^^^ bry I do suspect that some of the differences are regional. Production feels closer to semi custom here - but I am making sure that I am not confusing / applying different criteria simply based on price either.

Thanks.

The one change I would make to Architect Designed is that not every architect specs all interior finishes. As Summit described, in my area it is common for the architect to design the home including exterior/structural finish selection, and then hand it off to an interior designer for interior finish selection, as well as finalizing kitchen and bathroom layouts. This is the process we are in right now. Most of the interior designers who work this way have significant backgrounds in architecture and design, though they are not employed by either architect or builder. Our interior designer is actually an architect by training but has decided she prefers to focus on the interior.

Yes Kristen. That describes most of my projects quite well. I like doing interiors, but I can't do as well as someone who does them all day every day for decades. I appreciate the expertise of a great interior designer.

Great points - I should have put the "levels" of involvement in an Architect custom - which can employ various professionals / specialists. Or that an Architect can provide a more limited set of services.

Of course I can't edit the original (or, possibly, I am not smart enough to do so.)

Very informative! Ours was definitely Architect designed/fully custom. Our older neighborhood of tear downs has no restrictions on style of home....just the usual setback and height restrictions. We hired an architect who designed us a home from scratch. He spec'd out exterior finishes, but he didn't spec anything for interior. I'm sure that was option, but he's a personal friend and designed the home at a significant discount so we didn't take advantage of some of the more detailed services. I did talk to a couple of architects who did say their fee structure depended on the level of service desired. We could have paid for interior design services through them.

So we spec'd, purchased, picked up/delivered, paid for everything on our own. Acting as our own GC, we didn't have to work through a builder for any of it. I did use an interior designer for a phase of the build to help me with some decision points. I have found that many of our friends who have built homes think they were getting a custom home when in reality it was closer to semi-custom or tract home. Most were surprised we were going the route we went and that we could pick anything we wanted!

Trying to figure out my category.

Log home, you pick a plan, modify it left and right, log prices and what comes with only changes with actual quantity used. Company vets out established builders they've worked with in the past (I had 2 to choose from). They came on site to be sure log construction went as planned, for which many kudos.

I was my own interior designer, and on that level, I am extremely happy. Not as happy with GC... he is wanting to retire, and cares a lot less about quality as time goes on.

At any rate, no overage charges for picking out fixtures, etc., after I see the place in situ, so long as decisions are timely.

^That's a good one Mark! Well, I mean a good name for an awful situation.

And then the proud homeowner proudly advertises it as the Architect's design....

Can we change 'architect custom' to 'TRUE CUSTOM' as an identifier?

Myself, mushcreek, and others have designed and spec'd our own homes, no architect involved!

jannicone this is really weird - I was tossing and turning at 4:30 this morning with this exact post topic rolling around in my head! Freaky!

I was talking to a friend who is building a home in a neighborhood where there is one builder and house plans to choose from etc. They chose from packages, i.e. Light package, plumbing fixture package etc. They chose a light package but wanted the dining room light from another package. To get that ONE light, the builder required they upgrade the whole package. Craziest thing right? That would drive me nuts. Another lesson in READ the CONTRACT.

Yep, there's a whole series of other categories: 1) Owner designed; 2) Owner paid a drafter, CAD driver or relative or employee of a builder designed; 3) Owner bought a design from a plan factory and had No. 2 make some modifications.

The options are endless.

How about...

Full-Custom - all ground up designs whether good or bad, without regard to who actually designed, including homeowner, architect, or Santa Clause.

Semi-custom - selection and modification of an existing design where extensive customization is allowed.

Builder-spec - Upgraded production where most semi-custom or fully custom choices are made by builder rather than the eventual buyer.

Production - Limited "upgrades" available for a premium, but no real customization

Tract - Limited "upgrades" available for a premium, but no real customization, with base models practically given away and still overpriced.

Luxury-Tract - Same as tract but a regular sized lawnmower will actually fit between your house and your neighbor's.

I agree with the idea of 'Full Custom'. cpartist's house is definitely Full Custom, as is mine. Even my cabinets and moldings are custom made. Other than a cheap vanity in the basement bathroom, I can't think of anything that was production-built in our house.

Heck even cabinet lines have confusing/conflicting custom, semi-custom, builder-grade definitions.

My issue with the original is that you can have truly custom in every sense of the word without involvement of an architect. So what are we supposed to call that?

And just because things aren't speced out fully before breaking ground, doesn't mean it isn't custom.

My situation - designed by designer, one with 20 years experience who has designed 100s of one off designs. Didn't spec out any finishes specifically. But every detail is speced out with builder with zero assumptions. Just were discussing siding exposure - which was not exactly speced out with designer although there were discussions about it. Just spent some time with shower valve layout. There are no assumptions on finishes and no change orders.

So I don't think I would call that Builder Custom but it isn't Architect Designed either.

Great. Now the task of educating the masses.

What... Yeah, can't hear me either... Bad line... Forget it. Coffee, anyone?

Anlgo said, "...This is very useful information that should be put in a saved file."

I was skimming and my brain registered something about saving a life.

We need an Owner in the Dark category too. Owner who hasn't the foggiest idea who actually dreamt up the plan, and was in no way part of it. Architect, designer under the guise, uncaring architect's interns, the world-wide web, ...

^That's a scary category: Owner in the Dark. I wouldn't want to be there....but we see many that post surprise elements all the time.

The more scary part is that if you were there, you probably wouldn't know it.

I 100% agree with Full Custom that slots in between Architect Custom and Builder Custom. This can include a lot of self builds, designer designed, and where the owner has a tremendous amount of flexibility in any / all areas to specify, well, anything. Key here is that when engaging a builder, to ensure that the builder knows that you mean by full custom, and not Builder Custom - because I see this as a pretty big sticking point we've seen frequently. I suspect one of the reasons that happens is that there is a lack of starting specifications and the Builder, in any contract needs to have some assumptions.

I think too many differentiations between production, tract and luxury tract is too many / too confusing and I tried not to delineate categories based on price point. Although spec house might be another - since the builder is often showcasing certain things to appeal to a wider audience- but then again - spec is a modifier to several of the existing categories - as Builder Customs, Tract and Semi-Custom can all be Spec too!

Harder than it seemed, huh?

How about: 1) Full custom; 2) Some custom; 3) A wee bit custom (on one wall); 4) Not one iota custom; 5) Help me, I've fallen and can't get up...

And of course, for Owners in the Dark: 6) Who needs custom anyway?

PS: Remind me why we're doing this in the first place...?

^LMAO....everyone is funny after coffee in the am:)

I 100% agree with Full Custom that slots in between Architect Custom and Builder Custom.

Sorry, maybe it is just early and I am more contrary than normal. But I simply don't think architect custom is its own category. If the house was designed for the owner and the site then it is full custom, who did the design makes no more difference for that category than it does for any of the other categories. Are there going to be categories for architect designed tract home?

I believe these categories broadly establish the level of influence the owner and/or site has on the process, whether through actual input or as a focus for design, the qualifications of the designer are really neither necessary or sufficient to guarantee a well designed home. Obviously, a good architect creates the surest path to a well designed home, but it is not the only path.

"If the house was designed for the owner and the site then it is full custom"

True

"who did the design makes no more difference for that category than it does for any of the other categories."

To fit the category of 'custom' it does not make a difference.
But the categorisation of who designed it is of great importance, and can make a world of difference.

Custom does not mean good. If I designed my own house, it would most certainly be custom. But it would also most certainly differ greatly from the design of an architect. Hence the impotance of the differentiation.

But the categorisation of who designed it is of great importance, and can make a world of difference.

How so? I submit that who designed a house is of no importance unless you have a Frank Lloyd Wright house or something like that, and even then it is probably an economic rather than a design benefit.

ETA: I am not against architects, and in no way am I implying that someone shouldn't hire an architect. But this is a common logical fallacy, just because architects are much more likely to produce a great design, doesn't mean that every great design had an architect or every architect produced great design. Great design is independent of who produced it, it is either good or not all on its own.

It is somewhat funny that I mentioned Frank Lloyd Wright above, as I forgot he wasn't an architect when he was designing homes.

"But the categorisation of who designed it is of great importance, and can make a world of difference. How so?"

This is how so, as you yourself say, "architects are much more likely to produce a great design"

"doesn't mean that every great design had an architect or every architect produced great design"
Most certainly not. I live in quite a well designed house, that was not designed by an architect. And I have seen architects' plans that were flawed in ridiculously basic aspects.
I said custom does not mean good. I'll add; architect designed does not mean good either. Imaginative, innovative, skilled designers may have the qualification or not.

But again, there's that "likelihood", based on which we can choose to categorise plans should we wish to.

Respectfully, every single one of the above categories can be subdivided into architect designed. I know for a fact that a local tract builder uses an architect to design their plans. So does every single category up there.

Are those houses better designed because an architect is involved? Yes, they absolutely are. Yet that doesn't make them more custom, which is what we are categorizing.

"It is somewhat funny that I mentioned Frank Lloyd Wright above, as I forgot he wasn't an architect when he was designing homes."

Bry911 if you mean he didn't have a college degree, that's true. He was mentored as an architect the same way many architects were trained in the early 1900's. By that logic Mozart wasn't a musician.

I am hesitant to post this, as I am sure someone will take offense and it isn't intended that way. But I am going to, because fools rush in and all...

As an academic in the social sciences, this particular board is very interesting to watch. There is a very obvious cognitive bias here.

The most custom house is designed by the homeowner without any input from an architect or any other professional. That is kind of exactly what custom means, the more input the owner has, the more custom. However, this forum has established that custom equals quality, and therefore must remove poor designs from that pinnacle of "custom."

I suspect there are more poorly designed custom homes than there are well designed custom homes, and I suspect that the poor designs are winning by a wide margin. I also suspect that a significant percentage of those poorly designed homes were architect created. I can show you entire neighborhoods of tragically bad designs that were created by an architect. It should be noted that the architect lives in the neighborhood of poor designs, many of which he created, and his house is obviously well designed (even to my limited understanding).

Is that architects house more custom because it is well designed? Nope, in fact, it is proof that custom really doesn't mean quality. I am sure he would prefer to create great designs all the time, but the clients wanted their vision and he produced things they were happy with, which is actually more custom than talking the clients into well designed homes that strayed from their vision.

He was mentored as an architect the same way many architects were trained in the early 1900's.

I mean that because of licensing requirement were he practicing today he couldn't call himself an architect (at least not before he was in his 80's). He would be a designer, and would actually be committing a crime by advertising himself as an architect. Is Ando a great architect? Because the norm in his life has certainly been a formal education and liencse.

I am simply noting that a license to do something isn't a guarantee of quality. Easily seen driving down any road.

By that logic Mozart wasn't a musician.

I didn't realize that musicians had a professional license requirement.

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However, if you allow that Frank Lloyd Wright was great at architecture because of the work he did to become great rather than a license or formal education, and Mozart was a great musician despite no license or formal education, then you must also allow that an unlicensed designer with no formal education can be a great designer.

ETA: So given your two examples of greatness should this board stop advising people to get an architect and instead advise them to find someone whose passion and work in architecture comes out in their designs, be they a designer, drafter or architect?

ETA2: No I am not advising this. I am just noting that custom is custom and quality is quality and the two are not even close to synonymous.

Just checked out a $5+ million spec house which is advertised as architect designed (by a local architect, whose work I think is mediocre).

So many things done wrong/cheaply with the design and finishes. It was certainly customized to maximize profit!

Perhaps I will contend the level of difference is the specifications and detail that is provided by an Architect vs a designer or draftsperson or owner. And yes - the non-architects CAN provide the level of detail - but they cannot certify plans to be submitted for building. Architect completed plans can be sealed and signed. The professional titling of an Architect does bear certain professional qualifications.

"However, if you allow that Frank Lloyd Wright was great at architecture because of the work he did to become great rather than a license or formal education, and Mozart was a great musician despite no license or formal education, then you must also allow that an unlicensed designer with no formal education can be a great designer."

That is true. though not the most common specimen, a person of design-talent does not necessarily come wrapped as a qualified architect.

"ETA: So given your two examples of greatness should this board stop advising people to get an architect and instead advise them to find someone whose passion and work in architecture comes out in their designs, be they a designer, drafter or architect?"

I daren't suggest the board take a united stance on anything. And what would be the fun in that?
But while I agree that architects aren't exclusively & exhaustively the great designers, I hold the chances of a good design are best among that group than any other. And more often than not, the owners who receive this type of advice don't know the difference between good design & bad.
They look at plans and just. don't. get. the. difference. between a cohesive, unobtrusive design beauty and one of those four-room-deep-snout-garage-with-45degree-angled-wing-&-fake-dormers.
Try explaining looking for passion and skill in work to a non-design person. It's like me judging the winter olympics. heck, I've seen snow falling once in my life.

"how is a tract home designed by an architect more custom than a custom home designed by a designer"

A tract house is not custom, an architect-tract house is not custom, a custom house is custom.

I am really enjoying this by the way. So if anyone is taking this any way other than a light hearted discussion, that is not my intention.

This board loves architects, and I admit to being very impressed with the architects on this forum, and indeed in other encounters. In fact, this board loves architects so much that many will gladly commit non sequitur leaps in defense of their value, even lacking an attack on said value.

Even allowing that custom houses are better than other types, and allowing that architect designed homes are better than those designed by others. Doesn't make architect designed homes more custom. It is a logical fallacy that a middle school debate team would notice in three minutes.

You are attempting to inject a measure of quality into a list that distinguishes between customization in creation of a design. Which is only appropriate if you add that quality designation to all levels. There is a local tract builder who builds net zero houses. They are incredibly nice and well designed homes, but he is still a tract builder, because of the limited customization options available.

This is no slight to architects at all. I suspect architects will happily concede that custom designs don't require an architect, if we allowed that the best designs usually have an architect.

So- Is an architect who specializes in tract homes called an 'architract'? I just invented that word, but freely give all permission to use it.

I think bry911 said it best! :)

PS - No architect on my build but we had over 100 drawings/spec sheets for the build. We spec'd it down to the door stops, paint colors, EVERYTHING! Took me and hubs working evenings for a half a year, but our GC pinned up our drawings on the walls, and said 'build to THIS!'.

And our build came in within 0.05% of our budget, too! (Was a fixed price contract, and we held them to those drawings!)

Bry... "Even allowing that custom houses are better than other types, and allowing that architect designed homes are better than those designed by others. Doesn't make architect designed homes more custom."

If this is addressed to me, I had just said, "A tract house is not custom, an architect-tract house is not custom, a custom house is custom."

So perhaps we agree on some points more than realise?

Entertaining though this discourse is, it is late, here anyway. I'm off

Such an interesting conversation. But what does it all mean? What value does it have?

1. Definitions: Custom, semi-custom, sorta custom, not hardly custom...so what? You get what you pay for. Sometimes.

2. Goals: What are your goals for a new house? Shelter? Another bedroom or newer kitchen? A new neighborhood? A "forever" house? Something to enhance and make your live more meaningful? How about a Modern Farmhouse (sarcasm is one of the highest forms of humor)?

3. Knowledge: What works for Owner in the Dark? For those who don't know what they don't know, everything looks pretty attractive, if the price and location are right.

4. Education and experience: Do you want someone to design your house with significant relevant education and experience, or someone who's learning on the job? Does it really matter?

5. Quality and beauty: In the eyes of the beholder, but the perceptions are very different between Owners in the Dark and Owners who Know. And then there's Owners who Think They Can Do It Themselves. Take your pick.

I always thought that a "custom home" was a home with a floor plan and elevations unlike any other. A home that was built custom for the unique tastes and desires of a homeowner. Or maybe built on spec, or even built to introduce a new construction method or material or design feature. I don't know that it would matter if it's a beautiful design or a clunker. Or if it's architect designed, or "Joe down the street" designed. What matters is that it is one of a kind.

"...I still wouldn't give it the same amount of attention that someone actually interested would..."

Here's the issue in a nutshell.

There's no question that a designer with a better education, more experience and a higher level of creativity is going to produce a better, higher quality design--doesn't matter if the field is architecture, clothing design, short stories or soufflés. Education, experience and creative spark win every time.

The question is...does it matter? To those for whom Good Enough is Good Enough the answer is clearly...no! Good enough will do; excellence isn't necessary or desired.

On the other hand, for those who recognize excellence and who appreciate excellence, Good Enough will never do. But first, one must be interested...

Take your pick.

The question is...does it matter?

I think it does, because words matter. We throw around words on this board constantly when we really mean other things, and I too am guilty of this. Custom really doesn't mean custom when used on this board, it means architect.

So someone who maybe isn't experienced on this board may see the word "custom" and think they designed their house from the ground up, therefore it is very custom. When most posters really mean the house needs someone with professional design experience and some measure of talent to guide you through the design process or actually design the home.

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Also a better understanding of the differentiation can lead to better advice. In the area I was born in (an area that I still own land in), the major tract builder can build a 4,000 square foot house for under $280,000. If you can't differentiate between a tract and production builder, it is hard to understand how that is possible.

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Finally, I am not sure this board does a great job these days of helping people build a home. I might be alone in this, but I would prefer a well built, poorly designed home over a poorly built, well designed home. We focus so much on the design process and the freedom you have to make selections that we sometimes miss the real tragedy of production and tract builders, the shortcuts they take in construction in order to deliver those appealing prices.

While I agree custom homes are better than semi-custom and semi-custom is better than production, etc., the real quality cutoff for me is control of the how the walls are built rather than where they are built. For me this is the biggest draw for an architect and the thing rarely touched on, but may actually pay dividends far into the future that make architects not only affordable, but profitable for those value conscious consumers.

Again, this is just my opinion.

There are a lot of people here who advise owners to 'get an architect to design a custom home' so the architect-custom recommendation often goes together And for reasons stated above, you are generally better off with an architect, & with a home custom designed. I certainly don't say architect meaning just custom. The design talent-knowledge combination is what I find the draw of an architect. A well-designed and well-built house is an achievable goal, and the preferable one too, no?

@Najeebah

Architects are not under attack, no one, so far as I can see, has said anything negative about architects in this thread, they don't need your constant defense.

I certainly don't say architect meaning just custom

Read through all the posts in this thread again, and then tell me that custom includes poorly designed by a homeowner.

ETA: I am not upset, I don't want to continue to bump this thread for pointless back and forth, but the idea that this board as a whole doesn't equate custom with quality seems disingenuous. If we can't agree on anything else, can't we at least agree that when people say "you should have a home designed custom for your site" they mean "you should have a home professionally designed custom for your site"?

@NajeebahArchitects are not under attack, no one, so far as I can see, has said anything negative about architects in this thread, they don't need your constant defense.

Jeez Bry, take it easy. I took nothing here as an attack on architects, and was defending no-one. I stated my views. I don't see how and why you find issue with that, but this is where I leave the thread.

as a general rule, if you are interested enough to engage an Architect for a custom home, I'd like to think you were engaged enough to care about the "how" the wall was built and not just the "where".

My Architect had designed (and built) the first LEED gold (I think) house in NC, so his design was not only beautiful, but he designed for a certain quality just as a matter of practice. And Architect is not simply a fancy designer, (s)he is a professional skills in many more practices than just drawing a pretty house. They typically can design the building details that will contribute to a well built / long lasting / energy efficient home. They are proud of their product and want to see it last. it also represents their craft, so providing details that can be executed and feel "substantial" (read quality) are a positive reflection on them.

In Architect designed homes I have been in, there is always a certain solidity in the stairs, floors and other details that make me feel that they will withstand years of use. Even high end semi custom don't seem to have the same level of "substance" in my experience.

This is fun! I'm currently doing a full-custom with basic arch plans. Arch did not spec anything on the interior and we have no designer.

"...This is fun! I'm currently doing a full-custom with basic arch plans. Arch did not spec anything on the interior and we have no designer..."

Stand by for more fun and frolic, selections and decision making and potential for insufficient allowances and change orders than you can imagine...

Good luck!