I LOVE my espresso floors, but had to "like" Gina's post because she said old farts.

I remember hearing the dog comment, or something to that effect in regard to Rubio mono coat.

BTW, I think your floors are stunning! I would not want to screw them up.

water spot will discolor that Rubio finish. there's a long thread(s) on here about it. if you have a dog, their saliva will turn the spots black (drool spots).

so, forgo the Rubio and use something else. My advice would be to find a floor finisher that will use what you want.

Buy prefinished. And it’s a fad you will regret. Natural wood never goes out of style.

Sophie, your reponse is confusing. So, buy prefinished so you will regret it?

I think she's saying this white was gray coloring is a fad. You probably should find a floor finisher who is an 'artist' with stains and such. if you have some spare boards have them do some sample to show you a weathered gray stain. I used the Varathane weathered gray on some white oak planks I used for a desk top. I suppose you could do the gray first and then give a slight white wash stain (General Finishes has it) to get that look.

You will regret that color floor. Give it s plain clear coat and move on.

Just to be clear – we are talking about quarter sawn white oak as pictured below? This is an expensive species and cut of wood prized for its beautiful grain - not liking the idea of concealing it with a nearly opaque white finish.

I would suggest either a) decide you like white enough to go ahead with it regardless of whether it will go out of fashion or not (once that white gets in the pores of the wood there is no coming back) or b) decide on an approach that best brings out the qualities of the wood itself and aim for something classic that will last you through the decades (you did say you were amenable to a medium toned wood)

Re which will go out of fashion faster – well, I always figure that once a cheap version of something shows up in Menards, that means its on its way out. Ive been around long enough to know that wood/ wood tone never goes out of style, though the exact tone of wood and the wood stain products definitely do go in and out of fashion. So that being the case I would again suggest sticking with something within the range of a wood tone, idea being that can be more easily changed later on. Oak has large deep pores and once white gets in there you cant really get it out.

The look of fumed oak might be something to look into – I don’t think you can actually fume it after its been installed, but the smoky aged color can be replicated in other ways. There are various approaches that best bring out the rays and flecks of the wood – ask your finisher or woodworkers forum.

I say all this as someone generally not opposed to doing whitewashing and stuff to wood - just in this case its not a good idea!

I'm not opposed to painting some wood, but doing a white-wash thing to quarter-sawn oak is a crime.

Painting wood would be more of a crime unless it's some really ugly wood or can't achieve a suitable color without painting. With the process I outlined above one can still see color variations and grain, like in Beth's picture. That said, a wood purist would almost always rather see more of the natural beauty.

"once that white gets in the pores of the wood there is no coming back"

This is incorrect. While some white may remain in the crack filler, the white finish color is not hard to remove. If it were plain sawn Red Oak going from dark to light you would have a point. Dark stain can penetrate deeply into the coarser grain of Red Oak. The white finish doesn't penetrate as deeply and White Oak is less porous. Going from light to dark is generally more successful than dark to light but I try to emphasize that either are preferable to replacement.

"decide on an approach that best brings out the qualities of the wood itself and aim for something classic that will last you through the decades (you did say you were amenable to a medium toned wood)"

I agree that in many instances a timeless approach is attractive but consider that floors require periodic refinishing. If one has a solid Oak it would be expected to last many, many decades, possibly through successive owners who may have differing opinions on what's desirable. That's part of the beauty of wood compared to other finishes. It can be refinished to be current with trends and desires.

Johnson Floor, Ive done woodworking/refinishing many yrs and have done battle with white paint in the pores and crevices more times than I care to remember.... if your product is less heavy and more reversible - great! But it should be noted that there are a finite no. of sandings in a floor so why not think more long term and plan accordingly?

Just to clarify, my advice/suggestion/preference - if it was mine - a very light finish only to accentuate the sublime quality of the wood. No heavy bodied stain - white OR dark - that obscures the grain or substantially changes the color .

"Wood purist" -???? Uh no, I do love wood, but at the same time.... I have some quite ugly kitchen floor wood that will be painted. Again we are talking quarter sawn oak here - not a cheapo lower grade knotty wood like in Beth's pic.

The white flooring is a fade. It has already been seen in Europe for several years and has made it's way into the HIGHLY fashionable areas of N. America (expensive/trendy areas of the East and West Coasts of USA and Canada). It looks to be a trend that will die off faster than gray. Gray was super hot for 7-10 years. I doubt if white floors will last much longer than 5 years total.

If you want super light floors, then go for it with the Rubio. But beware. The dog drool has been known to turn DARK BROWN (almost black) and is almost impossible to remove without some serious "hands and knees" abrasion + spot coating the areas. This is true throughout all Rubio lines - not just white.

To prevent this, a polyurethane would be more in keeping with what you have (you have dogs so polyurethane would be the better option than hard wax oils). But you must be aware that several types of polyurethanes will YELLOW or amber. Ooops. That will turn your pretty white floors an ugly "cigarette stain" yellow. Not fun.

Which means you are down to working with water based polyurethanes. But OH - WAIT! Water based polyurethanes on White Oak cause TANNIN PULL....which turns a slight yellow. Oh dear. Here we are again with a white floor that turned a little yellow. Sigh.

To do this, you will need a professional who is FULLY TRAINED in turning White Oak "white" and then using a SEALANT over top and then 2-3 coats of WATER BASED polyurethane! Whew! Hard stuff to line up!

In essence, you want a trendy looking floor with a wood that *can be turned white but is often so BADLY MESSED UP that you will be forced into a colour that you don't want (after several attempts = multiple sand/refinish attempts and lots of swearing and name calling).

This colour takes HUGE AMOUNTS OF TRAINING - especially on White Oak. I would REALLY LOOK HARD at how much time/money/effort you want to throw at this floor and how long you want that colour to last.

A European Oak (which is known to be 3 times as expensive as White Oak) would have been the better choice because it NATURALLY turns silver as it ages/exposed to sunlight. But it is too late for that.

I would recommend working with the skill level of your installer + the natural tendencies of the oak. If you try to force it, it could back fire on your.

Buyer beware of the limitations of the material and the professional working the material. Good luck.

The darker stains can be applied with a lighter touch so that you get a dramatic floor without the curse of a "dark floor" (Jacobean isn't as dark as you think...nor is the dark walnut but the Ebony can be the same as painting the floor black).

I've seen a straight Jacobean stain that turned out beautifully - and not as dark as you think. It has hints of green in it which may not be to your liking but can work very well depending on your personal tastes. Jacobean is often used to tone down red oak to get rid of the pink. You may not need it because you have white oak.

I like the mid-tone appearance of the Jacobean. I'm not fond of the darkness of the Ebony. I know that dark walnut+Jacobean has worked very well in the past. It is darker than Jacobean but with hints of warmer browns. That has often been the preferred look.

Remember: your floors will be DARKER than you think. As you add stain to the ENTIRE project, it will darken the rooms. Once all the rooms are dark, the floor will appear darker = it feels darker than you thought it would become.

So....go with the stain colour that you LIKE and TRUST that the floor (once completely stained) will be darker than your stain patch (produced by the professional + 1 coat of finish over it for your inspection).

You are going to look at the colour patches on your floor and FEEL like you want it a LITTLE DARKER. Do NOT do it. Leave it. Trust that the colour (once applied) will be the depth you want. Go with the undertones that appeal to you.

If you feel like you want it A LOT DARKER....then ask for a mix of ebony to be added and try again. But beware. Ebony turns a mid-tone floor to a DARK FLOOR and then you get all the cleaning hassles of a dark floor.

What I've discovered about people who want a darker floor is this: they want the DRAMATIC EFFECT of the floor without the HELL that comes with maintaining the dark floor. If that is your situation, go ahead and look at the Jacobean+dark walnut (or variations thereof). Go with the COLOURS/TONES that you like the best and then TRUST that the overall effects will be darker than the colour patch. Trust me. It works out better than you think.

Get the test patches down and then live through the 5 different lighting effects throughout the day. Chose the one that you like the best in all 5 lighting situations (early morning; midday; early afternoon; evening and then nighttime with full artificial lighting).

Send us photos.

I live in NYC, go to open houses all the time, I do not see anyone at any time saying a light wood floor is a fad, much less a passing one. These are in multi million dollar units, brownstones, etc.

The one thing everyone does groan and fuss about is if they're too orange.

Current Resident - Over the years we have used either DuraSeal or Bona white pickling stains, never paint. I suspect paint would be less prone to absorbing in the wood and even the standard stains are rather chalky and sit on the surface more than thinner consistency stains. The experience you've had, were they with Red Oak and on flooring? Generally the first pass with the big machine takes off the surface finish and most of the color. If you're trying to hand sand Red Oak trim and such I can see your point.

Yes, every floor has a finite life. My point was that floors fade, get worn, get damaged and the like, necessitating refinishing every 10 to 20 years (or more if you're lucky). The only exception would be a wax finish or possibly one of the new oil finishes that can be refurbished without sanding. Even then, damage or a change of rugs or furniture placement can trigger the need to refinish. We are currently replacing a wax finished floor I used to help wax when I was a kid, over 40 years ago. One of my own floors was refinished in 2015. My father laid it in 1973 but it hadn't looked great in years. These are more the exception than the rule, at least around here.

I've done this as an owner since 1985 and worked more in the field before spending some time in the military so I suppose I take a longer term view than some. It may be incrementally harder to change a floor color than to change a paint color but it's still something temporary.

SJ McCarthy - Whether white floors are a fad depends on your experience. My mom started here in 1972 and we were doing white floors then. The popularity waxes and wanes. As with many fashions. what was once old can become new again. There always seems to be a crop of people that either thinks it's new and different or likes it since it goes with their design concept. They don't care if others consider it trendy or dated.

Everything else you wrote is pretty much spot on. After bleaching it's not a bad idea to neutralize the bleach (even though it's supposed to be self neutralizing) by applying a coat of white vinegar. If it's prone to turn that sickly yellow green tone, you can usually tell before pickling. The first coat of sealer needs to be applied sparingly to avoid tannin discoloration (no drips, puddles or runs). We use the Bona ClassicSeal then abrade with a nylon pad with 150 grit tape strips applied. This helps smooth the grain raise from the bleaching process. We usually don't buff between bleaching and pickling. It makes the floor whiter, like when water popping, and eliminates a potential source of inconsistency at the edges and corners.

Sorry to be a pain about this but working at a fourth generation wood floor company in SE Florida, I probably have as much experience with white floors as anyone on Houzz.

We are in Titusville FL Johnson Flooring Co. so that's why I was thinking a white color would be nice especially in FL but the problem is getting my person to do the job I want.

He put an example of bona white down and it sat for about 15 minutes then he topped it with Bona satin so I could see how the satin topcoat looked but then the whole thing just changed to the same color of the natural floor.

Is that because he should have left the white stain to dry before putting the satin on and it would have remained whiter?

Probably not. Without the bleaching process, white pickling comes out looking more of a raw wood color. Perhaps you could persuade him to do the Bona pickle, a couple coats of NordicSeal and a couple topcoats. If he's hesitant to bleach, maybe he's familiar with water popping before staining. That would make it somewhat whiter also.

Another question. We have in our contract for 1 coat of stain and 3 coats of poly. Wouldn't it take a lot more time to do that then 1 coat of rubio?

Also knowing I have the 1 coat of stain and 3 coats of poly already priced in, how much more per sq ft. should it cost to have the floor with a pre coat, white stain and 3 of poly?

I'm pretty disappointed that I can't get my color that I want and I'm thinking maybe I should try to find someone who is experienced in doing a whiter stain the way I want and is not such a Rubio fanatic that they won't do anything else....

Rubio - material PLUS labour - will be roughly the same price. The SANDING requirements for Rubio are insane. It can take 2-3 times the amount of effort and attention to detail for the Rubio application than it does the polyurethane. So comparing the two has more to do with labor than it does material costs. It works out in the wash.

If you are frustrated with your refinisher's preferences, then it is best to look around. Just make sure you pay the currently professional for work already done.

I don't know if I asked my question correctly, how much more per sq ft. should it cost to have the floor with a pre coat, white stain and 3 coats of poly versus stain and 3 coats of poly?

Question 2 is how much would it cost to get me to the white look with 3 coats of poly?

I take it you are looking for a COMPARATIVE number. In other words, you have been given number "A" and you are looking for number "B" so that you can compare A to B to see if the extra is worth it.

I know that in my area, the average cost for sand/refinish = $5/sf. To do the bleaching + everything else is $7+ per square foot (some as high as $9/sf if things are difficult). I guess that adds $2/sf and up. But you will only get a range. The final amount will depend on who you use, the area where you live and the number of professionals capable of doing the work.

I suggest you go ahead and bring in a few more bids to get a ball park figure. I suggest you work with an NWFA Certified Sand/Refinisher. They should have all the education (which is voluntary BTW) to get this done. They are the "big boys" on the block and they pull in the best incomes because they have the best skill set. They set the "top bar" for your area.

You can find professionals in your area by using the following link:

www.nwfa.org

Have fun. This is going to cost more with the bleaching because of the final desired colour may take MULTIPLE bleach applications = more work = more money.

Mackey's MPI Inc - is that your floor in the OP? I would LOVE to have that in my living room.

Sorry, away from the computer over the weekend.

If your finisher priced a stain and 3 poly he may be figuring something darker than natural and oil poly so the calculation might not be straightforward. I'll just quote what I would charge. We use dust pickup machinery on all jobs and are in an area where standards are quite high. Natural with oil poly is $3.40 per square foot. Standard stain & oil poly is $3.70/foot. Add $0.30/ft. to either of these to switch from oil poly to Bona Mega. White pickle and Bona Mega HD Clear is $4.30/foot. Bleach, pickle & clear urethane is $5.20/foot. If I was to water pop and pickle it would probably be $4.80/foot since it would add a coat of ClassicSeal before the Mega. For simple Rubio stain I charge $3.80/foot. If we're doing anything extra like wire brushing or applying precolor or active stain before oiling, the cost would be higher. On any of these I might add a surcharge of sorts to offset the cost of making samples, if applicable. For Rubio or another oil finish I might also add extra to purchase oil sample bottles if a customer requires a lot of sample options. Labor to sand for Rubio or any other oil finish really isn't much more than a standard stain. It might be an extra 5% to 10% at the end, mostly making sure all the edges and corners are uniform. It might show scratches a little more readily, require extra cleaning before application and extra time to remove all(!) of the oil but after one coat, you're done.

Thanks everyone for your help. Since I couldn't get my white I had to go with my second choice of darker jacobean/ebony and I do like the color but have a question...Is it normal for there to be this rough raised grain look with little bubbles in the area where there is grain and to see that through 3 coats of poly?

Also there are some areas where it looks like the floor has a oily swirl on it, just

a few and when you rub the poly it is underneath so it looks streaky there?

Here is a pic of what I'm talking about with the raised grain/bubble look.

Ideally that texture would have been removed by buffing between coats.

They did buff however the ac heat/ac was left off so no dust would get in the finish and it was about 39 degrees out at the time...Did that cause the grain to raise or how can this be fixed? This is supposedly the 3rd coat of water based poly, course it's a new house so I wasn't there to see it done cause he wouldn't let us in.

If I was using waterborne finish after water pop and stain I would apply a coat of BonaSeal then buff with a nylon pad with strips of 150 grit sandpaper tape applied to the pad. This smooth the floor without taking too much off or making swirls. Then I'd apply the fist coat of urethane and hopefully only need to buff with an abrasive nylon pad before the last coat. In my experience, waterborne finish doesn't cover buffer swirls as well as oil poly so you have to be careful not to buff too aggressively before the final coat. Also the water based finish could potentially make the wood fibers swell. That was a problem with early water finishes. It would pop the grain, you'd buff and expose wood fibers, then the next coat would pop the grain again and so on. If it's not too evident from a standing position I might be inclined to leave it. If it is, it would probably have to be screened then buffed with an abrasive pad. It might also work to buff with the abrasive pad with a couple strips of 150 or 180 grit sandpaper tape. Is there an area this could be tried in?

Do you mean to screen and buff and no more poly on top after?

It depends on WHEN they buffed. As Johnson Flooring pointed out, there are often two buffing events when working with a water based finish. The first one happens after the water pop+stain+sealant and then the 2nd occurs before the last coat is put down.

This can be dealt with by doing a buff and a 4rth coat. And yes...water based polyurethanes raise the grain more than oil based...which is why sealants are often used to prevent this happening too much.

Sealants stop tannin pull, they allow the real finish to grab MUCH better AND they prevent the grain from swelling too much.

Ask the finisher how many buffs they did and if they used a sealant or not. And the temperature needed to be MUCH CLOSER to 70 F. Much, much closer. The water based finishes get wonky around about 45 F or colder. And 39 F certainly ranks as "colder".

At 39 F, the finisher is ASKING for problems. Sorry but that is a problem. And wood flooring really needs to stick to the "living conditions" of a home. That is: when a human can walk around in jeans+t-shirt+ socks and not feel cold. At 39 F, that is TOO COLD for wood flooring to be dealt with.

Temperatures this low are a BIG no-no.

Sorry. For some reason I didn't get your reply. If the floor is buffed to remove the grain raise texture, a coat of urethane would be required.

Thanks to you both for your replies Johnson flooring and SJ McCarthy! They are fixing some areas where there were imperfections in the work and screening and refinishing with another layer of poly today so hopefully that will take care of the problem.

Is there some additional problems that might arise because of the original poly being put on when it was so cold outside?

It's the indoor temp that's important. I imagine they turned the heat off to reduce the amount of air moving around during drying. Good luck!

They put another coat on and it's still the same raised grain texture in a couple of the rooms. There are a few large 18 inch "scratches"with a raised edge one right near the fireplace in the front room. Maybe it's called checking I'm not sure. But it's obvious from 20 feet away when you walk in the front door

. Some pieces where it looks like there is a glued in chip of wood on top of the wood plank. And a plank in the main hallway where there is separation on the end and side.

Here is a pic of the work in progress. Can you tell if they didn't prep the floor right from these pics?

No, can't tell from pictures but it does look better. Those lines are from the water popping. Water enters fractures in the wood and it swells. Unless they flake up and cause an issue like snagging I would leave them alone. Almost anything you do will make them worse.

So there is no way to fix that fracture? It is really long and visible when entering the house, looks like we have a long 18"gash in the new floors. The picture I attached doesn't really show how bad it looks. What about the boards with the space right in the main hall?

Wood shrinks and swells in the presence and absence of moisture. You have to accept wood for being wood, or put in plastic.

That’s what you get when you do dark. Everything shows that much more than on a light floor. And it will continue to show. Which is why I said clear coat it. Floors that are in the middle colorwise are the easiest to live with.

Again, you have to ask HOW MANY times they "buffed" and at what point in the application. And the INTERIOR temperature/humidity are important as well. The exterior temperature may not come into play SO LONG AS the interior temperatures/humidity are inside the "happy-happy" range.

How long was the heat turned off? What was the indoor temperature when the APPLIED the poly? What was the humidity BEFORE they applied the poly?

All of these questions need to be asked and answered before anyone can give more advice.

We see this on bleached floors since bleach is applied heavier and gets two coats. With a white floor that looks somewhat artificial, we cut out the flaws between coats, fill them and apply a coat. IMO, using this strategy on your dark floor would show up worse than the flaw. Is there a similar flaw in an area that's less conspicuous? If so, ask the floor person to attempt a repair so you can determine whether it would be wise to do the same in the conspicuous area. If it looks worse, the only fix is to replace the board(s) and refinish the entire floor. Next time around it could happen on a few different boards.

This issue happens more to rift and quarter sawn Oak. Small splits run parallel to the surface of the boards and the medullary rays that run from the center of the tree outward. On a plain sawn board, splits would run from top to bottom and not cause an issue with water popping or bleaching because they swell side to side, not upwards. This is a vexing problem that is hard to address since it happens to flooring that's been sanded and is ready to finish. Quite often you don't even see it until coats of urethane are being applied.

SJ McCarthy The humidity was 35 to 40%, temperature inside was at 71, they buffed it 3 times the heat was turned off all day.

Sophie Wheeler Yes I agree about the darker floor but I did want light and he couldn't do it so I had to make another pick. I've already had medium floors and they are just too blase couldn't do them again. Raw wood wasn't the look we were going for, but I appreciate your insight :)

Latest update, they are in the process of sanding the whole floor down, replacing about 20 boards and going to refinish. They had water popped the floor, used minwax 50/50 jacobean and ebony with a pallman finish the first time. What should I be insisting they do differently this time to avoid these problems?

Pallman is fine. There are two things I would change:

1. Humidity - it is at the lower end of acceptable. Even though 35% is allowed, it is still going to show some problems with splitting and checking. Please get it up to 45% - 50%. That will really, really, really help the wood look health and beautiful. This should be done SLOWLY. About 5% increase every 7 days or so.

2. Ditch the Minwax. It is low-end DIY stuff. If Pallmant makes stains, then get them to work with Pallman stains. Get them to redo the colour patches for you to decide on your colour...again going with a coat of finish over the stain patch so that you can see the depth of colour.

That's it. They are stepping up and fixing a finish that was really rough. They buffed three times (I'm assuming the buffing was between every coat) and yet they still came up with a rough finish. So they are doing it over. Very nice. You have an stand-up group of guys there.

If they won't switch out the Minwax - it probably isn't a huge deal. Many refinishers like to work with Minwax because the stains have remained the same for DECADES. I'm not a fan, but oil based stains work with oil based finishes all the time.

The HUMIDITY is going to be your challenge as a homeowner. If you can bump it up to 45%, you will have a much happier floor. Much, much happier floor.

You may get others boards that split the second time around. Inspect the floor scrupulously right after the first coat of urethane is applied. If caught before the final two coats, a split could be carefully cut out, filled and covered by the urethane.

SJ McCarthy "The HUMIDITY is going to be your challenge as a homeowner."

It seems crazy to me that there are such restrictions on wood floors. What did people do "back in the day"? Before humidifiers and dehumidifiers? Did they just live with the "unhappy" floors? And if they did, why is it such a big deal?

Hi everyone, They finally finished my floors after all of these months waiting with an empty house and now they look worse than the first time. Could you weigh in on my other thread please? https://www.houzz.com/discussions/hardwood-flooring-stain-continuity-swirl-nail-hole-problems-dsvw-vd~5303173