And that was precisely my point.......if you plant these thugs in areas of you garden where they do not receive their ideal growing conditions, they are significantly less thuggish in their behaviour :-) And any plant is only worth the effort one wants to put into maintaining it. I never encouraged anyone to rush out and plant any of these but it is clear from the responses here that in some cases, these plants are not as aggressive or as widely spreading for everyone and some are more than willing to pick and choose their battles and provide the periodic maintenance necessary to grow something they really like but that may not have the best garden manners.

It is always a matter of choice :-)

Yes I guess you're right :-). As with most things in life, careful planning can prevent a lot of headaches down the road.

I had Ajuga reptans but to many dry years wiped it out. I think I have one plant that seeded itself last year. They bloom with the columbines and make great companion plants with them. The clear and bright hues are so innocent together.

radiantpoppy, I tried that with mint; it didn't work. The mint just crawled over the raised edge and proceeded on its merry way!

To the question of whether thugs and invasives can be controlled, can someone tell me if japsnese shrub honeysuckle is corrigible? I’ve been working hard to get rid of them but wonder if I might just keep a few. Does anyone prune them in a way that makes them contributing members of a civilized landscape? I do love the scent.

Globe Flower (Trollius europeaeus). The most invasive plant I have ever encountered.

It's amazing to hear T europaeus described as invasive. It is increasingly rare in its natural habitat and verging on extinction in the British Isles.

Kitasei, the problem with Japanese shrub honeysuckle is that birds adore the berries and spread the seeds far and wide. Please choose another shrub.

Of course, and a good reminder that an invasive may be controllable within one's own landscape while wreaking havoc beyond it. I would put barberry in this category - yes, including the yellows and reds. And ivy that has topped trees and is flowering.

Kitasei, you only need to drive along the freeways or walk through a woods or along a creek, or even in my suburban neighborhood, here in central and southern Ohio, and notice how the roadsides and woods are choked with bush honeysuckle! Your question would be answered! Birds love the berries, but I've read that they are actually rather low in nutrition for them.

Star of Bethlehem, wood violets, morning glories, orange ditch lily (hemerocallis fulva), arum italicum, and vinca minor. We are madly pulling Star of Bethlehem as once the foliage dies back they are difficult to find let alone pull out. Arum ditto, tho we will see the berries later on which gives us a 2nd chance.

I am in 8A, southeast Virginia.

Although in casual conversation garden thugs are referred to as invasive, they aren't the same thing. Thugs will spread in your garden and perhaps into the neighbor's garden, but invasives are spread via wind, water, or animals far and wide. Even if you keep a handle on invasives in your own space, they will continue to spread unchecked into other areas, particularly wild and untended areas. On my wooded property, I have common buckthorn, Japanese barberry, shrub honeysuckles, Japanese knotweed, and Asian bittersweet, all of which are listed invasives in my area and all of which I spend significant portions of my "gardening" time fighting. Invasives tend to be region specific, so here English ivy rarely survives, even if coddled, but in the PNW it is a significant invasive. Japanese barberry is the opposite. So it is a responsibility we all have as gardeners to take the time to investigate whether a plant is invasive, such as purple loosestrife in wetlands of the NE US, or if it is only a garden thug before planting.

I saw kudzu for the first time last summer when I went to southern TN to watch the eclipse. That must be the epitome of noxious invasive -- truly astonishing! Although if Japanese bush honeysuckle were a vine, I believe it would be equally so.

Mexican Evening Primrose and Wisteria drove me from my first home. Now, I can't seem to grow mint, but ornamental oregano is a bit of a thug for me.

Grief, I would be prepared to go to great lengths if only trollius europaeus to even survive, let alone spread. This ranunculus lover has just been triumphantly grinning on discovering my seeds of meadow buttercup (ranunculus acris citrina) are germinating....and my enormous Madeira buttercup survived our abnormally chilly spring.

I am kinda working towards the point where I only do reduction gardening (at least in the allotment) and usually consider volunteer seeding to be an advantage more than a nuisance - yea, even the hated mallow (immediately identifiable so hoed before taproot madness arrives).

My garden is all about self seeding and selective reduction. My Small Palafoxia (not so small in form) is coming up EVERYwhere and I am leaving some and pulling like crazy. I will have a beautiful crop of pink when it is 100 out in August. I am yanking its out from around my cactus and treasured Mohave milkweed and other low clumpers. I weeded out the bluebonnets in the same way. One has to ride herd over those pesky annuals.

Location, location, location...

four o'clocks, trumpet vine, bermuda grass and mint.....at the moment the bane of my life is the bermuda...

At an old house in Austin, it took three years form me to get rid of this old type of large growing white with dark pink throated 4 o'clocks. Some were 5'tall. They had roots like fat thighs and almost as big and long. I was digging in a clay and cobble river cut bank. It was tough going.

wantanamara, I have palafoxia coming up thick like turf, the same way rose moss does. Its coming up wherever I had a plant last year, solidly covering spots about 4ft wide, but not all over the yard and yep, there's cactus to deal with. They are tiny right now but when they get a bit taller I plan to aggressively thin it because like you said, Small Palafoxia is not so small despite the name. Its in gravel which makes thinning tiny plants too tedious. Still, I love the plant and think its worth the effort.

I threw out some palafoxia seeds among some bluestem out back last fall but don't know if its come up or not. I don't think I'd mind it if those seeded thickly next year, I bet nature would sort it out judging by what you see in the wild, there's always what looks like thick vegetation in early spring under the dry stuff from the year before but once summer hits, nature seems to step in and it ends up with a good balance. I sowed a lot of liatris seed there too and noticed a lot of seedlings. I thought it would be pretty to have little blue stem + liatris + palafoxia because its a big area in my "blue garden" and its on a dry slope where its a bit of a struggle for many plants.

The good thing about the palafoxia form and cactus is that the palafoxia has a taller airy form so should not smother cactus like blue bonnets will. Watchoutfor that stuff. That was an expensive lesson.

Wait just a second! You have palafoxia seed? From where did you get it? I can't find a source outside of my typical and he's been out for a couple of years.

We must do swapsies, Mara - palafoxia for some pink long headed poppies (have been craving palafoxia for ages). End of summer - envelopes out.

Gardening in the Seattle area...Where to begin?

Robinias except for Frisia, Symphytum (except for Hidcote Pink which is a ground cover in an area where it can’t escape and is blooming now), Siberian Squilla, Lamiastrum galeobdoblon, Latium Orval’s, Phlox paniculata, Campanula persicifolia, linaria, Hypericum perforatum, Aegopodium, Geranium phaem, Japanese anemone, Epimedium sulphreum, Lonicera pileata, Alstroemeria “Laura”, sweet woodruff, Filipendula rubra and ulterior, Star of Bethlehem, Persicaria polymorpha.....and that is just off the top of my head!

I find many plants are well behaved until you are lulled into a sense of security. It is only then that you discover in the absence of your attention, they have gobbled up the path, established themselves yards away from where you planted them or hid for a season in a prized peony.

Paloxifoxia callosa grows wild in on my land . I have encouraged it in some granite sand amended land and it has really taken off. I obtained some P . hookeriana seed and I am just this second planting out the little guys into my garden. It is a toss up on that one. They like deep sand in the wild. Seed of the small Palafoxia will be available in september/october. I don't save them. I will forget so get a hold of me then.

Camp , I will send you an email. Rob333, you can PM me with an email and address, but remind me when it is time. My mind is rather faulty.

The filthy (and immortal) acanthus mollis (and all its spiky cousins).

Can really appreciate Gardengirl's comments on Knautia macedonica and Camp's on Acanthus mollis.

Found that K. macedonica, especially in dryer sandier conditions, is a very aggressive spreader by seed. Just gave up on it.

Now keep plants like Acanthus mollis in out-of-the-way places under confinement. Creative, Camp. I've never seen "filthy" and "immortal" applied to plants before. Quite persuasive!

I like Acanthus mollis. They seem to be well behaved here in Austin but they do not like where I am now. Maybe I should try again now that I have been improving some of the soil in the shady parts.They disappear in the summer because of our excessive heat but then return. Maybe they are humbled on a yearly basis here and that is enough to clean up their Filthy acts. Nothing like a yearly reminder of their mortality for keeping them inbounds.

Oh no! Not Knautia macedonica!

What about monarda? I just bought 2 pots and really like those red flowers, but they are in the mint family. Anyone consider it a thug? I’m in zone 8, central Mississippi. Thank you.

Certainly an interesting one in our location, Mary.

Have (?)/had an older red cultivar, 'Gardenview Scarlet' which has been one of the fastest runner (spreading) perennials we've ever kept. One thing about this light-weight thug (?) though, is it's very easy to pull out.

Was continually pulling some out each fall (small garden and to maintain perennial plant diversity) but one year seemed I have pulled out too much. Happily, however, got more several years later.

Still, personally, I love the colour and the July height.

Mary Johnson, in my garden it seems to depend on the variety of monarda. Purple Rooster has stayed fairly contained; Jacob Kline (I think, or another very tall red) has spread enthusiastically; the white one and two "petite" varieties have struggled to come back.

I would also ask this question in the Southern and Gulf Coast gardening forms since things act differently in different places. My suspicion is that giving the monarda plenty of room and maybe a container barrier if they are aggressive.

As above, Mary, am sure that the actual cultivar concerned and the location both influence spreading. Even things like the way the soil in a garden is maintained and the closeness of perennial plantings could be factors.

Have also maintained the species and numbers of cultivars over time. 'Jacob Cline' has held its own in our garden, but we've perhaps succeeded in largely hemming it in with tougher perennials.

My experience too; have lost all the petite ones planted. The species Monarda, I'm familiar with, spread, presumably prospecting out soil nutrients. Perhaps horticultural selection for smaller and more compact cultivars reduces the survivability of such plants.

Thank you for the good advice! My 4” pots came from the rack outside Kroger and the tag only says “Bee Balm”. The picture shows mixed colors. After reading the kind advice given I think I will put these in pots and look for some of the named cultivars mentioned.

sunnyborders that picture is gorgeous! Exactly what I pictured in my mind that I want! Makes me want to just go for it...it wouldn’t be the first time I made an oops.

Mary, the other (older) red Monarda cultivar we've had (about same size) was 'Cambridge Scarlet'. Felt, however, that 'Gardenview Scarlet' was more powdery mildew-resistant.

Certainly haven't had a problem with powdery mildew and 'Gardenview Scarlet', in our location and with my style of mixed perennial gardening.

Place it with some room in your mixed perennial bed.

Thanks sunnyborders, hopefully I can find Gardenview Scarlet on-line. My zinnias start getting powdery mildew in August here in our heat and humidity and I usually have to pull them up. So any plant that has a little resistance would be a plus. This is great information, I really appreciate the help. Wontonamara I can picture them mixed in with the perennials, will post pic when they get going.

Cercis (or should I call you redbud instead?) I can't believe phlox paniculata is invasive for you! If you're planning on ripping any of it out this year I would gladly take it. I can't get enough of that stuff.

I've never grown persicaria polymorpha, but it looks like it forms a nice clump. I bet it would look nice at the back of a border.

Oh yes, spreads like crazy in my Seattle garden. And yes Persicaria polymorpha was one of my favorite plants in the kgarden until it started showing up yards away. It also gets mammoth and is not for a small garden. I have quite a large garden and I ended up taking out one. The other I cut back to the ground in late June to keep it a little bit smaller. I will probably be taking it out next year as it shades too many other plants in the vicinity.

Funny how plants change their personalities in different environments.

P.S. these have been in my garden for 10 years....

Yeah, I wouldn't have Phlox paniculata in my garden on a bet!! Spreads like crazy. Nasty stuff - always mildews, insipid flowers and I dislike the smell - and is difficult to get rid of.

But it is interesting how different our tastes and experiences are :-) I professed a love of gooseneck loosestrife, which many detest. And I adore Monarda 'Jacob Cline' (and so do my hummingbirds!!) and go out of my way to accommodate it in my garden. btw, it has excellent mildew resistance!!

I also stay away from anything that is labeled persicaria, tovara or polygonum - IME all are dangerous plants.

mmm, ventured forth onto persicaria world myself this year...with persicaria campanulatus in my shade bed at the woods and the incredibly fast growing annual persicaria tinctoria (for my new dyers garden). At least one of them is a frost tender annual but yep, I am also normally circumspect about these and polygonum. Tovara I have not heard of.

Urk...on googling, I find I have - not only heard of it but grown the bugger!. Runaway persicaria Red Dragon, finally eliminated from under my redbud.

Camp, tovara was part of the major polygonum name change a few years back (decade?) that I think has now been more or less discontinued as an accepted genus name. Along with fallopia, which I should have also included in my list of things to avoid. Let's just say that if it is part of the Polygonaceae, it is NOT going to be included in my garden!!

Re Phlox paniculata : have never had the species (wild type) in my gardens and have always removed the few seedlings which came from the 30 or so cultivars I've planted and maintained over numbers of years. Garden phlox cultivars require some amount of maintenance, including regular division, at least in my experience. There are several reason to deadhead them, but an obvious one is to prevent any seeding. Any offspring, I've seen in other gardens, had the flower-colour of the species, typically a washed-out magenta.

In my experience, maintaining healthy garden phlox is part of avoiding powdery mildew here.

I just planted straight species Monarda fistulosa and Pycnanthemum incanum, hoping for them to fill in large areas.

Cheers GG. I finished my formal horticultural education a few years ago (2003-2007) and have often failed to keep up with botanical nomenclature (only just getting round to lamprocapnos instead of dicentra and enjoying annoying horty friends by referring to the ancient montbretia and even megaseas). So very handy to have someone still active in the nursery trade on the forum.

Aaargh - fallopia! Noooooooo.

Received gooseneck loosestrife and obedient plant from an acquaintance early in my gardening years. Toward the end of the summer was amazed how well they did. Then I read about them being invasive. Dug around a little bit and couldn't believe the thick tangled mass of roots. Scared the crap out of me and dug them up on the spot. Glad I did. Anything that pulls out easily doesn't bother me. I love bee balm even though it travels...easy to remove.

Ditch Lillies, the spawn of Satan. Former owner of my property thought it was neat to plant them all over the back yard. Not. We dug, sprayed, and covered. they stayed gone for about 2 years. Each year, I dig the few that popped up. This year they are back en mass. If only they were money...................