Installing Hardwood and Engineering Hardwood

7 years ago

I am just trying to get more information for the cost to install Engineering hardwood floor and other. We had 3 contractors that was bidding on our addition for kitchen and bathroom, We informed all of them what we wanted and what need to be including in the bidding- we have given them the same proposal lists that they need to give us the breakdown line by line.

Now one of the contractor gave one of the installation of the engineering Hardwood Floor is telling us that they have given a pretty low estimate. We have a slab floor, so we told them no glue down on the floor- need to be floating that time we have not chosen our engineering hardwood floor. We did our work to check how much the cost of installing - the store and other people charge are based on the Sqft.

The Applachian Natural Red Oak has the tongue and groove, not just click on - so they need to put a little bit glue to join the wood but they are still floating. Once they read the instruction from the company, they are telling us their estimate is too low.

QUESTION to all of the contractor or others:

1: If you place the bids as the whole projects, specially for the installing these engineering hard wood floor, either knowing or not, how do you calculate the cost?

2: In the proposal stage, we informed his employee/project manager that we will need some modification for our kitchen cabinet and our island so that our commercial kitchen can be installed- it is in the contract. They just slammed us with additional cost to install -they are saying it took them time to modify it. This is a big project ( for us) almost $90,000 in labor only-is this very normal practice?

We have been facing so many issues and these are 3 rd time they kept adding and saying some other parts are not included in the contract ( I guess we found out even though the owner agreed on the marked up, when he re vised the contract, for what reason, he decided not to included, he did change the wording on the page that we agreed on without letting us know that causing us the back splash in the kitchen is not included -our proposal are very cleared-long story-we just want to move on and complete this 9 months project) - sometimes we would agreed and paid -almost feeling like bait and switch -but their bidding is not the lowest among others.

I am trying to be fair to every one and we never pay late but still stuck with the contractor game " included or not included". Hoping to get some answers from here.

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PRO

Uptown Floors

7 years ago

Is there anything special about this Appalachian Natural Red Oak? Your title says hardwood and engineered hardwood. May not be the case but some people think anything can be floated including solid hardwoods. I doubt this is the case, but threw it out there.

Glue together engineered takes more time, but not significantly. Everybody is different. Maybe for some reason they decided they don't want the job. Hence, the higher cost.

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Comments (11)

hkwan
Original Author
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Maybe I need to phrase my question : How does contractor put a bid for a big project such as installing engineering hardwood floor? Does they have to calculate the possibility it could be spending more time to install them - or could be less time ,too? Thank you
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Engineered Hardwood versus Hardwood
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ok, this is an area where I actually know something! I sold and spec'ed hardwood for a custom shop before my mommy-life. The information you are getting here is correct. Engineered floors will give you 1-2 refinishings ON A PERFECT SUBFLOOR. One of the issues that sometimes arises if there are inconsistanies in the height of your subfloor. Because there is thinner wood wearlayer (before you get to the engineered wood) there is the chance that you can damage the floor irreparably when you sand it. Now I only saw this saw this happen twice, once on a loft job and once in an older home. The loft was more subtle as it was over concrete, the old house more obvious as they were DIYers and picked engineered flooring to try to negate their irregular subfloor (they neglected to tell us that that was why they chose engineered, we would have talked them out of it had we seen the floor first) Neither of their claims to the manufacturer were fully settled because both times they did not follow the guidelines for floor prep. The loft job was also a materials only job for us with their GC laying the floors but he insisted he knew what he was doing. A good engineered floor will not be cheaper than most of your nail down options because the production costs are higher. Now having said that, GOOD engineered floors certainly have their place in places where you can't put traditional hardwood due to height restrictions or concrete subfloors. My boss had a great engineered floor in his basement and it survived a flood remarkably well (it was ash, Kahrs brand out of Scandinavia and one of the beefier engineered floors and one of the pioneers) My Grandmother also had a Kahrs floor in her ground suite condo and she LOVED it and I was impressed by the milling. I'm considering it for our basement because it's warmer and less echo-y than laminate There has been a lot of 2nd rate engineered flooring coming out of China and being labeled for all sorts of different companies. You should be able to tell an engineered sample because the layers are sandwiched together and the tongue will be a different wood than the top (showing) layer. Distressed finishes are usually more expensive because of the extra step in manufacturing to make it distressed. That is different than just getting a lower grade of hardwood like a rustic or tavern grade (in solid hardwood). Those grades have more character but they often don't carry a warranty and generally have a higher waste percentage. Another thing to think about---if you ever have to replace part of the floor, you will always be able to replicate 3/4" thick hardwood but engineered floors are more like tile, they change and get discontinued over the years. You could go pre-finished, save the hassle of site finishing but with the thicker wear-layer a 3/4" nail down floor offers. Only you will know if you can handle beveling or not. The changes in milling the last 10 years are huge. The bevel in your better milled wood is tiny. I like Canadian mills, Model or Mirage for pre-finished. Remember that if you ever re-finish, the bevel will disappear and you will, essentially have a site finished floor. One benefit that many people don't know about? With a prefinished tongue and grooved floor you can have a good installer cut out a single board (or more) from your floor if it gets damaged which is why we did a fair bit of pre-finished in new homes since inevitably we would get call-backs at move in to repair trade damage (@#$%^ plumbers and their big wrenches!). Prefinished hardwood deals the best with shinkage and expansion issues because the finish is on individual boards. Site finished floors are more labor intensive but the materials are cheaper (apples to apples). They are what many people consider the gold standard however there are more steps and you don't always know how it's going to look until it's done. There is more chance of finish contamination and trade damage during the rest of the building process. We refinished 100 year old floors. I loved the idea that there wasn't 4 generations of carpet and crap in the landfill. Definitely a forever floor and it can usually be re-sanded for all but the very worst water damage (think entire house under water for a few days) If you are going with a wide plank, keep in mind your species and humidity level (and your ability to keep humidity stable). The wider the plank (with 3/4" thick flooring), the more obvious shrinking and expanding will be. If you take a 2" wide board and it shrinks 2%, it isn't very noticeable. If you take a 6" wide board and it shrinks 2% the gaping will be more noticeable and in the case of a site finished floor *could* pull your finish apart. You'll need to find a flooring contractor in your area with lots of experience. Most of the best hardwood shops ONLY do hardwood. Beware of carpet shops and many of the big box stores in many instances. Make sure they are accredited with the NWFA (national wood flooring association) http://www.nwfa.org/member/ good luck!
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Choosing the right flooring type isn't enough for your living condition. You will have to consider the types of cut: flat sawn, rift and quarter sawn, quarter sawn or live sawn. Quarter sawn and rift & quarter sawn will be best choices, because expansion and contraction is along the thickness of the wood. You will need climate control all year round. 70 degrees at 40 % relative humidity is where you want to be throughout the year. The use of a humidifier/dehumidifier will be needed year round. Although, engineered flooring is more stable than solid. Using the wrong wood specie in your living condition can run the risk of de-laminating with engineered wood. If, the top veneer is more or less stable than it's core and backing. You will experience de-laminating in extreme humidity swings. Take in account of what the engineered flooring is constructed of: mdf or plywood. The width of the flooring will account for how much expansion and contracting also. 2 1/4" strips are the most stable. As you go wider, expect to see more wider seasonal gaps. Proper acclimating is critical, should be performed with a moisture meter. For 2 1/4" strip flooring , sub-floor and flooring moisture should be within 4%. For all other widths 2% moisture differentiation is allowed or should not be exceeded. Don't forget proper expansion gaps, which is the thickness of your flooring, example: 3/4" thick = 3/4" gap. Sub-floor type and condition will affect the performance of wood floors. All this needs to be considered for the proper and successful performance of your wood floors.
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hardwod floors are always and will always be the look. though people seem to not underatand thatbthe reason why these products exist outside of harwood. hardwood is just not practical anymore , yesrs ago youd have certain rooms with different flooring to accommodate the room , now, its all usually open concept and having patchy flooring all over doesnt work. honestly i just dont see hoe you can put hardwood lets say in a kitchen , kitchens take a beating , if you can afford to or want to samf your floors every few years , espec especially if you have a busy household , them go for it , i know of no one that has ever resanded their floors and if so , what a mess. so lvp , laminate etc… all have come along due to the demand for the wood look without the issues of hardwood , so its all a decsion though we have decided on 1400sq ft of coretec lvp, we just love the hardwood though just not practical anymore , i cant have adults and kids tip toeing on our floors. plus in the future if you want a new floor , just pick it up , no demo. just my opinion
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Leather is the most 'recognizable' pattern for cork (other than the ground up cork board look). When it is laid it looks like hardwood flooring using 'shorts'. It has a bit of a brick look to it. Ignore the 'pink' in the samples. The pink is the very first colour to fade away. It takes a few months for the pink to disappear but once it is gone the cork (Leather and Logan) will look more like oak in tone (yellowish with some hints of green and some gray). It is a 'directional pattern' which means it has a 'linear' sense to it. The Logan is the most expensive cork pattern you can get. The slices of pattern are random. They are hand cut and hand laid. It takes *roughly an hour for 1 person to arrange 10sf of the pattern. It is STUNNING. It looks more like stone. It is random...did I mention the pattern is random? Leather and Logan can have the extra 2 coats of the Loba 2K Supra AT = super tough. The Latte is a FANTASTICLY tough finish. It has the polypropylene finish on it. This is the 'non-vinyl' product Cancork sells. It is tough....right after that it is SUPER TOUGH. And then for good measure, it is TOUGH!!! For a Rental property, the Latte is a product I would recommend. It does NOT need the Loba product. That means you save $1.50/sf RIGHT AWAY. It can handle 3mm or 6mm cork underlay. If you are looking for temperature control, then I like the 6mm underneath...but CHECK your door heights, etc. All you need to do is take your floor sample and the underlay sample they sent you (their supposed to do that...sigh) and see if it 'slips' underneath the doors in your home. It is that simple. I hope that helps... As for the Tacoma...I'm guessing you are looking at KILOGRAMS (700 kg) as your weight limit = 1540 lbs. The weight of a standard skid of cork flooring = 1000sf (ish...depends on the product) = *roughly 2000 lbs. And the skid sizes are PERFECT to fit between the wheel wells of a truck bed. I've watched this stuff get loaded into pick-up trucks for 6+ years. A forklift operator can drop that baby into your truck (so long as you do NOT have a 'cap-it') and off you go. If you only have a short way to go, the 2000 lbs won't be much of a problem...I just wouldn't do a trip to Bella Coola with it. ;-)
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SJ McCarthy
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Most contractors will bid a wood floor for 'nail down' install (this includes cleats or staples...doesn't matter). This is the FASTEST and CHEAPEST way to put in a wood floor. As soon as concrete slab is added, things get WEIRD.

Moisture readings need to be taken (did they do that? How old is the house?) and given to the homeowner after the build is done (all moisture readings belong to the HOME/the person who paid for them). ASK THEM for the moisture test results!!! Big red flag if they did NOT do them.

As Uptown Floors points out, the wood you chose may NOT be allowed to 'FLOAT' (roughly 25% of engineered hardwoods are NOT allowed to be floated...they are nail or glue down ONLY). If you chose/supplied a wood that requires GLUE DOWN....then you must pay the price for that.

And concrete slabs ALWAYS need work. If your wood can be floated, it requires a smooth, flat, blemish free concrete (slab preparation can be $1.50 - $4.50/sf) and a vapour barrier. This is ALWAYS needed. And there is NO WAY for a contractor to offer ACCURATE preparation costs with concrete slab. They do NOT know how good/bad it looks until they get in there.

And if your wood that YOU chose MUST BE glued down...the costs just went sky-high. Glue down wood floors are MAGNIFICENT....and expensive. The glues have to be moisture resistant ($2/sf) or moisture PROOF ($3/sf). The glue is very expensive (as you can see) and then the LABOUR costs can double because it takes ++ time to get a glue down hardwood into place.

Ok...the contract and the writing of it...a BID is not a contract...not yet in the "final bill" type of way. So much of this is based on "perfect" conditions. As soon as there is a problem, the bill just went up.

If you are saying the contractor REWROTE the BID to encompass new information, then that is fine. If he rewrote the CONTRACT (as in he is in the middle of the build and decided to write a new contract without your signature on it) without your prior approval/signature then there is something wrong.

Please be clear. Are you talking about a BID - no work has been started? Or are you talking about a FULL CONTRACT - work has already started and you are requesting "change orders" after the final contract was signed? The contract will tell you which situation you are working with.

And yes...there are things called "change orders". They can have a 30% up-charge to them. Some have a straight penalty....others have an increase like 30% fee to change everything (30% extra labour costs + 30% on top of the cost of materials ordered).

I'm sorry but it is hard to tell which situation you are describing. Is it possible there is a language barrier that prevents you/them from understanding what is going on and why?
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Helen
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
I don't know if this is helpful but I am having engineered floors put down on a concrete slab.

I am in a high rise so moisture is not an issue but sound is so acoustic cork layer is a requirement per Code.

As other post stated, self leveling is needed for correct installation over concrete - for approximately 1000 square feet, my cost is $2075.

Are they including installation of base molding and quarter round? I will be supplying those materials but installation for that portion is $1168.00

Actual installation of flooring is $7840.00 plus cost of glue for cork layer, plywood layer and the actual wood floor is $1840.00 plus cost of plywood ($800) and acoustic cork ($2772.)

There are no contingency elements built into the contract I have with the contractor for the flooring although there are contingencies for electrical and plumbing if they discover something completely outside the realm of what might be expected when things are opened up.

An estimate is just that - a contract is the final written agreement when signed but depending on how it is worded, the actual cost of a line item might be more - or could be less or could be absolutely firm absent upgrade changes agreed to by both parties with an agreed upon price - these would technically be amendments to the original contract.

ETA - I wanted to clarify that none of this includes the actual price of the wood flooring which I am supplying which is costing me approximately $8.00 per square foot.
hkwan
Original Author
7 years ago
SJ McCarthy, our contract is stated we are responsible for the materials and we pay for the labor. Unfortunately we never met nor discuss with the owner but only discussed in details ( in the proposal) with the project manager who is the solely the carpenter.) We just found out there were a lot of the DETAILS from the proposal were not explained (per the PM,but who knows) in detail to the owner or almost like "bait and switch" - for example like item #2- he spent more time because the owner did not get him another helper to help him- I told him this should not be the customer's expenses-Anyway we are willing to pay for it.

The owner was offering to renew and establish a new contract from the original contact ( we felt that he cherry picking the items from the proposal, we marked them up then again he decided not to included) for the unfinished works . Once he agreed in our 2nd meeting (another example: he agreed tiling our study room to be included from the original contact in our 1st meeting then when he write the REVISED CONTRACT- he wants to charge us ), but again we are facing the same old stories-he tried to change the wording. We were burned so many times and now we diligently review line by line knowing the owner's personality. He kept saying he lived by the contract-then I told him then he should honor the low estimated to install our engineering hardwood floor including removing the carpet-in the end he says he would honor but he did not including the cost in the new REVISED contract which we add into it - we are so tired with his games.

So now we put a contingency - once we agree with the new contract, no more additional expenses from the previous work was done- and we do agree that we need to be notified first and need both signatures for additional expenses from the new contract. and no more point finger of "not included" since we have discussed in detailed and are in the contract.

The new addition has a hardwood floor installed - with Dri-core. Once hardwood floor was installed- they are some areas squeak- we were told by PM -put a marked up then he would fasten without explaining to us-these would be additional ridiculous charges (PM told the owner, too-we told PM that they should explain it to us- )

Regarding the installing the engineering hardwood floor is for our existing rooms(concrete slabs that has plywood already)- we are told just to put a vapour barrier. Is it possible to let me know what brands for the glues have to be moisture resistant ($2/sf) or moisture PROOF ($3/sf).? The manufacture instruction suggests to use Franklin Tongue and Groove adhesive (cross linking polyaliphactic emulsion glue) www.titebond.com -any suggestions?

This Applachian engineering hardwood floor - FLOATING only needs GLUE between the wood (tongue and groove per the manufacture manual ) then would be FLOAT - this is not to be GLUE DOWN on our concrete floor (could be glue down if necessary but not in our case). Here is the website- on PAGE 9 http://www.appalachianflooring.com/uploads/general/documents/engineered-installation-guide.pdf

We trust the PM and we pay for it- we just want to move on and complete the project-It has been almost 10 months. We have to do what we have to do to protect ourselves now- The owner refuses to install our towel bar in our new shower without charging us, and we told him we will take care them by ourselves.

I will update this post and hoping for a better solution. Thank you
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SJ McCarthy
7 years ago
Oh I have so many concerns with the flooring - you have no idea. The DriCore isn't the problem. The laying of plywood OVER cement is a big red flag for me. I know lots of people do it....but the failure rate is pretty high.

The vapour barrier needs to be UNDERNEATH the plywood (I shudder every time I think of plywood sitting on concrete...but I digress). You CANNOT put VAPOUR BARRIER over top of PLYWOOD. You get a moisture sandwich with the spongy absorptive plywood sitting in the middle. You can create soggy central within a year. Not good.

I'm sorry you are having problems with the Project Manager. It sounds like there is a lot of issues all around. Communication is key and if there is one side that has a snick of difficulties, the other will feel like they can use that to their advantage.

Please send photos of that plywood sitting on concrete. And please check to see if the flooring installer is an NWFA Certified Wood Flooring installer. I have a distinct feeling this is NOT the case.

Again, how OLD is the house/original slab?
hkwan
Original Author
7 years ago
SJ McCarthy- so sorry giving you a wrong information!--my husband just told me there is NO PLYWOOD underneath the carpet.= The house was built in 1964.- campanelli ranch style-

Once we took out the carpet- I will send photos- right now we are in the process moving all of the furniture from the living room. THANK YOU
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SJ McCarthy
7 years ago
OK...so. You have an OLD leaky slab. No vapour barrier underneath. That means a vapour barrier MUST be incorporated somewhere underneath the hardwood.

Carpets HIDE some of the worst subfloors known to man. That's why people use carpets...they are cheap and they do NOT need the subfloor to be 'fixed'. Laying carpet can save you thousands of dollars just because the old concrete can be left as-is. As soon as you put something RIGID over top, it will need work. And that work can be $1.50 - $4.50/sf.

OK...Now we are on to something. I know that you are living through a big renovation. If the labour costs alone are $90K, then the job is worth at least $180K - $300K (depending on materials chosen). A 10 month renovation for something that big is normal. Some of them can go 18 months - especially if you are still living in the home.

If they have NOT taken out carpets YET...then you are in for some more surprises (re: costs). Be aware of that. The subfloor preparation is going to take quite a bit to get it ready for hardwood.

Keep us posted.
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hkwan
Original Author
7 years ago
SJ McCarthy- 2 weeks ago we got a surprised letter from the water dept- telling us there is a leak inside the house. We were shocked and understood our house is an old house- both of us could not sleep- keep searching around the house. We mentioned it to our plumber - but we did not get any call back ( finally he told us he has back problem). I did a lot of prayer- and I have a hunch it could come from the new addition. We are moving stuff and I saw very wet floor outside the wall of our new bathroom - our PM came over- I found the culprit - our plumber wont be able to come in until Monday ( it has been leaking for 3 months and more). Anyway our PM will bring his friend to fix (license).

Regarding our existing areas- when we bought the house- it had a Parquet floor in the living room and old carpet in all of 3 bedrooms. I cross my finger that I dont see more surprises

Yes it is a quiet big addition and we are living in the other side of the house. Their quality of works are amazing ( never been the issue) but I cant deal with someone who does not have the prospect of honesty, integrity, customer service and respect.- all I can see the owner who is bully, lying,arrogant, Hoping they will be done and out of my house by the 1st of May.
PRO
Daniels Floors
6 years ago
Your contractor may have assumed you were getting a click and lock engineered floor since you want a floating floor. Once the actual flooring was selected, it became obvious that he or she would have to purchase tongue and groove adhesive and also take time to squeeze glue into the grooves of the flooring without getting it on the flooring. This adds time and materials expense to the quote. Still, it is a marginal amount, maybe a couple hundred dollars, depending on the size of the installation. Make sure your contractor has a flooring contractor. There are plenty of guys

guys who think they can do anything.
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hkwan
Original Author
6 years ago
Neverless to say-the guy did install eventhough he kept complaining the bid was too low. This guy used so nice to us, once we put a clause on the revised 2nd stage contract-he became a ruthless, rude- he took his time installing the floor, milky his time with his boss, did not want give us any solution to fix the pop up floor in front of the closest. Lucky enough that my closet friend who is carpentry helped us with a solution. This guy even demo my fireplace by mistake :( Thank you everyone-I dont mean to bad mouth,,,never my attention to get a free ride nor asking for free favor
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Installing Hardwood and Engineering Hardwood

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