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cranefire

Compact or vigorous? Your experiences with these varieties, please?

cranefire
6 years ago

I’m planning to grow several tomato varieties, but I have room in my vegetable garden for only four or five plants. I’ll plant the rest as edible landscape specimens and in containers. I plan on growing only one of each variety. (That may change if queries elsewhere on this forum suggest a given variety’s pros outweigh its cons, or vice versa.)


All of my seeds are from Baker Creek (except Indigo Kumquat, from Johnny’s), and all of the varieties are new to me. I’ve been studying customers’ reviews on their website, but they are often inconsistent when characterizing the size or vigor of a given variety.


If you’ve grown ANY of the following, I’d be grateful if you’d tell me if your plant(s) where vigorous (tall and/or sprawling), compact, or somewhere in between. Your location or zone information would be additionally helpful. Thanks!


The tomatoes:


Ananas Noire

Green Vernissage

Indigo Kumquat

Napa Chardonnay Blush

Raspberry Lyanna

Rebekah Allen

Red Vernissage

Riesentraube

Solar Flare

Comments (23)

  • Labradors
    6 years ago

    I grew Riesentraube a few times. It's a compact sprawler which I should think would be fine in a 3 gallon container.


    Linda

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  • digdirt2
    6 years ago

    The only 3 I'd comment on would be Solar Flare which is a hard, spitter IMO and Ananas Noire - many previous discussions here about it - that is pretty but doesn't appeal to me personally for flavor. You can always type the name in the search bar here to read previous discussions/opinions.

    Riesentraube is an indeterminate cherry with heavy clusters so like its cherry cousins, benefits from space and support.

    Given that your list contains so many unusual, rarely grown varieties, and since you have such limited space for growing them, I'm curious why you selected them? One of the best info sources on varieties is Tatiana's Tomatobase so worth checking out.

    http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Category:Tomato_Variety_List

    Dave

    PS: I've heard good things about the flavor of Rebekah Allen but as it is just another one of the many Rutgers strains I prefer to grow the original.

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  • cranefire
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thanks for the information. I know I can search each each varietal name, and have already spent hours doing so. But as you might imagine, not all the "hits" return content relevant to the question I'm asking here. And much of it, as interesting as it can be, is irrelevant to my present concern. (Fot instance, I'm not asking about disease resistance, appearance, productivity or any of the other topics commonly addressed in this forum.) So I'm asking here in order to obtain information more focused toward my specific concerns -- size and vigor -- and consolidated for the varieties I've specified. (Actually, I believe I've read your referenced comment(s) about "Ananas noire" already in the course of my "research" here.)

    As to why I want to grow these varieties and not known reliable performers, well...I've been growing those for twenty-five years, and I'm bored with them, and excited to try something new. It's only space constraints that have kept me from being more adventurous in the past. This year, I'm going all in, especially as local farmer's markets are increasingly offering the ones I've typically grown at seemingly ever-cheaper prices. So if my "experiments" fail, I can always get th Early Girls, Better Boys, Celebrities and various beefsteaks that are locally-grown at reasonable cost.


  • cranefire
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Oh, and thanks too for the link!

  • Labradors
    6 years ago

    Wow! It just goes to show how different tastes and experiences can be Dave. Whilst I agree with you about Ananas Noire (never again), I recently visited a friend in Florida and tasted Solar Flare. Definitely NOT a hard spitter (perhaps you should have waited for it to ripen some more {LOL}). I was even thinking of growing it myself this year.

    Riesentraube grew just fine for me in a confined area (a plant box cut into my deck). It does need room to sprawl, and was very productive

    Linda

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  • fungus
    6 years ago

    Riesentraube does indeed have short internodes so it's reasonably short. Haven't tried any of the rest. You can always try a few dwarves if you want somewhat more compact, plenty of them around nowadays, some very good tasting and productive.

    cranefire thanked fungus
  • Mokinu
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Ananas Noire was quite small when I grew it in SW Idaho in 2016, in a clay loam type soil in the ground. I may have watered it too much, for the variety. It didn't get any fruit.

    I've never grown Riesentraube, but Yellow Riesentraube was a medium-sized vining type for me in 2016. It didn't produce all season, and it wasn't early. I got maybe ~20-25 bunches of smallish cherry tomatoes on it, in a fairly short period (probably in the middle of September).

    cranefire thanked Mokinu
  • digdirt2
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    IMO "compact or vigorous" basically translates to determinate or indeterminate when it comes to tomatoes. Assuming good growing conditions, determinate varieties tend to be compact, indeterminate varieties tend to be vigorous vines. So you space and support accordingly. Perhaps a bit of over-simplification but there are few exceptions and those exceptions are generally due to different growing conditions.

    https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/2766765/what-is-the-difference-between-determinate-and-indeterminate-tomatoes

    Dave

  • cranefire
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    I'm aware of that basic distinction, but have also observed significant variability between indeterminate varieties that I've grown in the past, and rather consistently. I never grow determinates.


  • Mokinu
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    In that case, I really like Husky Cherry Red F1 for its dwarf indeterminate growth pattern (production only increases as the season progresses, it's heat/cold/drought-tolerant and it's early; it gets steadily bigger, too, but it's still not huge, and still has rugose foliage). We should have more (and larger) tomatoes like that. The fruit split easily and had a lot of seeds (which would squirt surprisingly far, in the desired location, if you squeezed them); it tasted like Roma. The F2+s I grew tasted better/sweeter/tangier, didn't split and had excellent shelf life, but had other differences, too (e.g. growth habit). I'm still growing those, and like them a lot. I think I'm on F5, this year.

    You might like a lot of the semi-determinate tomatoes out there, and some of the more prolific determinates (e.g. Sub Arctic Plenty).

    Black Bear didn't have a large plant for me (not small either), but it seems quite prolific, with large fruit, once it starts producing.

  • Mokinu
    6 years ago

    I like any growth pattern as long as it's prolific, but more compact plants are nice in a lot of ways.

  • cranefire
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    I'll take note of your comments, but for my purposes here I'm specifically seeking info on the nine varieties I've named in my original post. Thanks, though.

  • digdirt2
    6 years ago

    "As to why I want to grow these varieties and not known reliable
    performers, well...I've been growing those for twenty-five years, and
    I'm bored with them, and excited to try something new."

    That was my point in the original post. There is a whole world of different varieties between those old stand-bys you list and the far-out-in-left field unusual ones on your current list. With the exception of Rise, Solar, and Ananas few folks will have even heard of them much less grown them and be able to comment on them. When it comes to tomato seed selections Baker Creek has always had a strong lean toward the "unusual" so perhaps one of the better tomato seed suppliers could be a better source for you.

    For example: tomatogrowers.com has 11 pages of green varieties but Green Vernissage is not one of them. It has 2 pages of blush varieties but Napa Chardonnay Blush is not one of them. It has 10 different Indigo varieties but Indigo Kumquat is not one of them. See the pattern? And this is only one of the commonly used seed sources.

    In fact when one Googles the varieties you list in most cases Baker Creek is the ONLY source for them.

    So since you already have the seeds you may well be the first trial for many of them other than Baker Creek. I hope they work well for you and be sure to let us know how they turn out.

    Dave

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  • Labradors
    6 years ago

    I tasted Solar Flare this winter on a visit to a friend in Florida. I have not grown it myself and was tempted. It's supposed to be early, tasty and disease resistant. I would agree that it was tasty and it's also very striking to look at!


    Linda

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  • Labradors
    6 years ago

    What a GREAT post Tarolli! I couldn't agree with you more (and I also agree that Reisentraube didn't taste fantastic).

    Linda

  • Mokinu
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I agree that it can be hard to find good-tasting/performing true-to-type tomatoes if you're just picking random, unknown varieties (but I would go past that and say the same is true even for well-known varieties, and to some degree, and even for hybrids—although the odds of getting a vigorous, prolific, and resistant plant might be greatly increased with F1 hybrids, and taste is subjective and variable). I've probably had the most success (though far from ultimate success) with two types of tomatoes:

    1. Varieties they sell locally. It doesn't matter whether they're F1 hybrids or true-to-type varieties. They don't always perform as I'd like, but they do more often than other groups. These don't necessarily taste the best, but in my experience, they seem to have a higher percentage of varieties that produce a lot in more local conditions compared with stores online. I have had less than optimal experiences with locally sold varieties, too, though.

    2. Some I've found through growing maybe ~200 varieties.

    I like potent and/or acidic tomatoes, and most of the popular ones (especially if the fruit is large) are mild and a bit sweet (they'd probably need extra acid if you're a canner); plus, I prefer early tomatoes, and most popular ones are 80+ days; so, popularity isn't always a good judge of a good tomato for a particular person, in my opinion (but for most people in most popular tomato locations, it can probably be a lot more helpful). So, take yourself and your own preferences into account. You can get extra flavor and acid from tomatoes by using different soil / nutrient levels, and dry or wet farming though. Many varieties may produce less if dry farmed, but some seem to produce more. It's important to note that if I grew the same ~200 varieties in Texas, or even my neighbor's garden (which has pretty different soil), I'd probably have a completely different list of favorites (I'm in SW Idaho).

    No matter what tomatoes you get (with some exceptions, depending on your soil and climate), however, you'll want to treat them well for optimal results (especially the soil, IMO). Soil is extremely important as to the results you'll get. So are proper light levels for the variety. Watering, fertilizer and such aren't as important as sufficient organic matter, IMO (but they can be pretty important). I often garden without much organic matter, and I can see a big difference when I add extra. I usually don't cage my tomatoes, but I've noticed possible extreme improvements when I do cage my tomatoes and muskmelons.

    I also wanted to point out that Green Vernissage, though new to most people, is heavily reviewed on the Baker Creek site (so, there's a lot of perspective on it already). From what I've read, and experienced, it sounds like it's likely a good one for my garden; your garden may differ a lot, and expectations aren't always fulfilled (but you learn to see helpful hints after a while). Baker Creek has more product reviews than any other seed store I've examined, which is one reason they're my favorite seed store. They don't sell exclusively rare varieties, either (you just have to learn which is which if it matters to you). Even stores like Tomato Growers Supply sell rare varieties (just not as many). You have to be careful no matter where you shop, if you want perfection. One great thing about Baker Creek is they have more products than most stores (I don't just mean tomatoes). I only know a few with more (but there are some with more).

    I think I've only shopped at Tomato Growers once (I've shopped at a lot of places at least once), and got only two tomato varieties. 1. New Yorker V (I liked this reasonably and it was my niece's favorite for taste in 2017, which is saying something; I liked its taste a lot, but a similar tomato I prefered was Mountain Princess, granted Mountain Princess was on its second year and didn't do as well its first year, maybe due to watering differences). 2. Red Rocket (this didn't do extremely well on its first year in our garden—2017—but I've read it does very well for some); it did get a few later and smaller than hoped tomatoes, though, with regular tomato taste (but more preferable than some for sure).

  • Mokinu
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    One thing I will also say, is that I've had better experiences with online-store-bought seeds than traded seeds, on average (although some traded seeds have been very cool). And, different (not necessarily better/worse) experiences with some online stores than others.

    Despite what I said above, I still prefer to shop online for my seeds, for some reason, though. I haven't tried that many locally sold varieties compared with ones sold online. So, my experiences there may not be representative. But I'm not the only one who gets that impression.

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  • Mokinu
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    So, basically what I'm saying is, yes putting all your eggs in one basket with entirely new-to-you varieties is very risky, even if they're popular and even if they're hybrids—unless you don't have any old reliables—but you can have better odds with some things, and much better results with better tomato care.

    I could have better results with my own trials of new tomatoes, but I tend to look for ones that do well when they're not in the best conditions. If I pampered them all, they would be harder to spot. (And pampering can be expensive for some people: e.g. I don't have a horse for manure to compost, or other stuff like that. And 100 tomato cages comes to a hefty price, especially if they don't last many years.)

    With only a few plants, you've got a lot of advantages, in terms of care.

    I don't particularly plan to grow so many varieties every year forever. When I've found enough of the ones I like, I'll probably stick with those, and my breeding projects, for the most part (unless I get more land, and maybe also start a seed store or something, some day). Then again, it's addictive.

    One thing you can do is ask the locals what they grow and how it does for them, if you need ideas.

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  • cranefire
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Wow, thanks very much everyone for your very substantive comments and your advice. So, although I hadn't said so, was planning to grow at least a couple of tried-and-true varieties along with the "weird" ones I've chosen from Baker Creek. But considering the cautionary comments about putting all my tomatoes in a single basket, maybe I'll grow a couple more of the reliables and save a couple of the experimentals for next year.

    I'm really not too concerned about the labor requred, because I'll only be growing 8-10 plants in total. AND I fully intend to "pamper" all of them. I add a several-inch layer of compost in my garden every spring before planting, and add a little more at points later in the growing season. I use no addtional fertilizers except for a sprinking of GardenTone around each plant. All of my tomatoes are caged or staked, depending upon their habit (one of the reasons I was asking about the relative vigor of the varieties' growth). I've been pretty successful with these methods in the past. I also don't expect the productivity I've seen with the regionally popular varieities. But, as I commented earlier, there are a number of farmers' markets here that offer the fruit of locally-grown varieties at very reasonable. cost, amd I'm not too bothered by the prospect of having to support my local farmers if my yield comes up short. And I'm looking forward to more exiting colors and forms that might compensate for the lower yield. But an 80% reduction in yield, if it were to be that high, would be disappointing. So maybe I'll start some heldover seeds of varieties I grew successfully last year, and save a few of the Baker Creek varieties for next.

    Schule, I'm glad to hear your opinions about Baker Creek, as I felt I was taking a bit of a risk with this company. (I'd always ordered from Johnny's in the past for varieties I've grown from seed.) The Baker Creek catalog is so stunning, and their photos and descriptions so enticing, that it has occurred to me even before I place an order that I might be succumbing to hyperbolic representations. But I did read dozens of company reviews and most were quite positive, so I decided to give them a try. I also read hundreds of their customers' reviews about particular varieties they offer before I made my selections. The Green Vernissage was one of the "free seed" varieties they sent with my order, and it is one that I'll try to grow.

    One thing I've noticed here on the Growing Tomatoes forum is that quite often there's a lot of disagreement concerning the flavor of a given variety. I realize that climate, soil and other environmental factors have an effect on flavor, as does one's own taste receptors. Riesentraube is one example of contested flavor merit (even here within this thread). I believe the variety was locally developed here in Pennsylvania, and grown and liked by Pennsylvania Germans (Pennsylvania Dutch), so I'm going to gamble that it's suitable for my own Pennsylvania garden conditions and has at least a fair chance of yielding a flavorful fruit. It's interesting that you mention the kumquat series, Tarolli. I was unaware of its poor reputation before I ordered seeds for Indigo Kumquat last year, but when I did learn of it, I decided to give the kumquat a try anyway. Well, it turned out to be the outstanding star performer of last year's garden, superior in every way to any cherry-size tomato I'd ever grown before -- rich and fruity flavor, hyperproductive, the very last to succumb to end-of-season diseases by a full month, and gorgeous! It's the only one on my list above that I've grown before, and I'll definitely be planting it again this year. It's also very vigorous, by the way -- tall and sprawling. So, dunno. I guess one needs to consider assessments concerning flavor (as well as, to a lesser extent, productivity and disease resistance) as subject to variability. Or be able to trial hundreds of varieties as you and Schule and others here have done! I didn't know that Celebrity was determinate, though. That does explain why production fell off a lot after midseason.

    Thanks again, everyone. Best of luck with the upcoming season. I'm looking forward to reports from you about how your plants are doing, and how those tomatoes taste! ;)

  • beesneeds
    6 years ago

    I think it's great that you want to grow weird stuff cranefire. I do it myself. I have to qualify that with the fact that I live in an area that has a lot of roadside stands and markets, and good tomatoes are cheap and easy to find. Some of the kinds of workhorses or tried and true mentioned in the thread I can get in a range of prices depending on who has what. If I get a real fail in the garden, I can pay 5 bucks for a 10 pound tug or a half bushel depending. Some of the extra-fancy ones sell for 2-3 bucks for a quart or two if I want. I don't often need to buy tomatoes. I do sometimes pick some up to run taste test against what I grow.

    So I got room to experiment, heh. And I like doing it. I tend to grow 6-8 varieties a year, a plant or few depending on what varieties I choose and how the garden plans go. Mostly for processing, but some fresh eating. Over the years there's usually been a gem or two every year worth keeping in the seed collection, and some just fine/ok but not spectacular enough to keep in the collection. Only a couple truly meh, those were fails through all the years. A couple that were extra good enough that I used up a round of seed and had to find/order more.

    I'm sorry that I haven't grown any of the varieties you are trying. I feel your frustration in finding growth habit information. Quite often it isn't the fruit information I want, it's the plant growth habit I want. Quite often I find common tomato plant descriptions leave a lot to be desired, let alone the weird stuff.

    I don't know if you tried this yet but I've found sometimes it's helpful to use images. Key term search your plant name and "plant" or "growth habit" in google images search. This can sometimes turn up folks blogs that have grown the plants and post about it. I've turned up a goodly handful of odd blog sites that didn't turn up as much with regular google search this way.

    I hope you keep up with this thread through the growing season and let us all know how these plants turn out :)

    cranefire thanked beesneeds
  • cranefire
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Thanks for your comments and your very useful search suggestion, beesneeds. I'll try that! So it seems we both "get it" -- one can experiment to one's heart's content without fear of "failure" if one is lucky to have abundant sources for locally-grown, inexpensive tomatoes should one's own selections not peform well. Thanks for the encouragement, and I'll certainly send updates as the season progresses. I hope you and others will, too. :)

  • beesneeds
    6 years ago

    I do get it. In years past living in other places I did concentrate much more on the more mainstream tomatoes because I didn't have so much local market luxury available. But now I got the luxury to experiment. And really, I'm only growing for 2-4 people worth of tomatoes. I do have one tomato I grow every year- Dwarf Wild Fred. It's the house favorite black tomato. I do have a round of "compare the gems" coming up in the next year or two.