Copper is gorgeous. I love them but after much discussion with friends I also learned that I was not a fit for them. But this should not stop you. Sometimes if we love something like white marble or dark ebony wood floors or AGA ranges... we are willing to tolerate the challenges to enjoy the good they provide. A copper sink might be a challenge to care for to keep them looking new but if you love them you will find this is not a chore to you at all.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/copper-sink-yes-or-no-dsvw-vd~222719?n=31

Thanks. I did read that article but it goes back to my original post that there are quality differences such that the higher quality copper sinks don't require babying such as drying after every use or waxing. Rachiele and Haven explicitly state that no drying or waxing is necessary whereas some other copper sinks state that drying and waxing of their sinks is necessary.

I'm trying to determine why that is true - is it pooling? Is it some kind of factory finish in cheaper sinks that can be destroyed without proper maintenance.

I don't want white marble in my kitchen but my good friend installed it over a decade ago and it still looks fine with normal use and no babying. Dark wood floors that I have seen however seem to be a nightmare even with normal use in terms of showing every speck of dust and every scratch.

I have had a 42" Rachiele sink for a year now, and you certainly do not need to wipe it out after each use. I use it several times a day. One of the great things about it (and IMHO there are several) is that I don't have to be particularly careful because it's a living finish. anything I might do to it goes away in a week or two without me doing anything special. I also like that I can do all the prep work in the sink so I don't have to clean the counters.

The sinks that you have to wash out and wax are the ones that have a finish on them. Besides being a pain in the posterior to take care of, the finish prevents the copper from acting as an antibacterial agent. The only finish on my sink is on the very front of the apron

For pooling, I shot a short video, but the video upload is only to link to youtube and vimeo, so here are some screen shots one minute apart. (The last one is 45 seconds, not a minute.)

I didn't do anything but put some water in the sink and let it drain. Before shooting, I washed the cat water bowls. You can see that pooling just isn't an issue.

I turned on the overhead light so you can clearly see where the water is, but it caused some of the areas to wash out and have a reflection that is a camera artifact, not the real colour.

Thanks. From my reading the Rachiele website, they guarantee water pooling will not happen. It appears that Haven Metals has similar guarantees with respect to their copper sinks and neither require the drying or waxing of the less expensive and I am assuming lower quality copper sinks.

it appears Haven is about $1000 cheaper than the comparable Rachiele. I am thinking about the same style you have - the workstation ones with a ledge and probably an apron front. I have a small kitchen and currently have an over the sink cutting board so having that built in capability along with the drying rack seems enormously functional to me.

any opinions on Haven versus Rachiele as their specs seem very similar and different than the less expensive copper sinks I see

i see you have the sponge holder. Does that eat into usable sink space. I would be able to fit at most a 30” sink so I want to get as much usable real estate as possible and wouldn’t want something not that functional taking up space.

I currently have a large single copper sink in our laundry room and a smaller version in the coffee station/hutch. I purchased the larger sink to use in our kitchen, but DH wanted the V&B farmhouse, so we went with it. In our previous home, I had the same large single bowl copper sink in our kitchen and loved it. I still love it, and if we had a place for one in our new home (currently remodeling) I would have purchased another one. It is a wonderful, deep sink.

The sinks were purchased from Sinkworks. This is the sink I have in laundry room/last house kitchen.

I do not baby the sinks. I do not dry after each use. I love the patina, and if you want to start over, just use a little ketchup. If a spot becomes shiny due to an acidic item, it does not take long for it to back to a patina.

The picture with the sponge holder was taken when the sink was first installed, I now keep it under the cutting board so it never takes up any usable sink space.

I've never seen a Haven in person, so I can't comment on them. I will say that Dino is very good to work with and you won't regret the extra dollars spent. The sink was the most expensive appliance I purchased during the remodel (Bluestar electric french door wall oven was next). I'm enjoying both.

One final point. There is nothing that can't be made a little cheaper by making it a little worse.

I agree in theory you get what you pay for. On the other hand, I don't need a Subzero refrigerator to adequately cool my food - I'm happy with a Bosch or KA (theoretically).

I specifically asked about Haven versus Rachiele because their construction seems so similar. Neither requires waxing or drying after every use and neither has the artificial finish of some of the less expensive sinks which can be damaged and are not living or self healing. Both companies give me the option of a rear drain which I think is highly functional - especially in my small kitchen since it frees up below the sink real estate.

Haven is not a cheap option - the comparable Haven Farm sink with ledge for accessories is $2500 ($2690 for a hammered finish) versus Rachiele which charges $3786 for essentially the same apron front sink. In the scheme of things, given the cost of a kitchen remodel, $1000 isn't make or break but unless there is some functional reason to spend the additional money aside from "branding", I would go with the less expensive option. To continue my metaphors, Haven appears to be the Lexus of copper sinks in terms of pricing versus Rachiele which is the Mercedes.

I look upon the sink as an investment since I don't want to even think about changing it or discovering that I have problems that wouldn't exist if I had spent an additional $1000. However, I am trying to determine what the functional difference might be to justify the more expensive option.

Also, is there some reason to go with a hammered sink bottom. From what I have read (putting aside aesthetics) hammered bottoms disguise dents that might occur in softer higher gauge copper. On the other hand (at least to me) it seems as though a hammered bottom in a kitchen sink might be more difficult to clean.

Thanks.

As I said, I have zero experience with Haven, and great experience with Rachiele, so I can't do a comparison. There is absolutely no reason to go with a hammered bottom. I'd think that would make a cleaning nightmare because of the way you would have to scrub to get small food particles out of the sink. (I'm as lazy as the next person.) What I can say is that dents aren't an issue with my sink.

I wash full size baking sheets, and bowls to large to fit in the dishwasher, so far no dents. This kind of washing happens at least once every couple of weeks. (I wouldn't drop an anvil in the sink from head height, but I don't expect that to be a problem for most people :-) If you are concerned, because (for example) you're washing very large cast iron cookware, the Rachiele sink has a grid that you can turn sideways and put in the bottom of the sink. I've never bothered and have had no issues, however, all my cast iron cookware fits in the dishwasher.

I have scratched the bottom of the sink, but the scratches disappear after a bit. The worst I have had happen is that Denise left a tin can in the sink overnight and it made a black ring. It took about a month for that to go away, but it did go away with no effort on my part.

My general advice on copper sinks (and wooden countertops) is that if you are the person that wants a sink to always appear as if it was just installed, then either you need a maid so that you never have to look at the sink, or you need to replace the sink every few weeks. Personally, I appreciate things that show they have been used rather than being purchased to be a showpiece. The concept of wabi-sabi fits the copper sink very well.

Thanks - I am far from wanting functional items to appear pristine. The living patina of copper is part of its charm. However, there are items that are out of the door maintenance problems which need to be maintained in a certain way or be ruined.

The waxing/drying for most of the other copper sinks sets off my alarm bells and then when I read the specs, I discover they have some kind of finish that needs to be cared for - unlike Rachiele and what appears to be Haven which have no lacquer or other factory finish that can be destroyed. Obviously you can't offer an opinion on an item you have no knowledge of but perhaps someone who went with Haven will stop by :-) and let me know if it is an apples to apples comparison or not.

I'll call both of them on Monday to see why they are or are not equivalent as when I read their specs, they seem to be equivalent and quite a bit different from the other copper sink brands - some of which have been recommended on houzz threads.

And yes, my instinct is that a hammered sink bottom contains too many crevices for my less than fastidious housekeeping desires. I was just asking because so many of the copper sinks seem to offer that and I was wondering whether it was to disguise dents in lower quality sinks or whether it was some kind of aesthetic choice that lowered functionality of the sink. In terms of aesthetics, I would think that a smooth bottom sink is more classic anyway.

Aaron - Thank you for your response. I am aware of the issues and specifically asked Havens Metal about it. The response from the owner was quite a bit different than the one posted on the Rachiele website.

Since there is no judgment or injunctive relief regarding the purported theft of IP, it becomes merely a he said/he said between two competitive brands and therefore was discounted in my decision making process especially since Rachiele has a rather odd history of postings inflammatory information about other copper sink brands. If the allegations were true, there would have been non-compete agreements and/or confidentiality agreements regarding the IP.

The Galley has similar features as does a Kohler model and some other sink brands do offer various options similar to what Rachiele is claiming to be his own "invention".

"Since there is no judgment or injunctive relief regarding the purported theft of IP, it becomes merely a he said/he said between two competitive brands and therefore was discounted in my decision making process especially since Rachiele has a rather odd history of postings inflammatory information about other copper sink brands. If the allegations were true, there would have been non-compete agreements and/or confidentiality agreements regarding the IP."

Helen:

If you familiarize yourself with the situation, you will see it was Dino Rachiele's attempt to obtain a written non-compete agreement with his manufacturer, Havens Metal, of 17 years that led to their disagreement.

Havens Metal made a business decision to stop being Rachiele's vendor and start being his competitor. I've seen this a lot in business; it's typical grass-is-greener syndrome. Everyone thinks the other guy is killing it. Instead of being content with their manufacturing piece of the pie, they knew how much they were charging him and how much he was charging his customers, and designs in hand, figured "What do we need this guy for?" Dino even let them retail a sink now and again when they'd call and ask, but that wasn't enough apparently.

Nighthawk firearms was started when some disgruntled gunsmiths from Wilson Combat made a business decision to do their own thing. I worked on a local restaurant's outlets regularly, but only as a sub to his cabinetmaker. Had the owner ever called me directly, I would have deferred until I got permission from his cabinetmaker. But that's just me.

If you or anyone else can substantiate your claim of Dino being "inflammatory" anywhere, please link. Otherwise I will consider such a claim "he said/she said".

There was a thread on Rachiele on houzz in which someone posted that a disgruntled customer had been excoriated on Rachiele's website.

I am not an attorney for Havens or Rachiele and since I don't have access to their contractual relationship, it's a non-issue to me in terms of a purchase of a sink.

If I am going to boycott a business - which is what the intent of various posts have been - it would be on facts I am completely certain of and not based an explanation by one party posted on his website.

Thanks.

Helen - I am in the same exact position you were in picking out a kitchen sink for our new build! Can you tell me what you decided and if you are happy with your decision? Thank you so much!

@HU-891276262 - I went with Havens and am super happy with my decision. Alex Havens couldn't have been more helpful during the process and the sink is gorgeous and completely maintenance free.

I am not here to *litigate* a business dispute between two companies. Havens had a reasonable explanation and in fact Rachiele did not *invent* the sink - but really that is neither here nor there.

There was no business, moral or ethical reason not to buy from Havens. And certainly no objective reason to spend more for the same sink. If you go to the Havens website, you will see they are a larger company and the handmade copper sinks are a portion of the business and so there are economies of scale which are why they can produce the same product and sell it for slightly less.

Rachiele does offer "fancier" styles in terms of finishes but I didn't have any interest in anything other than what I got. In the end my sink has a left rear offset drain - the offset freed up enough space under my sink so that I could fit a pull out trash container since the disposal wasn't in the middle. It is on the left side because I am left handed and my dishwasher is to the left instead of the right of the sink :-).

Thank you so much Helen! Do you have any photos? How wide did you go? Did you get any of the bells and whistles? I'm not interested in the fancy finishes. Just don't want to spend more money for the exact same thing. I'm super nervous about having just one bowl! I will have a bar sink not too far away. I'm also nervous about having trash under the sink because of having to move if someone needs to use the trash. I plan to put my dishwasher to the right and garbage to the right of that. I am right handed and will have the drain on the right. Do you hand wash many items? Do you dry them on the counter?

@HU-891276262

My sink is a ledge style because I have a relatively small kitchen and so it is functional for me to have the cutting board that goes across the sink. I also use the "grid" all the time because it effectively extends my counter and provides a wonderful place for drying produce as well as drying the random pot or whatever I don't put in the dishwasher - so I don't need a drain for drying stuff that sits on the counter and I don't have to worry about water dripping on the counter so it is above the sink.

I also got the sponge holder which is the little shelf that sits on the side and I love that. So functional as I have someplace to just toss the sponge or damp cloth.

Other than that my sink has a non-hammered interior. I spoke to Alex and he agreed that the hammered interior was less functional because it would be harder to maintain - any bits of food or drops of water. As it is, my maintenance consists of wiping a sponge along the bottom or if I am ambitious squirting some Dawn detergent if there is greasy stuff.

I did opt for a hammer front on my farmhouse apron style sink. I did this because the lightly hammered stuff that Havens does is not that obnoxious fake stuff done by the cheap sink brands - the ones with the artificial dark patina. I figured that since the front of the sink would not be subject to the same kinds of substances changing the patina all the time, the hammered would blend in better with the interior - and I think it does.

I opted for a 36" sink. Since I was going with the ledge style, I wasn't giving up counter space since the ledge features effectively acted like a counter. I was gaining a larger sink which is super handy because I can stash stuff to be washed on one side and still be able to use the faucet.

Also, having a larger sink cabinet enabled me to fit both the garbage disposal PLUS the roll out trash container. If I didn't have a roll out under the sink, I would have no good place for the garbage receptacle. Before my remodel, I had a Simple Human container and it sat in front of a cabinet so I had to move the receptacle whenever I wanted to access the cabinet.

Here's a picture taken when I first moved in - the plastic is still on the dining room chairs and no pictures hung on the wall. I still haven't given up the toaster oven although my designer pleaded with me :-)

The angle makes it looks as if the grid is taking up a disproportionate amount of space but there is ample space for most sink functions and if I want the whole sink open, it's very simple to put the grid in the sink - the grid is actually multifunction and intended to be on the bottom if you want.

ETA - I can't imagine ever having anything but a single bowl sink. If I wanted it would be easy for me to create a "bowl" using any kind of large container. I think you can even purchase something that turns it into a double bowl with an insert. However, my lifestyle is such that I don't ever use a double bowl. Even if I hand wash something, it is either cookware which I squirt with detergent and either soak in the bottom of the sink or wash immediately or very delicate stuff which wouldn't go in a bowl anyway.

ETA - With Havens sinks, you can order a cabinet that is precisely the size of the sink - e.g. a 36" cabinet for a 36" sink. From what I have read, for most sinks you need to order a sink that is slightly smaller than the size of the cabinet - e.g. a 36" sink would not fit in a 36" cabinet. This is what I read when I was researching kitchens so I am just putting it out there as something to consider.

HU-891276262 Not Helen, but here goes:

42" wide. Some pictures in a previous post.

Got the cutting board, colander, add-a-bowl and basket.

One bowl is great. Lots more room.

I only handwash items that are too big to fit in the dishwasher and the ones that can't use the dishwasher, such as the baking sheets, silpats, large bowls. I usually dry them on the induction cooktop because it's easy to clean.

I have a small bowl with liner where the garbage goes before going in the trash bin.

Undercounter photo.

Rachiele copper sink · More Info

I haven't had dealings with Havens, so no opinion one way or the other. I've found Dino at Rachiele great to work with. From the comments of others, both companies have satisfied customers (and I assume a few that weren't satisfied as no one bats 100%).

Helen and Jerry! I can't thank you enough! I've spoke to Dino yesterday and he was amazing and so helpful. I feel like I have finally found someone that thinks a sink is as important as I do! I have decided for sure on the 36 inch farmhouse style. Have not decided on copper or stainless as of yet. One of the differences I see between Rachiele and Haven's sinks is the depth of the bowl front to back. Haven's bowl is 20 inch and Rachiele is 17.5 standard but I can customize to 18 inches. We use a great deal of 1/2 sheet pans for roasting veggies and the 18 inch would allow me to rest it on the ledge. Not positive if it is worth the extra cost. Did either of you consider stainless?

HU-891276262 -- Didn't even consider stainless. Copper has amazing benefits. Germs are killed in four hours max (includes CV-19), so it's more sanitary. Scratches and stains disappear with zero work on my part. I'd never go back to a stainless sink. Stainless is fine for backsplashes and appliances, but not so good where you're going to be putting things in them and may occasionally drop something heavy.

I wanted copper. If I were getting stainless, there are other brands I would have explored and probably gotten.

I don’t understand why you the 18” provides increased functionality. I don’t understand how it increases functionality.

Hi Helen! I could chop on the cutting board and move the veggies straight to the 1/2 sheet pan resting on the ledge. I guess not a huge deal I could have the sheet pan resting on the counter next to the sink. Does that make sense?

HU-891276262 -- Wouldn't work with my sheet pans, they're all full size :-) What I do is place the sink strainer (pictured) and put a bowl in it. Chop the veggies, put the cutting board so it covers about half the bowl, and the veggies get shoved into the bowl. Also, if I'm putting veggies in a sheet pan it's usually for broiling. Parchment paper to cover the silpat.

Ok Jerry that super functional! Can I ask do you have wood counters?!

Also - what is the white strip in your photo? Did you say you use induction cooktop? I have always been a gas gal but considering induction.

HU-891276262 -- The white strip is the colander and bowl holder. Because there is a big hole in the middle of it, it also keeps the majority of the cutting board dry. The counters are wood. I chose wood because after it gets banged about, marked with a too hot pan, etc. it will just look used and loved. The hard surface materials only look good when they are pristine--something that won't ever happen in my kitchen.

Yes. I use induction. Would never go back to gas. Induction is easy to cook with, energy efficient, no fumes or gas dangers, keeps the kitchen cooler, easy to clean up. There's really no reason to use gas for anything these days.

You could just get the chopping board with a hole that holds a stainless bowl. I actually have that accessory as well as a straight cutting board. But it really doesn’t seem worth the money since you can sweep any vegetables into any bowl and then transfer to the sheet pan that would be the low tech $10 solution. 😂😂

One of the big advantages of working above a sink is that any debris falls into the sink so it minimizes cleanup after prepping.

Before CV-19 I mostly used the SS colander, but now I mostly use the Add-A-Bowl to wash the veggies in electrolyzed water before refrigerating. Then the strainer to rinse them before use (removes the salt). Works really well. Because they are now out, I just use them more.

Do you use the same strainer to drain pasta and ground beef or your own?

HU-757119745 -- I don't do any meat. Pasta is drained in the strainer that comes with the pasta pot set. However, I made a mistake and followed America's Test Kitchen recommendations. The All-Clad pot is separating (every All-Clad pot I purchased has either warped or separated). Replacing them one at a time with Fissler. I don't believe that strainer would work well for pasta because the holes are too large.

Oh thanks for the heads up on pots and pans! I’m replacing our 31 years old set. I’ve considered All Clad. Looking at Made in. I will look into Fissler

HU-757119745 -- This is one of the Fissler pots I have. Note the thick base that won't warp and distributes heat evenly.

You are over thinking the accessories IMO.

If you feel the need to get any accessories after the sink has been installed, they will still be available,

The grid which I got for my Havens (and I assume is somewhat like what Jerry has) is not meant to replace a colander for pasta or small items. I use it for draining placing produce after it has been washed.

A standard colander or bowl is probably still the easiest thing to use to sweep vegetables into or drain pasta or for other similar draining needs like after washing canned beans for example.

As posted by me above, there is no functional reason why you would need a special size of sink so your sheet pan fits across the sink solely for the purpose of transferring prepped veggies from a cutting board to the sheet pan.

Helen- hello!! Sorry to bother ! I’m rethinking putting garbage and recycling under the sink. Even though I have space for it elsewhere it really is a genius use of space! Do you find it inconvenient that the garbage is below sink when you are in front of the sink and someone else needs to get at garbage/recycling? Thank you so much!

It's not an issue for me. I have a galley kitchen so I am used to moving aside briefly so others might have access - no one can pass when my oven is open; my dishwasher is open or someone is at the open refrigerator. Placement under the sink for my kitchen is the best use of space because there is no where else to put it where it wouldn't be less functional.

As others have posted, garbage can either go into a small bowl for later or scraped into the sink if it is the kind of stuff that goes into your disposal.

In the end no one can advise you on the best way to customize your kitchen so it works best for you. If you think you would have numerous people accessing the sink cabinet while you are at the sink and there is a better place for it to go, then use the alternative. Keep in mind that for many people the area under the sink is pretty wasted and having a direct load of wet stuff right under the sink is the best placement for a garbage holder.

Recycables don't go there as it is only the single container for what is truly garbage.

Hi Helen!! I'm still making my sink decision! I thought I was going to switch to stainless steel but the copper is SO pretty! I was wondering if you could answer a couple of questions - did you buy your garbage/recycling pull out after the fact or was that part of the original design. I technically would have room for a 42 inch farmhouse sink. Do you feel like the extra 6 inches would be a great advantage? I just don't know if the 42 inches will be MORE than I actually need? Thank you so much!

HU:

Copper is a lot like marble in that it gets a funky patina. If you're into that, great, you and copper will be happy together, however, don't expect your sink to look the way it did on the day it was installed. Not happening.

My pullout was part of the original design for my kitchen. It was why having a left rear drain for the sink was critical. This enabled me to have the garbage disposal to the side instead of the middle and so I could have the pullout under the sink. My kitchen is a small valley kitchen so I needed to maximize every inch.

My life style isn’t such that I need a 42” sink but if the proportions look okay with the rest of your design and you can spare the counter, why not?

@Joseph Corlett, LLC My Havens metal already had a patina so it looks like it did when it arrived except the splotches and streaks are in different places. 😂 But yes, copper sinks should have what is called a living patina in that they change because acidic foods will take the patina off for a shirt time and then air will change it back. This is different than the artificially patinaed finishes which will wear off and should be avoided. But a copper sink is not meant to be shiny and polished. If that kind of shiny look is your aesthetic, you definitely should not get a copper sink as it will always look lived in.

Helen and Jerry - I finally pulled the trigger and ordered my copper farmhouse sink! Now I’m making the faucet decision. I have stainless appliances and am not afraid to mix metals. Could I ask what faucets you have with your copper sinks? Thank you!

HU-891276262 -- Mine is the Waterstone 5300 PLP Contemporary Extended Reach Pulldown Kitchen Faucet in Tuscan Brass with a soap dispenser and 3020 Single Port Air Gap (to protect the dishwasher). The Tuscan Brass is a lliving finish, so there is no protective clear coat on it. With use the finish wears to give a two tone type pattern. If you use a maid service, this finish probably won't be for you because the maids will likely turn it into an all-brass finish :-)

Jerry - thank you for your response! Would you get a waterstone again? I’m also looking at a delta and brizo tgat have a pretty good reach. We use a touch faucet currently and my husband and I have gotten used to that feature.

I have the Kohler Artifacts Kitchen faucet and I am very pleased with it. When I was looking at faucets, there were a few with a similar look but I liked this one the most and the reviews were quite good - both on the internet and from people on this forum.

My finish is oil rubbed bronze and it goes well with the rest o my kitchen - I have quite a bit of copper besides the sink - hood, ceiling tiles, knobs and pulls and some copper accent tiles. My wall oven and microwave drawer are the standard black and stainless.

While I didn't want to get a kitchen faucet that was a piece of junk and Kohler isn't, I also felt that all of all aspects of a kitchen, the faucet is the one that is most easily replaced if need be.

I did get real copper for the drain as I wanted it to have the same kind of authentic living finish as my sink. Both Havens and Rachiele sell real copper drains.

HU-891276262 -- Yes, I'd get Watertone again. The last faucet I had (Kohler) didn't last very long at all.

Helen, on some other post you mentioned there is a cheaper brand of natural finish copper sinks (aside from Haven and Rachiele)
Could you share what brand that is?

I'm not Helen but had three copper sinks in two houses from Sinkworks.