I am so sorry, I posted my post before I saw Angela and Memo's follow up! Angela and Memo, thank you SO much for such a detailed answers. Angela, I am definitely going to make the fridge even with the counter, I can easily lose that space in the pantry, that is the best idea in the world and I never in a million years would have thought to do that on my own. Right now I have a 30" wide fridge, which is next to new (stainless, freezer bottom) but it is not as wide as many I see as my current 45 year old house couldn't accommodate any bigger. I am wondering, I guess I should plan for a 36" deep space because in the future, I will want a bigger fridge, I do know that. I will have to make my fridge area extra large and have a smaller fridge for the moment (but this fridge could last 15 years!!). I'll try and figure that out. Re: stacking washer dryers - I am actually making 2 laundry areas - one in the garage for business (see previous post) and the other on the second level (see below my second level floor plans - original and changed). I will think about the stacking though at either location. But having a laundry and utility sink in the garage kind of solves memo's thoughts about muddy kids. In a pinch I could have them strip down there and keep some extra clothes in that room. Memo, my region is really not a farming area at all. There are no farms around for at least 30 min away, and even then only a couple of high end "heirloom variety and herb" crop farms. We are in the mountains, no room for farms! There may be hobby farms, but the community is not really a farming community. It's more of a tourist village, it's a skiing community in the winter. In the summer, there are lakes all around. Not saying kids won't find messes in the country, oh they will! But my garage laundry and sink should take care of that in a pinch. I am still debating your garage mud room though! Angela, I will def. think about a pocket door for the mud area, but I don't think company (except my kid's friends) will come through the back (garage) way. And that's why I want the bathroom out of the mud room, to keep people out as much as possible! Angela, I really like your idea about reducing the pantry size to accommodate a closet or storage area of some sort on the north wall of the pantry. Thank you for that. I had a feeling the pantry was a bit spacious, but I just thought it's be a great place to put things like a vaccuum, brooms etc in the middle. But that does make getting to the pantry items more difficult. I think your plan is more efficient. Re: Garage space. I reduced it to 2 bay partially because of the laundry room, but also I NEED to have an exterior pedestrian door enter on the same east side as the garage doors. They left NO room in the plan for an exterior door on that side! I can't put an exterior door facing the front house side, looks bad and confuses people as to which door to enter (hate that). I can't do it on the south (backyard) wall either as that is just too far to walk to the back and then walk back across the whole garage again to enter the house, crazy. Plus snow may be there in the winter. So hence, 2 bays + a pedestrian 3 ft entrance door. I know they sell garage doors with a entry door in them, and I may look at that option for the single 3rd bay, but since I am "ruining" the 3 car garage anyway with laundry and workshop/storage, I just thought I'd eliminate the garage door as well. Our ATV can scoot in there from the the 2 door garage. Plus, a 3 bay is not common in my area, just 2 bays or even one bay. The development where we are moving to (42 homes) is pretty diverse and we all have our own builders, people have different styles - no cookie cutter homes here. RE: Double pocket doors with glass for the office. I have a single pocket door with glass that is SUPER HEAVY to push open and closed. I struggle to open it, and it was a new high quality track. I think it is the sheer weight of the pine door and the glass. I don't know if that is typical, but I just wanted to avoid all of that by having regular swing doors. If I can be reassured that there is a way to do this without that heavy pull, I would be into it. I know they sell frosted fake glass (I have that too) that is lighter, but the look is very fake and light doesn't seem to come through it normally. I am open to suggestions. I was also "thinking" of installing glass on either side of the french doors for an even more open look, and I couldn't do that with a pocket door. I am going to work through that idea about using that space by the stairs where the window is to add to the bathroom, great idea again, I will draw it out. I hate loosing that window though, I like windows everywhere! I don't think I want to add a door on the sunroom side though, I personally don't like jack and jill bathrooms and I really plan the sunroom to be a very occasional use bedroom if at all on the main level as I already will have a guest bedroom upstairs. It's really just more to have a full bath on the main level. Love the idea of the ??? as a linen nook!! Problem solved! Or I tuck linens in the foyer closet in a tupperware bin and make a nice niche out of the ???. I really want this to be an occasional use "emergency" full bathroom... But time will tell, you never know about things until you really live in a house. Here is my second floor plan and the original. I will try and darken it in the next day or so.

Hi, I'm planning a 3-fixture 5'x8' bath in my basement and having trouble envisioning the best layout for the drain and vent lines. It would help to have a few basic questions answered it possible. Here are my criteria and questions: - Intended layout is lav/toilet/bath along the left wall in order looking from door to back wall. The existing stack/drain goes through the back wall and down the RIGHT edge of the space. Waste flow is from back of room to front. - Existing path in ceiling for venting is in approx center of room. - Would also like to stub-out a sink on the opposite side of wet wall for future kitchenette in that room. - When burying the waste lines, is it better to arrange them in series tying in each fixture as it snakes to the drain or to extend each of fixture outputs to series of "branching points" where they combine with wyes and proceed towards the building drain, or does it depend...? - If my "in-floor" fixtures (bathtub and toilet) are nearest the wall opposite the intended drain, how can I safely tie in vents? I have to have a min-45 degree kick-up on on a wye on the horizontal to tie in a vent, but if it's several feet away from the wet wall, that won't help. As I understand it, It's both not good and not permissible to have a section of vent buried on the horizontal. -Once the vents are tied in (somewhere), I'd like to combine them and have one path going up to the existing chase above to reach the attic. Is there anything other than necessary diameter and fixtures served when combining them? Using a single wall for most/all of the venting would be advantageous but I'm having trouble envisioning the best layout to do that. I've attached a rough layout o the fixtures below and would love some input from folks who have done this before. BTW, I'm covered by 2012 IPC. Dan

(tl;dr, OT!) David, You're probably right. I come from an industry where the angle of light is one of the primary considerations (live performance lighting). There are a lot of basics there that seem to get, at best, ignored in home lighting, or worse, aren't even considered. How the fixture looks in the room is of utmost important, with no consideration for how it makes everything else in the room look (including people). Of course, I mean _both_ are important, how the fixture looks aesthetically as well as the light it provides. In terms of angle, I read one thread about under-cabinet lighting (it took me a while to figure out what "UCL" meant) people discussed about the lighting needing to be toward the face of the cabinet vs against the backsplash/wall. From a casual perspective I can see why most would think that. What that doesn't address is that down light can make seeing what one is cutting difficult to see because of the shadows cast by one's hands. Personally, I prefer against the wall/backsplash tilted forward a bit. That gets the light more under my hands, still lights the whole counter space, and can highlight the backsplash (assuming one has a backsplash that benefits from being highlighted). I also prefer sidelight (sconces, table/floor lamps, or low other fixtures) for rooms where people gathering is the primary function. It is a far more flattering light for people than can/pot/down lights. But that has never, that I've seen, been suggested on Houzz. I could be wrong. Maybe it has been brought up here in the GW forums. I've only recently started frequenting the forums. In another thread a while ago the discussion was about lighting a more sculptural piece of wall art, which had a head as a prominent part of the work. Everybody was suggesting down light. While, yes, that would accent the texture. But it would also make the face look garish. I suggest something more from the front and a bit off axis, to give it more natural, defining shadows vs deep shadows under the eyes, nose, and chin. I get it, I suppose. It is easier to talk about how a light fixture looks rather than how than how the light from it makes everything else look. But I don't think one has to hire a lighting designer or be a master electrician just to understand some basics. They just need to be thought of. Even little things like how a more diffused light can actually _look_ brighter than a clear glass, exposed light bulb simple because the shadows are softer. Ah, well. Thanks! Joe

Hi all, thanks for the inputs and perspectives, definitely appreciate Y’all taking the time to help me think through this! I’ll post a picture of the downstairs layout when I’m at home And try to get a better picture with dimensions added. But for now I’ll speak a little more to the background: This home was built in 1977- it shares a wall (the right side) with ahome that’s the mirror image of it. In fact every home in this neighborhood is the exact same layout so character isn’t much of a concern here @cpartist. This is one of the cheapest areas to live in the city and anyone Purchasing isn’t expecting custom cabinets, high end bathrooms etc. that said 2 showers seems to be a huge perk just from talking to people in the neighborhood with family’s and their issues with the home. When I labeled master bedroom and bathroom, I use that term as the owners bathroom and en-suite, please don’t think of it as what a luxury master bedroom/bathroom might be. This is a modest home and will have modest renovations. It’s just the largest bedroom of the three. There is a closet in the bottom right above the stairs and it will still be a closet in the large bedroom- no plans to change that except to maybe add built in shelving in the future. @misecretary The furniture in the third bedroom represents an office/music room because that’s what it will be used for initially. It already is pretty small so I don’t want to make it any smaller Even if the hallway includes wasted space (Plus the added expense of moving the entire wall, that’s just how it’s set up now). @zannej thanks! Lots of good input and dimensions to consider. I’ll post more info tonight, the plumbing goes directly beneath the toilet. the kitchen is in the top right corner under the third bedroom. I have run this by my realtor as well, moving forward we’re going with a 2 bathroom plan. While I realize a big con means smaller living spaces and smaller bathroom, here is our reasoning for sticking to the 2 bathroom idea: 1- Useful now, trying to coordinate the shower use with people who get ready around the same time is Not convenient (that second bedroom will also be occupied) 2- Useful in resale -I’ve spoken with my realtor who has provided input based on this neighborhood and the type of buyer it would best market to - it seems most people who have kids in the home will greatly appreciate a second bathroom, from a utilization perspective not luxury space -This is a modest neighborhood and a modest starter home, anyone looking for luxury space and finishes would likely not be moving into this neighborhood Our scope is focused on adding a second functioning bathroom and keeping most of the footprint as close to what it is because a) added cost to make big footprint changes and b) we aren’t making changes for a forever home perfect layout, just trying to improve within reason and get experience (very likely we’ll be renting or selling within 5 to 10 years). There’s a lot of wishlist items that will have to wait (bigger closets new kitchen cabinets etc)