Forced to remove Sheetrock on all exterior wall to insulate?

6 years ago

Hi!

We are entering month 3 of the renovation on a 3000 sqft home built in 1880. My GC very casually told me on Thursday that I would need to take down the drywall on all exterior walls and last floor’s ceiling to insulate them. He told me that it would be required by the building inspection (upstate NY). Then told me it would cost me 35000 to insulate and replace drywall.
I almost passed out.
Beside the fact that he never mentioned it before, is it true? Do You have to insulate all the house when you do a remodel? The second floor was built later, most likely after 1960 and there is some insulation in the attic (on the floor above the second floor’s ceiling). Insulation is most likely not up to code but it is there.

We had to remove a little bit of drywall on the first floor to do structural work so the walls are exposed in a few places. There is no hiding it from the building inspector.

Thank you in advance for your answers

Featured Answer

User

6 years ago

That’s insane. You can blow insulation from holes in every cavity from inside. My sister had this done on her lathe and plaster walls (1760 house). The plaster guy repaired the holes and all done.

alternatively, depending on what your exterior is, you can blow insulation in from the outside. For example, remove a horizontal line of clapboard about halfway up the wall and another near the top. Make holes every 16 inches to blow the insulation in. Repeat for the upper floor. Throw some flashing tape over the holes and replace the clapboard.

This is all info available online.

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Comments (21)

geoffrey_b
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
No. You don't have to. The home is grandfathered in. Besides, if your home is from 1880 - it has lath & plaster.

My question is don't you have a contract? What does it say? This doesn't sound legit to me. I'd run away from this guy.
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you so much for your answer.
He said this was unexpected. That he saw there was no insulation when he opened the exterior wall to install a new column (we installed new beams to remove a load bearing wall).

We are wrapping up structural and carpentry wall. As soon as we pass this inspection, I will run far, far away from this guy.

Thank you so much.
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"My general contractor offered me to hang a drywall on top of plaster but I dont see a value of this." Oh for the love of God - I wish if people didn't know how to do something or it was outside their range of expertise they would just say so and not propose these ridiculous things that do more harm than good. So he adds more thickness with a layer of drywall - what does he do with the trim then? Rip it out and install skinny cheap modern trim from Home Depot (some do exactly that - ugghhhh) Sorry OP I just had to vent there!! Ive been looking at old houses to buy and theres no end of goofy, futzy things that people have done to them. Im glad you saw the folly of that esp in such an old house. Like fine antiques, as time goes on people more appreciate the old things - esp if well maintained in original condition. You may want to go over to thehistoricdistrict.org, which has many old house lovers on the forum including professionals who can advise in great detail about how to do plaster repair. Especially with your age of house - you might want to confirm what type of plaster you have . There was an earlier type of lime plaster with different composition with materials you might have to hunt for (but certainly are obtainable at reasonable cost) The later type of gypsum based plaster used in early-mid 1900s - materials not available at big box - I think Ace had a type of patching plaster that can work but the plaster of paris that they (and home depot) sells is not good - sets up way too fast and hard. Otherwise any small-mid size city should have a building supply store where they carry the more specialized types of materials - while traditionally plater walls had a three coat system, for repairing cracks Ive just used plain patching or veneer plaster - if a bigger hole you can get a rough coat plaster for first layer and veneer plaster for the top layer. Use a bonding agent on the edges of the old plaster and the lath to help the new plaster adhere well to the old. There's various other techniques for bigger areas and different types of situations - and other people will have their favorite methods and materials (some use drywall compound but IMHO if you have extensive repairs its best (and considerably cheaper) to get the real stuff. Re very fine surface hairline cracks - ignoring those works the best! In a nutshell - plaster repair is exactly the kind of labor intensive but very doable thing that a typical home owner can learn to do, and do well.
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Good point to bring up. I am on the second floor that has a cantilevered floor joist system (18' overhang). The in-floor A/C-HEAT ducting is in the cantilever part of the floor. I had pulled up the original flooring and installed new 3/4' T&G subfloor and while I was in there I insulated the HVAC ductwork and elbow. I did notice cellulose and the occaisional mineral wool (poly-alloy glass as the facing said IIRC) was damp feeling. I removed all of that and used fiberglass to replace it. I had decided to pull more drywall off to see what else I could find. After a foot of where I was I found hard drywall and dry cellulose. The original point I started at was about 18 inches from a window. Off came the window trim. Seems the PO or whoever installed the replacement windows failed to see the logic in insulating between the aluminum window frame and the stud framing in the wall. I believe this was the source of the condensation I had found in the wall. I plan to do more exploring tomorrow, but it looks like the window and perhaps the uninsulated HVAC duct below (about a foot to the left of the window) were the contributing factors to the moisture buildup.
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If you are in a very very cold area with sub-zero winter temps, you will want 2x6 walls if you are using fiberglass. This can be achieved by furring out the walls but it would be a lot more labor for your contractor. (See link below) Another option to get nearly the same R-value in 4" walls would be to use sprayed in foam. This is pricey however since you would need to hire out. If you are not in a really cold area (Chicago or south), 4" walls with fiberglass should work fine. Dense foam sealed in with caulk would give you a little better R-value. You would need a 2" sheet and a 1.5" sheet between the studs. Here is a link that might be useful: Adding Insulation To Walls
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Hiring a competent licensed contractor to do the earthquake retrofit and other items that will be demanded of you during this permitted renovation would be the first order of business. He can guide you as to what would be the most cost effective approach. It won't be what you've indicated. Almost no return on the large amount of expense and labor to do what you're suggesting.
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E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you Cleo for your comment.

That is also what I saw online. That bid was so outrageous, it sent my head spinning and I was unable to talk back to him. I was knocked out.

I am almost scared to go back to the house. This is completely malicious and dishonest. He had been so nice until now, It is scary.
PRO
Anglophilia
6 years ago
Yeah, he's been so nice as he saw you as a cash cow and the funding for not working for the next 6 months! I'd cut him loose and find someone else and have a contract.
MongoCT
6 years ago
You house might be balloon framed. You may be able to access the stud bays from the attic, or perhaps even from the basement, or both. It can vary depending on local methods at that time.

If so, you could blow in dense pack cellulose. "Dense pack" refers to blowing the insulation in at a density greater than it's natural settled density. By installing it at a higher density, it prevents the insulation from settling in the cavities over time and leaving cold spots at the top of each cavity.

Depending on access, you may need to go through an interior or exterior wall to insulate a cavity above or below a window, for example.

An insulator could blow the house, then shoot it with IR to see any weak spots.
functionthenlook
6 years ago
My daughter had foam insulation blown in from the outside. It sure didn't cost anywhere near that .
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you anglopholia for your comment. I am not sure if it would be wise to fire him now. We are finishing the structural job. We have inspection in 2 weeks. If we don’t pass, I feel it will be easier to have him fix it rather than call someone else that would have to take over someone else’s work.
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you Mongo for your comment.

I try to be environmentally conscious and insulate the house is definitely something I want to look into. But I am already re wiring the entire house from the panel, re plumbing from the boiler, added 7 footings in the basement and change a lot of old woods. I would rather wait for insulation as I have a lot of cash coming out right now. Can the town, as he said, forced me to insulate? I thought they forced homeowners to do work on things that are deemed unsafe only.
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
I would not have just gone with it as it definitely seemed outrageous. But I am so grateful for forum like this one and posters that take time to answer so quickly. Thank god for internet. Seriously.
daisychain Zn3b
6 years ago
I’m sure it depends on local codes. We had to have our insulation brought up to a certain R factor to pass code. We had to take out plaster walls and fur out the framing to accommodate that. We could have done foam but that would have been much more expensive. You should be able to check local bldg codes to find out if he’s right.
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
Hi Daisy. Thank you for your comment.

So it is a thing? If we do have to remove all the drywall then the bid makes sense. It is a big house. The house is worth 300000$ . Spending 36000$ on insulation on top of what we are doing makes absolutely no sense financially. I will call the building department on Monday to be sure. I didn’t find the courage to do it today.
daisychain Zn3b
6 years ago
Make sure you ask directly (you may be able to search online for the info). Our Reno was due to a fire and everything had to come down to studs. I think that’s why insulation had to be upgraded. I’m not sure if we had just been doing a regular remuddle but leaving walls intact, if we would have had to upgrade the insulation. Good luck.
User
6 years ago
Well you don’t want to insulate till you are done fishing wires anyway.

Maybe get an insulation company to quote you.

No one can make you tear down the interior of your house. And you are certainly not forced to use this contractor. Keep doing your reading so you can call bull**** on this guy-it seems like he needs a new car or something to pull this out of nowhere.

Plaster is better for a multitude of reasons. One important one being reduction of sound transmission.

I am moving to an old house this summer so about to learn to redo electrical followed by insulation as well. I’m going to blow it from exterior though. Let me know how it goes.

Mongo-nice to see you around here. I religiously followed your instructions on my 2 Kerdi bathrooms 6 years back and they turned out perfect. Thanks again!!
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you Daisy and Cleo. I tried to google “forced to bring insulation up to code” and nothing shows up. I can’t find one person on a forum that says that the building department forced them to tear down wall and insulate. I would think if this would have happened to someone, she/he would have posted somewhere... I read a lot of stories about people going broke to meet requirements from the town but not from insulation. I think the only way to know for sure is to call the building department. A lot of people told me to say as little as possible to inspectors in general but I know the one from my town is highly respected as someone that is fair, reasonable and very helpful. I am the only French person living in the town so even on the phone my identity is pretty obvious right away because of my accent. I will definitely keep you posted. Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and for the support.
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
Hi all! I thought I would come back to update. The first answer summed it all. We are grandfathered in and do not have to insulate. Inspector said he would require any area exposed to have some insulation but that I wouldn’t have to bring it up to code (R21) and could use the cheapest material around. Now, given that we live in cold climate, I am going to insulate. It is a hit in the budget but after thinking about it, I don’t want to go back to it later when we are moved in. After spending hours on google to know if I had to insulate, I am now spending hours to decide whether I should go with open cell or closed cell foam insulation. Price is significantly lower with open cell. Is it that bad? Any thoughts? Thank you again to everyone who helped me go through this very stressing time.
allie
6 years ago
Open cell isn't good with condensation/moisture. It can essentially dissolve. Closed cell is the only way to go with spray foam.

The last issue of Fine Homebuilding or the one before that had a long, detailed article about rigid foam and I believe spray foam was in there too.

If it were me, I'd rigid foam from the exterior unless you have a brick/stone exterior.
ksc36
6 years ago
If you are over budget skip the spray foam, as the next owner will be the one to "save" money on that. Blown in cellulose is your best bang for the buck.
ksc36
6 years ago
By the way, most states have programs to help out with these costs.

I'd dig around here and see what you can find

https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/All-Programs/Programs/Home-Energy-Efficiency-Upgrades
E Grrrr
Original Author
6 years ago
@allie It seems like close cell is better from what I read as well. House's structure is wood and I have a very nice wood siding on top of it.

@ksc36 At this point, with all the damage the electrician had to do to remove the wires, it just makes more sense to rip off all drywall. It would be more expensive to patch and wouldn't look good. But cellulose is a possibility yes. Sadly, we are not citizens, we are aliens. I don't think we are eligible for this type of program. Thank you for your comment.
rwiegand
6 years ago
Call your local utility company for an energy audit. You might be surprised at what they can offer. In MA you can get $2000 credit towards insulation and air sealing every year. I have to believe NY programs are similarly generous. There are no citizenship requirements, you just need to own the property.

Blown in cellulose can be done from either inside or outside, and is minimally disruptive to the structure-- small holes that are easily patched on the inside, or removal of a clapboard or a few shingles on the outside of a wood house. A very cost-effective upgrade.

Don't get talked into ripping out your existing plaster! Your plasterer will be able to very easily patch the kinds of holes electricians make and with a fresh skim coat over the whole wall it will look better than new, and way better than drywall.

Forced to remove Sheetrock on all exterior wall to insulate?

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