offers great advice. If this is only temporary shelter used as an investment stop trying to design it for your needs and start thinking like a flipper. Design with nothing other than potential buyers and economy in mind.
lizzz1016 thanked roarah
shead
6 years ago
Another thoughts just crossed my mind regarding the avoidance of capital gains and that is in doing a like-kind exchange. Don't let the capital gains savings potential cause you to make otherwise financially irresponsible decisions. Eliminate that entirely from your decision-making process. Again, best of luck!
lizzz1016 thanked shead
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freeoscar
6 years ago
If the target is young families, I think you have to try and squeeze in 2 full baths on the top floor. I'd do a shower in the master bath, and a tub/shower in the 2nd (kids) bathroom. As someone with a young family, a ground floor shower/bath has no value to me - neither I nor the kids are going to trek downstairs to take a shower/bath. Maybe you could use the space saved (and existing plumbing) and put the W/D down there. Obviously it's nicer to have the W/D on the bedroom floor, but it's far from odd to have the W/D on the main floor - traditionally that's where it was. And then maybe some linen closets on the top floor - I don't see any in your plans, and the bathrooms are too small to fit one in.
lizzz1016 thanked freeoscar
Fori
6 years ago
Another option for making the kid rooms bigger is...make them share a large room. At their ages and for a few years, it won't be a problem. Leave plans for adding a wall when you sell if you like, but you personally won't really need it.

But seriously, get some estimates on moving plumbing. I think it'll get you something better. With plumbing as it is, there isn't much you can do but what is offered. Sure, it can be tweaked, but it's very limiting!
lizzz1016 thanked Fori
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks Shead and Roarah. I keep going back to the fact that this is essentially a 'flip." Not to get too crazy/nitpicky about everything.

freeoscar- thats exactly what I told my husband. Who wants to trek a little kid up and down stairs to give baths, etc. Revelation re the laundry, thanks!!!! We've been hell bent on W/D upstairs just because the placement of that closet in our current home is horrible (between DR and kitchen.) We're going to seriously consider moving it back down to the main level, in a closet as opposed to room. Maybe off (or in?) the bathroom along that ridiculously long DR. That would free up nearly 50 sq ft upstairs. Again, note to self- "this is only a flip."

Fori- Great idea! My kids are still at the age where they dont need their own private spaces. As long as we plan closets accordingly, throwing up some sheetrock for a wall is no big deal. Plumbing estimates- we definitely will.

These were the ideas I was looking for- thanks so much!!
course411
6 years ago
I'd put the stairs in the TV room space and use the space directly across from the kitchen as a TV/hangout/play space.
suedonim75
6 years ago
Sounds as if you are trying to cram a lot of things into a very small space. You are going to sell this place, do you really think that the next owner needs a dining room to seat 10? You are not going to be permanently living there, so I don't understand why this room is being designed to suit your needs?
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
Course411- that would've been the perfect place but unfortunately the "TV room"/mud room area was added on about 20-30 years ago. It has a separate foundation that doesnt allow to be built up on unless we reinforce the whole area- not worth the $.

Suedonim75- That front area where the DR is drawn must stay that 9'4" wide so we figured the only logical thing to put there is the DR- a table and piece of strorage furniture at the end. It wouldn't necessarily be a 10 person table.

We had asked what the cost of removing that wall and running TGI joists instead would be but we never got an answer from the architect. He just kept the wall as is..... Can anyone give me an estimate of this? We have no idea- $5k? $20K?
SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
I sounds like you are interested in a structural beam that separates the Living room from the Dining room on the first floor and holds up the second story between the master bed and the closet/master bath.

That's a lot of weight with a 17' - 18' span. That is not going to come cheap. If you estimate $15K you would be in the ball park. Again, if we go back to your budget of "roughly" $150K, that's 10% of your budget! When you start looking at things in this way, they add up quickly.

If you "move"/update the plumbing&electrical ($15K = 10%) and add the beam ($15K = 10%) you will have spent 20% on two items....and you haven't added a second story yet. The stairs alone will be another 10% - 15%. Ouch. Now we are up to 30% - 35%.

The average bathroom remodel = $30K. And you are about to update one and then ADD TWO MORE! If you go STUPID CHEAP you can throw up two for $20K each. That's $40K! That is almost 30% of your budget! Oh dear. So far I'm hitting 60%-65% of your budget is gone...and you don't have trusses, a roof, walls or flooring or siding....

With an extremely limited budget, you want to keep it simple. The K.I.S.S. rule is in effect. Keep It Simple Silly.
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks SJ. No beam it is.
freeoscar
6 years ago
lizzz - since you've already spoken with a contractor who works in the area, why not ask him for advice on how much such a beam would cost - that's a much better estimate than someone who thinks remodeling two 5x9 bathrooms would be 'stupid cheap' at $40k. Not my experience at all, and I live in a pretty similar area to yours price wise.
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks Freeoscar.
We have a few contractors lined up over the next few days to give us some more ideas. Well definitely be picking their brains a bit more.
Fori
6 years ago
(I don't mind your crazy size dining room for resale because it's not going to scream "you must use this as a dining room!".)

With what you currently have drawn, what about swapping the front door/porch/designated living room area to the right side? Does that leave the living room too tight? I'd prefer the entry on the right, as well as the LR.

Have you asked the architect to try putting the stairs in a straight run through the middle of the house? It would sort of separate the dining and living areas (not sure if that's good or bad) but possibly allow the master to be in the back. Plumbing could stay put, laundry either up or down.

I dunno. Stairs are hard to visualize. Last time I used an architect she was willing to scribble stuff out for me to show how it could work or why it was stupid. I think you could do with some more scribblings of stair options. They don't need to be super accurate--just good enough to let you know if it's worth thinking about things in a different way.
ksc36
6 years ago
This thread is so full of misinformation it's hilarious. That beam is a days work for 2 carpenters, and about $500 in materials . Stay off these sites and consult with a local contractor.
course411
6 years ago
SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
Structural Glulam beams are not cheap...nor are metal beams. The installation is not too hard...it is the engineering reports that are expensive to figure out load to determine size of the beam and type of supports, placement, etc.

Anybody with a hammer can throw in a beam. It is the science behind the beam that prevents the second story from ending up in the crawl space that makes these things expensive.

Anybody can ask a couple'a guys to add a beam....that same somebody is asking for their roof to cave in at any time.
ksc36
6 years ago
My lumber yard specs. the beam out for free with a simple diagram. The Lam beam company will send a stamped spec sheet if the Building dept. requires it. A typical lam beam for that opening would be about $300, and I allowed $200 for hardware, fasteners and posts. Your inexperience shows...
User
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
A “simple” lumber yard table spec’d beam won’t carry a second floor and snow loads without an actual engineer figuring the load. It will carry the roof and ceilings load of a standard single floor frame construction. And it doesn’t come with the labor to build the temp support, posts and footings for the point loads, and the correct installation. None of that is free. 5K for 10’ is pretty ballpark for any of that. Higher for heavier loads and longer length openings.
ksc36
6 years ago
Maybe you better find a different lumber yard with the proper software. It would take me a couple of hours to prepare a simple sketch, get that beam spec'd, and delivered to the job tomorrow morning. On a gutted house, that's getting a second floor, this is a one day job for 2 carpenters.
roarah
6 years ago
Ksc36 curious when and what was your last addition?
SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
....and what about warranty, inspection reports, liability should anything fail (doesn't pass inspection, etc)?
User
6 years ago
^And that is why you don’t get engineering from a lumberyard. You get it from an actual structural engineer.
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks all. I knew we werent getting support beams to hold up a portion of the second floor for any any less than $5k. Figured LAM beams are more for interior roofing suppport/even decorative accents.
jmm1837
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
OP - if this is essentially an investment with a target of young families, have you considered skipping the dedicated dining room and turning that space into a master suite, which would give you more space upstairs? I realize that won't suit your lifestyle, but as others have stated, that's not the point of this exercise: maximizing profit is.
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
jmm1837- we thought about that for about a minute. The dimensions again, are not the best for a bedroom.
Also, we really think that the target market for resale will be first time buyers or a young family. I don't think splitting up the bedrooms would work.
When I think first floor master (which I would love eventually) I think large house or small 1 level ranch/cape.
er612
6 years ago
Moving the master to the back of the house...
SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
@er612 - where are the stairs?
katinparadise
6 years ago
following
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
Hi All- so we had a contractor with a lot of experience in cape home additions come out to give us some insight.

He told us that the master 'wing' should be in the back for the view and the 2 bedrooms should be side by side in front. (Completely agreed.)

In order to do that, we should place a straight stair somewhere in the middle of the first floor. Im thinking that against the wall of the powder room would be best. This would get rid of the 20 foot hallway upstairs, reduce the Giant DR as drawn and free up the front room off the kitchen.

I reached back out to the architect to give him the ideas and he proceeded to throw a hissy fit.
He is the designer. We shouldnt take design advice from a builder. Those ideas won't work. We wanted open concept and that's what he gave us, etc.

So I have an appointment with another architect this afternoon. Back to the drawing board, literally.
ksc36
6 years ago
I've made a lot of money off so called "nut jobs". These type of jobs are pretty common in my area. With buildable lots starting at over 300k, and strict zoning laws in place, it sometimes makes sense to expand a small home. A second floor addition is usually the best bang for buck (unless you hire a delusional Houzz "Pro".) ....
Gargamel
6 years ago
The "no go" for me would be the washroom right across from the kitchen and living room...
Gargamel
6 years ago
...and there is no storage for "stuff" that comes with a young family
Gargamel
6 years ago
...young children these days seem to have enough stuff to stock Toys'R Us
Fori
6 years ago
There's a tiny hall with a closet between the downstairs powder room and the kitchen. It's not a bad solution.

As far as builder vs designer, well, sounds like one has better ideas. :)
rockybird
6 years ago
I hope you post your progress as you go along. I’m glad you found another architect. Do you have photos of the building?
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
gargamel- the powder room will be tucked away in its own sort of little hallway. We didn't want it right off the living area either.

Trust me, I know- my kids are 4 and 5 and come with A LOT of stuff. We're definitely getting rid of the majority of toys.

They both have IKEA Hemnes dressers which have great deep draweds for clothes. Im thinking most of their toys will be in their closets. Then we will do built ins wherever we can for board games, etc.
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
ksc36- EXACTLY! I don't know where you are but the taxes here are crazy. We build on top and get a brand new 1500 sq feet- and still stay around under 10k in taxes. Spending the 200k, we'll be completely debt free in about 2-3 years. With the $350-400k cash after we sell this place.

If I was to move into something that Id be happy staying in as a 'forever home,' ie, 3-4 bedrooms with a space for my mom/dad when they need it- 550K gets me a 25 year old house that needs major updates and comes with 20k in taxes. Buildable lots are really hard to come by.
lizzz1016
Original Author
6 years ago
fori and rockybird- thank you.
I'm definitely going to update. will upload some before and progress so far soon.
derk5
5 years ago
Following.
Pugga70
5 years ago
Following....
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
Exterior now
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
living room- front left part of house
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
Master bedroom (DR in plans) front right of house. and kitchen with den in left rear
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
2nd bedroom and bathroom (where orig stairs were placed) and mud room
roarah
5 years ago
last modified: 5 years ago
Have you gotten quotes to compare the price of tearing down and building new vs addition. You might be surprised which is more affordable. It can cost more to tie old and new together more often than just starting over.
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
We did Roarah. Everyone said the bones are very good- the foundation especially.

We've got the majority of the walls down now so it looks a million times better. Removing the drop ceiling exposed 9+foot ceilings we can work with and there is hardwood under all the linoleum we may be able to reuse elsewhere.
I'll post current pics tomorrow. I have people in the background of everything I have now.
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
Update: Our new architect realized that we needed a variance as soon as he walked up to the house. First architect never even mentioned it, sheesh. We just got final drawings. Getting pricing from builders next week, permits hopefully to follow right after.
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
Here is what we are now working with.
lizzz1016
Original Author
5 years ago
"Dining room" will be a den/ play area with either pocket doors or sliding doors. Breakfast area will be dining- thinking about getting rid of the closets to make room for a bigger table and doing a server/ buffet and 2 built ins on either side.
TV will be on the left side of living room wall between the windows with built ins on either side. floating a couch or a sectional with a 3 ft (3.5?) walkway between couch back and doors to den.
Possibly extending kitchen a foot or 2 into living space to accommodate an 8 ft island.

Built in mud room storage in the 'bench' area of entry.
User
5 years ago
Design>Bid>ReDesign>ReBid>Demo

Demo is never the first step. Especially when you have no experience in construction pricing and don’t understand the unfeasability of what you are proposing.

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