I’m leaning towards trying John and Bob’s Penetrate or Therm-X 70 for a couple different reasons. The ingredients look good for both and are similar. Saponin from Yucca seems to be one of the keys.

Penetrate says to simply apply 2x a year for best results. Therm-X 70 says it can be applied once or twice annually based on soil. I’m thinking I may apply Penetrate once and Therm-X once this year. Thoughts? Experiences?

Now seems like a good time to apply Penetrate since my soil hasn’t dried out completely yet. I will need to put the irrigation back on soon though because we are getting a good amount of sun and no rain in the near future.... probably not much more this winter or spring.

I figure I will start with the Penetrate and see what happens. Maybe try the Therm-X later in the year?

The Monterey Percolate has fertilizer and I’m not sure I necessarily need what it has.

I know nothing about wetting agents, although I am aware of additives to potting soil used for this purpose, but have thus far avoided them. Therefore, my thoughts on this matter are not going to be as relevant as the opinions of people who have tried these products. Nonetheless, I have taken some soil science courses (years ago, Cornell University) and what stuck with me from those classes is basically that soil organic matter is the solution to many many soil problems (from desertification to erosion and more). It improves soil structure, creates a friendly ecosystem for little soil critters, and increases the soil's capacity to hold water. I am sure you are already composting and mulching, but consider redoubling your efforts if you expect a rough summer. If I were in your zone, I'd probably also think about what types of companion plants I had in the garden -- especially bushes and trees. Some plants are real water hogs (here I am thinking of salt cedar and eucalyptus -- but you might be able to find more info of the water requirements of common garden plants somewhere). If you chose companion plants that don't steal all of the water from your roses, that could help?

Thanks KS. Great points all around. Choosing companion plants wisely is definitely a big part of how I garden. For healthy bugs, microorganisms, culture, and for beauty. I believe I personally already have that covered though, as well as mulch and nutrient rich soil. I really appreciate your thoughts, education and experience though.

The Saponin from Yucca is interesting, as it supposedly works with your soil and microorganisms, providing long term food for the microorganisms, as well as other benefits so it should build what I have even more... which is part of the long game of helping with water penetration and soil building.

The Penetrate product also has molasses and healthy microorganisms to act as a bio stimulant in addition to Saponin from Yucca. But it’s Saponin concentration is less than the Therm-X product. And it’s more expensive. I like the idea behind it though, and the attitude of the company “John & Bob’s.”

I have great soil in most of my yard now, after working on it for years, but can always have even better soil. The newly landscaped areas of my yard are coming along as well, but even healthier plants and a cheaper water bill in the summer months sure would be nice too. ;-)

Cori Ann, just out of curiosity, what are your average annual rainfall and what are temperatures like? How long do dry spells last?

We have a summer drought, but our winter is a winter, though lately usually a mild one. I'm hoping this summer's going to see a normal and not a historic drought like 2017's, but am not feeling too secure about it.

I’ll throw in my pennies worth, and that’s about all I have, a single cents worth of experience. Firstly, I’ve not tried the John and Bobs Penetrate product. I have used another liquid brand for one particular spot out front where all the water pooled and took forever to drain. No roses were there and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t organic because I seem to remember the label warning me about it burning plant roots. I used it in that one spot, that one time, and I saw no improvement. I remember it being expensive, too.

When I gardened for someone else, for pay, I used one of the John and Bobs products to prepare the soil in the beds and the arboretum. It was the bag of granuals called maybe “soil optimizer” or something similar. It contained great ingredients, was natural, and I was able to spend to my hearts content, so I bought the best of everything. Everything was the best of the best there, so I can’t say wether or not the John and Bobs stuff was what made the difference, but the results were great. This is the same town Ingrid lives in, so you know the climate conditions were harsh up there. I think the John and Bobs line are good products in general.

I need to be looking into more ways to optimize my water, too. What I do now is I plant every rose with a scoop of gypsum in the bottom of the hole. I have no idea where I first learned to do this, but I’ve done it with every rose I’ve ever planted. I started doing it over 25 years ago when I was just casually planting roses from Home Depot. It’s firmly etched in my mind that it enables the roots to go down deep into my clay soil. I’ve always done it, and other than gophers, no rose in the ground has died on me yet. That’s with NO drip irrigation, all hand watering by me. I also use moisture crystals in everything I plant. I know they can’t be natural, but I find worms happily living amongst them, so maybe they’re not so bad. I won’t plant a rose without them, or anything else I want to make sure survives the summer. That’s about all I know, but I’m eager to learn more. Lisa

Someone mentioned E-Z Wet Soil Penetrant 26 and I thought I would try that. Does anyone have experience with that? I'm willing to try the products Cori Ann mentions if they're more efficacious. I remember Lisa mentioning the moisture crystals, but at this point everything is planted and I wonder if they would do any good watering then in on top of the soil, but somehow that doesn't quite make sense. The soil between the roses where I haven't mulched is as hard as concrete. The mulch around the roses does seem to keep the soil moister, thank goodness.

The answer is consistent, effective mulching and not this other stuff. Including amending of small beds or planting holes.

Hmmm. So no one has weighed in that has actually used these water soluble products so far... interesting. I may be the lab rat on the forum. :-)

Ingrid I would guess that EZ Wet 26 is more efficacious immediately and the products I’m looking into have more of a long game effect.

I am curious about EZ Wet too, but don’t understand EZ Wet 26 enough to use it. I have spent so much time (and hard manual labor of my own) creating the soil eco-system in my front yard and am off to a very good start in the back yard, I just don’t want to disturb what I have spent so much time and effort creating. Plus obviously, permaculture is important to me.

Melissa my average annual rainfall is somewhere around 17 inches. We are between rain gauge stations so my little microclimate currently reads somewhere between about 15-20 average annual inches of rainfall, but I’m guessing it’s closer to 17 inches. Last year we got lots extra, but this year we are getting lots less.

Temps are usually 90+ starting as early as April, sometimes March but not usually.

90-100+ from May to October daily... Very dry. My yard seems to be much hotter than what temps read due to radiant heat. Usually it cools in November.

Embothrium I do agree that mulching is very important. You may want to just check out Yucca and Saponin before dismissing it entirely though.

I think I understand where you’re coming from and agree for the most part. I don’t amend my soil, but I do believe in building the ecosystem of my soil by nurturing the life that’s there.

Plus to each their own. I don’t believe there is one simple answer. We can each tend to our soil and our gardens our own way.

Ingrid, the moisture crystals are like little clear sponges. They are not going to go down anywhere. They look like coarse ground kosher salt when dry, and like little clear balls of jello when wet. I HAVE used a sprinkling of them on top of the soil for surface sown seeds. They help keep them from drying out instantly in our dry climate. Lisa

Why not try a few drops of cheap unscented dish soap in a hose end sprayer when needed? Could one of those be attached somehow to your soaker hoses or ??? Just a wild thought!!! Does dish soap in minute amount hurt the environment? I’d try that if I was sure it’d be ok to do.

if my idea is rubbish, ignore me please :0)

Lisa, I use those crystals in my outdoor potted planters that are there long-term. It has really helped even here where rainfall usually isn't a problem. Saponins are simply soaps, so Carolina Girl raises an interesting question, although I may opt for a natural fragrance-free liquid soap such as Dr. Bronners. Ingrid, is there a reason (such as fire, time, work) that you don't mulch your entire beds? I've found when I haven't it affects those plants I've mulched drawing away their water. Of course, I don't mulch lavender, etc. in my clay soil.

It is so great hearing different perspectives, ideas, experiences and knowledge.

Saponins aren’t quite soaps, I think that might be a simplification. I guess you could say that Saponins from Yucca are a phytonutrient... or maybe classify them by saying they have a biochemical component.... there are probably also many other ways to describe and classify them.

Many people do use soaps/detergents to penetrate the soil. That doesn’t necessarily work for me because it also affects the rest of the soil eco-system, like bugs, bacteria, fungi, etc. I like the little system I have created for my soil bacteria and fungi. It’s working for me and I want to keep it going.

I do consider myself a steward of soil health Rosylady. It’s funny you said that, as I mentioned it in a different thread recently. :-)

I probably am going to try the Penetrate first to feed my soil microorganisms and see how it works, then instead of using it twice a year, later maybe I will try the Therm-X. I do wish I could hear from someone else who has used it though. Maybe another lab rat who has tried it will weigh in. :-)

Yes, Cori Ann. That was a simplification sorry if it came across as glib. Saponins are complicated and not necessarily beneficial for many organisms regardless of their origin and yes, they definitely have a biochemical component! Should be interesting to see the effects, so I hope you'll both keep us apprised. I really appreciated the info on the other spray you used, drawing a blank here on the name, so hopefully this can be another weapon an our organic Arsenal.

Oh yes! The Dyna-Gro Protekt foliar application of silicon. I am still amazed at that stuff and definitely plan to use it again. So, see, I’m not all totally 100% natural/permaculture. I do make a valiant effort, but I also kind of create my own hybrid system and make my own rules up as I go. :-)

I see some wiggle room in there. :-)

I used saponins in a laboratory and would not want to add them to my soil. They can be quite destructive to some cells, like red blood cells, and have been used to reduce the number of earthworms.

Interesting. I would imagine the amount, concentration and also source makes a difference in the effects though, right? I mean, they’re not only destructive....They’re also used for human consumption.

Is there something else you would recommend instead to help with soil penetration, maximizing water, etc?

About not amending beds or planting holes: I tried that over a period of a few years, and it was a disaster. Nothing grew, and most things died. The only way I've ever found to get plants to grow in my garden is by heavily amending the soil. I also mulch regularly, but it's not enough by itself. For those who don't amend, and get things to grow, good for you. For me, it was the biggest gardening failure I've known in the thirty of so years I've been gardening.

Cori Ann, that's much less water and much more heat than we live with here. I was wondering if you could do without summer watering of established plants like we do, but given your harsher climate I couldn't say. I wouldn't bet on it.

I just want to note, having looked at the John and Bob's link, that it isn't possible to transform clay soils into loam with a liquid (which they seem to suggest this product will do). The difference between clay soils and loam soils is the ratio of soil particle sizes, so while loams do contain clay, they also have more sand than a soil classified as clay will. A liquid amendment can't change that. However, it may be possible that it improves soil structure and soil organic matter by increasing the activity of soil organisms -- that is totally possible. I'm really curious to hear your report about how this works, Cori Ann. If you have the space to do an experiment, you might also try using a molasses tea on part of your garden, since molasses is such a key part of this product, leaving a third part un-treated? This could be a little rose forum science experiment. :)

Cori Ann, what about biochar? Might that help?

Very interesting and lovable subject! Ah, Rosylady, how I love your post. To me, "soil stewardship" is so much of what it means to be a gardener,love of the earth itself. It's one reason why I am so fond of fall and winter: these are the seasons for the roots and the soil. As beautiful as flowers are to look at and experience in their own right, a good flowering also has the deeper meaning: that the plant that is able to express itself so joyously is happy,the soil in which it lives is good. I'm certainly not "against" native plants at all, and native landscape is an important point of reference for a gardener,but "pushing the edges" is important, too, IMO. At my land, wild roses grow very happily-they are weeds,lol...so why not push the boundaries and go for their snazzier cousins as well? Or...think of the common cypress, now often called simply "Italian cypresss" .Well, surprise, surprise, on Internet I read that IT IS NOT NATIVE TO ITALY. It was brought here by somebody English; I forget what it's native country actually was.

My own soil is so bad; I totally sympathize with Melissa,and of course organic matter and mulch are THE essential keys. But it doesn't sound to me like CoriAnn is looking for a "quick fix",nor is she taking a superficial attitude. It sounds like her soil is really pretty good already ,so I say, why not try it if she can afford it? I probably would,if these things were available here in Italy, and it's just as well that they aren't, because I can't really afford them; not that I think that they could ever possibly take the place of organic matter! Certainly NOT. But it doesn't sound to me like she expects it would do that; it's more like icing on the cake (and what is wrong with some good icing, if it makes the cake tastier,lol?) The process of working on soil is a very, very long-term one. It takes years and years of very hard, time-consuming work,and also is not without financial costs.It's a long-term investment...and also a bit of a vocation, as Rosylady expresses so well in her post.

Melissa, Rosylady and Bart, some people around me create lovely gardens with rocks and native plants that need very little, if any, irrigation. I have one area of mostly natives and rocks that doesn’t need much, but the majority of my garden definitely needs water. It gets so hot and dry here! Plus of course I like to plant my pretties, like roses, azaleas, veggies, herbs, citrus, etc. I don’t amend, but I spent years and years (and a lot of hard manual labor) slowly transforming my front yard into usable, fertile soil teeming with life. I love the analogy of cake... and icing. ;-)

When I first moved in the soil was barren. I couldn’t find anything alive in it. Nothing. A lot of hard work, patience and mulch transformed it into what it is now. Wonderful fungi and bacteria, lots and lots of fantastic bugs, my favorite little bugs like ants (I even like termites in my soil - just not in the house) that aerate this dry clay for me, lots and lots of worms, even some really cool slime molds. My soil is now nutrient rich and filled with life. I feel really proud that I have created that out of the barren land that was here before. My soil in the front is really good here now, but I believe it’s because I worked with it instead of against it, was patient, and nurtured the life in it. Clay soil is great if you can unlock the nutrients in it. It’s just such a back breaker to work with and so hard to unlock. The back yard is still coming along, but it’s happening a lot faster than the front did. Mulch and patience are definitely my favorite tools of transformation here.

KS I’m really curious too. I like your idea of a rose forum experiment. I’m not sure I will experiment with just molasses tea though, as I am not sure I really need that. I had my soil analyzed last year and know it is very high in the nutrients molasses has; calcium, magnesium, potassium and iron. I’m not sure I really need bio-char either. Good ideas though.

So....I can do a little DIY experiment with the Penetrate in one area, since it has yucca, molasses and microorganisms... then do the Therm-X-70 in a different area since it’s active ingredient is just the yucca.

Of course it’s mostly just for entertainment since I have no way of really isolating all the other variables, but it will be fun to see what happens.

Since I was thinking of applying one and then the other anyways, I will just switch them in the different areas when the time comes, as long as they seem to both be helping. That way both areas will end up getting the same treatment in the long run, since of course the experiment is for fun, but the actual goal is consistent permeability and healthy soil. :-)

OK! I will do it! I will be the lab rat and report back. :-)

BTW... I hope others who are using the EZ Wet 26, crystals and other ideas report back too! I believe we can all help each other by sharing our different experiences in our gardens.

I've decided I'll be the lab rat with E-Z Wet 26 since I have a truly major problem with soil permeability. Rosylady and I can compare notes, although I think I have her beaten in the soil-like-concrete stakes. If it works in my soil it will work everywhere short of a paved-over parking lot!

I think you do have me beaten Ingrid, but I was watching while we had some stumps removed this weekend and I was shocked at how horrible the soil is at my house.

I kept thinking the excavator was hitting old concrete because it was rock solid, gray, and completely devoid of organic matter. It's hard to believe that enormous 150 foot Douglas Firs grow so big in it!

Fortunately though, we hit the soil motherlode when we excavated another area only about 30 feet away and it was beautiful dark loam more than 4 feet down! I kept trying to explain to my husband (a non-gardener) what a find it was, but he thought it all just looked like dirt :)

Because of this incredible soil discovery, I had all the stumps pulled from the area (approx 60 x 20) and I'm planning a whole new rose bed there! I am having visions of walking out there and simply putting the shovel in the soil and having it go down! haha

Anyway, sorry to hijack, but it was very exciting to me and I have to tell people who understand :)

It’s not a hijack at all. I totally appreciate your discovery.

Just thinking out loud here, I don’t know how long the stumps were there deteriorating, but isnt it neat to think of the entire life/death cycle and how it’s so symbiotic? That’s what I love about being a stewardess of the soil. Meaning... the dynamics in that soil could have happened because of the stumps decaying and all the life that sustained, making the soil there so great. Maybe your timing is part of the symbiotic relationship, to notIce it and remove the stumps at just the right time when the soil is fertile and ready to sustain new plants that will flourish.

Its just a really cool, beautiful, larger than life type of dynamic. Larger than death too. It really gives me a feeling of zen to be a part of it, to notice, to appreciate and to cultivate it. It puts my life into perspective and fills me with a true feeling of peace and understanding. I guess you could say my spirit, my church, is in the dirt. :-)

And while it is arduous and an act of love, I also get just as much of what I put into it, if not more.

Concentration of saponins would certainly make a difference to their toxicity. The best way to moisten my hydrophobic soil is when mother nature provides a gentle rain that lasts long enough to get through the thick mulch to the soil below. Unfortunately that doesn’t happen often enough. When trying to establish new plants I sometime use an olla. Like ma nature it provides slow watering over a prolonged period.

https://www.sunset.com/garden/how-to-use-an-olla-to-water-your-garden

soil stewardess....love it! Is that a goddess of the soil? :))

I agree with you Cori Ann...there's just something about soil that's fascinating. I find the soil part of gardening just as interesting as the plants and flowers. I aspire to have good soil as much as I aspire to have beautiful plants.

Have you ever seen The Victorian Kitchen Garden? It's an old BBC series about an old walled country house kitchen garden. The soil there had been cultivated for 100 years and it was deep and rich. They actually went outside the walled garden and dug into the untouched native soil to show the difference, and what 100 years of "soil stewardship" had accomplished. It was really interesting.

In the old gardening books (especially the British ones) there is always extensive discussion of soil. I find it so interesting...and the perfect thing to read right before bed.

Nothing puts you to sleep with sweet dreams better than some good soil reading. Except for maybe reading about manure :))

re: saponins....when I was reading about EZ Wet they described saponins as sugars. Apparently it's a source of carbohydrates for organisms. But then, that was info put out by the EZ WET company, so maybe they were making it sound more palatable to the consumer.

"Microorganism Candy"

haha

Socalgal good idea to mention the Olla. I thought about trying one... but then I remembered the redwoods around here. I think the redwoods near here would slap the Olla around and then promptly bust right through it just to show me who’s really boss. It’s such a great concept though. I would imagine it’s really helpful in sandy soils. Although, I bet in some clay soils you wouldn’t even need the clay container. Just dig a hole and let the clay soil be the Olla. At least that’s how mine used to be in the front. Water in a hole wouldn’t drain for days. Literally.

Rosylady I am really looking forward to seeing photos of your new rose garden in that fabulous soil!

I'm late to this thread (and not fashionably late, either), but I did read the first of the 2 Aussie articles you linked to, and thought that if I ever needed a wetting agent the recipe given made from kelp and sugar water might be worth a try. Though if large amounts were neded it seems like that would get expen$ive.

That article also explains that dish soap may contain non-biodegradable ingredients that can be harmful to plants. At least in Australia, only the main ingredient of dish soap needs to be biodegradable, and I would not expect U.S. standards to be higher...

I am coming even later to the thread and have no advice or experience of these concoctions. But I was surprised to learn that Cori Ann gets 17 inches of rain. In 2016 our annual precipitation was 400 millimeters, a little over 15 inches. I suppose I shall have to thank our cool summers that my garden is not quite dead except for brown grass because the evaporation here is so much less than in your hot climate.

That’s just an average though Mariannese. The “rain year” here is from July -June. This year we have only gotten about 7-8 inches from July 1... and we probably are not going to get much more before June 30th, so it’s going to be pretty far below the average annual rainfall.

Thanks for mentioning ollas,Cori Ann. I never heard of them before, but am now anxious to try a couple ; maybe install them near a couple newly planted roses that didn't have as big a root system as I would have liked,to baby these along in their first summer. Also might be good for certain roses like RdV, that enjoy extra fertiliztion. I'm kind of excited!

It was actually Socalgal that thought to mention the Olla. :-)

You can also easily make your own for much less, if you like DIY projects. Either out of clay, or even out of clay pots....

https://lovelygreens.com/how-to-make-diy-ollas-low-tech-self-watering-systems-for-plants/

My cheap rancher family used to make our own “Ollas” out of gallon containers, like milk jugs, with itty bitty holes.

I happened to come across the half used bottle of soil penetration liquid that I mentioned in my post up top. As I mentioned, it didn’t seem to work, and it’s not organic. I’m totally unfamiliar with these ingredients, so I’m posting a picture of the labor. Does anyone know what this stuff is, and is it harmful to the soil? Thanks, Lisa

The first ingredient is a surfactant (similar to a soap)- that would theoretically help water penetrate. Here is a Material Safety Data Sheet for that component, but these sheets can make sugar look dangerous so don’t let it alarm you. It does look a bit dangerous for fish (section 12) so it would be good to keep it away from ponds. https://www.spectrumchemical.com/MSDS/T3109.pdf

Thank you, socalgal! I looked at the pdf you provided, and truthfully I can’t really tell if it’s a harmful thing for the soil or not. I don’t have a pond or fish, so that’s a good thing. I do still have a few low areas that don’t drain all that well, but like I mentioned in my first comment, I couldn’t really see that this stuff helped much the one time I did use it. I’m kind of torn between giving it another try, to use it up, or disposing of it. I do remember it being pretty pricey, hence my reluctance to dispose of it. OTH if it’s bad for the soil, I’d rather not use it, no matter what I paid for it! Lisa

An aspirin may help drought tolerance.

https://www.gardenweb.com/gardenweb/query/aspirin-drought-tolerence

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https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=6456Wry9NuGG5wLNvqiQAw&q=%22Salicylic+acid%22+drought+tolerance&oq=%22Salicylic+acid%22+drought+tolerance&gs_l=psy-ab.12...4110.4110.0.6128.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.2.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.Ns9OP43Ou2o

If you are trying to grow your roses in soil that resembles a chemical dump (fungicides, insecticides), you probably are negatively affecting the roses natural drought tolerance.

https://www.utoronto.ca/news/drought-resistant-plants-u-t-study-looks-crucial-role-root-microbiomes-play

I’ve used dish soap on hydrophobic soils in the past. It does break the water tension and it does cure the problem if the problem was caused by short term issues. My soil was hydrophobic due to being exposed to the heat and sun from the soil yard. When it was delivered to me, it repelled water. This was a short term issue, easily cured.

If the hydrophobia is long term, I think different measures must be taken. The people in Australia are our first clue. Their dry heat render their sandy soils hydrophobic in a more permanent way. They can’t just add a little soapy water, commence regular watering, and have fertile soil. If they could, they wouldn’t have an ongoing issue with infertile, hydrophobic soils. They are finding that they have to use a combination of wetting agents, lots of organic matter, and of course, mulch!

I think many of us in the drought ridden areas of California are beginning to learn from the people in Australia because our soils are becoming dry and baked. In my new home, I have sandy, hydrophobic soil and have been looking into wetting agents myself. I have added more organic matter than I though was proper and even peat moss and still, plants don’t want to thrive. This year, I am going to add ollas, and a wetting agent. I am cautious, because there seems to be conflicting information about these agents. I will pick the one that seems safest and cross my fingers because at this point, the plants aren’t living anyway.