To be honest, you cant really go wrong with any setup. BUT if you decide to go with the Thermador/Sharp, I can fill the order at a GREAT discount. Let me know if you want me to provide a quote. I have these appliances coming in on Wednesday and wont last long at my showroom.

Before buying Wolf, make sure you read up on their blue enamel chipping problem (Google GardenWeb Wolf Oven Blue Enamel Chipping, also Chowhound has threads on this). Sales people will tell yo it is a non-issue. People on this forum and Chowhound will tell you that they have experienced the problem. If you go with Wolf, you may want to get a written guarantee about the blue enamel chipping and how they will deal with it should the non problem become a problem for you.

There was just someone on here a couple of weeks ago with it a DF range with that issue.

You make no mention of an exhaust hood for that 48" range. You will need a good hood, the right-sized ductwork, and makeup air. Make sure you understand all that goes into choosing the exhaust for that size range. It's fairly complicated, and will add several thousands to your budget.

The Wolf microwave drawer is the Sharp microwave drawer, rebadged, just so you know.

@friedajune - the Sharp microwave drawer we are looking at has fold down buttons. The wolf one has buttons on the wall. I am pretty set on the Sharp one so that my back doesn't hurt ever time I put things in the microwave. :)

If you havent already I would consider swapping out the Thermador range for their steam range. It's more expensive but having a combi steam oven is totally worth it. You also get the step up model DW if you do that. The range has a warning drawer in it, it's not a huge one but might be enough to skip the seperate one depending on your needs?

@drb477 - what are the main benefits of the steam one? I saw it in the showroom, but didn't know the difference. :)

There is a ton of information here on steam ovens, often referred to as a combi (or combination) steam oven or convection steam oven. I don't think I've ever seen anything other than raves from people who have one. Essentially its an oven that releases controlled amounts of steam into the oven. It can be used as a pure steamer which is good for certain things, but more importantly it can be used as an oven along with steam that allows for food to come out both crisp and moist at the same time. It is excellent at reheating leftovers as well, it takes longer than a MW (usually about 10 mins or so) but the results are much better. The oven can also be used as a regular convection oven without any steam when needed.

Thermador doesn't make the absolute best steam oven on the market (its a little smaller and has a few less settings than some others like Miele), but its still very good and its the only one that comes in a range. It provides much more functionality than the regular small oven you'll find in a normal 48" range.

My CSO is hands down the best thing in my kitchen. I love it for everything from reheating leftovers, to baking bread to steaming fish and veggies and on and on.

I've been on this forum for some time, on and off depending on what's happening in my life. I've learned a lot from variouys people and appreciate their time and effort spent on answering often times repeat questions.

But really, has something changed? I now see Four Brothers Appliances "selling" appliances. It just feels different than before. Can I advertise my pottery business? I make hand made plates, platters, wall hangings etc and I can ship anywhere in the country. Just curious that's all. Not saying it's wrong. Always am for someone promoting themselves and their business but just want to know the new rules if there are new rules. TIA

Inga

"But really, has something changed? "

Houzz bought it and there are "PRO"s now participating in the forums with that designation. Yes I think you can sign up if you own a business. There have been appliance dealers on here selling but I guess it makes it easier now to see who has something to gain. I have seen some ask for their business from a person seeking advice here.

wekick,

Thanks for the enlightenment. I'm not interested in selling my wares on this venue it was just a hypothetical question.

The commercialization I think (from my perspective) takes a bit away. Just my opinion. I have found some people who give excellent service in their business get lots of kudos like Travis Larson (hope I got the name right) which is in my opinion a huge advertisment without the crass commercialization. Most of us I think appreciate the time and effort people put in to answer questions. I am looking at a major kitchen and bath remodel and just down loaded all (probably not all but much) of Kasekis tirade on ventilation. I did that so I don't have to ask him again., He's a huge source of information and all free. Free is a very good price and often better than what you pay for. !!!

Just my opinion and folks I can make you a set of handmade plates that will knock the socks of your feet and much more and for a very good price.

Inga

I apologize if I am doing something wrong, Ive always lurked on this forum as a guest and have learned a lot from comments/advice given on here. Its great how everyone is here to help each other make informed, well educated decisions. My first goal on this forum is to learn from others as well as to give advice on topics that I am familiar with. At the same time, if I have something that I can offer, and HELP the OP or anyone else, why not use this platform as a way to advertise a product that someone is looking for at a discounted price? I guess I will have to stick to Ebay/Amazon and my store/warehouse locations to make sales (no big deal).

Four Brothers, you aren't doing anything wrong. It is just a change in the nature of the forum. We have had dealers selling here before but it is labeled and encouraged a little more now.

Thermador used to be a great brand, but over the past decade it has really slipped in our experience. After BSH acquired them, things went down-hill. Service and parts availability suffered greatly, and yet they were investing in every magazine advertising their promotions. Large retailers will usually direct you to Thermador over Wolf for one reason they don't like you to know about: The margin and sales spiffs on Thermador products is better than SZ/Wolf.

Much better.

Between those two choices, I would choose Wolf myself.

Anthony

Appliance Buyer's Guide

If you live near a Subzero/Wolf design center, see if you can sign up for one of their free demos. You'll learn a lot about their products as a chef uses them.

Hey Kristin... The closest design center for wolf/SZ is about 3 hours from me. Is it worth the drive to see a demo?

Probably not...unless you really like to drive and you really like free dinners.

Four Brothers Appliances - you've clearly labeled yourself in your username, so I don't see what the problem is. You're very upfront and direct. People can do with the information what they wish. Knowing that you have a product to sell I would expect readers (and potential buyers) to do thorough research on your recommendations and your pricing. Readers also need to be aware of issues like delivery, installation, shipping damage, service after the sale, warranty information, etc. and figure those factors into their decision. I appreciate the time investment you make in coming on here.

How many commercials do you see on television where opposing viewpoints and opinions about the product being advertised are given equal time? Yet that's exactly what can happen on a forum. If you have a crappy product I'm 100% sure you'll get an earful from people who've had experience with that product.

I don't see people complaining about confirmation bias on these forums.

I have a much bigger problem when I'm being hustled and don't know it. That's not what you're doing.

To Anthony of Appliance Buyer’s Guide:

Which of the following 2 options would you choose and why:

Option 1: Subzero fridge/freezer, Wolf 36 inch induction cooktop, Wolf steam oven stacked above Wolf M series convection oven, and Miele Dimension dishwashers

OR

Option 2: Subzero fridge/freezer or Miele fridge/freezer, Miele 36 inch induction cooktop, Miele M-touch steam oven stacked above Miele Sensortronic convection oven, and Miele Dimension dishwashers

Both options would also have a Sharp microwave drawer and Wolf wall hood (standard wall hood - 36 inches wide, likely low profile of 10 or 11 inches high).

Which option do you like better and why? Any swaps/changes to make either option better? (For example, could do Wolf 36 induction range instead of cooktop but seems nicer to have wall ovens if have space which we do.)

This is for a new construction house. Want induction and Miele dishwashers. Real issue is Subzero, Wolf, and/or Miele for the rest.

Thank you!!

@m111675 Well to be honest both of those options are great. This would come down to personal preferences on silly things like control panels, and such, as both of those options are well-built, solid cooking machines by great manufacturers. I prefer the Wolf induction touch controls over the Miele. They use a range of heat levels instead of 0-9 numerals. The touch controls are more responsive as well in my experience. I also prefer the Wolf M series oven over the Miele Sensortronic. So I would have to go with Option 1.

The good news is there is no wrong answer on that one. Both packages will do you right.

Anthony

Appliance Buyer's Guide

Thank you so much, Anthony. Sorry but a few more follow-up questions for you.

1. What do you think about the Wolf convection steam oven? For us, it might work best to stack a steam oven over the full-size convection oven. So if we go with the Wolf M series oven below, seems like we would need the Wolf steam oven, rather than Miele steam oven, above. Worth it to switch to Miele sensortronic below to get Miele combi-steam above, or do you think the Wolf steam oven is sufficient, even though it lacks a broiler and ability to plumb. You're probably aware that Wolf has a new model convection steam out now, but still lacks those features and just modest improvements it seems. Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how the Wolf convection steam compares to Miele combi-steam in terms of ease of use, function, and cleaning it. We are not big chefs so ease of use is important. And we probably won't be doing complicated things with it. I kind of like the professional look of the Wolf with professional handles, but the Miele is neat looking too.

2. As an alternative, could do the Wolf 36 inch induction range, and then stack the Miele combi-steam over the Miele speed oven, and give up the microwave drawer. But the Wolf 36 inch induction range is so much more expensive than the 30 inch induction range, and it appears to just be an E-series oven, and we have the space for separate stacked appliances. Also for re-sale, not sure if it looks great to have stacked 24 inch ovens, rather than at least one 30 inch oven. So I'm probably thinking this is not the best option for us, but would love to hear your thoughts.

3. As for the refrigerator, we're thinking of the Subzero built-in 48 inch. I thought I wanted the external dispenser, but folks tend to say not to get it. What do you think? How easy is it to use without getting ice/water on the floor or on the side of the fridge? Unfortunately, haven't been able to test in a showroom. Maybe just get the little extra space inside (and cheaper) and not do any dispenser (internal or external). Am interested in your thoughts.

4. On a little different topic, thoughts on Perlick beverage center/refrigerator, versus Subzero beverage center?

Thanks so much!!!!

@m111675

#1. Wolf Steam is definitely sufficient. Check my instagram feed and stories from yesterdays demo if you don't believe me: https://www.instagram.com/appliancebuyersguide/

#2. I wouldn't split the package up. Either stay in all Wolf or All Miele, this way you keep their promotions. There are trade offs to everything, but losing the promotion is the biggest trade off of all.

#3. SZ's external dispenser is probably the best of them all. This isn't going to eliminate clumsy guests through from spilling water or ice. I say if you're used to it, why change your lifestyle? Get the external.

#4. I would go with the SZ. It's actually not too expensive comparatively, and very good warranty. The Perlick product is excellent, but to get the commercial grade stuff you have to go to Signature series, which is even more money than SZ. Also, if you are paneling this beverage center than I would definitely do the SZ. Perlicks are a PITA for cabinet builders to make doors for as they require odd notches.

Anthony

Appliance Buyer's Guide

Thank you so much, Anthony. You are providing excellent advice! I've been reading about the Wolf ovens' blue porcelain chipping issue. Do you think it's still a problem on the Wolf M Professional convection oven? I understand it may be easier to fix, but does the problem still occur? I see there is a fairly recent lawsuit on this (from summer 2017). Reason to switch to all Miele cooking (Miele 36 inch induction, Miele M-touch combi-steam, and Miele sensortronic oven) instead?

Also, since we're building a new house, worth it to switch to all Miele for cooking appliances to get plumbed combi-steam? But still would get Subzero refrigerator and freezer rather than Miele most likely because Miele is so much more expensive and we can get good builder pricing on Subzero fridge/freezer.

With either option, we definitely want Miele dishwashers. Planning on Miele Dimension in clean touch steel finish. Would you do controls on top or on the front? On top has a cleaner look, but with controls on front, can see clearly when finished and time remaining.

Thank you!!!

I'll add to Anthony's advice...NEVER run self clean right before Thanksgiving. The self clean cycle on my Thermador burned out one of the elements and that made cooking the turkey that year a bit more involved.

I liked my Thermador 48" "professional" duel fuel range though I wasn't overly fond of Thermador service. There are a LOT of electronics in that store (from the gas valves for the burners on down). I had several failures and not too responsive service from the company (even under warranty.

Something that I learned to keep the electronic panel from going kaput is to avoid keeping the oven door slightly open while it's on or hot. I've seen friends do this when trying to cool down an oven after use, and also when checking on food when it's almost done, etc. The heat that escapes can, over time, damage the electronic control panel that sits right above the opening of the oven door.

@The Kitchenworks wrote:

I don't know what people are doing in their ovens, but my wife is a trained chef, we use our oven almost every night, never once felt the need to run the self-cleaning mode, 6 years on.

I think it depends a lot on your expectations, and somewhat on your experience.

Drips and spills can be reduced, if you have the experience. But they can't be 100% avoided. Accidents do happen. I know that, and presumably so does your wife. In my case, I always have some sort of drip pan in the oven. It helps with easy clean up and it works as a heat spreader, which is another great feature. More even heat distribution is usually desirable.

Also, I don't have the expectation that my oven has to ever look the same way it did when it came off the assembly line. It's a working tool. It doesn't bother me if you can tell.

I don't want caked on spills, as they can be a fire hazard. But minor splatter on the walls is entirely fine. After having my oven for seven years, I finally decided to give it more intense cleaning with chemical oven cleaner. But even then, I really only bothered about cleaning the door.

I can believe that others are more concerned about keeping their oven pristine, but shy away from manual scrubbing. In that situation, a self-cleaning oven would sound appealing; and these home-chefs might not realize just how invasive the procedure is.

I can't speak to the stainless on SZ, but I can tell you that the Miele stainless is as good as advertised at staying clean.

@m111675

Miele and Sub-Zero keep close tabs on each other, their promos will be pretty close once you add everything up. I would imagine the Miele is likely to be slightly more money in most cases unless you're buying the "Chef" series ovens.

Miele's plumbed Combi-Steam requires the sink/drain be nearby, back of cabinet requires special notch in back, top to bottom out for airflow. Specs leave a bit to be desired, but its entirely doable.

Both Wolf and Miele will get fingerprints about equally. Only difference is Miele's coating makes cleaning up the appliances MUCH easier, as you don't need any SS cleaner. You can literally wipe it with a wet rag and then buff it clean with a dry rag.

Here's a video on the Clean Touch stainless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT1eoTCdWZ4

Anthony

Appliance Buyer's Guide

From my recall reading Consumer Reports (and I could be wrong) but fancy brands like Thermidor and Subzero/Wolf had below average reliability and a lot more problems.

Consumer Reports has very ... unique ... ways of evaluating products. And that's probably the most favorable way to put it. I wouldn't exactly put a lot of stock into what they have to say. They certainly are entertaining though.

With respect to Consumer Reports-

M, you are very diplomatic :-)

I will be more blunt. Consumer Reports do not concern themselves with the needs and wants of consumers in the higher end of the market.

m111675 "Do you think it's still a problem on the Wolf M Professional convection oven? I understand it may be easier to fix, but does the problem still occur? "

This is a longtime poster from last year. There are others.

From this thread.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/hands-on-with-the-new-wolf-m-ovens-good-bad-and-wish-they-woulda-dsvw-vd~2892463

There are several in depth threads on this oven. They might help you to make a comparison of Wolf and Miele, very different ovens. I would also read the use and care manuals online.

Kitchenworks "As for the chipping issue I've not come across any of my customers with this issue. But if I remember correctly on what I read on the lawsuit post the guy was running the self-cleaning feature multiple times and then had an issue."

If you research the issue on this forum there have been those who have not run self clean at all.

Even if the guy in the lawsuit ran it every day for a week, you should be able to. Why would a manufacturer, especially one at Wolf's price point, make an oven with a feature that would cause the oven to self destruct? They advertise it, you pay for it and they tell how to use it in the use and care manual only to have their reps turn around and say don't run it???

"i'm not sure ANY interior coating is going to be able to stand up to multiple hits of 700F+"

Many do. It is possible. I've had many ovens over the years that worked great and were never damaged by self clean. I never thought twice about it. We've stayed at various condos at the beach for the past 30 years that run the self clean every week and the ovens have held up for many years.

"stay in all Wolf or All Miele, this way you keep their promotions. There are trade offs to everything, but losing the promotion is the biggest trade off of all."

Not for everybody. One of the common sentiments and advice on this forum has been that no one manufacturer makes the best of everything and many cooks pick each appliance based on the utility to that person. Bonuses are secondary for them. Features get dissected and many opinions given. The biggest trade off might be function for them.

In regards to the screenshot you put to kalapointers post, she states she's been dealing with repairs for 7 years, but the M Series ovens were only released 4 years years ago. So not sure whats up there.

Should an oven be able to handle self-cleaning mode, yes. But I can tell you from my experience many people have problems with their units after they've run self-cleaning mode (and this is across the board for modern brands), likely due to all the new microchips and electronics we use in modern ovens these days. Coincidentally enough, I've never had a customer that experienced this chipping issue on Wolf ovens and I do sell quite a few. So I've not seen how it might arise yet the the real world. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened to these customers.

Anthony

Appliance Buyer's Guide

Maybe the other brands dont cater to the high end but the high end should be just as reliable as low and middle end. There are tons and tons of complaints about high end appliances breaking all over the internet. Its no different than buying a high end car and finding out that its not as good as a Honda.

Wekick - my appliances don't all match (as far as brands go) because I have a favorite dishwasher brand, a favorite range brand, and a favorite refrigerator brand. My vent hood is even different from my range, which has a downdraft built in that I don't use. Once I let go and acknowledged my likes things were much easier for me.

Kitchenworks - absolutely right. I'm convinced the circuit boards cannot take the sustained heat during a cycle of self cleaning. Is it a flaw? Yes, for me it absolutely is. I purchased a brand that I loved, that I loved the look of, that does what i need it to do without going overboard, but that people said in reviews would have problems with the circuit boards needing to be replaced. I do not use the self cleaning feature ever because I don't need to. But I'm also incredibly proud of my purchase and clean it before it's dirty.

I also never open the door and leave it ajar for any amount of time when the oven is hot. That is just as bad as the self cleaning feature, and buyers need to be told bout that as well.

"i'm not sure ANY interior coating is going to be able to stand up to multiple hits of 700F+"

I have lived with a cheap GE range in a rental (for many years) where I ran the self clean all the time and nothing ever chipped and I have had a Gagenau with blue porcelain interior without any chipping problems and I ran the self clean.

I find it completely incomprehensible that certain manufacturers have wished to ape a feature- blue porcelain interior- and have done that without ensuring the surface works properly. Seriously, who cares what color the interior of an oven is? Sure it's nice to have something different, but it has to work in order for it to be a feature and not a problem.

"In regards to the screenshot you put to kalapointers post, she states she's been dealing with repairs for 7 years, but the M Series ovens were only released 4 years years ago. So not sure whats up "

Kalapointer's post answers M111675's question, "Do you think it's still a problem on the Wolf M Professional convection oven? I understand it may be easier to fix, but does the problem still occur? "

In Kalapointer's oven saga, it was at some point replaced with an M which they report here has chipped.

"Well, I have waited since February 8th to have my M Pro double oven repaired. The enamel on the bottom of the oven was chipping and crazing."

" Should an oven be able to handle self-cleaning mode, yes. But I can tell you from my experience many people have problems with their units after they've run self-cleaning mode (and this is across the board for modern brands), likely due to all the new microchips and electronics we use in modern ovens these days."

Whether it is electronics or the blue enamel, if it doesn't work, don't promote it as a benefit and take it off until you get something that does work.

"Coincidentally enough, I've never had a customer that experienced this chipping issue on Wolf ovens and I do sell quite a few. So I've not seen how it might arise yet the the real world. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened to these customers."

No one knows how many have this problem except Wolf. From this forum, we know it has been ongoing for 10 years and some posters have had as many as 3 go bad not to mention one of the lawsuits mentioned a multiplicity of failures for one family. They were also talked into spending more money with Wolf to upgrade with the idea it would not occur and it still chipped. That has happened on this forum too. I feel if Wolf was sincere and it was truly a rare occurrence, they would upgrade the appliance at no additional cost for the inconvenience it causes and in at least one case someone cut their hand on the shards. It is also not just a cosmetic issue as they try to say.

Rita" Seriously, who cares what color the interior of an oven is? "

This^^^^^^^

My 2 cents..... I love my SZs. I had a GE Monogram fridge before. It had a lot of gimmicks that didn’t work (rapid thaw, rapid chill). I wanted the Wolf double ovens, I ended up with Bertazzoni double ovens and I couldn’t be happier. Plus, I got them for 2k, which if they only last 5 years, I can afford to replace them and still come out ahead. I went with the Thermador steam oven. I’m extremely thrilled with it. The Miele and Gaggenau had a broiler in their steam ovens, but I already have more powerful broilers in my double oven, so I didn’t feel like spending thousands extra for that feature. I didn’t like the water tank for the Bertazzoni CSO, so I really recommend getting your hands on the appliances and make sure you find them comfortable to use. My husband thought the Miele double ovens felt flimsy compared to the Wolf and shot that option down for me. For me, it was about actually using the appliances and making sure they had the features I used.

Thanks everyone for your great advice and insight! Just really confused. We are building a new house and the question for us is whether Wolf or Miele for induction, wall oven, and combi-steam (I think we are settled on Subzero fridge/freezer and Miele dishwashers). I like the professional look of Wolf and would match the Subzero professional look, but just seems possible issues with Wolf M series oven, Wolf combi-steam not as robust as Miele’s, and Miele’s induction has more features. We are not big cooks so aesthetics and ease of use are important to us. So tough! Plus we would like to take advantage of package pricing. Any more thoughts/suggestions? You all have given great advice!! Thanks!!

This is what Wolf has to say on their website about the chipping issue.

http://www.subzero-wolf.com/assistance/answers/touch-up-blue-porcelain

I have the Thermador combi steam and I really love it. The difference with the Miele is going to be plumbed and the broiler function. I didn’t need the broiler function because I had a double oven with both ovens with a more powerful broiler. You still have to wipe the steam oven down, even if you have a drain and a cleaning cycle, so it didn’t matter to me at that point. I paid 2k for the Thermador and the Miele was almost 5k. The Wolf steam is going to be similar to the Thermador in cleaning and use. You’re going to love the steam oven no matter which model you choose.

Oh and I agree, appliance shopping left my head spinning. What I found helpful was sticking to the features that I really needed and use. That helped narrow the selection down.