G & S Floor Service - are you still happy with Pallman Magic? I'm considering this product for maple flooring that I'm having refinished. I have no pets or kids but am a messy cook.

Yes, magic oil on white oak floors, still looks great. With maple the water spotting, prints and dirt will be very noticeable. Did a job for a client, they could not deal with the cleaning. I then applied X- bond coat and X-98 on top for them For the easy cleaning.

Thank you. Have you heard anything about a product called Vesting?

Never heard of Vesting finishing products. Have not seen it in my area.

You may want to look at Ciranova Titan hard wax oil. Very easy to apply and more chemical and wear resistant than Pallmann's Magic Oil.

Thanks. We are having it Professionally done but still are educating ourselves on products. One uses the Pallmans and another the Vesting. Per the guy we interviewed, he said Vesting is new to the US, 6 yrs, and only has one distributor at this time out of NY. He has used it for 2 yrs but we felt it was more of an advantage for him to use due to the curing time as he didn't flaunt it as a product that would be more advantageous over lets say Pallman. I'm going to look at the Ciranova. If I hire the guy that uses the Pallman, would asking him to use Ciranova offer him any different challenges than what he is use to? Do you use the Ciranova?

One other question you may be able to help us with. This is the first non- oak floor we've ever have dealt with and we just purchased this house. One of the Professionals was telling us that the current dark swirls we are seeing throughout the flooring but in different rooms are due to a bad sanding and the stain going more into those spots. The other guy told us that it is the nature of the wood grain. We also discovered from one of the guys that Grade 1-2 was laid in some rooms and Grade 2-3 in others, he couldn't quite get a handle on the exact grade, but either way, they both have those swirls. Thanks for you insight. Greatly appreciate it.

If, your Pallmann guy knows how to roll on poly. He will like Ciranova Titan. Roll it on and come back the next day And do it again. No need to clean off like all other oil systems. If, you want color use their magic oil or Unico oil, then top it off with Titan. If, you want a aged look use their reactive stains With your choice of oils.

post a picture of the swirls and dark spots.

Next time I'm there, I'll take photos. Thanks.

G & S Floor Service- we hired the Pallmann wood flooring guy and the completed floor has gritty and smooth areas along with areas that are dull compared to shinier areas. He's been trying to figure out the cause for the past 2 weeks with no luck.

He sent me an email today and this is a portion of it.

I have walked through my sanding, popping and finishing process. He (Pallman Sales Rep) has spoken to his chemist and he thinks that the oil didn’t have an even absorption rate. They also think that it could be because I used denatured alcohol instead of water to pop the floor. I have used denatured alcohol to pop Pallman floors for nearly two years now and haven’t had a problem. I just finished another Pallman floor and did the same process and I’ve had no issues. The finish is smooth everywhere. (referring to the other job). And the finish is smooth is a lot of the areas of your floor (no it isn't). I simply want to know what caused this, how to fix it and how to prevent it happening in the future. I also tried sanding off, popping the grain with water and reapplying the oil in a closet(I still have some of the original batch I made) and I feel it is more blotchy than the rest of the room. I think we should resand the floor. I think that the finish formula should be changed slightly and or we change products

G & S- any thoughts.

Can be several causes.

Most common is uneven sanding, the rough spots are from a coarser grit, shiny spots are finer sanding. What is the sanding sequence, specifically the final sanding?

Denatured alcohol is a no-no. Alcohol will thin the oil. I would not use that to pop the grain. It's also, flammable, too risky to use indoor in a large volume. If, you are doing a color, use water and allow it to dry completely. One hour minimum, overnight if, needed. There should be no visible wet spots. Neutrals do not require water popping.

It's possible the product is old and expired but, highly unlikely.

Post images of the problem areas.

P.S. I want to add, the shiny spots can be finish that was not cleaned off.

G & S Floor Service Met with the flooring guy today. He seems to know what he is doing as he talked us through it. He has tried about 8 different things that Pallman suggested and he did several other things on his own with no luck. In one of our closets he used water and it came out very splotchy even though he made it a multiple day process. He is suggesting that he sand off the hard wax and we change to Rubio which he has used in the past before he started using Pallman. Ours is maple which he said he has worked with before with Pallman and hasn't had an issue. Positives & negatives with Rubio. We are a family of 2 and no pets.

The problem is not the finish. It is the wood. maple is difficukt to stain. Combine that with a oil finish, more difficult.

Use a similar color pre-color or reactive stain then apply your magic oil or Rubio. The precolor and reactive stain are both water base. So, it will automatically pop the grain. Allowing the oil to penetrate deep. Using the same color will reduce the blotchy appearance.

I questioned him that Rubio seems to be a higher maintenance oil and he suggest I look at Loba Impact oil. Blotchiness was only in closet where he sampled using water instead of the denatured alcohol he was using all over which Pallman approved when he started using their product. The big issue is we have some rooms that have a nice sheen and others that don't have it and others that have a combination. He went through an array of things that Pallman suggested and ones that he tried on his own but hasn't had any success in getting a consistent sheen throughout. He mixes one big batch so he is using the same throughout. He seems to be pretty adamant that it isn't a grit/ sanding/buffing issue. Though there is round circle buff marks here and there on the floors which he said that meets "standards" for hard wax as long as I can't see them 10' away. I guess anything I see closer is acceptable?

Redo closet with alcohol, then focus on making the sheen even.

Uneven sheen: Use Pallmann's clean and prep, then re-apply the oil. Be sure to remove all excess oil. You can use it as spot fix. You do not need to do entire floor.

Sanding marks should not be visible two feet away from a standing position.

I still believe that sanding has something to do with the problem you're having.

G & S Floor Service My partner talked to the Loba sales rep who our flooring guy told us to contact as he has a relationship with him and suggested Loba as another product for us to consider. The rep has 25 yrs of flooring experience including working on floors himself. He is willing to work side by side with our contractor and after he was told our problems he, too, feels it is a sanding issue and will talk to our guy about it. He feels that we won't have issues with the floor when they are done and since we want to keep our project on schedule we feel a bit more confident going forward in this direction. He also talked us through the penetrating stain vs a hard wax. Do you feel one is better than the other?

If, the Loba rep will help guide the contractor. I would do that. The contractor will have a resource or someone with more training that he would listen and take advice from. And perhaps recommend him to take a sand and finish class to polish up on his skills. We all need to, regardless of, how many years of experience we have. I, myself will do so every chance i have a available. There are a lot of products out there to learn and keep up to date with.

Regarding the stain versus oil, it depends on the look and performance you're trying to achieve. If, you want a stained raw wood look feel. Hard wax oil is the product you want to use. For more protection but a plastic look, use a film finish.

You can use Loba Intensive stain, which is a sealing stain. It has the same color pallettes as Impact oil with the advantage of being able to apply Supra AT over it.

You still need to correct the sanding first. The product is not the issue. A bad sanding job will still make the best product look and perform like crap.

Post pictures of the problem areas.

G & S Floor Service The fun continues! So the floors were resanded and now we have this mess

throughout. For lack of a better word, the floors look cloudy and dirty. Used the Lobo Impact Oil. Can you give me an idea what is causing this and if there is a solution such as using the Supra AT over it? Not getting help from Lobo sales rep and flooring guy has gone MIA so trying to figure out the cause and any solution so we are prepared going forward with what we are dealing with. TIA.

Photo - Google Photos · More Info

Photo - Google Photos · More Info

Photo - Google Photos · More Info

Looks like grain closed up and did not accept finish. Revisit the final sanding. Which grit? If 120, was it water popped with water? If, contractir still using alcohol, final cut should be 100. 120 will burnish and close grain and requires water to open the grains.

How many coats of impact oil?

Thank you very much. Don't know how many coats but assume one coat nor grit but gives us a starting point.

Just FYI, as I think you are already past this point, but don't even consider Rubio. We have about 2500 sq ft of Rubio over rustic maple. A nightmare for maintenance! Wished i had never heard of the brand! If it was possible to redo, I would use the best water based finish I could find!

G & S Floor Service The fun continues! Despite the floor being sanded again since my last post ( that part looks much better) and being told the floors were water popped and direction given by 2 Loba reps who also supposedly worked on the floors we still have large areas where the floor is cloudy and/or has shiny and matt spots, including toe prints. We also noted there was an empty Parkett Oil can in our trash. We have attempted several times to have a face to face meeting on-site with the floor guy to discuss but to no avail at this point. So we have contacted another flooring guy BUT he has no experience with Loba and since our floors can not take another sanding he is trying to figure out how to help us with this mess. He is willing to call the Loba Rep but the problem is that when we contacted the Loba Rep ourselves he feels there is no issue with the floor. Any thoughts? TIA.

Need pictures of the problem areas. it can be as simple as not cleaning off the oil. in thst case, using tgeir cleaners will remive excess oil.

This is what we saw before we even walked on them

Photo - Google Photos · More Info

Photo - Google Photos · More Info

Photo - Google Photos · More Info

Try buffing the finish some more with a clean white polishing pad - 1' thick, white Norton polishing pad #4100. That can help even it out. Another option is to wipe it down with a hardwood floor cleaner or maintenance oil.

Not sure what those spots are, image is not that clear.

Sorry this happened to you. We went with Pallman Magic Oil in and regretted it. A huge problem with application and I found the rep to be useless. A few years later and I'm getting uneven wear in low traffic areas.

I would go Rubio next time. I've heard so many good things.

No, Rubio has all the same issues!

Thanks for the insight. So our next house we build - who do we use? lol

Assuming you plan to do a solid hardwood? I think the oiled finishes have their place. We will be using Osmo on an alder mantel, and also when we refinish a couple old pieces. But those are mainly for looks, not real use, like floors.

You could search the discussions here for any brand of "hard wax oil", and you would most likely find the same complaints, and far more dissatisfaction than not.

Our hardwood is rustic maple, and we have "salvaged" the Rubio by periodically adding a wiped on coat of Osmo -

Amazon.com: OSMO Liquid Wax Cleaner - 1 Liter : Health & Household

If I knew then what I know now, I would do exhaustive research on commerical grade BONA waterbased finishes, or similar, and go from there.

@stretter, have you read through this?

Hs anyone had experience with oiled finish hardwood floors? (houzz.com)

Ciranova Titan, it's a no brainer for application. Roll it on and walk away. You do not need to worry about whether if, you removed too much or not enough oil.

@G & S Floor Service You have been so helpful to me in so many threads...in regards to this particular thread's topic:

1. Do you still like your Pallman floors?

2. If we live with Pallman hardwax for a few years and decide we need a poly layer, can we still apply the X bond and Pall 98 (after doing the right prep) without stripping floors to wood?

3. By the same note, we have considered that same option with Bona's products--craft oil then if not good enough, bona traffic--I've created a test floor and tested Ciranova, Rubio and Pallman...I have not had a chance to test Bona's Craft 2k, but have not read many good reviews--your thoughts before I buy samples?

4. Will Ciranova Titan hardwax go over Pallman's magic oil (I know you have already discussed mixing products with me elsewhere and the chemical bonds, but these products interest me together because I have tested Ciranova colors and Titan samples, and I just can't get the right look with using both their products.) I am certain the Titan will give me a stronger finish, but I love Pallman's colors. I did a sample of Pallman's with Titan on top and it looks great but I have no idea if it will bond and hold up, or if that top layer will just rub right off during cleaning...

5. And FINALLY...if I can indeed put titan over pallman, does Ciranova have a poly that will go over Titan (if we cant live with just wax...like my question #2)

Thanks so much. You are helping us zero in on final decisions!

@K Brown

It's been almost 8 years now, since I applied Pallmann's Magic oil. The floors in the dining and mud room shows the most wear. The dining room has a lot more compared to the mudroom. We use it daily, so marks from the chairs and food spills is starting to show. We probably could wait another year but, with our current kitchen renovation. It's time for a fresh coat of oil. To answer your first question: do I like the product? - Yes. It has been suitable and held up well for our family of six. The oil is still in good condition. The dining room looks tired and the mudroom has dirt built up. Living, hall, stairs and bed rooms are all in good shape. Can go a few more years or longer before needing my first re-oil. But, we will be using Ciranova's Wood Look Plus on the kitchen floors and stairs, along with some wood work. So, we will be converting the finish over to match, later on in the year. The current look is a aged medium brown (Ciranova's reactive stain with Pallmann's Magic Oil).

Yes - You can apply Pallmann's Magic oil now and later on apply X-bond along with their 2k Finishes over magic oil.

I do not know, how well Craft oil performs on it's own. All craft oil projects I have done, have been top coated with Traffic HD. I cannot comment on the performance. There are sample size oils for sale for about $10 each. My understanding is that it is comparable to Rubio but, more chemical resistant = less water spotting.

Ciranova Titan will work with other hard wax oil products. You can top two coat systems like Pallmann, Osmo, Loba, etc. with Titan. You need to use the hardener which is sold separately. And prepare the previos oil for re-oiling. Usially a deep clean is all you need. I am unsure with Rubio, not tested.

You cannot apply poly over Titan, only Un1co. The good thing with Titan is the ease of application. You roll it on and wait until the next day. You do not need to work it in with a buffer. It does have a strong odor. It has a higher VOC level compared to traditional oils.

Have you looked into Un1co? It has better pigments compared to Pallmann's Magic oil. You will get a more dense and richer color. Although the color pallet is much smaller compared to Pallmann's. Pair it up with a reactive color and you have a endless color pallet.

@G & S Floor Service As usual, thank you for such a clear and helpful answer. I have tried Ciranova's reactive stains on samples-Baro and Smoke. Their Baro was WAAAY off their color chart, even thinned with their clear. (Which...by the way...I discovered, thinning it with water achieves the same darn thing, lol.) The smoke however, I like. And it has a lot of variations depending on the strength of the mix. The Titan looks good on top of the smoke, though it yellows it a bit. I also tested their Titan on top of Pallmann...I love both and I'm glad to hear they will hold up over other oils.

I cannot find samples of the colors I want to test from Bona--called various locations in and out of state. I even called Bona and they said they don't carry the sample pack anymore, nor offer any samples--told me to call and see if dealers have any lying around. This makes me wonder if they are prepping to discontinue their oil line. My local guy said they rarely get requests for it, so they don't carry it any longer either...

My goal has been to know the floor product I want and then find a professional who knows how to work with it. (I see too many threads of people stuck using whatever contractor understands.) But if I cannot test Bona, I won't use it.

I've ordered samples of Ciranova's oils and their Fortico 2C. (Fortico is what they told me goes over their Titan--I will double check their advice.) Fingers crossed that I love the combo and my search is over...

Now...I have to say this about all the possible products, Ciranova so far has the very best customer service, the most informed website, the best answers. Seriously. I'm pretty good at delving into websites, but Bona offers no samples, almost no indepth online brochures, and I have to call to get answers. Pallman's offers a few samples, some brochures, but I have to call to get answers. Loba looks like a MIddle Schooler designed their site.

But Ciranova has it all! They offer samples for every single product and a bunch of combo sample packs, every product has clear info attached, and I get real time answers from a chat room as I am looking at the products...I can even buy all samples without giving out my credit card...through AP. This thoughtful attention to detail bodes well for future customer service, don't you think?

Thanks again. Will let you know how it all turns out.