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Anyone built David Wiggin's s' Fondare Estate?

Brooke Franzen
6 years ago

Just wondering if anyone has built s' Fondare Estate house plan by David Wiggins? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as we are hoping to build this plan in the near future!



Comments (42)

  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    6 years ago

    It looks like someone tried too hard.

  • bpath
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    It's worse than Crystal Falls. Homecoming traffic goes right through the butler pantry and dining or kitchen? When even the pictures they feature differ from the plan, there's a problem.

    edited to say just looked at Crystal Falls again and it's not as bad...mainly because it has fewer spaces. But still...

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  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    I agree with the complexity. For the lot we want to build on, the garage needs to be on the east side rather than the west, so I made some changes to the plan myself (very crude). Just wondering if i could take the plan to an architect and have them modify it to what we want, but keep the same look as the original, such as the same peaks, style etc., or is this something that i need to go through David Wiggins since he is the designer of the plan?

  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    6 years ago

    Have you considered working with a local architect?

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    A million plus build deserves to not be a carbon copy of a terrible plan. That has thousands more rubber stamped terrible McMansions all across the country.

  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Mark - yes I would definitely work with a local architect, i just really didn’t know the logistics of how it would work as far as taking the plans to someone else who didn’t design them originally and change them. I am not aware of any copyright issues with that..

  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Okay, yes, kind of what i was asking, just didn’t want to steal someone’s ideas! I did contact David Wiggins but i haven’t heard back from him yet. We plan to talk to a local architect and see if they would be interested in helping us...North Dakota doesn’t have a lot of architects or builders to choose from unfortunately..most people live in trailer houses or homes that their families built 60 years ago! :)

  • bpath
    6 years ago

    My mom's from Fargo :)

  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    6 years ago

    To work with an architect all you have to do is show up to the meeting. They will ask questions and you will ask questions. Some information may need a little work such as a site survey, and the architect should walk the site with you to share ideas. Look for an architect that has done a lot of homes. My cousin is in Bismarck but I think he is retired. I spent many summers in Bismarck and up on Lake Sakakawea. Depending on where you are site is located, you may have to go a little further than 'normal', but it will be worth it. Good luck with your project.

    Brooke Franzen thanked Mark Bischak, Architect
  • Mrs Pete
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    It's worse than Crystal Falls. Homecoming traffic goes right through the butler pantry and dining or kitchen?

    Agreed. Choppy little spaces, weird angles, overly-complicated footprint and roof, maze-like pathways. Though the great room looks nice, and I like the connection between the master bath and the utility room, I see little else to recommend this floor plan.

    The storybook exterior is unique and will appeal strongly to a small set of buyers, but it will be expensive ... but if storybook is what you want, you can have that PLUS a better floor plan.

  • PRO
    Virgil Carter Fine Art
    6 years ago

    "Fat plan", which means little to no natural light in much of the interiors...means a humongous, out-of-proportion roof on the exterior...

    A good tip off for unnecessarily complex and unresolved floor plans is to count the number of 45-degree diagonal walls. One is too many...more than one means someone couldn't work out spatial relationships and linkages...

    It's possible to do much better...

  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    What about the storybook style makes it so expensive? This biggest issue we have is that I look at floor plans and try to imagine the livability, but DH only looks at the outside of the house and dictates if it’s even a remote possibility based on how the house looks in the picture...makes it extremely difficult to get anything approved by him, sooo....he likes the look of this style and I am stuck trying to make the inside flow. Also, unfortunately, once he likes something and makes his mind up, that’s final. So, changing his mind on the style now is impossible...love him dearly but he’s already the death of me and we have barely just began planning!!

    Do you have any advice on getting this look that we like but keeping the cost down? We are a young couple and currently living in a single wide trailer house (not my ideal home!) but i just graduated from vet school and am finally able to contribute financially. Also, my parents just built a house and we helped them with almost every aspect of the build and have a lot of equipment for the job.


    Thank you all for the input!

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    What makes a house expensive to build? A fat house almost as long as it is wide. Angles. Juts and jogs. A roof that looks like some 17th century origami crane from the satellite image. Complexity is what makes for expense.

    And in this case, and many other puppy mill house plans, complexity without utility. It’s complexity just because. For visual appeal only. Not for functionality. Like a modern bulldog that can’t even give birth naturally. It’s an exaggeration of form to its complete detriment in utility.

    This is where an architect can do so much better. He can give you visual appeal, and just enough complexity. But with no rats nest of terrible flow and a jig and a job there to “add interest” only. If something has a castle tower, you can bet it will actually have a function that makes sense. Not, whoops, what can we stick in there.

    Contact Mark. He’s not that far from you. Close enough to make it work. And you should want to make a house costing a million plus work as well as have frou frou flourishes.

  • Holly Stockley
    6 years ago

    You might be able to work with someone remotely, who could do better. This gentleman enjoys working in the Storybook style:
    https://built4ever.deviantart.com/gallery/



    You could chat with him about a custom plan. He often bases his designs in the original Storybook plan books from the 20's. However, remember that anything with curves, angles, or lots of ornate detail will be expensive. So will slate or tile roofing - or even things that look like those elements. Ditto for stone facades. And the thing with Storybook is that it is these very details that make them look like Storybook.

  • Mrs Pete
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    What about the storybook style makes it so expensive?

    - Any wall (or staircase) that's rounded or arched is expensive (if it's curved like a $ sign, it's going to cost $$$). Very, very expensive. Think about it: wood is straight, so how much labor goes into making a round shape?

    - Storybook footprints tend to be made up of lots of jigs-and-jogs (as opposed to a simple ranch house that's a rectangle). Again, that means more labor: more cuts to make, more materials that are not fully utilized, more corners for the builder to produce. Plus all that gingerbread-type stuff in the top of the dormers and peaks.

    - Jigs-and-jogs force you into a more complicated roof line, and complicated roofs add big money to a build.

    - Non-standard materials. These houses aren't built out of the stuff you see down at Lowe's or Home Depot; rather, when you're talking about storybook, you're talking about arched front doors, arched casement windows, architectural shingles on the roof ... and any time you use something that's not standard, the price is going to be higher.

    - Don't forget, too, that this type of build can't be done by any Joe-Average builder and his entry-level helpers. Note all the fancy-fancies: beams on the ceiling, wainscotting on the walls -- this house is far from basic, far from simple -- and that costs. You're going to need master builders who can do top-notch finishing work.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't pursue this house -- just be aware of what you're choosing. Since you're just finishing your education, this might be a house for future years -- it's not likely to be an entry-level price house.

  • PRO
    Mark Bischak, Architect
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Years ago I designed a "farmhouse" for a client in a small new development that had what some would call a storybook home in it. The first house built in the development was the storybook home and the one I designed was second. Shortly after the house I designed was started, a large nationally known "home building company" bought all the other lots and built vinyl sided builder's specials.

    A few years ago I designed a shingle style home, with a little bit of whimsy, on a good size lot on a big lake.

    I guess my point is to make sure the style of the home is fitting to its surrounding environment.

  • cpartist
    6 years ago

    If you're just starting out, maybe you need to consider either buying a resale house and making it "cute" for now and saving up for several years until you're more financially stable. Then you can build your storybook house.

    Or if you absolutely want to build now, maybe you have to think in terms of something more simple. As others have pointed out, details are expensive.

  • taconichills
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Whats wrong with buying the storybook plan from the architect David Wiggins online, and then building it with the sexy and gorgeous and expensive jigs and jogs? The jigs and jogs will cost 125k more, or you can pay another architect almost that much to take out the expensive jigs and jogs??? Now you spent the same money, have a more boring home, and gave all your money to the architect? I can't for the life of me figure out how this makes any sense. Who would pay a ton of money to undazzle the home?

    Brooke Franzen thanked taconichills
  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    We own our farm and our closest neighbors are about 4 miles away, so we can basically go with any style we choose, which is great. It also means that there is no chance of us buying a different home to live in while we save up since we are already doing that currently in our trailer house! Our goal is to build a forever home before we are too old to actually get a chance to live in it, enjoy it and raise our future children in it. However, obviously cost is a factor to every aspect of life and i am curious about the cost variance in just going with the plan and working with Mr. Wiggin’s himself to make changes vs working with a local architect and designing from scratch. I also think it’s very odd that the site that has this particular plan estimates the cost to build at 260k...not sure what they base that on because it seems like most everyone on here is insinuating that this plan is a multimillion dollar home to build.

    Research and learning is all part of the process!

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago

    You can barely do the sitework and foundation for that house for 260K. The way costs have risen since the hurricanes, you certainly can’t frame and roof that puppy for 260K.

    Look around you for homes of similar complexity and size. What do they sell for? Then realize that’s a used house price. New carries a new house premium. And is subject to market price fluctuations on materials.

    Whst is your actual projected budget to build? Does that cover the lot improvements, or is that extra?

  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    I have looked at homes near where we live, however since we are so rural here, any home that is for sale also comes with a good chunk of land (15-30+ acres) which increases the overall price, or you have to search residential homes which are much more expensive in large towns around us because the cost of housing in general is high in towns. I rarely see homes for sale over 500k and most of those homes, though not as complex as this one, are 4000-5000sqft.

    My husband is a farmer and has a lot of equipment for site preparation; tractors, backhoes, dirt movers, gravel trucks, payloader etc. so site prep isn’t going to be an additional cost, other than our time.

    As far as our budget, we don’t know as of right now since we are basically just getting started and trying to decide what we like and getting input on the designs in general. We haven’t gone to our banker since we don’t really have an amount in mind to request...lots of chicken and egg business!

  • Holly Stockley
    6 years ago

    You probably really DO want to go talk to the bank right now - and figure out just where you are financially. Keep in mind they may also be willing to approve you for a debt-to-income ratio that you are uncomfortable with, so sit down and do some budgeting. One you know what you can spend, you can start to look determine how much house you can biuld.

    Site prep will still cost you SOMETHING, because you're going to need things like a well, and septic. And most of the time, permitting is such that you'll need to have someone else doing a lot of that work.

    "Estimated cost to build" on those websites is often woefully out of date or inapplicable locally - or both. The same often applies to "estimates" you'll get on this site. People tend to quote what is standard for their locale, which can vary markedly.

    As to adjusting that plan vs. hiring an architect - Adjusting THAT plan will give you: That plan, in a way that might or might not allow you to afford to build it. The firm that prints it isn't going to know or care what building costs are in your area, so you'll need to have a local builder lined up to run it by.

    Hiring an architect - costwise, it varies wildly, again. Using a firm is expensive, and can run you 5-10% of the project cost. You're better off, for a small residential project, to find someone who has hung out his/her own shingle. Sometimes retired, or semi-retired, these folks have the luxury of picking and choosing the clients and projects they want to work with - and don't have the overhead of employees, offices, etc. There are a number of them on this forum. Hang out for a little bit and you'll figure out who they are, or they'll even volunteer. Another option is to find someone who is willing to take a charette approach and creating your design, then hand it off to you to have a local draftsman do the nuts and bolts portions. Look [here[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/we-fit-an-architect-into-our-budget-and-it-was-so-worth-it-dsvw-vd~3598813?n=18) for more.

    As a fellow veterinarian, let me also just suggest this: It sounds like you're married to someone whose livelihood is such that you're not likely to pick up and move easily. That makes things a bit more complicated for you, should you end up not being happy in your current place of employment. Try to arrange things in the money department in such a way that you can either hang out your own shingle, buy in, or take off a number of years entirely if you have an onerous noncompete. Or, prepare for a rotten commute. I could tell stories, even (especially?) in cases of family businesses.

    Brooke Franzen thanked Holly Stockley
  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thank you for your advice! Unfortunately I already have a pretty lousy commute (130 miles a day), and where we are located there are just not any clinics any closer, however, you don’t just pick up a farm and move it! Haha


    We definitely do plan to meet with the bank, it’s a very small town bank who we know the owner personally and have gone through for our previous mortgage, and ultimately I do want to avoid being “house broke”.

    Also i should mention that we do live on the farm we own currently in our wonderful single wide :) so we do have a well already dug, so the septic tank would be the only other thing, but I do believe my parents put their own in when they built their home a couple years ago.

    Thank you again for the advice. I think it comes down to finding a simpler plan since we can be prettt confident that such a complex plan is going to be outside the budget since we’re definitely not wanting to spend a million, and meeting with a banker to get a good idea on what we can really afford.

  • Holly Stockley
    6 years ago

    Now you're on the right track. ;-)

    It happens to us all. You get excited, and your eyes get bigger than your budget.

    The first iteration we got back from our architect was about 30% too big. We had to have him downsize it, rather sheepishly. And he also simplified the perimeter to make it more economical to build. We're much nearer now to having something doable, though it took a bit of back-and-forth.

    Brooke Franzen thanked Holly Stockley
  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    My eyes are so, so big! But who wants that much house to clean anyway?!

    Everything takes time, but I really don’t want to be stuck in our trailer house forever! Haha

  • Holly Stockley
    6 years ago

    Consider having an architect draw something up that has a planned addition as part of the concept from the very start?

  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Yes, for sure. We have definitely thought about that, and actually planned to wait to finish the upstairs at a later time too. We don’t plan to do a basement either since the water table here is so high, everyone end up flooding!

    Another thought, could you not take any regular floor plan that you like and when making decisions on the siding, roofing, etc. choose materials that are consistent with the storybook style to get that same look? Assuming the roof lines are going to be more straight and some outer walls won’t be slanted, but some of the designs by wiggin have been built with a lot less character than he puts in his renderings.

  • cpartist
    6 years ago

    The problem with the Wiggin plan is it's just bad. Poor design inside. Since you like a storybook feel, talk to local architects and show them examples of what you like. Let an architect come up with something wonderful within your budget that is a better fit for your lives, without the horrible layout that his plans have.


  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    What about the plan makes it horrible? I ask with true curiosity, not sarcasm! When looking at a plan some of the things I focus on is the size of the living room/great room where you ultimately spend most of your time. I also need the master bed/bath on the main floor for when I'm only and can't get my arthritis up the stairs. Another aspect that is somewhat important to me is to have a room on the main floor than can serve as nursery for the time it is needed, but then be transitioned into an office in the future when a nursery is no longer needed. I need a walk in pantry!

    The house I grew up in, and most houses I know in general tend to be set up where you come in from the garage and make your way to the kitchen to deposit groceries...I don't necessarily see a need for a separate dining area, however I'm sure that if/when hosting holidays and such it might be a nice space to have a formal dining table.

    Any thoughts?? I do like to hear other people's opinions on layouts because a lot of times they get you thinking and you do realize that certain locations for rooms/spaces are much better than others and vice versa. I know a lot of it is just personal preference and no one is going to like everything the same as everyone else.

  • Holly Stockley
    6 years ago

    Print it out, take some colored pencils or pens (did you have one of those 10 color ink ones that everybody had for anatomy and physiology? That one). Draw out the path you have to take for everyday tasks. Bring in the groceries. Take laundry from your bedroom to the wash. Take the (eventual) kids' laundry from their rooms to the washer and dryer and back up. Where will you enter the house from your own farm? Where do you go to clean up for dinner? All of that.

    So, first minus - that angled kitchen is really going to drive you crazy, account for a lot of wasted space and require fully custom cabinets to even TRY to make use of its layout.

    Do you need/want formal dining? If you don't, you're probably better off with a plan that has room for a nice family table just off the kitchen.

    That office? Again, random angled walls = expensive and just annoying. It's very hard to decorate those rooms. And you'd better hope the framers get it right. (Hint - they won't.) Also, if THAT is the room you're planning to put baby in... Nope. Right by the front door is not the best spot. I'll be honest, mine were always upstairs while we were down. Monitors are incredibly sensitive, and we ALL slept better when I wasn't waking up every time THEY rolled over and THEY weren't up when my husband was exhausted and snoring.

    Farm, right? You want a mudroom. If you have livestock, you might even want a mudroom that includes the laundry. Possibly even a bathroom/shower. Grandma never let Grandpa in the house until he went downstairs, took a shower, and changed his clothes. Ergo, the house never smelled like cow.

    Open stairwell w/balcony = standing challenge for boys to try to kill themselves. I also had a cat who'd have fallen off. Also, you're in my climate. Guess where all your heat will be? That's right, at the top of the stairs.

    Media room over the Master? Nope, again. Unless you want to be up all night when your kids have friends for sleepovers.

    This very square plan with an overwrought roof will be expensive to build - for a lot of not worthwhile reasons (angles, tall roof, LOTS of roof, etc.) And, if you do what budget will probably dictate and use asphalt shingles, you'll be paying through the nose AGAIN to put a new roof on it in less than 20 years.

    While it seems like you could have this modified to your use and probably only spend about $3000-4000 for "plans", you could spend a little more than that and get a plan designed FOR you. Not finishing a space doesn't save you ALL that much. You might be better off to build something you can easily add onto entirely down the road. Build another wing when your family expands. Plus, it will work FOR you and the way you live, rather than you having to adjust your living patterns around the house.

    (Really, if you like to cook or bake - run away from that kitchen)

  • Brooke Franzen
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Haha I did literally lol at your statement about boys trying to kill themselves on the stairs! So true! You definitely have a lot of great points about mudroom and laundry, we’ll have a heated garage and need to put in a place to clean up out there for sure. We don’t have cattle, but horses are messy and my husband is always finding oil and dirt which can happily stay outside!

    I think our plan will be to try to find an architect that would be willing to work with us to create something that works much better, and then add some of the design aesthetics that give it that storybook feel without costing an enormous amount, maybe some stone or curved window frames.

    Therefore, anyone know of an architect that would be willing to take on a fun project?! :)

    thank you again Holly :)

  • summersrhythm_z6a
    6 years ago

    May be Virgil? Mark is expensive, I can tell. Lol

  • bpath
    6 years ago

    Just a little OT, but what does the name s' fondare mean?

  • cpartist
    6 years ago

    Ask Architectrunnerguy if he'd be willing to do a remote with you.

  • summersrhythm_z6a
    6 years ago

    I love horse barns.....and I love this one: http://equinesystems.com/horse-barns/

  • beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally
    6 years ago

    Farm, right? You want a mudroom. If you have livestock, you might even want a mudroom that includes the laundry. Possibly even a bathroom/shower. Grandma never let Grandpa in the house until he went downstairs, took a shower, and changed his clothes. Ergo, the house never smelled like cow.

    We farm too (cows, horses, sheep and more), my husband is also a builder, and there's always a good amount of tinkering with filthy machines, so we have our mudroom, a bathroom with a shower, and an old washing machine and dryer (for chore clothes, coveralls, etc.) in the heated garage as a first line of defense before people even get inside the house.

    That kitchen will be dark, and you will come to regret, probably fairly quickly, all those weird angles, in the kitchen and at the entrance to the dining room and study.

    One thing that I don't think has been said is that if you are so fortunate to have a farm and a good amount of land, take advantage of that by having a house built specifically for your site. Don't plop a cookie cutter house meant for an urban lot on your lovely, unique piece of the countryside. The other side of that is, don't be in a hurry to settle on something that's not special, because as you say, with a farm, you're not going to be moving any time soon, if ever. Take your time planning a beautiful, functional house that will serve you and your husband, and your future family, well for a long time.

  • Love stone homes
    6 years ago

    Agee with CP. we hired architectrunnerguy who did an awesome job (remotely) and we live in Canada.(:

  • _sophiewheeler
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    On land that you own and are not likely to sell, it makes a lot more sense to plan a home that will be built in stages as your income goes up.

    A traditional approach to this would be a central small 2 story structure that then has a large roofed screened type room connecting to a garage. That screened connector (built to home standards for foundation and structural) becomes the wing with family room/kitchen/ mudroom extension for the first addition.

    Then, as the kids grow and can be left upstairs by themselves, an Universally Designed master wing is the second addition on the other side. It’s a traditional Big House, Little House, Garage, Barn, Shed approach that so many functional farms have used for generations.

    It does leave you living in smaller rooms for the initial stages of the home build. That isnt necessarily bad. And with you living in a trailer now, you’ve already adapted to untilizing every inch of space. And siting it correctly, with the utility services and septic located ideally, is critical.

    That isn’t something that you are going to be able to have a puppy mill plan ever accomplish. But it really works with your budget to get you the essentials, and grow with you as your family grows and your needs and income changes. And should you decide to be a one income family, you are not over extended from the start.

  • Mrs Pete
    6 years ago

    Our goal is to build a forever home before we are too old to
    actually get a chance to live in it, enjoy it and raise our future
    children in it.

    I have the impression you're young -- the comment about "before we're too old" rings false with me. Don't rush into this big commitment.

    I also think it’s
    very odd that the site that has this particular plan estimates the cost
    to build at 260k...not sure what they base that on because it seems like
    most everyone on here is insinuating that this plan is a multimillion
    dollar home to build.

    It's 2587 square feet, right? It's not an accurate measurement, but just consider that. A builder-basic house can be had for about $100/sf ... that'd bring you to $258,700 ... and that's for cheap carpet, laminate countertops, hollow doors ... not at all the inspiration pix. You're talking about a complicated floorplan ... in a rural area, which comes with its own set of pros and cons, and also some extra costs.

    On the other hand, you have a couple things on your side: you already own the land, and since you live on it, I assume you already have a driveway, water and other utilities on the property. You'll have to pay to bring them to the build site, but it won't be as bad as bringing the lines themselves in.

    I don't know that it's a multi-million dollar build, but no way is it a -- what'd you say? -- 260,000ish build. Why do the plan people say these things? Easy. They want you to buy the plan. They don't care whether you can afford to build the house. Same reason the diet pill people say you can drop 40 pounds in a month without changing your diet or exercising. They want your money.

    I
    have looked at homes near where we live, however since we are so rural
    here

    I get it. I'm from a rural area too, and -- yeah -- it's harder to estimate than a house in a neighborhood.

    We haven’t gone to our banker
    since we don’t really have an amount in mind to request...lots of
    chicken and egg business!

    You're just finishing school, right? The bank doesn't want to hear that you're well-educated and are about to start working -- they want to know that you have a secure job and can show them some numbers on a paycheck.

    You'll certainly get a better interest rate after you can show that you've been on the job a while, but I think you should talk to the bank and ask your friend for advice /options.
    Yes,
    for sure. We have definitely thought about that, and actually planned
    to wait to finish the upstairs at a later time too.

    The bank isn't going to go for that (banker friend or not). If you're borrowing money, they want to know that IF they were to take back the house (they have to think that way -- don't take insult), it'd be ready to put on the market with minimal effort. They aren't going to finance half an unfinished house. They might go for an unfinished rec room, but fewer than three bedrooms /two baths will be impossible.

    My eyes are so, so big! But who wants that much house to clean anyway?!

    Especially with a difficult commute and kids on the horizon.

    Another thought, could you not take any regular floor plan that you like
    and when making decisions on the siding, roofing, etc. choose materials
    that are consistent with the storybook style to get that same look?

    Absolutely you can. Pick a layout that works, and add the features to make it look storybook.