Are you kidding?? We are not experienced with timber floors so don’t have the tools to re sand & re coat.... where do we get the product from, noone seems to know anything about Loba, no one from Loba responds to our calls or emails. The rug is new & only been on the floor for 2 weeks ( the floors were done 3 months ago). Surely we cannot be expected to remove our rugs for sun exposure.... what then happens if we walk, vacuum, mop floors when rug is removed, then we get more scuff marks. This product says.... hard wearing, perfect for high traffic areas but we can’t lay rugs, walk, vacuum or coexist in the space..... we have been told not to use hand wash as it marks the floors.... it’s COVID.... my kids need to wash their hands but cant because the Loba floors will

mark..... please, this just isn’t ok, surely????

These are the repair procedures. Whether you want to follow it or not. It's entirely up to you. The finish will need to be ordered from a source outside of Australia.If, it is not available there. Finishes are not indestructible.

@HU-231824251 My first impression is that if you contracted for use of one of Loba's 2K (meaning two-part, catalyzed) finishes, then it would appear your refinishers may have failed to use the hardener. Some finishers skip adding the hardener and apply just the base to make application easier for themselves and to cut back on fumes, but it is never recommended. The lack of hardness and lack of chemical resistance you are experiencing is precisely what I would expect to see in the event that the hardener wasn't used as part of a 2K system. Please clarify which Loba finish was contracted for use. You may need to have the flooring tested or evaluated and consult with a construction lawyer if the finisher refuses to take responsibility.

@ HU- 4251

As a former seller of Loba products I ALWAYS explain the 'no rugs for 6 months' stuff. Always. The 'exotic hardwoods' (exotic from a NORTHERN Country perspective = South America and South Asia and Oceania) are OFTEN photosensitive. That means they DARKEN when exposed to sunlight. Your hardwood has darkened in the sunlit areas and remained pale under the rug.

I'm in Canada and have sold cork flooring (yes...cork) to New Zealand and a few times to Australia. Cork FADES heavily from sunlight so the OPPOSITE happens. The sundrenched areas are VERY pale whereas the areas under a rug stay bright orange.

Either way (photosensitivity vs. bleached) it is ALWAYS 'Best Practice' to leave area rugs off the floor for 6 months (whenever possible). The 'floors were finished 3 months ago' isn't long enough for your local wood. It obviously wants to go VERY dark. Leave the area rugs OFF the floor.

I know you don't like the idea but hear me out. You are upset about the finish....I get that. But the RUG SHADOWS are NOT finish related. So do yourself a favour and remove the rugs. That ONE irritant will be removed from your home. You are in summer time so leave the rugs off the floor until winter 2021. Yes. Leave them off until the seasons have turned.

Now onto the finish. The white dot is suspicious. It is a PERFECT circle. That is VERY rare for a 'splash' of some sort. I wonder if some liquid hit the floor BEFORE the 7 day 'full cure' happened. I've seen this before. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm just offering a different opinion on how this got there. If water drops or splashes on a fresh finish that has NOT FULLY CURED (cured means FULLY HARDENED) then a water mark can occur. It isn't very common because most homeowners are kept out of the house for the full 5-10 day cure time (not 'work' time but CURE TIME...that's the time after the LAST COAT was applied).

Now onto the scuffs. These aren't scuffs. A 'scuff' is when material from an object is laid DOWN.

Eg. A black rubbered shoe leaves black rubber marks on a basketball court (hence the reason why treads should be white or flesh toned).

A deep scratch is when something sharp pierces the finish and HITS the wood. That is an issue. You do not have this issue. By the photos your finish is fully intact and doing it's job (even though you don't like the LOOK of it while it is going about it's job).

You have a BUFF mark. As in a POLISH mark. That happens when something RUBS against the LOW GLOSS floor and the rubbing/buffing/polishing leaves a GLOSSIER mark. Like buffing your car, the floor can be buffed in the same way. This is commonly seen with LOW GLOSS finishes like Loba Invisible or Bona super matte.

You have never experienced this before because you had the HIGHEST GLOSS possible before. Sigh. I know it is painful to learn these things. Please have patience.

You do NOT have finish failure. You have an EXTREME finish (the extremes are 'super gloss' and 'extra matte'). The super low gloss finishes are HARD to live with. Many of your concerns (minus the white dot) have all occurred before with low gloss finishes. Especially when homeowner moves from one extreme (high gloss) to the other (extra matte).

It is Christmas time - everywhere. Almost everyone is in COVID lock down of some sort. Even Germany (where Loba was created) and the North Carolina (USA) office - because the US is on fire with the virus.

The reason why everyone has 'ghosted' you is two fold: holidays plus PANDEMIC = no response.

Please believe me when I say this: Your floor is FULLY protected. The finish is doing it's job. I know it is upsetting but NOTHING can hurt the WOOD underneath.

Please LIVE your life while you wait for some suggestions from the Loba people (remember: Germany has a 5 WEEK WINTER BREAK) after the NEW YEAR.

Personally I would move to a SINGLE COAT of Loba 2K Supra AT in Satin (or semi-gloss) and move on. They do NOT have to do a full sand/refinish. They come in a do a buff and coat with the new stuff. I guarantee you will feel MUCH BETTER with the slightly higher gloss of Satin (not much glossier but it helps). Or if you want a good GLOW on your floors then move to semi-gloss.

I promise. Your floors are doing OK. A fix can be as easy as a new coat of SATIN...and remove the rugs until Hallowe'en/Fall Equinox.

Thank you. It is so comforting to get a response from someone who knows what they are talking about. The stress of our contractor becoming difficult & dismissive & blaming us for not looking after our floor has been too much. We were not given any information about the product or any after service care. Had we known how much different these floors would have been to our everyday life we would never have agreed to go with this product. We can’t even vacuum our floors with our new ( and expensive) hand free Dyson as it leaves permanent track marks. Those white chemical burns are all throughout our kitchen & living space.....there are 35 of these dots in total & they look hideous. I bought rugs & runners to hide them but now as you mentioned I need to remove them as this is causing another issue with the colour. We have 94 sq mtrs of these floors, it’s a large space & really hard to manage 3 little kids & trying to stop any more marks appearing. We have reached out to Australia Loba reps but they can’t explain the issue & quick to blame us. So frustrating. Thanks again for your advice, it’s appreciated so much at this time of year.

I'm glad I could pull you back from the edge! (smiley face smiley face wink wink)!

Now...the worst feeling in the world is 'helplessness' and that's what you are feeling right now. I get it. Here are somethings you can 'work on' to gather as much information as you can about your floors (because you will be asked about it by the Loba people).

For those who work with imperial measurements 94 square meters = (roughly) 1008sf:

1. How many coats were applied to your floor?

2. How long between each coat?

3. How much Loba was purchased/used (checking for coverage per gallon)

4. How long AFTER the last coat was applied were you allowed to move back in? (ie. how long was the 'cure time' before you were allowed to move furniture back onto the floor)?

5. How long before you 'damp cleaned' the floor for the first time?

6. How often do you 'damp clean' the floors?

7. What type of cleaner are you using when you damp clean the floors?

8. How often do you use the cleaner vs. just water?

9. How long before you saw the FIRST splash spot?

10. How long ago did the 'latest' spot occur?

11. Are you still able to create splash spots?

I know this is SUPER frustrating. I hear you. There is NOTHING worse then the heartache of having beautiful floors turned 'ugly' in front of your eyes (I LOVE wood so I am right next there next to you sista')!

Stephanie

You are a saint 🤗 Our main issue now is that our contractor won’t return calls or emails & has become nasty so he won’t disclose to us exactly what he has done. No idea how many coats or wait time etc What I can answer is everything else, when we moved back in, when spots appeared etc The other issue I think we will encounter is responses from the Australian Loba reps. I have had them to my home & have followed up with phone calls. I was blatantly told to take it up with the contractor & Fair Trading (Australian Consumer Affairs Regulators)....grrr sad face crying face

I know...the GC is supposed to be the one to 'deal' with the issue. There should be a 1 year 'quality of work' guarantee (there is in Canada and often in the USA...don't know about Aussie land).

Does Australia have a professional wood flooring association? Or any voluntary wood flooring society? Often these people will organize themselves so that they have a form of 'legal' backing. The US/Canada has the NWFA. They are a voluntary society which 'governs' the quality of work being done to/with wood flooring. They are well trained to perform inspections and write reports that hold up in Canadian/US courts.

These reports can be enough to shake a GC out of their 'nope; don't wanna' attitude. Because the reports are written to meet Court Standards of an "Expert Witness" (Canada and Australia have almost identical court requirements) the THREAT of having someone investigate the application is enough to bring GCs back to the table. It is cheaper to repair/recoat a floor like yours than it is to go to court and lose.

Just a thought for you to look into. Just in case you need some help looking for quality assurances, use the NWFA link to figure out what pros SHOULD be like.

www.nwfa.org

And Loba has a US website or a European Website. You can use either to move forward with some form of 'product' concern. The product is theirs....they usually are interested in finding out 'weird' things about their product. It keeps them on their toes (they are chemistry geeks and they LOVE a good challenge).

www.loba.de/us/

I've heard of other issues with Loba Invisible. It has some issues like the marking and the scuffing and the polishing. It is something the company is beginning to take seriously. So keep plugging away. Your Loba Australia Rep. might not be as up to date as the US side of things.

The Loba 2K Supra AT (satin, semi-gloss version) is NOT as problematic as the Invisible AT. That one I know for sure!

@HU-231824251 Do you know exactly which finish was contracted for use on your flooring? Loba has many different formulations, and it would help us to know which one you are supposed to have. There are oil-based, water-based, 2K, and one-component finishes from Loba, for example.

@SJ McCarthy If the finish currently on the floor is a 2K product, wouldn't a coat of Loba's WS 2K Contact in addition to sanding be required to bridge between the previous layer and a new one? I'm currently coating multiple planes of cabinetry with 2K Supra AT and have found that a new coating easily rolls off of a side that has already cured if there is any overlap, and that is after several days of the new layer being finished.

The top photo is the product he used, bottom is the Care brochure he gave us after the job... I just noticed the care brochure is for a different product.... could this also be the issue? We were told we could move back in 2 days later. We didn’t get this brochure until a week later after we noticed marks.... what do you think?

@HU-231824251 I wish you could be here to see the utterly confused look on my face. That bag doesn't even look like the real 2K Invisible Protect product which comes in a plastic jug with a strainer pour spout and a separate small metal can of hardener to be mixed together with the base. Do you remember or know if there was a jug inside of that packaging? Do you know if a small metal can was used with the base jug? At any rate, if the finisher was missing the metal can of hardener to mix with the base, then that is primarily what is causing your problems. You will have failed chemical resistance and failed hardness without the additive. There would have been no catalyzing action without that hardener additive, rendering the "2K" system inactive.

The brochure you have is for some type of Bona product which is irrelevant to products from Loba, a totally different manufacturer, and also irrelevant to 2K products which have their own care concerns. The general cleaning tips you were given are good, but you should wait 5 days for a Loba 2K product to completely cure before moving heavy items on it, and be aware that some customer reviews would indicate that the Loba 2K products continue to harden even after 5 days, so be careful with the floor in the early weeks.

What to do now? I think the company owes you a free refinishing if indeed they failed to use the hardener with the 2K system. If they are more familiar with Bona, then maybe you should ask for Bona Traffic HD next time to get something with which they are familiar in terms of application. Loba's 2K wear is among the best on the market for flooring finishes, especially if you were to go with Loba 2K Supra AT finish in satin or semi-gloss. However, at this point, most anything would be better than what you currently have if it is an uncatalyzed coating that was meant to be two-part. If your finishers are inexperienced with catalyzed finish application, then steer clear of Loba 2K or find new finishers. For 2K, they will need to lay down the finish within highly specific parameters in order to get a smooth, durable surface since 2K begins to flash dry extremely quickly.

@SJ McCarthy suggested putting another layer of Loba 2K finish on top of what you have, for which you'd need to sand and probably use Loba WS 2K Contact first, but if what you have is already uncatalyzed, it may not hold up well due to not providing enough hardness for the initial layers. Also, once you start getting past about a 13 to 15 mil thickness on your total layers, the longevity of the coating is compromised. You need just the right mil thickness to allow both durability and flexibility, and that turns out to be around 4 coats (primer plus 3 topcoats) at around 3 to 4 mil each.

Post a picture of the chemical you spilled on it and the wheels of your vacuum. And which Australian timber specie do you have?

I think the 'bag' is the label from the Loba 2K Invisible Protect AT. The 'AT' is the 'Advanced Technology' written to the very right hand side of the title.

As suggested above, the HARDENER is a metal tin that is 1/10th the size of the big jug. Please think hard about whether or not you saw the metal tin at the house during the refinish.

The 'Bona' Directions are for a VERY different Bona product line. Your refinisher failed to tell you about the length of time you needed to be off the floor.

Here's how the time line SHOULD have gone:

1. Sanding the floors to expose raw wood with at least 3 grit levels. With 1008sf (94sm) this should have taken 1-2 days depending on how many people on the job site.

2. Vacuuming of the surface + water-damp tack cloth of the entire floor then go for lunch

3. First coat of primer/finish applied once the wood had dried (tack cloth application)

4. 4 Hours AFTER the first coat of product the SECOND coat of product is to be applied (this is the EARLIEST it is allowed to be applied)

5. Only 2 COATS of product can be applied within a 24 hour window.

6. NEXT DAY: A light sanding/screening of the wood is done before the LAST coat of finish!!!!

7. Vacuum and lightly water-damp tack cloth the dust - go for lunch

8. Apply 3rd/final coat of product to the floor (should be 'afternoon' of day 3 or 4!!!)

9. Come back next day and remove plastic drapes (if any...for the dust containment during sanding)

10. Allow 5 DAYS for 95% cure - no work boots, no furniture, NOTHING going on in the house for 5 FULL DAYS

11. Day 6 AFTER the final coat: family can move back in - furniture can be GENTLY placed on the floor - no shoes in the house or hard toys played with on the floor

12. Day 7 after the final coat - 99% cure has been achieved and full life can be lived

13. Day 14 after final coat - soft rugs can be placed in kitchen area and at door ways. This means dog beds or cat beds can be added to the floor.

13.a. FIRST DAMP CLEANING ALLOWED = 14+ days after FINAL COAT. Water only.

14. Area rugs "allowed" on the floor after 1 month....but this is NOT encouraged....fading/darkening of the floor should be allowed for 6 months after the sand/finish.

Sigh...I'm sorry to say but the 2 days is not enough for Loba AT products. The ideal is 7 days without ANYONE in the house...but 5 days is allowed so long as you live 'lightly' on your floor. I'm going to hazard a guess that '3 children' are going to be rather hard on floors.

And if you are living on the floors after 2 days...that means you will be using the sink after 2 days. That means it is very very very possible water hit the floor BEFORE the 5 - 7 day CURE occurred. This is what I was afraid of.

It is possible for water to hit the UNCURED top layer and sink into the floor. That water can seep past the FIRST layer of finish but STOP at the second layer (before hitting the floor). This causes a white blemish which is UNMOVEABLE....because it is BELOW the layer of finish (sandwiched between the two actually).

These spots would have formed for the first 1 - 5 days (day 2 -7 of curing) while living on the floor. These spots can indicate a BOND issue in those spots. Any wet/damp cleaning done during that time would have also been an issue.

The WHEEL marks of the vacuum would have done the same thing over the same time period.

A recoat with Loba 2K Supra AT is easily achieved. All that is needed is a light sanding/screening of the EXISTING finish (takes off 1/2 a layer while giving it teeth to stick to the next layer) and then a FULL COAT of the new product. The 'AT' lines are VERY sticky. They stick to one another very easily. They just need a little help re: sanding.

The only thing I would be concerned about with a recoat = plenty of attention given to the 35 white spots. So long as those are taken off completely I think you will be very happy with the 2K Supra AT (not the invisible).

@Aglitter

@Heather Galindo

@SJ McCarthy

Thank you all for your very long and detailed responses. You all were so helpful and I appreciate it all. We are still in a dilemma here. No one is able to provide us the Loba...so we have gone with Bona. However, the floor contractor and I are at a disagreement.

Just to confirm...if we use Bona Natural or Bona Nordic, do we NEED at Finisher? If so, how many coats of seal and finisher?

Thank you so much!

Hmmmm switching products mid finish is not advised. If you are going with Bona then you will probably have to sand everything down to the raw wood and start again....yah...not fun but it is the most responsible way to ensure a properly bonded finish.

Bona is the name of the company. Bona NaturaSeall is a sealant...not finish. Bona NordicSeal is a sealant...not a finish. Just to be MORE confusing, Bona Traffic NATURALE is a FINISH...

To get a sealant onto the floor you MUST have raw wood (which means all the work that has already been done = has to be done again). The Sealant is put on the raw wood as the first coat of product. These products allow 2 coats per day. A 3 coat system = two days to complete. And you should have 5 days to get 99% cure. Do NOT move into the house until the 5 day mark (after the final coat has been added). The full cure (100%) is roughly 7-10 days.

The Traffic Naturale finish is MATTE!!!!! Be VERY aware of what that means. You get MORE matte finish than what you have right now.

I prefer the TOUGHEST of the tough = Bona Traffic HD. That is THE finish that is today's Gold Standard. The Loba AT is as tough as Traffic HD.

So....let's get some words straight. Bona is the manufacturer and has MANY lines.

If your wood NEEDS a sealant then it must have a sealant. The NaturalSeal is a great sealant to keep the look of freshly sanded hardwoods. It can add a snick of yellow but not much. It does NOT block UV rays which means the wood can get very dark very fast.

The Bona NordicSeal = white frosting. Remember kindergarten when we added red to white...we create PINK! Right. Your floors are red (the name 'Red Hardwood' is the key here). If you use NordicSeal you WILL SEE pink...and lots of it. I would not recommend this with a red floor like yours. If you want it LIGHTER then you will need to bleach the floor (Brazilian Cherry has the same tones and the same photosensitivity as your wood = bleached twice works well).

The Bona Traffic HD comes in extra matte, satin (super low gloss satin...kinda like what you have now) and I believe it has a semi-gloss (which is like everyone else's 'satin').

You need two coats of Traffic HD IF you use the sealant. You really should have 3 coats of Traffic HD if you do NOT have a sealant. It sounds like your refinisher has more knowledge with the Bona system.

Ask yourself these questions:

1. Do you want pink?

2. Do you want lighter?

3. Do you want sheen of any type? How much do you LOVE the look (yes...you must LOVE the 'no shine' look you have)?

4. Do you find yourself LOVING the look of a freshly cleaned floor because it looks shiny? That means you need a glossier floor than matte.

@SJ McCarthy That is such great guidance. This thread is getting so confusing from the different people with problems, though, because the Australian with the Loba failure is different from the person who just posted about Bona who is starting with an unfinished floor.

If you are a poster trying to get solutions here in this thread, which is an old one, please understand that it is usually better to start your own new thread and especially so when multiple people are seeking counsel simultaneously in the same thread about separate problems. You may always link your new thread from here so we know to jump over into your dedicated discussion.

One more thing about that Loba packaging, I cannot see how that would be from any recent batch of Loba 2K Invisible AT. The most current products are being made with stickers on sturdy, one-gallon jugs. Loba products do have a shelf life and need to be fresh. I cannot shake my curiosity wondering if that label may have come from a fake knock-off. The Australian poster has still not commented on whether the metal cans of hardener were used as well.

Hi there, sorry for late reply. I have no idea if hardener was used. We paid a contractor to do the job he didn’t share or show us the product he used. He left the Loba bottle behind but nothing else & has stopped all communication with us since all issues arose. Unfortunately we trusted that he knew what he was doing & was experienced with the product he was using. Clearly he wasn’t & is blaming us & the product- says the floors were perfect when he finished & before we moved back home. Such a saga!!!

Of course the floors would have looked perfect before any traffic was put on them, hardener or no hardener. In fact, the word "perfect" isn't one that I'd expect someone to use with the Loba 2K products because their set-up time (similar description would be flash dry time) is so quick, and a few brush strokes or roller marks here and there would be totally normal from the immense speed that is required to get the coating laid down fast before it turns to a thick gel. From your description, I take it he worked alone? That is almost impossible to do with Loba's 2K products because of the need for an assistant to work the borders with a brush while someone else lays down the central coating with a roller or T-bar to get the surface done within the wet edge working window of no more than 10 minutes under most room conditions. If he omitted the hardener, he would have had a massively longer working time and could have easily worked alone. The hardener is what catalyzes the coating, provides chemical resistance, and makes the coating tough enough to last a couple of decades. The problems you are having are precisely what one would expect if the hardener had not been used. If he left a jug of base behind, he should have left some hardener too. Most often, the hardener is poured right into the jug and then has a life of around 3 hours. Can you shake the jug and still hear fluid sloshing? If so, it was never catalyzed. He could have poured small amounts into a separate mixing container, but if so, there should still be a partial can of hardener left over too. I think you might be able to get the finish tested to prove this theory and then legally pursue payment with damages and court fees covered if he does not take responsibilty. I am so sorry you are dealing with this.

Just wanted to share how incredibly happy I am with our Loba 2k Invisible Protect A.T. finish. We went with “hit and miss” white oak and used 3 coats of 2k invisible, sanding in between each layer as well as waiting a day between each coat. We wanted a finish that wouldn’t yellow or amber. The finish is absolutely beautiful and so strong. The first night we slept on the floors our dog got sick and my daughter didn’t notice the mess until noon the next day. It had all dried up and I was so concerned it would leave a mark. I simply wet a rag and it wiped right off and left absolutely no trace behind. I wanted to share a photo as well since when I was trying to decide on a finish I couldn’t find any photos of a rustic floor that had used invisible protect so wanted others who were interested to be able to see.

We sanded our oak floors two years ago to remove the oil-based stain and finish them with a Loba product I believe was Optifinish Satin. We're very happy with the look and work done. This March we bought a new "standalone" stove with five-inch legs that allow you to see the flooring underneath. The 30-inch by 26-inch section was never finished as the prior stove's paneling almost touched the floor. This past week I put down three coats of Optifinis Satin, but there's a clear demarcation between what was finished before and now. Does this indicate I am using a different Loba products now, or does the newly finished surface need to "age" to acquire the same look as the rest of the flooring?

If, the same finishing system is used. Be patient and give it time, the color will blend in as the finish oxidize.

We have loba invisible on our white oak floors and they truly look like they are unfinished. It’s a great product! Do you think it can be used on the natural trestle table from restoration hardware? It’s a beautiful table but we havent used it yet because people have told me that it doesnt have a protective finish and gets ruined easily. I love the raw wood look of it so wondering if this magic stuff would be good for it as well?

No, it would not be. Loba is designed for floors and is self-leveling, so it would run off the sides of the tabletop and have no "hang" qualities to stick to the vertical surfaces. You would end up with drips and runs if you could even complete the project at all. Loba 2K also catalyzes so quickly that if the tabletop is very large at all, without a good knowledge of technique, you could end up with part of the coating gelled before it had even been completely laid down across the surface, leaving you with severe markings, not to mention the runs and drips. There are plenty of other products to use. I, for one, wouldn't be investing in a table that wasn't already factory finished. My credentials in speaking to this issue are that I am using Loba 2K to finish cabinetry, and the finish is beautiful, but application to anything other than flooring is so difficult as to be nearly prohibitive, and I would never recommend it to anyone. I am using very specialized techniques that would take too long to explain here.

I know this is an old post. But in case this is helpful to others, these are my red oak finished with loba easy prime and 2k supra at. I love it in the daylight (western exposure) but at night when it's just my (3000k led) lights it's looking a little yellow. Part of me wishes I had experimented with some stain options to make it the color a little richer, but I liked the idea of the wood being it's authentic self.

Thanks for the photo. I have a red oak floor waiting to be finished. This looks like the way to go.

Getting ready to do my red oak flooring with the Loba invisible and it says no primer needed. I see a lot of you all did use the ws primer still, is it not recommended to skip the primer with the invisible AT?

You do not need a sealer with Loba Invisible. The sealer will make it more of challenge if, you need to make a finish repair. Two to three coats of Invisible is all you need.

Correct, sealer is not required with Loba Invisible, but you must use a very thick first coat and get it on at lightning speed to prevent tannin pull if you don't use a sealer on oak.

I cant seem to find the maroon pad anywhere near me. can i use the red Diablo pad between coats instead?

As far as I can find by looking at online references, the Diablo red pad is a medium grit and should be acceptable for intercoat abrasion for your project, even though one source I found said that Diablo had plans to introduce a different pad for intercoat abrasion at some point in the future. To be sure, you might inquire with a store representative if you are purchasing the pad locally. If that isn't possible, it sounds like you should be safe using it. Just as important as your intercoat abrasion grit level (which should be 180 or similar) is your re-coat window. Try to get successive coats of the Loba 2K Supra AT down within 24 hours of each other. The first coat of EasyPrime primer should be recoated at 60 minutes and preferably at no more than 120 minutes. Then, each successive coat of 2K Supra AT (no more than 3 coats of the 2K Supra AT) should be laid down within 24 hours apart if at all possible. In my experience, the 2K Supra AT can begin to harden so tough by the 24 hour mark that it is best to get in there and do the intercoat abrasion and re-coat before 24 hours has elapsed for best sanding success and adhesion.

For more information on technique, look up videos on proper application method of Loba EasyPrime and 2K Supra AT on YouTube posted by City Floor Supply featuring Loba's North American Business Manager Tom Zagula.

@Aglitter This will be just for the Loba Invisible. Thanks for the info!

@Mr. Baker I would highly recommend watching this video before starting, a tutorial on Loba 2K Invisible Protect AT by Loba's North American Business Manager Tom Zagula in conjunction with City Floor Supply: https://youtu.be/Kbu7kCzd1P0
Notice that without primer, you will need to apply the Invisible thick and fast, always maintaining a wet edge to avoid tannin pull, especially on white oak. We had another floor refinisher posting at Houzz a couple of years ago who tried the no-primer approach with Invisible and was so unhappy with the amount of tannin pull he got that he sanded it all off and re-started with primer. His advice was that the finish cures so quickly that you need at least two and maybe three people helping in order to do edge work plus center rolling to maintain the wet edge before it starts to cure and/or pull tannin.

Put in consideration of how many square feet you are working with, before you consider trying to apply multiple coats in a short period of time, especially for DIY-ers. Factor in the time it takes you to complete a coating and your drying time. Your work condition will have a factor, also. Be prepared to make adjustments as condtions changes through the day and from day to day.

i do have a person doing the edging and sounds like if i lay it on thick enough, we should be ok. I have about 680sqft to do.

should i open the windows as im laying the stain down? It’s supposed to rain here so i figure that may allowing a little more time before it dries as im putting the stain down.

@Aglitter i did watch that video numerous of times already and will probably watch it 5 more times before i actually do it.

@G & S Floor Service Have you laid down this product without a primer? what has been your experience?

@Mr. Baker You will need strong ventilation and also an N95 mask for each worker to manage the isocyanate fumes that are released from any of Loba's 2K products, including the Invisible Protect. Whether you get that ventilation by opening a window or not while it is raining is a difficult question. You definitely do not want any water on your floor from the rain before, during, or immediately after coating, and ideally, you should have already prepared your floor by having windows closed and any central heat or air on for a week or two to equalize the moisture content of the wood to what it will be when the floor is coated and in regular use. You will likely be able to smell the fumes as you work and hopefully adjust your ventilation to minimize them. Loba's coatings have a lot of elasticity built into them, but even so, it is best not to challenge the products by applying them to a floor that has swelled from outdoor humidity if that is not the final condition in which the floor will be used.
As to your chance of success with Invisible Protect without primer, you have increased that already by having a helper for edges. The previous Houzz poster who had a failed application was a professional floor refinisher himself but had no helper and was, as I recall, applying Invisible Protect to white oak, the worst wood for tannin pull. You have a helper, you have watched the tutorial, and if you are working with almost anything other than white oak, your chances are strong that Invisible Protect will work as designed without primer. If I were you, I would set myself a stopping point after 150 square feet or so and take a minute or two to closely examine the finish to see if tannin pull is occurring, and if so, if it is unacceptable. At that point, a decision may need to be made whether to continue or not. Another thing to consider is that EasyPrime prevents edge bonding, and if this is something that could be an issue in your climate, you won't have that added layer of protection since Invisible Protect alone doesn't offer that as a primary feature. For my projects with Loba products, I was working with cherry wood and was very interested in maintaining the natural color of the wood. I used Loba EasyPrime with 2K Supra AT and felt the color of the wood stayed very close to the original with these coatings. Knowing what type of wood you have would help us advise, for instance, some woods benefit from a Loba UV Protect additive to help prevent wood lightening over time (useful especially for walnut), and Loba also offers a whitener that can be added to neutralize and lift the final color effect.

@Aglitter I have red oak and i did also buy 2 coats worth of the whitner. My front windows have shield under a covered porch so im not worried about rain getting in. Also my back door has a covered deck that i figured i could open the door with.

Sorry for the newbie question but what is tanning pull?

@Aglitter Should I keep the heat/ac on while applying invisible?

Yes, I would definitely keep the HVAC running throughout your entire application and curing times to keep the red oak at a proper moisture level. A flooring professional would test the moisture content of the raw wood prior to finish application, but that may be beyond your desire to pursue as it requires a specialized tool. As long as you have had HVAC running for as long as possible after the flooring was installed and prior to coating (a few weeks, ideally), you will probably be fine. The fumes will be strongest while applying the wet coating. Make sure you wear an N95 mask to protect your lungs, and if the fumes seem overpowering while working, then open windows. I wouldn't open a door unless it is screened because you don't want dust or bugs getting trapped in the wet coating. For my projects, opening windows for fresh air while working was mandatory even with an N95 mask. The fumes from two-part, catalyzed coatings are very strong and contain cyanide-based chemicals that release isocyanates into the air that can damage your lungs. Even beyond the technical explanation, in practice the fumes smell too strong for me to tolerate without fresh air flowing through, even while masked with an N95. Because this coating is rolled and brushed on, you can get away with N95 masks, but any sprayed coating of this type would require supplied air respirators to protect the lungs. It is my best guess that you will want windows open to clear fumes for at least an hour or so while working with each wet layer, then you can close them back up to get your heated or air conditioned air back into the area. If you have children or other people in the house, it would be a smart move to have them leave the home while fumes are active.
Tannin is a brown-colored chemical compound that resides in wood and some other organic matter, and it can be pulled to the surface and stain wood when exposed to water or waterborne coatings. Because you have chosen to use Loba's waterborne Invisible (which is a good choice to avoid the ambering you would get from an oil-based product but not as good as oil when it comes to tannin pull), the risk is there with that waterborne coating of creating stains on the flooring. Using a heavy first coat and always keeping a wet edge will help prevent tannin pull but may not in all circumstances eliminate it. Using EasyPrime first would prevent it. Red oak is less likely to present with tannin pull stains under a waterborne coating that is white oak. The Houzz discussion forum is a good place to search for examples of tannin pull. Here is a recent post for starters: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6286234/tannin-pull-with-loba-invisible#n=6

@Aglitter Thank you for taking the time to respond with recommendations and explanations, it is greatly appreciated. Finfers are crossed!

@Mr. Baker

I am a one man band and have always applied Invisible without a primer. 1000 sf. takes and average of 1 hour for me to coat. I am not super fast.

My biggest peeve with these demos and even training classess. It does not replicate actual rooms. Demos are always on 4 x 8 panels and without baseboards and doors. It takes 5 minutes to coat and area like that. It's a bad representation of a real life situation. It's more of a challenge in actual rooms. A 12x13 room with one closet, takes time to cut in without making a mess. Working around doors takes more time. It gets worst when you have 40-50 ft. runs or 40-50 ft of cabinets to cut around.

My advices:

HVAC systems off a few hours before coating and keep off throughout coating process, can be turned on after floor can be walked on

Windows and doors closed, absolutely no air movement, can open after floor can be walked on

Roll the edge and then cut in

For 650 sf., have two gallons ready to go and plan on using all of it. Figure out where the half way point is for bottle change.

Ditch the 9" applicator, too slow

If, you have ever rolled Nordicseal, Natiuralseal, and poly shade successfully. Rolling Loba Invisible is a walk in the park.

@Mr. Baker You will get a feel for what you personally need to do in terms of ventilation after you start. My projects also involved about an hour working with the wet 2K catalyzed products; the fumes were very strong even with an N95 mask and open windows, and I was applying the coating in cold weather which meant the cure time was speeding up against the outside air compared to warmer inside air. It wouldn't have been practical for me to turn off the central heat given my parameters. Some painters who have worked regularly with products like Loba's 2K catalyzed coatings end up with lung irritation from the isocyanate fumes and end up discontinuing the use of 2K products as a result. Your mileage may vary. Do what you need to do to stay safe, would be my advice.

Hi everyone! I'm reading through the comments but getting a little confused so going to start a new comment...

We have a new build underway and trying to decide what to use on the stairs (they are raw white oak at the moment). I love the natural color and matte look of the raw wood, and want to preserve it as much as possible. What is the best way to achieve this? From what I've read it seems like the best options are:

· 2K Invisible Protect A.T. - - is this a standalone product/ all that would be needed?

· Bona Natural Seal - - sounds like this could yellow slightly so is there another product to pair with to prevent yellowing?

· Bona traffic HD raw - -is this a standalone product or does it need to be paired with the Natural Seal?

Thanks in advance!

Brittany

My only experience is with Loba products, so I won't comment much on the Bona except to say that if you have read reviews of any product yellowing over time, then I would say no, there is nothing you can add to prevent that. Be very cautious of any product containing oil, as it will yellow in time, and even some products claiming to be "waterborne" can dry down to an oil base, so read up on each product before committing.

In terms of the Loba 2K Invisible Protect AT (which stands for "Advanced Technology" versus Loba's non-AT version of the same product which is still sold, so make sure you get the AT as it is more durable), the company does claim that it can be used alone to help create a natural finish that is a little lighter than other products in the lineup, but I have followed the stories of people here at Houzz who have tried to use it alone in that manner, and it generally has not worked well. In one case, someone even had to sand down a first coat of 2K Invisible AT and start over using Loba's WS EasyPrime first. The WS EasyPrime will not only prevent side bonding of the wood which could be an issue for you, but it will also help that first layer of 2K Invisible AT to go on much more smoothly. Knowing what I know about how Loba products work, I would never personally recommend anyone using the waterborne products without the WS EastPrime underneath. Is it going to darken your wood? Yes, faintly, but the wood itself is going to darken as it ages over time, and that is your REAL problem more so than which brand of finish you use.

Oak, including white oak, will turn amber as it ages, and it will never be the same as it when it was first sanded and installed, regardless of coating type. If you want a lighter look permanently, you need to use a bleaching product or a whitewash product before you even start putting a top coat on to help maintain that lighter color.

Another issue with any Loba product is that it has powerful self-leveling compounds which can induce dripping on the vertical stairwell risers. You need to talk to whomever your coating application serviceperson is and make certain that they have experience working with stairways with these flooring products to prevent dripping and other issues.

The "2K" in the Invisible Protect AT means it is catalyzed using two parts combined right before applying. Loba claims a 10-minute working window for that catalyzed coating before it starts to set up, but I found it to be more like a 5-minute window once you lay it on, so if your provider is not familiar with working with 2K products, you could end up with a huge mess if they keep trying to go back and work that product. You have to touch it twice and move on--roll it once against the grain, then roll it with the grain and move on. For larger areas like floors, a 2K product ideally requires 2 people to keep the job moving before the edges start curing.

Some contractors will be accustomed to using flooring coatings with a squeegee, t-bar type of implement to move it around, and that's just not the best approach with Loba's water-based products. You preferably need to use their specified roller to get the proper coverage. On a stairwell you could probably do some brush work, but you need a really super soft brush like a Purdy Extra Soft to avoid leaving brush marks. You can message me through my profile, and I'd be happy to talk with you in person more about your situation.

I would also advise against going with the super-matte finishes. Everyone seems to want that these days, but I can tell you that a bit of sheen or even gloss is going to hold up better for you in terms of the longevity. Loba is a really strong flooring coating that should give you around 30 years of durability, but the semi-gloss or gloss may look better longer as the flooring is used, and that is true of virtually any coating brand.

Also with matte, most coating specialists recommend to wait and put that on as the last coat with the gloss underneath or else you could end up with a cloudy finish. These coatings are all made to be clear, and the way that they make them matte is they add a diffusing particle in there to make it more cloudy.

@Brittany Ferrieri One more thing I forgot to mention in addition to the post immediately previous to this one is that white oak in particular has a high tannin content, more so than red oak, and a water-based flooring product can cause tannin pull which is blotches of dark brown tannin activated by water leaking out underneath the coating. A primer will prevent that, which is another reason why using Loba's 2K Invisible Protect AT alone is risky on white oak especially. For more information on your situation, see my reply above.

@Aglitter thank you so much for the very detailed response! I've passed along your key points below to our project manager. I have no idea who will be performing the labor (we're working with a development company so they sub out a lot of the work) but I asked to confirm that a) they have worked with a product like this before b) I want to see what it looks like tested before moving forward.

Just curious - is it one coat of the primer and two coats of the invisible? Or should it be three coats of invisible?

Thanks!

If, your floor refinisher lacks experience, avoid Loba invisible or just avoid water base finishes all together. You will end up back here asking what went wrong.

@G & S Floor Service assuming that is the case, any suggestions for a product that is easier to use that would yield similar results? Would love to avoid re-dos :-)

Easiest product to put down is oil base poly. You can’t dumb it down more than that. But that will add yellowing.

You will have to find out what the skill level of your floor refinisher is. Then decide whether they are qualified to meet your expectations or not.

If, you have experience Loba invisible does not need a sealer/primer. if, this is the product you are most interested in. Find someone who knows how to apply it without ending up with tannin pull, lap marks and brush marks. Ask how they prevent these common finish flaws.

@Brittany Ferrieri You are asking about a foolproof finish in terms of the application process, and that would be an oil-based finish. Earlier you stated you didn't want a finish that yellows, which oil does (as well as produces offgassing VOCs for months or even years), so you are looking now at low-VOC waterbased or waterborne finishes (there is a difference) that come with more application challenges. Coatings with a large component of water evaporate more quickly than those based on oil, and for that reason a relatively larger amount of product is usually recommended to be laid down (measured in gallons per a certain number of square feet) to offset evaporation speed and allow for a smooth finish. When you then add a two-part (2K) catalyzed component to a finish that already has lots of water in it, the speed requirement increases even more. You are also dealing with vertical stair risers where drips and runs could be an issue under less experienced hands. Long story short, if you want this application to be trouble-free and non-yellowing, you need a team of at least two people working together who have preferably a minimum of several dozen hours of experience with the exact 2K waterbased coating you intend to use.

Some of the risks of using Loba's waterbased 2K Invisible Protect AT alone, without a sealer, were described above and include tannin pull and lap marks. The Loba WS EasyPrime will prevent that plus prevent side bonding in the future, which is a huge problem waiting to happen if you skip the sealer.

Take a wet rag and wipe down your wood. That's what the waterborne sealer plus the coating is going to do to the color. If you aren't happy with that minimal level of darkening, then ask your flooring subcontractor about laying down a whitewash stain or doing bleaching to the wood before the coating process begins. Especially because you have white oak, tannin pull could occur even under experienced hands without the sealer. It's the worst wood for that when paired with high water content coatings.

Although I have no experience with Bona, it does tend to be the cheaper and more widely used flooring coating brand in the USA when compared to Loba, and yes, Bona NaturalSeal is the sealer that would go underneath the Bona 2K HD Traffic Raw topcoats. However, Loba's AT products outshine Bona in the areas of durability and non-yellowing finishes, even in the non-oil category. The Bona finishes are waterBORNE, which can mean some yellowing agents remain borne by the carrier, while Loba makes waterBASED finishes that are the highest quality in terms of a non-yellowing outcome. Loba's AT finishes contain ceramic particles that make the coating highly durable with a life expectancy of 30 years.

If your floor will get light use with no heavy objects and no pets with claws walking on it, then a Loba sealer plus 2 topcoats of your desired finish coating will suffice. Add that 3rd topcoat for more durability. Avoid a 4th coat as that may begin to reduce the durability due to excessive thickness. I used a sealer plus 3 topcoats on all my 2K AT waterbased Loba projects, which turned out beautifully. I followed the label directions which are also demonstrated by Tom Zagula at City Floor Supply on YouTube of putting down the sealer followed by first topcoat within 1 to 2 hours of each other. The next morning (first light) or within 24 hours, do intermediate sanding with 220 grit for the second topcoat. Repeat for the third topcoat. Allow a minimum of 5 days and up to 2 weeks for full cure.