Bad place for a cooktop, down drafts are not great either and your counter of course will need to be deeper than usual IMO find a different place for the cooktop . The window will get dirty all the time no matter waht kind of downdraft you get.

Really not an option to relocate. Current cooktop is downdraft and we have had no window issues. All down drafts we have reviewed takes up most of the cabinet beneath the counter. This is why we want to extend the window sil and allow for a 1" duct running down the wall behind the cooktop and being exhausted with an external blower..

Is there a possibility you could use a chimney hood in front of the window?

Images: hood in front of window

Sorry mama goose, but we are trying to avoid installing a hood in front of the window,

I have an induction cooktop in front of a window. My husband installed an industrial exhaust fan in the ceiling above which vents through roof (single story house). It is flush with ceiling except for the lip which sticks out about 3/8 of an inch. Has worked fine for the last 11 years. It is noisy when on full but I only use it for frying so it’s never on long and works well.

You do not have enough front to back depth to do this. Overhead venting remains the best choice for people who use their kitchen to cook.

The age of your kitchen and appliances tells the tale that you have a remodel in the very near future. Sooner would yield better results that would be enjoyable longer. And it will allow you to relocate the cooktop to s better spot where you can have overhead venting.

Perhaps you can tell us what your long term plans are for the space and the home. Is selling or a kitchen update/remodel in the future (i.e., next 5 years)?

As Sophie said, overhead venting is definitely better. I have a powerful overhead vent and it gets so greasy and nasty inside from frequent frying that I cannot imagine using another method of ventilation. IOW, all that grease IS going to go somewhere and if not being adequately exhausted, it's going to accumulate on the walls, window, ceiling, etc. Before our remodel, we had a gas cooktop with downdraft and the downdraft was pretty worthless.

We are in the process of remodeling but prefer to leave the cooktop in front of the window. All the cabinets are being replaced, so we do have the option to make the countertop deeper at the cooktop.

Just because you’ve gotten used to a bad layout doesn’t mean that a better layout doesn’t exist. You really should post your plans. Humane’s can adapt to all kinds of crazy things. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t correct that when given the chance for a fresh slate.

Here is a picture of the current layout for everyone. As you will notice, there are no utilities on the outside wall and we are sitting on a slab. We are very leary of cutting into the slab for fear of future drainage issues. The travel triangle is very comfortable and something that has worked well for the last 20 years.

We are extending the countertop and cabinets to the left, and lowering the island to one level. New floors also. The actual room dimensions are 22x12x8 to the bay window.

Post a measured layout. A renovation deserves to be the best it can be. Not just new cabinets in the same bad layout. If you are extending the cabinets down and eliminating the breakfast room, you have a ton of possibilities. Cutting into a dlab to add utilities is not a big deal. You may already have conduit there, as electrical is required in the island.

Youre not giving the layout a chance to be better by doing the same old same old.

Here is a rough dimensional layout. We enjoy the breakfast area as it looks out into our large backyard, so it will be staying. There is power in the outside wall, but no water and sewer. Still looking for resolution on the cooktop venting. Thank you for all the inputs....we appreciate your thoughts and creativity.

I think the solution we used would work for you. With that header you have above the kitchen entrance you wouldn’t even see that the fan sticks out a bit from ceiling.

Reverse the cooktop and sink. Why it was even done that way from the beginning is a mystery.

Or, if you are extending cabinets down towards the breakfast, put the cooktop there, between the window and breakfast area.

This goes against standard industry practice. You're never supposed to put a cooktop/range directly below an operable window--it's a fire hazard. Definitely swap the sink for the cooktop.

Check local codes. Many require minimum 12” from window. This is to prevent potential hazard of curtains and window casings catching fire. Ours is okay because it’s a garden window with good clearance all around. May be an option for you but would mean some loss of upper cabinet space.

Not to pile on =) but yes, move the cook top out from under the window for all the reasons stated above. You have room to move it to the left and you'll gain a very nice prep space under the window.

I also squared up the island and made it one level. Your current
island's shape and raised bar dates it. Yes, you have to move the
plumbing but only a couple feet or so. You might also be able to avoid
cutting into the slab and instead route the lines in the toe kick area. Check
to see what's code and talk to your contractor about doing this.

This is approximately how it would look:

I also recommend that you take the cabinets to the ceiling with tall molding and crown at the top. Not only will you increase storage but that also will make your kitchen look bigger and eliminate the need to dust above the cabinets.

Remount the window cornice higher. You'll get more light and your window will appear taller and more in scale with your high ceilings. I did that in my kitchen.

Before:

The valance is only a few inches higher than it was, which doesn't sound like much but it makes more of a difference than you'd think.

One last tip: go with drawers for your base cabinets as much as possible. The additional cost is worth it because your storage will be more efficient and your capacity will be greater.

Post your kitchen and the layout on the Kitchen Forum as a new thread. You'll get some really great help there.

Can the door to the dining room be moved?

Useful info from the NKBA (National Kitchen and Bath Association):

I've had a 48" Wolf in front of a very large window with a high mounted industrial hood for 23 years. I cook both breakfast and dinner at least six nights a week. I do a lot of quick stir fry/Thai type food. We have our windows cleaned once or twice a year. Since I usually only use the front burners (unless I'm making soup on a back burner) the window remains relatively clean. It is definitely doable; I've been doing it a long time.

Are you going back in the remodel with a double oven instead of a single oven/microwave? If not, you might consider doing a full size range and an under counter microwave. I think if you move the cooktop (which I strongly suggest) you can extend your kitchen cabs a little farther into the nook space and create a nice focal point with a hood. If the oven and microwave are no longer in the right corner you could then move your sink in front of the window and have a nice balance along that wall. That leaves you space to have a rectangle island like Lisa drew that is not interrupted by a sink or a cooktop.

following

We are replacing the 27" oven/mw with a 30" double oven and want to install an undercabinet wine frig along the outside wall, probably at the end of the current counter. We also would like to fill the 8' empty space by the nook with cabinets and a smaller 18" countertop because of table. We are also planning to build in the pantry with drawers and some pull out shelves.

We so appreciate all the suggestions and really didn't expect so many creative ideas. Such a great place for ideas!

What is the diameter of your table? I can plug that in and see how far to the left you can extend the run of 24" deep cabinets and still have adequate aisles around the table.

Since your table is right there, how many counter seats do you need?

In the meantime, here are inspiration photos of shallow cabinetry from one of my ideabooks.

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PS We went from a gas cook top with a pop-up downdraft to an induction cook top with a hood. Zero regrets with both decisions. I never realized how poorly the downdraft worked until I removed the window valances before we remodeled. The lining was tinged yellow from years of grease and dirt. Gross!!

lisa, the table is 48". 24" counter will fit, but it puts the table off center of the windows. Thank you for the pictures. More ideas!

You're welcome!

Another question for you. How deep is your fridge? When it dies, do you plan to get a counter depth model or a standard depth model? CD fridges are about 29" inc. handles. SD fridges are closer to 35" with handles. I wouldn't want to recommend a plan that didn't include enough aisle space to accommodate a deeper fridge later.

One way to deal with today's larger fridges is to recess them a few inches into the stud area of the wall behind the fridge. See Help with recessing fridge in wall - electric/water? and How Do You Modify Wall To Recess Standard Depth Fridge for more information. This gains you a little breathing room in the aisle.

I'll wait for your answer to tweak the plan.

We have considered a CD but have elected to stay with the SD at this time. The adjacent pantry will be modified to a cabinet/drawer combo and the SD frig will be part of the built in design. We can always insert a CD into the SD cabinet, but not visa versa.

Grewa002, what type of exhaust does your BIL have?

An idea for the pantry. This is from Scherr's. Drawers on the bottom, narrow interior shelving so things don't get lost in the back, front space used for door bins.

Looking at your photos and going by the measurements you've posted, I think you've been living with minimal aisles - less than 36" each - at the top and bottom end of your table. That's fine for the bottom end against the window but it's less than ideal for the aisle between your table and island. I'd recommend at least 40" - 42"; 44" would be better.

One way to do that is to create a banquette in your bay.

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Your table would be about 22" from the window, gaining you much needed aisle room between it and the island. It would also allow you to extend the run of 24" cabinets farther towards the window wall.

Is this an option?

Another option is to place the chairs as shown in the first banquette photo so that someone isn't sitting directly between the table and the island. It doesn't gain you as much breathing room as a banquette would but it would help.

Kitchen design always includes compromises, so perhaps narrow aisles around your nook table is one you're willing to live with. However, I know from experience that you can get so used to a less than ideal situation that you don't give it a second thought until someone points it out and offers a solution. Give it some thought and let me know, please.

Still playing with your lay-out, aiming to come up with a functional plan that suits your needs.

I used to be an active member of the old garden web kitchen site when I was redoing my kitchen 7 years ago. I happened to pop over here looking for something else and saw your post. I have my induction cook top under a window so I already knew what kind of response you'd get and I wasn't disappointed!

I put an inline Fantech fan in the ceiling that connects to a small vent housing that is mounted so the grated opening is flush in the ceiling. The specs say the fan pulls almost 500cfm but I have several feet of duct that includes some turns so the actual air movement is less than this. My switch allows for 3 speeds. It handles steam and odors just fine and when I go clean my (homemade) filter it find it definitely had captured grease. My window does not get any dirtier than my sink window so that is also not a problem.

I'm with the other posters though that think your current set up looks awkward. I know your are limited in your layout changes because of the slab but you could consider moving your window and/or getting a new larger window (or windows). Then you could put in a nice hood since its so visible from your living space. You might also want to rethink how much the upper cabinets are dominating your one kitchen wall.

Thank you again Lisa. We explored the baguette idea but decided it did not provide enough flexibility around the table. A smaller table is a possible option, but there are only two of us, and we really enjoy the larger table.

Good to know, thanks. I'm curious to know what you mean by "did not provide enough flexibility...." Do you mean that it would seat as many people as you can with chairs? Or something else?

Our old kitchen table was only 42" diameter but we always used the leaf to it was 42" x 60", which worked great for 4 of us.

Our current table is 38" x 58" (rectangular antique table). I thought it might feel small but it doesn't because the sides are straight, not curved. We are glad of the extra room in the aisle between table and island because it's the main path through the kitchen to the family room and back door. We used to have only 40", not we have 43" (reduced island depth by 1", too). I didn't think it would make much difference but it has.

btw, my DR table is 48" diameter. It's an antique table, this one passed down through the family. It has multiple leaves so extends to seat 10.

Me, again.

You gave the pantry/fridge wall dimension (to doorway) as 3' 6" and 2' 6". That's 72". You don't give the DR doorway dimension or the dimension of the wall next to the wall ovens, only the oven wall cabinet depth (25"). Subtracting 72" and 25" from 144" (room width), I get 47". Is that correct? You have nearly 4' between wall oven cab and the fridge side?

How wide is your DR entry? Is there a light switch between DR entry and fridge side?

Thanks!

OK, let me try to clear this up, thank you for asking. From the front of the oven to inside the DR door jam is 7". The actual DR door opening is 30" and there is 2" from the jam to the side of the frig, for a total of 39" from oven to the side of the frig.

From inside the right DR door jam to the pantry wall is 38".

The left pantry wall is 8" to the inside of the pantry door jam. The pantry door is 24" and from the jam to the family room wall is 9". A total pantry dimension of 41".

So, from the right side of the DR door jam to the family room wall is 38" + 41" = 79".

From front of oven to the family room wall is 79" + 7" + 30" = 116".

Hopefully this is not too confusing, and if I need to update my sketch please let me know.

There is no light switch between oven and pantry wall. Nothing in the wall other than water and power for the frig.

Thank you again for all your help.

• With regard to flexibility, we think chairs are easier to get in and out of versus sliding in and out of a bench arrangement. Plus, we can get more chairs around the table if necessary. Versatile is probably a better word than flexibility. We rarely have more than 4 people at our table, and for larger groups we move to the dining room.

If I understand you correctly, these are the dimensions:

The math isn't adding up. You listed the width as 12' or 144" at the bottom of the drawing but the individual measurements you've provided come to 143". There's an inch missing somewhere. Your photo makes it look like the pantry wall and the nook wall line up. Is 144" correct or is 143" correct?

Also, what is the window dimension?

Thanks for answering my questions about your table. I'm going to do my best to make it work but honestly, the table is oversized for the space, especially given what you'd like to have in your new kitchen, so it won't be easy. I'll draw up a few options for you to mull over and decide what is most important to you. You'll need to determine what compromises you're willing to make and what are must haves.

I also recommend that, if you haven't already, you tally your kitchen items, grouping them by use to determine how much storage space you need and where you'd like to store them in the new kitchen.

I used painter's blue tape on my counters to mark interior drawer widths and set items inside the lines. I included a little wiggle room per drawer.

My plan:

The result:

Weighing your options, and figuring out your priorities and storage needs - your homework - will prepare you for working with a kitchen designer to come up with your final plan and address issues not apparent to me since I'm not physically in the space. Kitchen remodels are expensive so it's tempting to save money by going it alone but mistakes are costly so I recommend working with a KD. Doing your homework makes the process cost effective.

lisa_a...I am going to steal your blue tape idea. Thank you!

You're welcome!

Blue tape is a great tool for planning a kitchen remodel. I used it to mark wider entries, island sizes, and possibly locations of cook tops and vent hoods. I also used large pieces of cardboard to mock up an island hood and a longer run of cabinets.

The cardboard hood confirmed that an island hood would dominate the island and the kitchen, which gave us a 2nd reason to move the cook top off our island. The first reason was inadequate counter on each side of the cook top (16" on either side of a 30" cook top, hated that with a passion!). That meant a much more extensive and expensive remodel (which is why it took 7+ years from planning to execution) but we couldn't see spending a bunch of money on cosmetic updates without also fixing the functional issues. It would have been akin to putting a fabulous paint job on an old car with bad tires.

Anyhoo, planning on paper is very useful but getting a sense for how it will feel IRL is priceless so I used my cardboard and blue tape tools to the max.

For grins and giggles, here are my mock-ups.

I was ridiculously proud of my craft project hood. One of DS1's friends tried to convince me to cover it with foil and make it a permanent art installation, lol.

Once we decided to move the cook top off the island, I used blue tape on the counter and the cabs to show potential locations for a 36" cook top and a 42" hood and I used cardboard to mock up a longer cab and counter run. I left it up for a few weeks to make sure that I wasn't going to bang my hip on the extended counter going in and out the back door (I'm a klutz). I didn't so yay, I knew we could extend the counter run without a problem.

The result of all my careful thought and planning:

It's coming up on 3 years and there isn't anything we'd do differently, not a single decision we wish undone. Now that's a happy result.

And that's what I wish for everyone planning a kitchen remodel!

I drew up the plan I proposed above, with adjustments as needed based on the additional information you've provided. I assumed that the fridge wall is 144" not 143" and gave the extra inch to the fridge portion. I also estimated the window at 36" wide (based on the photo). If these assumptions are incorrect, you'll need to adjust accordingly.

I kept the fridge wall and oven cab in their current locations.

Sink is shifted from its current location, which I realize requires trenching into your slab but thankfully, the sink is fairly close to its current location so costs should be fairly minimal.

I put the wine fridge in the island. That location is more convenient whether you're in the family room, dining room or breakfast nook. It can be accessed without crossing into the prep zone, which is a plus. I tried to figure out how to get stemware closer to the wine fridge but that was a no-go.

I shifted the cook top out from under the window and to the left. This has multiple pluses, IMO.

One, you can vent the cook top with a hood, which is more efficient that a downdraft and won't require increasing the depth of the counter to fit a downdraft (that would steal space from the aisle between oven and fridge side, which is already less than recommended).

Two, it's less expensive. Pop-up downdrafts are easily over $1K. You can get a nice looking, functional chimney hood for less than half that. An undercabinet hood is even more reasonably priced.

Three, having the largest expanse of counter between wall ovens and cook top moves your primary prep zone from one side into the center of the kitchen. You'll take fewer steps going from fridge or pantry to the prep zone.

The aisle between table and island is a bit on the lean side, which is why I recommend placing the chairs as shown in the drawing. Mock it up to make sure you're good with this, though. Now's the time to make adjustments. Keep in mind that the recommended aisle behind seating is 44" (see the drawing I posted above). It's fine to have less than that on the window side because that's not a primary aisle.

I suspect that the island curve will need to be softened so that you can reach the center to clean it. Again, mock it up and see what works for you. I estimate that you'll have room for 3 stools but the final shape will determine that. Allow 24" per person so that people can sit comfortably with enough room for elbows and legs. If you need another seat, you can reduce the width of the bottom right cabinet and extend the counter overhang towards the pantry.

I didn't add uppers above the 12" deep cabinets in the nook area. As drawn, there's a nice balance of cabinets and open space on that wall. It also gives you the option to add a window.

I listed suggested kitchen organization - blue for clean-up, table setting, green for prep, cooking, baking - to get you started. Feel free to adjust to suit how you work. I found it helpful to mentally make a meal using a new lay-out to see what worked, what didn't and how I could adjust it to make it function better. Think about how it would work when you entertain, clean-up, make snacks, etc.

You can amend the plan to keep the cook top under the window but if you do, I strongly encourage you to go with a hood over the cook top for reasons stated above. See the link mamagoose posted above to see kitchens with this set-up.

The dimensions in red show you what you gain with a smaller diameter table,either a 42" round or square table (set at an angle).If you need additional storage, you'd have room for cabinets against the kitchen/family room wall.

ETA: Ignore the dimensions and shape of the square table. I don't
know where my head was but what I drew isn't a 42" square table. It's
much smaller than that. You could probably do a 40" square table and be
okay but a 36" square table would work better. Not sure that's a better solution, though. Mock it up with blue tape. I know you have some, lol.

I tried a few other ideas but they required structural/slab work and I didn't feel that the trade-offs were worth the additional expense.

HTH!

Pie shaped island images.

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Lisa. Thank you so much for all the time and effort you have put in regarding our remodel. So many great ideas, super pictures, and such a creative mind! I spent most of the day updating my dimensions, but before I could send them, you had already sent your layout. Most of my changes are minor and can be accommodated when we do the remodel. Thank you again.

I was going to ask you if you would mind trading your cardboard hood mockup for my cardboard TV and island counter top mockups? LOL We also have yards of blue tape all around the kitchen and other areas in the house.

I used my tape measure this time, and hopefully this new sketch will address some of your questions and concerns. There are probably still a few discrepancies, but they should all be within a livable tolerance. Thank you again for all your time...you are a true champ!

"I was going to ask you if you would mind trading your cardboard hood mockup for my cardboard TV and island counter top mockups?"

lol! Guess neither of us outgrew a child's love of building things with cardboard boxes. And where we would be without blue tape?! I never use it for painting - I'm an excellent cutter-inner - but I always have a roll handy for planning tasks.

You're welcome! I was given lots of help when I was planning my kitchen so it's my turn to pay it forward. It's always helpful to have more than one set of eyes on a space. A fresh perspective turns up new ideas, some worth pursuing, some not, but even the ones that don't pan out help us get closer to the final plan that is right for us.

Looks like you have a little more length and a little less width than I have in my drawing but you're right, these slight differences can easily be addressed as you move forward.

I meant to ask earlier if you knew if the tile goes under the island cabinets or only up to them. I tried to draw the island so that it wouldn't matter one way or the other but if it's the latter, you'll need to adjust the island to be roughly the same footprint. That's going to be tricky but a great KD and contractor will be able to help you do that.

Joe, I edited my post for Plan A above. Please ignore what I drew for the square table. I goofed big time (and no one to blame but myself, durn it).

Lisa, thank you again for your efforts. We will be replacing the floors also so the current island footprint is not an issue. I'm still evaluating a vent that runs inside the wall behind the cooktop, but you have given us some great suggestions for an overhead vent, either at the window, or moving the cooktop.

You're welcome!

My island cook top and vent were in a 24" deep cabinet but the vent extended above the counter beyond the back of the cabinet. No problem on an island; problem when it's in a standard depth cab in a perimeter install.

I have 1 3/4" between my induction cook top and my backsplash tile. Out of curiosity, I checked specs for a few pop-up downdrafts. They were 3/4" to 1" deeper than that but I don't think you'd want to cut it that lean. I think you'd want to add in some fudge factor because it's a good bet your wall isn't plumb and you want it to be able to rise without scraping the wall. No idea how they run counter between downdraft and backsplash and what, if any, those requirements are. That's something for you to research.

If you decide to go that route, one option is to bump out the cook top cabinet only and leave the rest of the cab and counter run at standard depth so that you don't reduce the aisle between wall ovens and fridge. I calculated it at 39 1/4" but since the room is 3" narrower than I thought, that aisle will actually be 36 1/4" to the cab face and less than that between oven and fridge. That's less than ideal, especially given that it's in a doorway.

I'd match the cabinet width to the window's width and bump it out 3" - or better yet, order a deeper cabinet so that you have a little more storage below despite the downdraft bulk. (then again, I'd never go back to a downdraft. Hoods work so much better even at lower speeds. But I digress. =) )

Sorta what I mean:

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Aha, found one! It's fancier and wider than I'm suggesting but it's a bumped out cook top.

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Because your room is 3" narrower than I show in my plan, I'd reduce the island by 3" so that you can maintain a 48" aisle between perimeter counter and island. You'll only have 45" between island and cook top bump out so you might do a little butt bumping when you're working back to back in that section but that's not the end of the world. I'd rather do that than reduce the wall oven aisle any more.

Go for the highest rising pop-up you can. It's working against physics so the higher the rise, the better the capture. It will cost you but even lower rising pop-up downdrafts are expensive. In for a penny, in for a pound. =)

Good luck! Please keep us posted and come back to share your reveal when it's completed. We love kitchen eye candy.

Joe, someone posted this photo on another thread and it made me think of your kitchen nook area.

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thank you lisa. it might be time for a KD.