in plan A are you prohibited from placing sink/dishwasher on island, and range and fridge to go on wall run? Re: plan B and 8 foot wall....I would consider it with the items on 8 foot wall at 12 in depth. Is it pantry cabinet and some counter? My mom had a run somewhat similar: 12 in deep cabinets with doors both above and belowcounter..it worked well as a pantry because "open door, see and grab at that shallow depth" No need for rollouts or an assembly on glides because of depth...nothing has to be maneuvered. At 8 ft width..you'll get a lot of use, esp. with counter...it's a secondary zone for coffee pot/mini drop zone as well. With that tweak to 8 ft wall, helping clearance for stools, I would like plan B. I' m assuming you can't do sink on island for A...not sure why.

We could do the sink and dishwasher on the island. We were trying to avoid the dishes and "clutter" on the island, like the sink under a window, and everything is currently plumbed for the sink under the window, but it's definitely an option to do the sink and dishwasher on island and fridge and range on wall run. In that case I guess the range would go under the window? Yes, what you described is basically our plan for the pantry run. Thanks for the input on that.

Those are two good options. Think about how your household members will move through the space in each of these layouts.

Would the wall in option B annoy people who want to cut through the kitchen as fast as possible or create a logjam in that corner? Or maybe everyone is so used to having all the other walls before that this is a piece of cake! How often do people go into the office?

The wall can help create a cocoon of calm in that part of the kitchen so that the other side is where most foot traffic goes. In fact, keep all of that in mind when placing appliances. If you don’t use the oven very often, then having it on the wall with the most foot traffic would be okay. (In option A, can you not place it in the island, even if it’s separate from the stovetop?)

A potential benefit I see in option A is more furniture layout options without sacrificing much movement through the room. But how likely will you do that?

How often do you use the dining table versus informal eat-in space? Do you think having both close together will be odd?
I really don’t know from personal experience because my dining table has to be far from my kitchen and we mostly eat in the smaller breakfast nook at our counter-height table, which would be like eating at a kitchen island. I really like it. My husband and I are physically closer together, it feels more intimate, and we talk more. :)

Another possible layout is to create an interior wall that goes from floor to ceiling between the kitchen and family room, with openings on each side (see red area on photo). This will create some separation between the two spaces, and you can build storage into/onto the kitchen side wall and place furniture against the family room side wall (if you want).
I included a couple of photos that kind of show this concept realized. You could even put appliances in the wall, but you’d have to run electrical in it.

Contemporary Kitchen Refresh · More Info

Beverly Place - Kitchen Storage Wall · More Info

I'm an option B person. Wall space! - plus being totally open, especially towards a living room, is overrated. You could showcase some nice art on the living room side of that wall.

Thanks for the thoughts...nice to get outside opinions from people that know more than us! Janice, where would you recommend the slide in oven go? The appliances are not bought yet, but once we make the final decision we'll buy them this week (hopefully). We did these drawings, but our cabinet maker is drawing the space up for "real". We're planning on drawers pretty much everywhere, mostly deep. Option B is drawn with an 6'x3' island. Always helpful to see pics!

cpartist, those are all really good points. Any thought on how to change it given the issues you mentioned in these designs? Maybe the sink and DW in island and range under or near window would solve these issues in A?

I'm not crazy about either plan for all the reasons cpartist stated. It also doesn't look like you're allowing enough of an aisle between island and table for back to back seating (National Kitchen and Bath Association, NKBA, recommends 60" for this purpose), which would be a nuisance since this is the path to your backyard.

How about this idea?

Fridge is near the table but far enough away so as not to crowd seating. I pulled the cabinets on the window wall out to create 30" deep counters. This will help mask the bulk of a standard depth fridge. Eyeballing it, I think you'll need to shift sink, DW and window to the left to allow enough room for the fridge to the right.

I moved the range to the peninsula ala shanghaimom's gorgeous kitchen:

She has really tall ceilings so she has room for cabinets above the cut-outs but you don't have to do that. You can just go with solid wall behind the range (I'd go 3" wider on each side, ditto for range hood width) and leave the remaining area open to the family room. You can either have the half wall counter height or go a little higher to allow for outlets above the counter.

I created a wall of shallow pantry cabinets. It doesn't look like you have planned for any uppers in the main area of the kitchen so you could probably use a whole wall of floor to ceiling storage.

I couldn't figure out room dimensions so I didn't finish my idea up with cab sizes or island length. One option I didn't draw up is a longer island with seating only on the long side. This would allow you to extend the island towards the table 16" (NKBA recommends 44" minimum for a seating aisle).

I like what lisa_a did and would have definitely suggested something similar.

This is really good, thank you! I wish there was a way to not have to move that existing exterior window, but this layout seems pretty perfect so we may just need to do it.

Why would you have to move the exterior window with Lisa's plan?

Leaving the window where it is, and given your suggestions cpartist and Lisa, here are what the two options would look like I believe. Even removing the broom closet it looks like there isn't enough room between the fridge and table and between the fridge and sink in the revised option B. It might take moving the window and sink down a couple feet if the fridge goes by the eating area.

Revised Option A

Revised Option B

You do option B but put the broom closet on the end of the pantry closets. You don't need a broom closet on the end of the fridge because you have all that pantry storage area.

Then pull the dining table down more towards the bottom wall or whatever that is. You have the space on the bottom. You only need 44" to walk behind a chair.

Also what about getting a counter depth fridge?

That works great on the broom closet.

I'm not certain on counter depth fridge...we cook from scratch every day, have 3 little boys, don't like idea of paying more for smaller fridge since we fill our large fridge now...but this is one situation where it probably makes sense to go with the counter deep since we need that walkway to go out to our back yard.

So here's the final (????) layout thinking. We would do floating shelves or upper cabinets to left of sink. My only concerns at this point are not having much counter space for a landing area next to fridge and right of sink, and where to put microwave...next to fridge seems logical but that isn't an option with this layout.

I think you may find that you'll use your island as a landing for your fridge. That's what we do.

Microwave drawer in island or otherwise a small one in your pantry. My old kitchen had that and it was just fine.

I have 4 boys and was really afraid that a counter depth fridge wouldn't have enough space. But I have found that it just keeps me more organized. Less stuff gets lost in the back and I clean it out more often. (But I do have an extra fridge in the garage for drinks and items I buy in bulk).

Almost final. =)

I prefer the L with island. It gives you more counter and it routes traffic along the seating side of the island, not through the cook zone.

However, you aren't showing a counter depth fridge accurately. The doors sit proud of the counter a few inches so the aisle between fridge and table will be less than 36", which is already too narrow for this aisle.

If you're hesitant to move the window (understandable if your home is brick-faced or a similar material), you can gain much needed aisle width by adding a banquette bench along the far wall and moving the table to the right. If the aisle between table and wall was 36", you'll gain 12"-14" of space.

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The above bench has a flat back, which isn't quite as comfortable as a sloped back but otherwise, this is a good approximation of what I'm suggesting.

Or you could purchase a piece of furniture to serve as a bench:

An Artisan Kitchen at a Briarcliff Hilltop · More Info

Lake Road Dinette · More Info

Adding a banquette bench and moving the table towards the wall will also allow you to create a longer island.

Do you really need that wide of a broom closet? Or are you making it that wide to give that wall a symmetrical look? If the latter, you can still achieve that without giving so much space to a broom closet by choosing full overlay cabinets. Specify the doors to open facing each other and it will look as if the 2 cabinets are one cabinet. Does that make sense?

Unless you are very disciplined and keep your kitchen items to a minimum, I think you would be glad to have additional pantry storage.

Have you done your kitchen tally to make sure you're providing enough storage for your kitchen items? If not, do this before finalizing your plan. I did this and determined that I could definitely eliminate uppers on my cook top wall and still have plenty of storage.

My plan (the blue tape marks drawer widths):

The result:

If, after you do your storage plan, you find that your plan isn't providing enough cabinet space for your needs, you can solve this by adding shallow (12"-15" d) cabinets at each end of the banquette bench. Like this:

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Traditional Kitchen · More Info

Extend the bench to give you enough room to slide in and out and be sure the bench is deeper than the cabinets on each end.

"Why would you have to move the exterior window with Lisa's plan?"

cpartist, in order to provide a wide enough aisle between table and fridge, the fridge has to shift to the left, partially covering the existing window.

Lisa, when I wrote that, I wasn't looking carefully at the plan. :)

I can believe that. You're normally so observant and sharp. =)

Thanks so much, what a huge help! Yes, I was just trying to be symetrical so your plan for the broom closet work perfectly. I believe I've captured all the input and suggestions below. We'll go through and do the kitchen tally to make sure we're ok on space.

You're welcome!

One more idea for you to mull over. (I meant to post this sooner but got sidetracked.)

If you'd consider replacing the existing window with a wider window, you could move the DW to the right of the sink, between sink and fridge. That would give you more elbow/counter room between sink and fridge and get the DW out of the prep zone between sink and range.

This would entail some demo to remove existing siding for the new window, installing a wider header in place of the existing one, and purchasing a new window. We did this when we added 2 windows to a windowless wall in our DR in '03. The cost was surprisingly reasonable and took a matter of hours to do.

If that's within your project's budget, then you could do this (estimated a window half again as wide as the existing window):

Dishes would go in the drawers in the island across from the DW. Someone could set the table while you're cooking without either of you getting in each other's way. You can store glasses in drawers or on the open shelving.

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Good luck! Please remember to come back and post reveal photos when your remodel is completed!

I can believe that. You're normally so observant and sharp. =)

Can I claim the house is getting to me?

If you plan to have seating at the island and want it counter height, then 36" in width for the island is too narrow. You'll need a minimum of 42". If you're doing bar height seating then yes you can get away with not 36" but 37".

Since you have 4'3" I don't think it would be a hardship to take 6" from between the island and the pantry so that the aisle becomes. 3'9". As it's not a working area, it should be fine.

Or another thought is that a pantry really doesn't need to be deeper than 18" to be efficient.

You've got building fatigue for sure.

And good catch on the island not being deep enough for a seating overhang.

dlander, a 36" deep island leaves you with only 10 1/2" for the seating overhang (cabs are 24" deep, counter overhang is 1 1/2", 36" - 25.5" = 10 1/2"). That's nearly 5" less than NKBA's recommended minimum of 15" for seating at 36" high counters. If you or your family are tall or you have tall friends who frequently visit, 18" counter overhang will be more comfortable.

Just be sure to talk to your contractor and counter fabricator well in advance to make sure the overhang is properly supported. There are plenty of threads on the topic here, often with advice from fabricator extraordinaire Joseph Corlett.

I echo cpartist's suggestion to reduce the depth of the center section of pantry cabs. 12"-15" is a good depth for shelves for pantry goods. Anything deeper and you'll want to add drawers or ROTs (roll out trays) to the cabinets so you can more easily access items in the cabinets.

Thank you both! This looks SO good!

We'll definitely make the island deeper, and really like making the window larger to make room for the DW and counter space between sink and fridge (bonus of more natural light in kitchen!). We bumped out the middle section of the pantry just for asesthetics, but we can either set the two sides in a few inches so the middle is 15" and two side cabinets are 12", or just run them all straight across at 15".

Now I think I can say this is final...maybe;) We'll post pics when we finish!

"We'll post pics when we finish!"

Yay, so happy to hear that! I look forward to seeing your new kitchen!

Good luck with your remodel!

Psst, keep the booze handy. It's a crazy, exhausting, messy process and there will be days when you think, "why did we think remodeling was a good idea?!?!" A glass of wine or your adult beverage of choice helps smooth out the jangly edges. I speak from experience, lol.

That looks great diander. I might consider making the floating shelves run to the left side wall. Personally, I'd make them glass cabinets that die into the left hand wall. Otherwise I think it's going to be an excellent kitchen to work in.

Before you figure out drawer sizes, figure out what you have and where you want to store it.

file:///C:/Users/janice/Downloads/3-25-16%20REMODELED%20KITCHEN%20PLAN.pdf

Overhang is 14" plenty enough leg room for average size people. Trying to dig up the floor plan

janice, thanks for the pics, beautiful kitchen. I love your sink! Thanks for the input on the overhang.

dlander, the kitchen you came up with finally follows the ice, water, stone, fire that is so helpful when working in a functional kitchen. I know that once you've completed your kitchen, you're going to really enjoy the functionality of it.

I particularly like how the fridge is out of the work zone, yet next to the sink and near the dining table, so no one has to walk into the work zone to get something out of the fridge.

I also like how in your kitchen design, the cooktop is well protected from anyone walking by it.

It's going to be a beauty.

Mock it up, dlander, and see what you think. You have generous aisles so it seems a shame to go with a shallower than recommended seating overhang, IMO.

Big sheets of cardboard work great for mocking things up. Blue tape, too. I did that a lot when I was planning my kitchen.

The blue tape marks the future hood and cook top placement and the cardboard at the left end is placeholder for future counter. I left it there for a couple weeks. I wanted to be sure that it wouldn't be a problem if we stole these few inches to gain a wider stretch of counter between cook top and door I didn't bump my hip once - yay! - so I extended the counter with complete peace of mind.

Great tips, we learned so much from everyone, and are excited to get started!

The only issue that we are unsure on, is what to do with the microwave and toaster oven in this layout. We use both a lot. We could make the L wall floor to ceiling instead of a half wall and they can go there, but I really want to make sure we don't "cut off" the family room, office, and laundry room to where those rooms don't feel like part of the living area of the house. Any recommendations for what to do with those appliances? This is the finished layout for reference (feels good to say finished!)

"The only issue that we are unsure on, is what to do with the microwave and toaster oven in this layout. We use both a lot."

Would your budget stretch to a MW drawer? If so, put it in the island at the end closest to the range. That leaves the drawers across from the DW and fridge free for dishes, silverware and possibly glassware.

Or you could design a cubby for a small counter top MW in the pantry cabs, either behind doors or on an open shelf. The GE Spacemaker II MW is designed to fit in a standard upper cabinet so it would fit, no problem in your shallow pantry cabs.

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We use our toaster oven a lot, too. It was our only oven for 2 years after our oven died and couldn't be repaired (too old). We thought we'd get rid of it after the remodel but we decided to keep it. So glad we did!

We designed a cubby for it. It works really well for us but we dud add an automatic fan behind it (like the ones used in stereo cabs to cool off components) to blow hot air out of the cubby and protect our cabinets. If I were to do it again, I probably would make the cubby height 18" not the 15" we did to help with air circulation.

Here's mine:

You could do something similar on your pantry wall. Here's another example:

Modern Sleek Kitchen · More Info

You could also place it on a pull-out shelf in your pantry.

Beaconsfield Kitchen · More Info

Here's an example of MW and toaster oven in a tall pantry cabinet.

Yaskin Kitchen 4 · More Info

How large is your toaster oven? Our cubby is 19" deep with counter, which gives us room behind it and in front. We don't really need room behind it, per mfg specs, just room on each side of it and above.

HTH!

Or make the cabinets against the left window wall to the counter and add a "garage" cabinet there for the toaster oven.

As someone who had a drawer microwave for 7 years, I highly recommend them.

Perfect, just the help we needed. I like those options. And thank you for the feeback on the microwave drawer, I've heard mostly negative comments about them so I appreciate the positive input from someone that uses one!