Installing Hardwood and Engineering Hardwood

6 years ago

I am just trying to get more information for the cost to install Engineering hardwood floor and other. We had 3 contractors that was bidding on our addition for kitchen and bathroom, We informed all of them what we wanted and what need to be including in the bidding- we have given them the same proposal lists that they need to give us the breakdown line by line.

Now one of the contractor gave one of the installation of the engineering Hardwood Floor is telling us that they have given a pretty low estimate. We have a slab floor, so we told them no glue down on the floor- need to be floating that time we have not chosen our engineering hardwood floor. We did our work to check how much the cost of installing - the store and other people charge are based on the Sqft.

The Applachian Natural Red Oak has the tongue and groove, not just click on - so they need to put a little bit glue to join the wood but they are still floating. Once they read the instruction from the company, they are telling us their estimate is too low.

QUESTION to all of the contractor or others:

1: If you place the bids as the whole projects, specially for the installing these engineering hard wood floor, either knowing or not, how do you calculate the cost?

2: In the proposal stage, we informed his employee/project manager that we will need some modification for our kitchen cabinet and our island so that our commercial kitchen can be installed- it is in the contract. They just slammed us with additional cost to install -they are saying it took them time to modify it. This is a big project ( for us) almost $90,000 in labor only-is this very normal practice?

We have been facing so many issues and these are 3 rd time they kept adding and saying some other parts are not included in the contract ( I guess we found out even though the owner agreed on the marked up, when he re vised the contract, for what reason, he decided not to included, he did change the wording on the page that we agreed on without letting us know that causing us the back splash in the kitchen is not included -our proposal are very cleared-long story-we just want to move on and complete this 9 months project) - sometimes we would agreed and paid -almost feeling like bait and switch -but their bidding is not the lowest among others.

I am trying to be fair to every one and we never pay late but still stuck with the contractor game " included or not included". Hoping to get some answers from here.

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PRO

Uptown Floors

6 years ago

Is there anything special about this Appalachian Natural Red Oak? Your title says hardwood and engineered hardwood. May not be the case but some people think anything can be floated including solid hardwoods. I doubt this is the case, but threw it out there.

Glue together engineered takes more time, but not significantly. Everybody is different. Maybe for some reason they decided they don't want the job. Hence, the higher cost.

Comments (11)

hkwan
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Maybe I need to phrase my question : How does contractor put a bid for a big project such as installing engineering hardwood floor? Does they have to calculate the possibility it could be spending more time to install them - or could be less time ,too? Thank you
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You need to do a little more archeological digging still. You need to know the whole construction of the floor before you can decide how best to install something new. I'd take up that plywood piece in the kitchen and see what's under it. It's higher than the surrounding floor, so needs to go. You should also be able to see from there what subfloor is under the original kitchen hardwood. It's too bad the space under your entryway is finished, but I'd still do some exploring from below to see what's under there, and to figure out the fix to stop it from squeaking. Is it drywall below or a drop ceiling? I know it probably seems like a pain to tear out drywall, but if you cut out a clean patch, like 2' x the width of the joists, it'll be relatively simple to repair. Just make sure to cut it down the center of the joists so that there's room to screw the patch piece to it later. Cut the hole under the area that squeaks the most, if you can. Have someone walk on and watch the floor from below to see what's moving. It might be as simple as pounding in a couple shims from below, or face-nailing a loose board from above. You want to find out what's underneath the hardwood. It might be laid directly on the floor joists, or there might be 10" wide boards that the hardwood is nailed to. Another thought is to take out a board in the hallway, since that's not original and you want to replace it. See what the subfloor is there. I am a bit puzzled at why, when you've stripped the kitchen down to the original hardwood, it's still higher than the hallway floor. Is your current surface perhaps not the original kitchen hardwood? Peeling back the plywood area will help determine that. BTW, I haven't heard of that stop squeaking product you linked to, so can't offer any personal opinion. And don't pour self-leveling compound over top of hardwood. It needs to go over plywood.
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ok, this is an area where I actually know something! I sold and spec'ed hardwood for a custom shop before my mommy-life. The information you are getting here is correct. Engineered floors will give you 1-2 refinishings ON A PERFECT SUBFLOOR. One of the issues that sometimes arises if there are inconsistanies in the height of your subfloor. Because there is thinner wood wearlayer (before you get to the engineered wood) there is the chance that you can damage the floor irreparably when you sand it. Now I only saw this saw this happen twice, once on a loft job and once in an older home. 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SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Most contractors will bid a wood floor for 'nail down' install (this includes cleats or staples...doesn't matter). This is the FASTEST and CHEAPEST way to put in a wood floor. As soon as concrete slab is added, things get WEIRD.

Moisture readings need to be taken (did they do that? How old is the house?) and given to the homeowner after the build is done (all moisture readings belong to the HOME/the person who paid for them). ASK THEM for the moisture test results!!! Big red flag if they did NOT do them.

As Uptown Floors points out, the wood you chose may NOT be allowed to 'FLOAT' (roughly 25% of engineered hardwoods are NOT allowed to be floated...they are nail or glue down ONLY). If you chose/supplied a wood that requires GLUE DOWN....then you must pay the price for that.

And concrete slabs ALWAYS need work. If your wood can be floated, it requires a smooth, flat, blemish free concrete (slab preparation can be $1.50 - $4.50/sf) and a vapour barrier. This is ALWAYS needed. And there is NO WAY for a contractor to offer ACCURATE preparation costs with concrete slab. They do NOT know how good/bad it looks until they get in there.

And if your wood that YOU chose MUST BE glued down...the costs just went sky-high. Glue down wood floors are MAGNIFICENT....and expensive. The glues have to be moisture resistant ($2/sf) or moisture PROOF ($3/sf). The glue is very expensive (as you can see) and then the LABOUR costs can double because it takes ++ time to get a glue down hardwood into place.

Ok...the contract and the writing of it...a BID is not a contract...not yet in the "final bill" type of way. So much of this is based on "perfect" conditions. As soon as there is a problem, the bill just went up.

If you are saying the contractor REWROTE the BID to encompass new information, then that is fine. If he rewrote the CONTRACT (as in he is in the middle of the build and decided to write a new contract without your signature on it) without your prior approval/signature then there is something wrong.

Please be clear. Are you talking about a BID - no work has been started? Or are you talking about a FULL CONTRACT - work has already started and you are requesting "change orders" after the final contract was signed? The contract will tell you which situation you are working with.

And yes...there are things called "change orders". They can have a 30% up-charge to them. Some have a straight penalty....others have an increase like 30% fee to change everything (30% extra labour costs + 30% on top of the cost of materials ordered).

I'm sorry but it is hard to tell which situation you are describing. Is it possible there is a language barrier that prevents you/them from understanding what is going on and why?
hkwan thanked SJ McCarthy
Helen
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
I don't know if this is helpful but I am having engineered floors put down on a concrete slab.

I am in a high rise so moisture is not an issue but sound is so acoustic cork layer is a requirement per Code.

As other post stated, self leveling is needed for correct installation over concrete - for approximately 1000 square feet, my cost is $2075.

Are they including installation of base molding and quarter round? I will be supplying those materials but installation for that portion is $1168.00

Actual installation of flooring is $7840.00 plus cost of glue for cork layer, plywood layer and the actual wood floor is $1840.00 plus cost of plywood ($800) and acoustic cork ($2772.)

There are no contingency elements built into the contract I have with the contractor for the flooring although there are contingencies for electrical and plumbing if they discover something completely outside the realm of what might be expected when things are opened up.

An estimate is just that - a contract is the final written agreement when signed but depending on how it is worded, the actual cost of a line item might be more - or could be less or could be absolutely firm absent upgrade changes agreed to by both parties with an agreed upon price - these would technically be amendments to the original contract.

ETA - I wanted to clarify that none of this includes the actual price of the wood flooring which I am supplying which is costing me approximately $8.00 per square foot.
hkwan
Original Author
6 years ago
SJ McCarthy, our contract is stated we are responsible for the materials and we pay for the labor. Unfortunately we never met nor discuss with the owner but only discussed in details ( in the proposal) with the project manager who is the solely the carpenter.) We just found out there were a lot of the DETAILS from the proposal were not explained (per the PM,but who knows) in detail to the owner or almost like "bait and switch" - for example like item #2- he spent more time because the owner did not get him another helper to help him- I told him this should not be the customer's expenses-Anyway we are willing to pay for it.

The owner was offering to renew and establish a new contract from the original contact ( we felt that he cherry picking the items from the proposal, we marked them up then again he decided not to included) for the unfinished works . Once he agreed in our 2nd meeting (another example: he agreed tiling our study room to be included from the original contact in our 1st meeting then when he write the REVISED CONTRACT- he wants to charge us ), but again we are facing the same old stories-he tried to change the wording. We were burned so many times and now we diligently review line by line knowing the owner's personality. He kept saying he lived by the contract-then I told him then he should honor the low estimated to install our engineering hardwood floor including removing the carpet-in the end he says he would honor but he did not including the cost in the new REVISED contract which we add into it - we are so tired with his games.

So now we put a contingency - once we agree with the new contract, no more additional expenses from the previous work was done- and we do agree that we need to be notified first and need both signatures for additional expenses from the new contract. and no more point finger of "not included" since we have discussed in detailed and are in the contract.

The new addition has a hardwood floor installed - with Dri-core. Once hardwood floor was installed- they are some areas squeak- we were told by PM -put a marked up then he would fasten without explaining to us-these would be additional ridiculous charges (PM told the owner, too-we told PM that they should explain it to us- )

Regarding the installing the engineering hardwood floor is for our existing rooms(concrete slabs that has plywood already)- we are told just to put a vapour barrier. Is it possible to let me know what brands for the glues have to be moisture resistant ($2/sf) or moisture PROOF ($3/sf).? The manufacture instruction suggests to use Franklin Tongue and Groove adhesive (cross linking polyaliphactic emulsion glue) www.titebond.com -any suggestions?

This Applachian engineering hardwood floor - FLOATING only needs GLUE between the wood (tongue and groove per the manufacture manual ) then would be FLOAT - this is not to be GLUE DOWN on our concrete floor (could be glue down if necessary but not in our case). Here is the website- on PAGE 9 http://www.appalachianflooring.com/uploads/general/documents/engineered-installation-guide.pdf

We trust the PM and we pay for it- we just want to move on and complete the project-It has been almost 10 months. We have to do what we have to do to protect ourselves now- The owner refuses to install our towel bar in our new shower without charging us, and we told him we will take care them by ourselves.

I will update this post and hoping for a better solution. Thank you
SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
Oh I have so many concerns with the flooring - you have no idea. The DriCore isn't the problem. The laying of plywood OVER cement is a big red flag for me. I know lots of people do it....but the failure rate is pretty high.

The vapour barrier needs to be UNDERNEATH the plywood (I shudder every time I think of plywood sitting on concrete...but I digress). You CANNOT put VAPOUR BARRIER over top of PLYWOOD. You get a moisture sandwich with the spongy absorptive plywood sitting in the middle. You can create soggy central within a year. Not good.

I'm sorry you are having problems with the Project Manager. It sounds like there is a lot of issues all around. Communication is key and if there is one side that has a snick of difficulties, the other will feel like they can use that to their advantage.

Please send photos of that plywood sitting on concrete. And please check to see if the flooring installer is an NWFA Certified Wood Flooring installer. I have a distinct feeling this is NOT the case.

Again, how OLD is the house/original slab?
hkwan
Original Author
6 years ago
SJ McCarthy- so sorry giving you a wrong information!--my husband just told me there is NO PLYWOOD underneath the carpet.= The house was built in 1964.- campanelli ranch style-

Once we took out the carpet- I will send photos- right now we are in the process moving all of the furniture from the living room. THANK YOU
SJ McCarthy
6 years ago
OK...so. You have an OLD leaky slab. No vapour barrier underneath. That means a vapour barrier MUST be incorporated somewhere underneath the hardwood.

Carpets HIDE some of the worst subfloors known to man. That's why people use carpets...they are cheap and they do NOT need the subfloor to be 'fixed'. Laying carpet can save you thousands of dollars just because the old concrete can be left as-is. As soon as you put something RIGID over top, it will need work. And that work can be $1.50 - $4.50/sf.

OK...Now we are on to something. I know that you are living through a big renovation. If the labour costs alone are $90K, then the job is worth at least $180K - $300K (depending on materials chosen). A 10 month renovation for something that big is normal. Some of them can go 18 months - especially if you are still living in the home.

If they have NOT taken out carpets YET...then you are in for some more surprises (re: costs). Be aware of that. The subfloor preparation is going to take quite a bit to get it ready for hardwood.

Keep us posted.
hkwan thanked SJ McCarthy
hkwan
Original Author
6 years ago
SJ McCarthy- 2 weeks ago we got a surprised letter from the water dept- telling us there is a leak inside the house. We were shocked and understood our house is an old house- both of us could not sleep- keep searching around the house. We mentioned it to our plumber - but we did not get any call back ( finally he told us he has back problem). I did a lot of prayer- and I have a hunch it could come from the new addition. We are moving stuff and I saw very wet floor outside the wall of our new bathroom - our PM came over- I found the culprit - our plumber wont be able to come in until Monday ( it has been leaking for 3 months and more). Anyway our PM will bring his friend to fix (license).

Regarding our existing areas- when we bought the house- it had a Parquet floor in the living room and old carpet in all of 3 bedrooms. I cross my finger that I dont see more surprises

Yes it is a quiet big addition and we are living in the other side of the house. Their quality of works are amazing ( never been the issue) but I cant deal with someone who does not have the prospect of honesty, integrity, customer service and respect.- all I can see the owner who is bully, lying,arrogant, Hoping they will be done and out of my house by the 1st of May.
PRO
Daniels Floors
5 years ago
Your contractor may have assumed you were getting a click and lock engineered floor since you want a floating floor. Once the actual flooring was selected, it became obvious that he or she would have to purchase tongue and groove adhesive and also take time to squeeze glue into the grooves of the flooring without getting it on the flooring. This adds time and materials expense to the quote. Still, it is a marginal amount, maybe a couple hundred dollars, depending on the size of the installation. Make sure your contractor has a flooring contractor. There are plenty of guys

guys who think they can do anything.
hkwan thanked Daniels Floors
hkwan
Original Author
5 years ago
Neverless to say-the guy did install eventhough he kept complaining the bid was too low. This guy used so nice to us, once we put a clause on the revised 2nd stage contract-he became a ruthless, rude- he took his time installing the floor, milky his time with his boss, did not want give us any solution to fix the pop up floor in front of the closest. Lucky enough that my closet friend who is carpentry helped us with a solution. This guy even demo my fireplace by mistake :( Thank you everyone-I dont mean to bad mouth,,,never my attention to get a free ride nor asking for free favor

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