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newproject858

Frameless vs. Framed - Eclipse by Shiloh?

newproject858
6 years ago

What are the cons of frameless cabinets over framed w/ full overlay?


I really love the seamless look of frameless cabines, but someone said they are not sturdy as the framed ones. One of the contractors I've interviewed swore he won't do frameless cabinets, period!

Are the frameless cabinets that bad?? Anyone having them for years? I am planning to live in this house at least 20 years and am looking for something that will last very long.


I think for drawer lower cabinets, there is no difference between frameless and framed w/ full overlay , correct? Will it be better if I have framed w/ full overlay for lower cabinets?


I'm especially considering the Eclipse by Shiloh, since that is the brand the KD I am considering carries. I'll appreciate any inputs regarding Eclipse as well.

Comments (46)

  • PRO
    Patricia Colwell Consulting
    6 years ago

    I have used Ikea cabinets which are frameless for 20+ yrs in my design biz and never had problems . IMO a cabinet maker is probably always done framed and doesn’t want to change. I like the ability to have easy access to everything in the cabinets they are easy to clean and i like the look of no frames showing. Drawers are always the best choice for base cabinets and make sure you think about what you are storing in them to get the right drawer sizes. IMO the best KD is one that does not have an affiliation with particular cabinet companies , that means they have freedom to plan your kitchen for you . Designing a kitchen is time consuming and often frustrating so be patient.

    newproject858 thanked Patricia Colwell Consulting
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  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    I used Shiloh cabinets in my kitchen that I did nearly 2 years ago. I used both framed and and the Eclipse

    frameless. I used full inset framed cabinets for the uppers, and frameless for the bottom cabinets. I wanted the bottom to have a smooth, clean look, but the full inset uppers go with my 70 year old house.

    My bottom cabinets are nearly all drawers - many are BIG, wide, deep drawers! They are rock solid and hold very heavy pans etc.

    I used a Shaker style cabinet, but for the top shallow drawers, I used a slab drawer front as I like the sleekness of it.

    I couldn't be happier with my Shiloh cabinets! They are beautifully made and finished, and a true quality product. I also went with Shiloh's standard glides - did not spring for the Blum upgrade. I'm very pleased with them - they work very well, even with heavy things in the drawers.

    Here is a picture of just one wall - my kitchen is fully enclosed, thus I have 4 walls of cabinets. I can provide you with more pictures if you need them.

    newproject858 thanked Anglophilia
  • M Miller
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Me, I'd only choose frameless cabinetry. Have had them for years in different kitchens. Framed have less interior space. Framed have the stiles in the way. Framed drawers will stick if it's humid, unless you get the best quality and pay $$$. And I like the more modern appearance of frameless, but that's personal taste. I believe I read here that the machinery needed to make frameless cabinets is more expensive, so a smaller carpentry operation will be less likely to invest in that. Could be why you received that response from the contractor, but regardless of his reason, he is stuck in the 1980s it sounds like.

    You can have bad quality in framed or frameless cabinets. If you want them to last 20 years, get a better quality brand, and not the type that Sophie Wheeler says is 3Cs (okay, Cheepchinesecrapola).

    newproject858 thanked M Miller
  • newproject858
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    @Anglophillia Your kitchen is beautiful, I love the range, too! How big is your kitchen and how much did you pay for your cabinets?

  • Paul M
    6 years ago

    I am in the middle of a reno and I went with frameless . My only regret is I wish I had went with a 13" or maybe even 15" depth for the uppers. My full size dinner plates will not fit in the frameless uppers without the doors hitting them but they fit in the framed uppers just fine.

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago

    There is no significant difference in standard interior depth between framed and frameless. Perhaps you are thinking of inset which is 3/4” less usable space.

  • loobab
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Anglophilia-

    I would love to see pics of the rest of your kitchen, and bet other Houzzers would as well!

  • Paul M
    6 years ago

    Sophie, all of my kitchens have had framed cabinets and my plates always fit. 12" uppers with a face frame. These new white cabinets lack about a 1/16. the doors hit the plates. I wish I had gone even 1/2" deeper. Last house brown kitchen, new white


    kitchen

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago

    Same plates? That would be a brand specific specification issue then. What brand are they?

  • Paul Malchow
    6 years ago

    Same plates. Ordered new plates they don’t fit either. Cabinets are Barker

  • newproject858
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    @Paul Thanks for sharing your experience. I have a sizable collection of dinnerware and will be so disappointed if I can’t put them in top cabinets. I’ll make sure there is enough inner space, before deciding.
  • Sue 430
    6 years ago

    When we did our kitchen the first time, we used a kitchen company who designed kitchens and also made all of their own cabinetry. They did frameless, I had no idea there was another kind. They held up beautifully. If you are used to frameless, you wouldn’t want framed. You can slide things in and out, and there isn’t wasted space. This time, I did ask about whether there was a difference in structural social nonessential and my contractor said not as long as the cabinets are good quality. I was glad to her that because I wanted frameless again.

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago

    Barker explains it. They have less interior space. Just how they build them.

  • Skil367
    6 years ago

    << What are the cons of frameless cabinets >>

    I don't know of any.

  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    Somewhere on GW in the Kitchen Forum, is my reveal but I'm danged if I can find it! So here are some pictures.

    This is an Ikea island cart I bought and had the base painted black so it would sort of disappear. It's very small - about 39 1/2" x 17" wide. I love the two drawers that open on both sides - VERY handy. And it was about $100! It's solid wood and very well built.


    The cabinet on the wall next to the sink is a custom size one - it holds all my everyday glassware. I wanted it left simple on top in order to display my old copper that my late mother collected when I was under age 8 (I'm now 74, so that was a LONG time ago!)


    My KA refrigerator has hinges that allow an almost flush installation. It sticks out about 1 1/2 " - could have gone further in but this was a major argument with the installer and was not going to have them re-order side panels again. I keep my lesser used appliances such as my Cuisinart, blender, rice cooker, large roasting pan, up there.

    The island area under the glass cabinets is my baking zone. All my mixing bowls, sifter baking pans etc are stored in the cabinets underneath. The cabinet next to the refrigerator is where I keep brown sugar, baking powder, extracts - all the things one uses when baking. You can see my KA mixer lives on the counter, as does my very small microwave - it was a perfect place to tuck it in. Yes, open area is a bed are for my dog. I did order a shelf and door for re-sale value.


    This is my main prep area. I really rarely prep by my sink as I don't buy a lot of fresh veggies - mainly just asparagus. The counter is 5' long and a joy when serving up plates for my family for special occasions. I adore my Breville toaster oven - it's the smallest size. I like to use a pot rack as I want my most used pots right at an easy reach. My spices are in a Rev-a-Shelf drawer unit in the drawer next to the stove. Under that, is a cabinet with a drawer in the top - it's for lids and pot holders. Under it, are vertical dividers for all my trays - silver and cookie sheets and al points in between. The narrow cabinet is also a Rev-a-Shelf unit. It holds three stainless containers for spoons, spatula, whisks, etc, and on the shelf underneath, a space for all my vinegars and cooking oils. Love being able to pull it out and get exactly what I need! Top drawer under toaster oven is for various zip lock bags, foils and plastic wrap. Under it are two deep drawers that hold a small mixing bowl, measuring cup, colander, and various sizes of plastic containers and their lids for leftovers. Bottom drawer is for my Le Crueset big pan, various cast iron pans, and other assorted oddities.


    The kitchen is 11' wide by 15' long. You can see I had the kick plates painted black at the factory - they hide kick marks, dirt - the kind of things kick plates get. They also make the cabinets sort of "float" and make the room feel longer and wider.

    My cabinets were just under $20,000. The entire kitchen came in at about $28,500. BUT...I only replace the garbage disposal - reused all the appliances, the Glacier White Corian counter tops (the 5' unit is new as refrigerator was once on this wall), the integrated Corian sink, the Perrin & Rowe faucet (very expensive), and all the lighting with the exception of one extra pot light in the ceiling in the corner you see into the back hall. The huge bay window was done in 1985 when we gave the existing old cabinets an update and bought the Corian countertops as well. Lighting was done in 2003 and new dishwasher at that time (also sink and faucet), refrigerator and Vent-a-Hood were purchased about 2012-13. Stove is a 1948 O'Keefe & Merritt that we bought when we lived in LA - LOVE it! Tile backsplash is large subway tiles in white honed Carrera marble. They tie the Repose Gray cabinets together with the white countertops. Hardwood floor was also put in in 2003.

    So, as a friend said, I ended up with about a $50-60,000 kitchen but took over 30 years to pay for it!

    I could not be happier with this kitchen. I'm not a fan of open concept, and I love that there can be 3 people working in this kitchen - one at the sink, one at the baking counter, and me at the stove counter, with a 4th carrying plates in and out, and no one is tripping over anyone. The island cart works as a landing zone for lots of things - groceries, taking plates needed out of the cabinets, things out of the refrigerator. I'm a very organized cook and I also clean up as I go. I like having a LOT of counter space! The door is the main door to the back yard and is used by the dog multiple times daily. If I'm home, it is kept open - great Pella insulated full glass storm door. The kitchen faces due West and is VERY bright in the spring sun with no leaves on the trees. This is why I chose gray instead of white cabinets - they would have been blinding!

    I have pictures of the interior things I did in various drawers that I can post if anyone is interested. I spent a LOT of time thinking about and planning this kitchen. I knew where everything was going to go before the cabinets were even ordered. Yes, I'm a bit obsessive, but this is the only new kitchen I've ever done or ever will do in my life, so it need to be "right".

    Hope this helps!

    newproject858 thanked Anglophilia
  • Annie
    6 years ago

    Beautiful kitchen Anglophilla! I'd love to see your interior drawer features!

  • newproject858
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    @Anglophillia Wow, so beautiful!! I especially love the bay window and the collection of your mother's copper wares. I was ready to settle with an average kitchen, because there were so many decisions to make already, but you motivated me to rethink that. Could you show the pics of your drawers?

  • zmith
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I never tire of seeing Anglophilia's wonderful kitchen. :)

    There is a difference in drawer width between framed and frameless cabinets when comparing the same cabinet size, because the face frame of a framed cabinet takes up about 4 inches of the width.

    Heed Sophie's advice to pay attention to the cabinet construction specifications because cabinet depth is only one aspect. Barker cabinets use a hanging rail behind the cabinet back, and that takes up some of the usable interior space. Not all cabinets are manufactured in that manner. This mainly affects the upper cabinets, as Paul M. has unfortunately discovered.

  • loobab
    6 years ago

    Anglophilia- Your kitchen is just great! Thank you so much for being specific about all the details, your planning is apparent. I would love to see the interior drawer features too.

  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    Okay - here goes with the "innards"!

    This is the large drawer right beneath the drawer above. It mainly holds tons and tons of Pyrex pans. And my Le Cadeaux melamine plates for outdoor use! I LOVE the drawer-in-a-drawer as I don't have room for a pantry and can easily see all my canned goods this way.

    This drawer is probably one of my favorites in my kitchen! I had a custom stainless steel drawer liner made for the dog food kibble. <https://www.kennedyhardware.com/custom-bread-drawer-liner.html>; It's really made to be a bread drawer but it works perfectly for kibble. It will hold a 19 pound bag of kibble plus extra. No bugs, no mildew, no smell - SO nice to have it out of thee old painted pop corn tin on the floor!

    This is the custom glassware cabinet. It is quite shallow as I did not want it blocking the window, nor did I want to be reaching way back in a cabinet for glasses. When I designed the original one (build to match old cabinets in 1985, I just laid a few of the glasses out on their sides and measured. Since the uppers are all full-inset, we did have to make it about an 1" deeper (one loses the depth of the doors, which is typically 3/4"). This cabinet is SO useful!

    This is the bottom big drawer near the stove - very heavy stuff in here and it works perfectly!

    This is the Rev-a-Shelf cut-to-fit spice drawer that is next to the stove. I could not find the piece I cut it from for my old cabinets (found it last weekend in a major basement clean-out!), so I used the old one that is a bit smaller. Actually like it this way. I love that I can see all my spices and can organize them by sweet/savory. No, the heat from the stove does not cause deterioration, and that old stove is insulated like a tank!

    This is in the cabinet below the spice drawer. It is a drawer-in-a-cabinet and is very handy for pot lids and pot holders.

    Tray dividers right below above drawers. SO handy!

    Love, love love this! It got all my often used utensils off my countertops, where they were always covered with dust and pet hair. Handy to reach cooking wine (I use dry vermouth on the recommendation of Julia Child!), oils and vinegars. All without taking a step when I'm cooking at the stove! I found mine new-in-box on eBay for less than my KD said he could buy it!

    I did not have room for an under-counter trash can, nor do I like them. Things often "miss" the can, they can overflow when others are helping in the kitchen and no one wants to change the bag, and splatters can occur. I love this Simply Human stainless can - it's now about 10 years old. I do recommend using a non-slip pad under it as it does tend to "walk" and will scratch the floor. I bought this one and cut it to size. Think I got it at Bed, Bath, and Beyond.


    newproject858 thanked Anglophilia
  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    Forgot to add that in all my upper cabinets (haven't taken pictures!) that hold food stables, I have used bamboo turntables - some one level, some two level. They are so much more attractive than the plastic ones and work so well to keep from losing jars/boxes. All drawers/shelves are either lined with clear plastic ribbed shelf liner or cork liner for drawers with noisy things (hate all that clanking). Got both at Bed, Bath & Beyond.

    The interiors of Shiloh cabinets are wood-look melamine in the full-inset cabinets, and white melamine in the lower European cabinets - drawers are wood-look to match the drawer boxes. Both look good and are SO easy to keep clean. I still like using shelf liner, but then I'm a dinosaur! I also use paper drawer liner in my clothes chest drawers!

    Under the sink, I used vinyl covered wire baskets I had used in my old cabinets. One is a big one-level; one has a 2nd level for spray bottles on one side. I also have Rev-a-Shelf plastic sponge holders on the doors themselves - great for silver polish, sponges, Scotch-brite pads to clean my Corian etc. I have one on each door. On my old cabinets, I had the tilt-out kind under the sink, but they will not work with the Shiloh frameless lower cabinets (don't know if they work with any of Shiloh cabinets), so I had to improvise. I do not like stuff on my sink. I do keep two wands in the sink - one with Dawn and a Scotchbrite pad and one with Dawn and a brush - buy those at Krogers. The Corian sink is 9" deep and they are well hidden but right where I need them and no drips.

    All my pulls are from Look in the Attic. They have a fabulous selection of pulls. Mine are solid, polished brass. They are un-lacqured - a "living" finish. That means they WILL tarnish and the ones on my upper cabinets have done so significantly. I will take them off before I go away for nearly 5 weeks this summer and take them to my local brass polishing shop and have them polished and lacquered. I assume it is caused by the fumes from the 5 pilot lights on my ancient gas stove. Gas rises!

    Even though these pulls were solid brass, they were quite reasonably priced - think they were under $15 each. I had fallen in love with some I saw in a picture of a Gwyneth Paltrow pop-up store in NYC. Finally tracked them down - they were from Waterworks and were about $245 EACH!!! That was not happening. I think I needed 26-27 pulls for my kitchen! I did use just one pull on all the drawers. I did this on the recommendation of a friend's son who builds custom cabinets on Martha's Vineyard. He said when there are two pulls, people always always grab for just one and that causes the drawers to come out of alignment with the glides over time. He's right! I'm not a fan of the big long pulls that are open at the end - they always catch in my pockets!

    I did do a blind cover on the upper glass doored cabinets. I wanted that space back in the corner for my crystal glasses - I have 12 of each style and need that storage space. I was talked out of doing it on my sink cabinet - have regretted it ever since. I could have used it to hold extra rolls of paper towels which now must live in my basement. Not a big deal, but don't let anyone try to tell you that blind cabinets are not worth the extra cost if you know how you will use them.

    Another thing I learned was that with most good quality cabinets today being made from 3/4" furniture grade plywood, drawers and cabinets will be smaller inside than older cabinets that had thinner boxes. Duh!!! Should have realized that but didn't until the small lower cabinet drawers were installed and I discovered things that fit before didn't, and that I could barely get my dishes in the same size uppers as I had before (think old ones might have been 1/4 o4 1/3". Made it work but it was a surprise. I did know (from GW!!) that I needed to make my uppers deeper since full-inset doors take up 3/4" of your inner space on the bottom shelf.

    Another thing I learned (but didn't follow) was that unless one pays for an upgrade the bottoms of upper cabinets will be unfinished plywood. I don't have table space in my kitchen so I didn't think I needed them and didn't get them. Didn't realize how important it can be until I had DGS's loading my cabinets while I sat in a DR chair pulled into the kitchen, so I could "point"!

    I also had not ordered a light rail as my previous cabinets didn't have one and the under-cabinet lighting was hidden just dine. Not my new ones! I didn't like the style or the width of the light rails offered, but discovered that the small 1" flat trim with rounded edges worked perfectly and luckily, my KD always orders lots of this stuff as it's very useful.

    I have 8ft ceilings and was not happy with the way the millwork on top of my cabinets looked - just out of balance. So, I went and found a couple of pieces of that molding mentioned above and had one added below the crown molding, and one that hid the seam of the upper cabinets from that wide flat piece of molding. It looks perfect!

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  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    More info: Lighting. I used pot lights in my ceiling - two on each side, one in a corner (added with this remodeling), and one that tilts to direct light to my kitchen sink. I am not a fan of kitchen fixtures as they are grease/pet hair/dust collectors. I know - it's the "look" these days, but I'm not fond of cleaning them and I don't want dirty fixtures where I am preparing food.

    I used high quality under-counter lighting, that uses Xenon bulbs. They are much brighter and the color is truer than LED lights. I've had these now since our "lighting remodel" in 2003 - reused in this kitchen and other than replacing bulbs, have not had any trouble. I like that the switches are individual for each light as I rarely have more than two on at once - I don't want my kitchen lit up like a Walmart store! They, together with the white countertops, give me plenty of visibility in my kitchen for cooking. And this is with old eyes that have had cataract surgery (one typically needs high wattage bulbs afterwards)!

    Paint - SW Repose Grey half- strength on the walls with magenta left out of the formula. Cabinets are SW Repose Grey. I used very, very white paint for the trim as this gray can easily go "greige" if there is anything creamy around it. Ceiling is painted in high gloss enamel. I always do this in my bathrooms and kitchen as it is more moisture resistant, and is fully scrubbable (yes, grease fumes do end up on ceilings, and no, I do not fry chicken in my kitchen).

    Floors are on-site finished hardwood. They were put in in 2003 also - do not go under the cabinets as they couldn't then, either. A big of adjusting was necessary to hide where floor edges were cut. It is finished with high gloss (gym floor) polyurethane. I have that finished throughout my entire house. It lasts much longer than "Satin" and the shine does dim a bit with time - when it's first installed, one wonders when the local basketball team will be showing up for practice! I like nice shiny floors - easy to keep clean (all that pet hair!), and it always makes a house look clean and bright.

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  • shead
    6 years ago

    I have frameless cabinets with full overlay but designed to look inset. Love them and will never have framed cabinets again! They are rock solid in their construction. I took a lot of pain in the design and used a custom cabinet builder, who did a fantastic job - pricey but amazing!

    newproject858 thanked shead
  • cpartist
    6 years ago

    Are the frameless cabinets that bad?? Anyone having them for years? I am planning to live in this house at least 20 years and am looking for something that will last very long.

    Obviously some idiot who doesn't know what they're talking about said this. I had frameless in my first house back in 1987 (Ikea), frameless in my last condo and have frameless now. All have held up beautifully. Like you, I prefer the look of frameless.

  • loobab
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Anglophilia-

    Thank you for explaining in such detail, that's just marvelous, I learned so much!

    A few questions.

    How can your drawers carry the heavy weight of multiple cast iron pans?

    How is it that insects can't smell the kibble in that bread drawer?

    If your wood floor are finished with a high gloss polyurethane, does that make them very slippery(dangerous) if you spill something and happen not to notice?

    What do you mean by a blind cover for your cabinets? I know what blind cabinets are and how in the corners you need to extend one all the way and add a filler piece adjacent to the perpendicular one in order to make full use of the space, but what does the phrase "blind cover" mean?

    I don't understand your wall paint- What does this mean? "Paint - SW Repose Grey half- strength on the walls with magenta left out of the formula."

    Did you use Repose Grey in other rooms downstairs too?

    What color white did you use for the ceiling?

    How did you decide on Sherwin Williams?

    On another note, do you really not wash your vegetables?

  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    The Eclipse drawers by Shiloh and their cabinets, are built like tanks! They are the heaviest things I've ever seen! No problems at all with all that weight!

    I don't live in a part of the country with huge insect problems - the occasional fly, spiders like crazy in the fall, and an occasional "ant run" from the back door to the kitchen sink in the spring. I think that the drawer itself is so thick and solid, and that this and the stainless steel, just keep the odor of the kibble in the drawer. I also did not put it on the bottom of the 3-drawer run - being over with my pulmonary problems causes me to be very short of breath, so having it as the middle drawer works perfectly. But I don't have silver fish or roaches in my house at all!

    High gloss floor have only been a problem for a couple of VERY elderly dogs in the last 4-5 weeks of their lives. I put down a few small throw rugs for my old dears. It's not at all slippery - nothing like a waxed floor can be.

    When a cabinet reaches a corner with another cabinet at a 90° angle, one has two choices; one can have regular boxes and leave a blank, empty space in that are where only the two front corners meet, or one can have one of the cabinets (your choice which!) go all the way to the wall. It ends up having an open part of the side against the other cabinet - it's side serves double-duty. It gives one more storage, even if it is not as easy to access. For me, the trade-off was well worth if in order to get a set of crystal out of a basement cabinet and all of it together in my kitchen.

    My cabinets are a standard Shiloh color - SW Repose Gray. I was not 100% thrilled with this color but could not figure out why until it was too late to change my order to fully custom paint color. So, I did the next best thing - reflected color. I painted my walls 1/2 strength as I wanted them a bit lighter and with some contrast - I did not want to be in a concrete bunker! I had the formula changed and had them leave out the very small amount of magenta/maroon (SW has used both color names - not sure which is correct), as it tended to turn a bit pink in certain lights. This has helped the cabinets NOT do this nearly as much. It's a very small thing, but then I'm a very detail-oriented person who can tell if something is off by 1/8th of an inch!

    I do NOT have an "open concept" house, so there is no gray paint any other place in my house! I like each room to be painted in what suits it, and that flows with the next room, but is not identical. It's why I am NOT a fan of "open concept"!

    I always just use "ceiling white" unless I'm doing a porch and use Haint Blue. I like reflected light and I have 8 ft ceilings so, it helps the room feel taller and a bit more airy.

    I used SW paint as that is what Shiloh uses for it's paint colors.

    Veggies? About the only fresh ones I buy are avocados (does anyone actually wash a veggie that must be peeled - I don't!) and asparagus. The asparagus gets peeled if it's thick and woody; nice thin asparagus goes directly into boiling water so why wash it as well? In the summer, I peel my tomatoes and shuck my corn, and berries are only rinsed in a berry colander right before using. Other than that, I buy frozen veggies.

    I'm also not a germaphobe! My mother was - I'm still rebelling against that at age 74. I AM a germaphobe when it comes to hand washing - have pulmonary problems so hand washing is the best defense against infection.


    newproject858 thanked Anglophilia
  • loobab
    6 years ago

    Hi Anglophilia-

    Thank you for the information.

    I don't know what painting 1/2 strength with the Repose Gray means.

    Does it mean diluting the Repose Gray paint 1:1 with a pure white primer?

    Does it mean mixing the Repose Grey with a glazing medium to make it more transparent?

    Does it mean using full strength Repose Grey but less coats of it?

    Also, how did you get Sherwin Williams to leave out the magenta-maroon from the Repose Gray for the wall? Do you just go into the store and ask them to do that and they will?


  • shead
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    loobab, if you tell the folks at Sherwin Williams you want 1/2 strength, which means 1/2 tint or 50% strength, or any other % you want, they will mix the paint using only that amount of the original tint. Their computers do the work so they can enter the % and their machine gets told what to do. If you want to leave out a certain tint that is part of the formula, they can override the formula with a 0. Hope that helps!

    My house's main color is 75% Repose Gray and one room is 50% Repose.

  • loobab
    6 years ago

    shead-

    I'm sorry to be so thick, I don't know how this works.

    I thought tint means a color plus white.

    So if you ask for a 1/2 tint of a color from the paint company, does that mean they give you that paint 1/2 strength plus the rest white?

    Or are they giving it to you 1/2 strength plus something transparent that just thins out the paint, like in decorative painting with acrylic paint, you add glazing liquid also called glazing medium to make the acrylic paint more transparent (because water isn't good for a number of reasons.)

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Simplified.

    Paint bases are the liquids that hold the colorants and stick to the walls. You add different tints to them, like Lamp Black, or Red Oxide, or Yellow Oxide, etc. Glues plus pigments and other chemistry to create better wear, and the different sheens.

    In a 3 base system, the Deep color base will have no white in it whatsoever. It’s basically clear. So whatever pigments you add will have a deep rich tone with no pastel. You add red oxide to this, and you get a deep rusty red. This is why deep tones take so many more coats that light tones. Many of the colorants are sheer, or have little hiding power. That’s why primer is especially important with deep colors.

    The Midtone base will have some white in it. Maybe 25% titanium dioxide, if it’s a good brand. Cheap brands use some kaolin, which isn’t as bright a white, but is cheaper. You add red oxide to this, and you get a mid terra-cotta tone.

    The Light or White bases are where you get your pastel toned colors. They are maybe 50-60% titanium dioxide. You add red oxide to this and you get a light peachy pink.

    If the colors you want is that light peach pink, and it calls for 1 oz. of red oxide, and you ask for it to be 1/2 strength, your light peachy pink will be even lighter, because the mix doesn’t have as much tint to it.

    But it is not a linear thing, and it changes when you have different bases. Or you try to color match one brand in another. This is greatly simplified. A half strength color may appear only slightly lighter if the base that the original color is mixed in is the Midtone base. And it doesn’t work at all in any color that uses a Deep tone base. There is only so much pigment that can be added to the glues that hold the pigment to the walls. And you can’t mess about with paint chemistry too much and have it work. So, no “double strength” deeptone colors, for instance.

  • loobab
    6 years ago

    Sophie Wheeler-

    Thank you for explaining the chemistry of it.

    If I am understanding you, asking for a percent of a house paint color is not like adding white to a primary color of a tempera paint, where the amount of white you add is directly proportional to how light the pastel tint you end up with.

    So asking for a 50% of Repose Grey (just for example) will not necessarily get you a Repose Grey that is 50% lighter, and asking for a 75% Repose Grey will not necessarily get you a Repose Grey that is 25% lighter either.

    So how would you know what you are going to get?

    Why would someone do this?

    Aren't you going to waste a lot of money experimenting like this on gallons of paint?

    And how can you tell them to leave out the maroon or the purple and have any idea of what you'll end up with?

    Or are these things like specific adjustments of % ages and taking out a certain pigment of certain colors written down with their results recorded for people to look up?

  • sheloveslayouts
    6 years ago

    Anglo - here are the links to your reveal. Your kitchen is beautiful. I always appreciate when people so generously share their project details and lots of photos. I'm so glad yours weren't lost to the photobucket debacle.

    https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4779243/finally-my-kitchen-reveal-work-completed-in-aug-2016

    https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4779258/kitchen-reveal-continued

    https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4779267/kitchen-reveal-continued-part-3

  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    Oh, benjesbride, thank you!!!!! You're a genius!

    Loobab, when one paints, it is inevitable that money may well be wasted on paint that doesn't turn out right. Even companies that allow one to buy small test cans, have their limitations - some are not TRULY the same as the gallon one might later buy. I bought 3 gallons of paint for my porch beadboard ceiling before I finally got the right color - just no way to see how it would look on MY ceiling with my light! But having some put on by oneself or the painter is far less expensive than having the entire thing painted and then hating it and having to pay for a do-over.

    I had a problem with the color of my sample cabinet door. I knew it changed color with the light in my kitchen. I had also bought some of the same paint color from SW, and had painted an existing cabinet with this paint to see if I liked it. The two colors didn't look the same, BUT they were on different walls and took the light differently.

    It finally occurred to me to take the sample cabinet door to SW and ask them to scan the color and compare the formula with what I had bought (that was supposedly the exact same color). Well, that was illuminating! I discovered that my cabinet door actually had just a small amount of maroon/magenta in the paint; what I bought at the store had it too, just less.

    I couldn't change the cabinet order, but I figured that if I left ALL of the maroon/magenta out of my wall paint, it might help with no reflection of the color from my cabinets (paint does this - reflected color can magnify). So, that's what I did and it has worked for me.

    Any paint store will have YOUR new custom color in their computer, and they will also print out a label with the formula on it as well.

    Yes, it is a tedious, expensive thing to do. It's only for picky people like me - most people just don't care that much. Paint stores do this all the time though, so I'm not the only picky person out there!

  • loobab
    6 years ago

    Anglophilia

    Thank you for your further explanation.

    That must be infuriating to waste that kind of money at $50- $100/gallon.

    And just adds stress to the paint job.

    (I do think painting is more stressful than moving, and that was before I knew about this aspect of it!)

    Now I understand, your cabinet door from the cabinet manufacturer painted Repose Grey looked different than the Repose Grey out of the can, so the paint store color scanner analyzed both paints for you and found that the paint in the can had less of the maroon/magenta pigment.

    I was thinking you had a preternatural ability to suss out the differential contribution of a specific pigment in a paint color!

    Now that we have all these different types of light bulbs, maybe the paint stores can have test canopies lit with the different types of bulbs under which people can stand with their paint strips to see what can happen to their paint colors, or some type of special glasses people can wear to mimic the various lighting, or some type of computer simulation that illustrates this. If people are returning opened paint cans and asking for their money back, it might save the paint companies money in the long run to develop this technology. (I have seen returned paint cans.)

  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    6 years ago

    My local SW store took pity on me with the Haint blue ceiling paint and didn't charge me for the 3rd can (which was finally right). I could have bought quarts (and sometimes do), but I knew I needed more and it looked right at the store. Of course, lighting is everything.

    I've been doing this for so many years (bought my first house in early 1969) that I just expect it and hope for the best. I don't always have to do this - grays are hard and I was working with wood and wall in a very bright room.

  • Marissa Tenenbaum
    6 years ago

    What did you decide?? I am currently deciding between shiloh frameless with full overlay. was initially going to do inset. I'm comparing to Brookhaven and not 100% sure yet but most likely going with shiloh. have heard great things about them with really no complaints

  • newproject858
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    @Marissa, I am still at a planning stage, but have decided to get frameless. I've seen framed w/ full overly doors of several different brands and liked none of them. There are so many choices to make, good luck for both of us.

  • Marissa Tenenbaum
    6 years ago

    @newproject858 have you looked at the Shiloh line? the Ecclipse line?


  • newproject858
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    @Marissa Yes, I have seen Shiloh - inset, Shiloh - full overlay and Eclipse. Inset looked the best among those 3. Since I am not a fan of inset, I've decided to search other brands.

  • newproject858
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    @Anglophilia, have you upgraded the Eclipse with plywood? If you haven't, can you tell the difference between Shiloh(plywood) and Eclipse(MDF)?

  • PRO
    Anglophilia
    5 years ago

    I went with the Eclipse MDF - those suckers are heavy and solid as a rock! I have large, deep, wide drawers with heavy things in them - zero problems!

    newproject858 thanked Anglophilia
  • newproject858
    Original Author
    5 years ago
    @anglophilia Thanks! I haven’t finalize my decision yet, but Eclipse is on the top of my list now. :)
  • PRO
    The Kitchen Place
    5 years ago

    Here's a pic of our new display without tops yet. These are the MDF standard construction. Anglophilia is right...they are very heavy! Really only person who benefits from the plywood upgrade is your installer...his back will thank you. :-)


    Photos below show MDF and also a couple of the drawer options: standard wood or laminate in a laminate gray metal finish.




  • Paul Malchow
    5 years ago

    You are saying MDF = Plywood and heavy = solid?

  • PRO
    The Kitchen Place
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    No. I was saying that MDF construction is very heavy and with frameless, the way to go. No need to upgrade to plywood. Only person that really benefits (from plywood) is the installer because they are lighter and easier to install.

    If someone insists on plywood with frameless, I'll do it. It's their money and their cabinets.