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Defoliating once blooming climbing roses

Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago

I know these are not to be winter pruned, but I read that the leaves should be removed during winter from the UC master gardeners. http://ucanr.edu/sites/UC_Master_Gardeners/files/138925.pdf

Experiences?

I’m organic / permaculture so I know my practices and cultivation are key... but GAH! I want to skip defoliating roses like Felicitie et Perpetue. It will tear me apart and take all day.

I have already decided I’m going to skip defoliating my Peggy Martins. That’s just nuts.

I also want to skip defoliating a few others.... but I have created a design where they intermingle with reblooming climbing roses so I know it would be best for all if I just defoliate all like I’m supposed to.

Ideas? Experiences? Advice? Or just a stern talking to, reminding me to put in the work since I designed it this way and picked out all the roses?

Heres my lazy ideas so far...

1) Wait until February to see if any cold snaps come through and defoliate for me.

2) Hit them with the most powerful leaf blower we have to blow off at least some of the leaves and hope the canes don’t snap since I have most against a fence.

3) Just don’t defoliate and suffer the consequences of possible pests and disease on all the surrounding roses.

4) Defoliate the lower areas and hope for the best.

What say the experts?

Comments (44)

  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Roses I want to be lazy with (Although I’m winter pruning and defoliating the roses I have them with)

    Felicitie et Perpetue (I have with Iceberg)

    Climbing Cecile Brunner (I have with Nahema)

    Veilchenblau (I have with Blue Girl, trained as a climber and Artic Ice / The Little Prince)

    Violette (I have with Dark Desire, trained as a climber, and Coulterville Red)

    Fortuniana (I have with Iceberg)

    Castro Breen Red Climber, maybe it’s Bloomfield Courage (I have with Florentina)

    Henri Martin (I have with Don Juan)

    Peggy Martin (I have already decided these are just going to stay au naturale)

    ... So what are the opinions?

  • Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
    6 years ago

    Good thread. I saw a few videos that they peel off leaves and do removing Deadwood and cut above outer pointing eye buds. Good question ?

    Do you have to remove all the leaves ? It did ran in my mind but when I saw they were at very cold places makes me wonder also. So, it will be interesting to see what others have to say.

    Jin

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
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  • Vicissitudezz
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Cori Ann, I recommend a trial. By which I mean that you try defoliating (at least the easy to reach bits) a select few roses to see if it really makes a difference. You might want to choose the roses that you think would benefit the most, and just trial those, or you might want to trial 2-3 roses that are close to each other, or I'm sure you can come up with a good experiment based on what you already know about your roses' locations and past performance.

    Keep us posted!

    Virginia

    PS I missed your bit about asking the experts- sorry!

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked Vicissitudezz
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    6 years ago

    I have read creating dormancy by leaf removal could help once bloomers bloom in warmer zones where they otherwise would/might not bloom. Here, the once bloomers seem to bloom, so I am thinking only of removing unsightly old leaves if they haven't already fallen off. Sorry I can't be more help, Cori Ann.

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    6 years ago

    Paul Zimmerman wrote about using a lime-sulfur-oil spray for defoliation in Winter.

    http://www.finegardening.com/tip-stripping-winter-leaves-large-roses?tid=143

    Normally, such a mix used during the growing season is advised to be sprayed on overcast days, then rinsed off after some period of time under an hour. Leaving it on longer, or spraying during full-sun conditions, would burn the foliage, causing the rose to defoliate. Well, when you want the rose to defoliate, you just spray on a full-sun day and leave it. New leaves will then push off any remaining old foliage later.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked AquaEyes 7a NJ
  • jacqueline9CA
    6 years ago

    There are, unfortunately, many many things "rose experts" say we MUST do with roses, and IMO in our climate most of them are not necessary. This CERTAINLY pertains to defoliating roses, once blooming or otherwise. I only take leaves off if: a) they are dead - i.e. yellow or brown, or b) they are diseased (i.e. covered in rust or blackspot), and then only if I can reach them. I have a once blooming banksia lutea (Yellow Lady Banks Rose), and an almost once blooming Cl Cecile Brunner, and a once blooming Belle Portugaise. All of them are 3 stories tall, and 15-20 feet wide, climbing up my house. They are between 25 and 15 years old. I have NEVER defoliated any of them - they are evergreen in our climate. It would take 5 people over a solid week, up on 30ft+ ladders, to do so. They all bloom magnificently every Spring. I also do not defoliate any of my other once blooming roses, and they all do fine and bloom great.

    So, if you read something somewhere that says you MUST do something to your roses which is obviously ridiculous, just don't do it, and see what happens. (I note that the article you posted a link to thinks all once blooming roses are grafted - that is a clue.).

    Jackie

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked jacqueline9CA
  • jerijen
    6 years ago

    Well stated, Jackie.

    In fact, since strong Santa Ana winds are a regular part of our fall weather cycle, I can pretty much count on the fact that the wind will come up, and old and worn foliage will be blown from here to kingdom-come. Healthy new leaves hang on, which is fine.

    I do, typically, remove rusted foliage. But there again, if a rose is going to rust badly enough to need that done more than once a year, it's probably not going to stay here, long term.

  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    6 years ago

    I, too, don't think it's really necessary where you are. Here, however, just about any rose with China ancestry will have "zombie leaves" from the previous year when new leaves are emerging. These "zombie leaves" are often not quite dead from Winter, and so aren't quickly shed. Usually, some are still there as new leaves are unfurling and growing. And they do keep a host of blackspot spores. True, blackspot spores are in the air, and will hit the gardens here eventually, but getting rid of last year's leaves will delay that.

    Last year, previously healthy Teas I brought out from Winter storage had leaves which were so green that I was tempted to leave them be. Well, they were damaged enough to be attacked by mildew, which then spread to new leaves, and I had to defoliate them, anyway. This year, they're getting stripped right when they come out.

    If you live where it doesn't get cold enough for rose foliage to get damaged, you can probably get by without it. If you don't do it here, it's just plain ugly.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked AquaEyes 7a NJ
  • nikthegreek
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    DO NOT spray limesulphur when evergreens are around or if you value your lawn. No matter if it is a warm or chilly day, sunny or not, this will burn the foliage. It can also burn non dormant budeyes. Limesulphur is a good thing to use in cold climates where most everything but conifers loose their leaves anyway.

    I do defoliate my few european OGR once bloomers and my HTs during pruning time. I don't bother with all the other ones. I would never defoliate Teas or Chinas in my climate since they tend to grow for 12 months here. Yes, in spring my Teas and Chinas do have a mixture of new and ageing yellow leaves but I consider this to be a normal part of their lifecycle.

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked nikthegreek
  • nikthegreek
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I also defoliate my SdlM and its alter ego KPV. At this time of year, while they continue to put on new growth, their leaves are in a bad state. Atypical BS or maybe cercospora which does not result in leaf yellowing and fall. So I defoliate them just for aesthetic reasons. Last year they bloomed while being completely defoliated.. a strange sight indeed..

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked nikthegreek
  • AquaEyes 7a NJ
    6 years ago

    "Last year they bloomed while being completely defoliated.. a strange sight indeed.."

    Yep, that's how a few of mine looked, except that had I defoliated them right when I brought them out, they'd have re-foliated by the first flush. But those "zombie leaves" were dead enough to be infected, while alive enough to not be shed by themselves.

    Different ways for different places.

    :-)

    ~Christopher

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  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    I appreciate all of the different opinions, advice and experiences.

    I started defoliating my roses last year and I really liked the result, so while I do agree that it’s not really necessary (is anything in life?), I like how healthy the roses were and how huge the blooms were after resting, so I plan to keep it up even though it’s a lot of work.

    The once blooming climbers were all brand spanking new though, so I didn’t need to defoliate them. And defoliating a climber without pruning is such a pain! There’s so much more to do!

    I like your idea of an experiment Virginia. I think I will defoliate all the others except the hardest ones... namely Climbing Cecile Brunner, Felicitie et Perpetue, Fortuniana and Peggy Martin.

    I think I can handle the others.

    I will report back with photos!

  • nikthegreek
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Defoliating naturally evergreen roses (in one's climate) like CB, FeP, Fort, the banksias, SdMLV, Belle Portugaise, Iceberg, Teas and China's are in my climate seems unnatural.

  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Oh it totally is Nik. You are 100% right. But so is plucking eyebrows and shaving legs. I do those too. ;-)

  • catspa_zone9sunset14
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    FYI, Cori Ann, last year was a VERY unusual year in these parts, with those vast amounts of rain. My roses down here were also very healthy, had humungous leaves and blooms, and bloomed exceedingly well all year long. However, I have never defoliated a rose of any sort (too many, too huge), except for some cases of extreme rust on smaller roses where I just couldn't take it anymore... So, the excellent performance of your roses this past year after defoliation may just be a coincidence. But, looking forward to hearing how they do in future years under your regime!

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked catspa_zone9sunset14
  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Good point. Could be a good reason for me to defoliate this year especially though, since the conditions were right for all the undesirables to flourish too... pests, infection, etc.

    I will keep you updated with photos as time goes on. :-)

  • Kippy
    6 years ago
    I did like the results of a pruning and leaf removal from a modern but old climber. Plant never looked better.

    But my old once bloomers? No way! Besides they do a pretty good job of dropping old leaves anyway. I would just take up their leaves and add a fresh layer of mulch and call it good.

    I heard about using an organic horticultural oil to aid in burning them off, but I don’t want to burn the canes too so I will not be touching my once bloomers.... one of which is already starting to bloom
    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked Kippy
  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Jealous! I do miss SoCal weather sometimes. But I can have peaches here in NorCal easier, so it’s a good trade. ;-) I would never attempt to defoliate Peggy Martin. Although I am curious how all those smooth canes would look under there. Here it is this morning.

    I do still have to retrain it, but I enjoy training that one

    But with my other once bloomers, I did my little experiment so let’s see what happens. I even got on a roll and defoliated the lower portions of the tough ones.

    Let’s see what happens here in the spring.

    I like a more structured garden than most I think. Just a preference for my own yard, not others.

    Many would say I shouldn’t have even touched them for another 1-3 years, but that seems like general advice, not taking into account my actual garden, climate, design, etc., so I’m not following that rule. If I were to not train or prune climbers for their first few years I’m sure they would all grow to be HUGE, fantastic, intimidating and almost unmanageable. Not to Jackie’s size of course, but trying to be! That would look quite funny with a single story rancher.

    ;-)

    I’m hoping a cold snap and wind gets a few more of Felicitie et Perpetue’s foliage. Or maybe my leaf blower when I start the clean up at the base. ;-)

    Please excuse the mess. I cleaned up some, but am waiting to be totally done with the yard before I bust out the blower and really clean up.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    6 years ago

    Leaves are not a mess in my yard. I know you run a tight ship Cori Ann. I might do the opposite and dump bags of leaves (from the neighbors) in my yard after putting my organic fertilizer and manure on. I call it mulching in place.

  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Not a bad idea! I have done that in the front with my azaleas, but back here I do run a tight ship.

    But that said, and although I do the extra work of defoliating, there are several gardening steps I simply skip (like fertilizer and manure). ;-)

  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Intermingling Florentina, Castro Breen Red Climber (maybe Bloomfield Courage), Seven Sisters (who knows what it really is since so many go by this name, but that’s what it was sold to me as), and Sombreiul. A few Pink Supreme Flower Carpet roses at the bottom there.

    But I am the winter. And now they must sleep. ;-)

    The defoliating deed on all is done (except the ones I’m skipping). I will keep you updated with photos of what happens.

  • sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Cori ann, your yard is looking great. I really love your fencing with the lattice on the top. That's the type of fencing I would put up if I decide to fence. Its 4 acres so it will be a chore lol. Do you know if yours is redwood, treated pine, or cedar?

    Sheila, We have massive oaks and messy needle dropping pines on our property. I rake nothing lol. It breaks down, especially after the lawn mower goes over it a few times (riding mower) Its great for our sandy soil and probably the main reason we have way better soil than our neighbors who rake up every leaf. Plus its free :) We probably couldn't get away with it on a small inner city lot but we are zoned rural residential.

    ~Sjn

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thanks Sultry! I should remember what it is since we just redid half of it last year, but I don’t. We got a deal on the material and labor and think it’s redwood. I strung up eyehooks and wires along the whole thing for training. Although I think I’m going to upgrade the wires to chains for Peggy Martin.

    I think if I had 4 acres I would go with a simple post and hogwire fence and train things straight to that, unless I really wanted privacy. :-)

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    6 years ago

    I always find split-rail suits so many styles, especially with a large property to enclose. You can attach a covered chainlink of some sort if you need addition protection (which also gives more area to easily attach roses!)

  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Can you feel my anticipation? Here’s an update of just a few...

    Violette

    Souv du Docteur Jamain

    Castro Breen Red Climber

    Defoliating does seem to allow more light in and the healthy new growth is a happy sight. The new foliage looks extremely healthy. It was a lot of work, but I’m really happy I defoliated the ones I chose, especially because of the intermingling/climbing design I have them. I will do my best to remember this next year when I’m whining about not wanting to do it again. ;-)

  • jc_7a_MiddleTN
    5 years ago

    Bump.


    How did this work out, Cori Ann?

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    5 years ago

    Seriously, have you seen pics of her garden JC? LOL! :-) ! Although I'm sure her garden would look spectacular even without this measure.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Cori Ann said it helped. It is nice to get a fresh start with foliage every Spring. I started doing it here too, because old, last year's foliage did not always fall off and detracted from the bush's beauty. When I lived cold that defoliating happened naturally.

  • jc_7a_MiddleTN
    5 years ago

    Lol VV, I ask so many questions BECAUSE I’ve seen everyone’s gardens!

    Is that specific to once blooming climbers and ramblers?

    Or any rose during winter/dormancy?

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    5 years ago

    jc, I think she did this because her roses don't actually go dormant. I took all the leaves off mine that didn't fall naturally and all of mine are repeat bloomers..

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    5 years ago

    In warm climates the old ugly leaves can hang on, vs cold where they fall off naturally with dormancy.

  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Hi JC. Yes, Sheila and Vaporvac are right. :-) In my climate, roses don’t go dormant or defoliate on their own. I started defoliating 2 years ago after I read that a few others in warm climates tried it. The idea is that it forces dormancy, since during the short time the rose doesn’t have leaves it can’t do photosynthesis. I have noticed that forcing dormancy seems to help the roses become their best in the spring.

    Taking off old leaves also seems to help stop any diseases. I don’t spray and have a mostly permaculture/organic garden.

    I also noticed it makes it easier to properly train climbers. It makes it easier to see where the main canes vs lateral canes are.

    Its not hard at all to defoliate nonclimbing roses after pruning, but defoliating climbing roses is A LOT of work. I’m sure there will be some years that I don’t get to it. It’s not absolutely necessary, but it does seem to help them get to their full potential, so whenever I have the time and energy I will keep it up. :-)


  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Here’s photos of one of the same area this year. Intermingling Florentina, Castro Breen Red Climber (maybe Bloomfield Courage), and Seven Sisters.


  • jc_7a_MiddleTN
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Wow, those do look great!

    I might try arranging my new climbers this winter after all their leaves fall off.

    Thanks for explaining everything.

  • catspa_zone9sunset14
    5 years ago

    All well and good, but I would "double-dog-dare" anyone who wants to try to defoliate 'Apricot Glow'! It is one of the wickedest masses of thorns of any climber in the garden -- you hardly want to go near the thing to prune it and train it, much less to pull leaves off. Not worth the quarts of blood that would be lost, in my opinion!

    Here is a photo of this year's 'Apricot Glow' bloom -- it bloomed pretty much all of May, and the last blooms are fading just now. Mr. and Mrs. Scrub Jay's nest hidden in the top of the arbor did succeed and they are currently scrambling every daylight hour to feed the two chicks. It was certainly a good, well-fortified choice of location for a nest!





    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked catspa_zone9sunset14
  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Great point Catspat. There are some that just aren’t worth the effort!

    I didn’t defoliate Peggy Martin. Even though it’s mainly thornless, there was just too much of it. I also didn’t completely defoliate Felicite et Perpetue. Curved thorns. Lots of canes. No thanks!

    And I’m sure there will be some years in the future that I’m too busy or don’t have the energy, so I just won’t defoliate any of them. When I can though, it does seem to really help.

  • User
    5 years ago

    Defoliating a huge climbing rose is indeed a daunting prospect. However this year's cold snap in February (late for here) seems to have done it for me,and it does seem that both Clbg. Old Blush and Souv. de Mme. L. Viennot derived health benefits from losing those "zombie leaves". I could indeed see trying to find a way to defoliate especially Clbg Old Blush in the future, becuase i so love this rose's early spring flush, but the aftermath is always rather ghastly for a time as the rose drops everything in exhaustion , and tends to be covered in rather sever p-mildew.

    Paul Zimmerman's idea is good, but I do wonder: since I would be wanting to defoliate in winter, would the sun be strong enough to burn off the zombie leaves? And, no, I guess would not want to kill off new budeyes -or would I? because Clbg. OB IS a China. In my climate I suspect that, since it can't rest completely during winter by going dormant,it just is exhausted by June. It is too big to defoliate manually...

  • jerijen
    5 years ago

    Years ago, I was at a meeting where a lady asked Dr. Tommy Cairns whether she had to defoliate her huge climbing spring-blooming rose . . . He kept saying "Of course." And she kept saying: "But it's HUGE!"
    Finally, Tommy said: "What rose IS this?"
    The lady said: "Cl. Cecile Brunner."
    Tommy said: "Oh, then just leave it alone"

    I have subsequently followed Tommy's advice on this.

    =======

    And, yes. "Castro-Breen Red Climber" is 'Bloomfield Courage.'


  • jerijen
    5 years ago

    Bart -- my Chinas bloom their best in the winter. In real summer heat, they can go dormant. So, I wouldn't even think about defoliating a China.

  • User
    5 years ago

    Thanks for your comment, Jeri. You are so knowledgeable about roses,; I myself am pretty lame on characteristics of the various types and families.But my climate is quite different from yours, methinks. I only get maybe one or two blooms in my entire rose garden in winter, and those are flukes. There is a "real winter" here, generally speaking, unlike in a zone 10,it just isn't harsh enough to put some of the roses to sleep for a bit. It's funny; there's a summer dormancy produced by heat and drought,in which roses can't bloom, and also this winter "dormancy",but neither one is enough to cause some of the roses to lose their leaves,which is why I'm toying with the idea of trying to induce leaf-loss artificially,to see if it would improve health.

  • Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy
    Original Author
    5 years ago

    Bart I didn’t defoliated my China’s, but I did partially defoliate and prune some of my teas, which was against recommendation. I did it because it just seemed like they just needed it and I went with my gut on that. It has turned out well for me, but it could just be the types of teas I have.

    Oh wait! I did partially defoliate and prune one type of China, Archduke Charles. It was another that just really seemed like it would benefit from it.

    The ones I pruned and partially defoliated all responded very well. It’s a risk if you try it though!

  • jerijen
    5 years ago

    If we all lived in one physical neighborhood, and planted the same roses, we'd all need to give them the same care. But we don't. Location, Location, Location.

    LOL . . .

    Cori Ann - H0uzz violated my privacy thanked jerijen
  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    5 years ago

    I had some ugly leaves that had sunburned and were damaged by transplant stress and it did feel great to get them gone.