Welcome!!

First off - do you have more in depth dimensions? My current guesstimate is that the aisle with the stove is ~36", the sink is ~40" and behind the island about 38"....but it'd be better to know for sure =)

What are you thoughts about the dining room? With a family of 4 (Link to Building Forum Post) you want at least seating for that many... is it important to have it closed off from the kitchen of could they be open to each other?

Also, hello from a (former) Saskatchewanian! =D

Overall, it's a nice layout! Several thoughts:

- The kitchen looks functional, and you have light on two sides (nice); however, I don't like the refrigerator's placement. I'd be willing to give up some counter space to bring the refrigerator into the main work area ... and keep what's currently the refrigerator area as your "aside area", which I think is very important in a kitchen: A place to set your coffee pot, cookie jar, a bowl of fruit, drinks or desserts during a party. Another problem with the refrigerator's placement: You get drinks often ... you want your refrigerator to be near a cabinet full of drinking glasses ... and you want that cabinet to be near the dishwasher.

- Note the pathway from entering the house to the pantry. Could this be rearranged so that you have a doorway (or just a pass-through) between the mudroom and the pantry? OR make the lockers into a bench-under-windows with storage underneath ... which would allow for a mudroom-dining r Also, do some research on having a freezer in a pantry ... you need ventilation, and that may be tough with the freezer in the back corner.

A couple thoughts on other areas of the house -- small things:

- Pocket doors tend to break when they are heavily used ... and a powder room door is going to be heavily used. I know what you're thinking: You don't want an inswing, nor do you want a door that will block the hallway. Since only you and your spouse will be frequenting the master bedroom hallway, I'd go with an outswing door and figure it won't be a problem very often.

- Winders on stairs are downright dangerous; your whole foot can't fit on the stair. You can have a plain landing here instead of those pie-shaped steps.

- If you move the master bedroom door "down" just a foot, the doorswing will "stay" in the bitty hallway and won't be a part of your bedroom. Do consider how you'll bring a large dresser or headboard through that 90 degree angle ... I'd fix the problem by putting a sliding glass door on that back wall. It'd also be a great fire safety item.

- If you add just one skimpy foot of width to your master closet, you could have a whole wall of shelves -- you'd double your storage. Could be great for folded sweaters or shoes. - I'd bump the master bath sink to the middle or the other end of the vanity. Why? So the user won't be standing in the door's swing space.

- One last small thing: I'd either center the master sink OR bump it to the other end of the vanity. Why? Because as it's shown now, the sink user is standing in the door's swing.

Can you put lower cabinets under that window wall? With drawers, it would be wonderful storage! It's a long way to your pantry, so you're going to want to use your uppers for food rather than constantly be waling to the pantry for a can of soup.

If your kitchen is actually 11 ft wide, you do NOT have room for an island at all. My own kitchen is this width and I bought an island cart from Ikea that is approximately 17" x 40" <http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/80035920/>; I painted the base and oiled the butcher block top. It's invaluable in my kitchen which is too wide to be a galley kitchen but not wide enough for an island. And the price was right!

Congrats on your new home to be. My first thought was to switch the dining room and kitchen spaces. I can just picture a nice big dining room table with family enjoying a meal looking at the best views. Entertaining would be able to include the living room as well.

The other reason is that the dining room seems like it will be very claustrophobic. I don’t like feeling trapped in a room especially when filled with several people. With the chairs occupied, I think it will be too tight to comfortably walk around. Plus I wouldn’t like only one way to enter and exit. I’d be eating fast so that I could get out in a more open space asap, but that might just be my weird issues talking. Haha!

With kitchen in the dining room space instead, you could put the sink under the windows facing the front yard. I like being able to see who pulls up in my yard from a main living space. It would also make more sense to connect somehow to the mudroom for bringing in the groceries to the kitchen and pantry.

I know others will be able to help you more. There are some great kitchen and floor plan minds here that I’m confident will be able to help you plan an awesome home!

Some preliminary thoughts on the kitchen/dining/mudroom/laundry area... I'm not sure there's enough space behind the island seating... and it's still a bit tight for aisles in the kitchen itself.

I think the biggest effect from a small change is moving the back door out of the kitchen and onto the west-facing wall in the living room. That frees up that entire southern wall - I think it's a great spot for your sink (enjoy that view!) and then there's also room for the fridge.

Welcome Skookumoose!

I saw your Building a Home thread b/f seeing this one. Many very good points were brought up on that thread...including the narrow Dining Room the path to the Pantry, the fact that the freezer cannot open fully where it's currently placed, etc.

Doing the "math", your Kitchen is not wide enough at 11'4" to accommodate an island with seating. You end up with 33" and 36" aisles on opposite sides of the island...not nearly enough room!

Aisles...

A note about aisle measurements...many people, including KDs, architects, and builders measure incorrectly. Aisles are measured to/from the items that stick out the farthest into the aisle -- counter edges, appliance handles, etc. They are not measured cabinet-to-cabinet. Cabinet depth measurements do not include doors or drawer fronts nor do they include counter overhangs. So in most cases, when you see aisle measurements on a plan, there's a good chance the aisles are at least 3" narrower than the stated measurement...so, for example, 42" is really 39".

For reference,

• Doors/drawer fronts sit about 1" in front of the cabinets
• Counters usually overhang cabinets around 1.5" -- extending about 1/2" beyond the doors -- this usually covers at least part of the knobs/pulls on the doors & drawer fronts
• That means perimeter cabs/counters are 25.5" deep, not 24".

Minimum Aisle widths...

• One-person and always a one-person work aisle with no other traffic on the aisle: 42"
• Two or more person aisle and/or other traffic: 48"
• Behind seating
  -- No counters, appliances, or minimal traffic: 36" to slide by, 44" to walk by
  -- Some traffic but still no counters or appliances: 48"
  -- Counters and/or appliances or major traffic: 54"
• From your description of your family on the Building a Home thread, you fall into the two or more person aisle, so the aisles b/w the island and perimeter counters/appliances should be 48".
• Assuming those are windows and not doors on the "top" wall of the Kitchen, your island needs 36" to 44" behind it, with 44" recommended.

Seating at an island or peninsula....

• Each seat needs a minimum of 24" of linear space. So, if an island is 6' along one side, the most you can seat is 3.
• Seating overhangs should be a minimum of 15" of clear leg/knee space -- and that's for short to average height families. If your family is tall (say, over 6' or so), then try to plan for at least a couple of seats with and 18-inch overhang. BTW...the seating overhang is clear space, after accounting for the decorative doors/end panels on the back of the island cabinets.
• This means your island needs to be at least 41.5" deep:
  1.5" overhang on the front of the island + 24" deep cabinets + 1" for the decorative door/end panel on the back of the cabinets + 15" overhang = 41.5"
• Skimping on overhangs does no good when you're short on space and trying to shoehorn an island into a space. People will take up the same amount of room, their butts will just stick out into the aisle farther -- in fact, equal to the distance they would have if there was sufficient overhang! Why? Because the human body can be squished only so much. With insufficient overhang, a person will have to do one of the following:
  -- Lean farther forward to reach the counter <-- the most likely scenario
  -- Straddle the cabinets
  -- Sit sideways (and, then, needing more like 36" of linear space per seat!)
  None of these positions is comfortable for more than a few minutes!

Table sizes...

• As with island/peninsula seating, plan for a minimum of 24" per seat. There are some rumblings out there about increasing this minimum to 30" for table seating. For now, though, let's work with 24".
• Leg space is 18" for table-height seating...but more is better, especially with children - it minimizes the "mom, his knee is touching mine!" complaints during dinner! Then, when they begin to reach their adult size (around middle school age for), you also have room for longer legs.
• A wrinkle in table measurements that you often do not have with island/peninsula seating is that you also have seats on the ends. Those seats also need leg room, leg room that is not shared with the seats on the sides -- two people cannot occupy the same space. So, if you have seats on the end, you need to accommodate the leg space for those seats as well. With a 42" wide table, you can probably reduce the need for leg room by 3" to 6" on the ends b/c of the extra width -- but I would not reduce it any more than that.
• So, for a table for 6 with 2 seats on the long side and 1 on each end, plan for a minimum of 72" long x 42" wide for a growing family (and a couple of friends over for dinner). (A bit longer would be nice...)

Next, let's talk about Kitchen workflow. Work in Kitchens generally follows the following flow:

Refrigerator --> Sink --> Workspace --> Range --> Table (or cleanup)

Or, as a GWer once put it: Ice. Water. Stone. Fire.

You want your appliances and counterspace to follow that flow. If you look at the layout you posted, it's Refrigerator --> Range --> Workspace --> Sink. A bit off.

There are a couple of ways to fix that. One is to put a prep sink in the island. The other is to fiddle with the layout to get a better workflow.

Normally, I'd ask for a fully measured layout of the space. However, if this is a new build, are things still flexible? Things like window sizes, door locations/sizes, etc.

If they are not flexible, then we do need better measurements. Making assumptions can lead to designs that don't work b/c of constraints on the space -- even a few inches can make or break a design in some cases!

So, my first question is: Where are you flexible?

Next, is the house size finalized? Can you, for example, make the home a bit deeper so get more space in both the Kitchen and the Dining Room?

Right now, you cannot fit an island with seating in your Kitchen. The "math":

25.5" perimeter +

41.5" deep island =

====================

67"

Your Kitchen is 11'4" deep = 136"

That means you have 136" - 67" = 69" to split b/w the two aisles on either side of the island. If you take the 48" b/w the island and range wall, you are left with 21" b/w the island and windows!

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What you need:

25.5" perimeter +

48" aisle +

41.5" deep island +

44" aisle behind the island =

========================

159"

You are short 159" - 136" = 23" or approx 2'

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Could another 2' be added to the depth of the house to accommodate the island with seating?

I would push it "up" those 2' (toward the "top" of the plan; into the backyard space).

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Dining Room...

There should be 44" around the table. So:

44" aisle + 42" table + 44" aisle = 130" = 10'10"

The Dining Room on the plan is 9'3" deep, you need another 1'7".

Can yet another 2' be added? I'd either:

Push it "down" 2' from the left wall of the Laundry Room to the right wall of the Dining Room. It would give you another 2' in the laundry room as well...something I think you need anyway.

OR

Add 4' to the back of the Kitchen and take 2' for the Kitchen and 2' for the Dining Room.

What size dog do you have? The "Kennel" looks rather small.

How do you plan to use the Kennel? I wouldn't want to confine a dog to that small amount of space for anything more than a short amount of time.

(We have 2 medium-size dogs (standard poodles, around 45 pounds each), so I could be overestimating the amount of Kennel space you need.)

Pantry / Closet / Dining Room access...

Consider eliminating the front closet and opening that space up as a door way from the Foyer to the DR with a door to the pantry as well. That would make it a much shorter walk for bringing grocery bags into the pantry as well as give you two ways in/out of the Dining Room.

Maybe try to fit a closet in the Mudroom.

Something like this:

No change to the Family Room, stairs, Master BR/BA, the Powder Room, or the Porch. The only change to the Mudroom is to increase the size of the Kennel.

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If it were my Kitchen, I'd add a prep sink to the island to increase functionality and to fix the workflow issue.

How about something like this?

I suggest the 72" window on the right wall be counter-height (36" off the finished floor).

If you make the "top" wall windows floor-to-ceiling, you will maximize the view as well as light. Combine them with a counter-height window on the right wall, and you will also have a much more open and airy feel.

Note: Window wall cabinets & counters are 3" deeper than standard. This gives you extra room behind the sink to minimize splashing and provide extra space for the faucet. It also provides extra storage and deeper workspace.

• 28.5"D counters (instead of 25.5")
• 27"D base cabs
• 15"D upper cabs
• If your cabinetmaker does not provide deeper base cabs, then pull them out 3" from the wall when they are installed.

Layout:

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Zone Map:

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Workflow:

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Thank you all for your wonderful, thoughtful feedback. I will try to respond to everyone, but please forgive me if I miss someone :)

Based on everyone's comments, I have taken a much closer look at dimensions and agree there just needs to be more real estate to achieve what I want. We are going to see about pushing the back wall of the kitchen out flush with the living room, which I think will give us the space we need to expand the dining room and make room for an island in the kitchen.

I have gone back and forth about flipping the kitchen and the dining room, and the plans have gone through a number of revisions that reflect this. After much thought, I have decided I prefer it at the back of the house. I spend much of my time in the kitchen and look forward to cooking while enjoying the views. When eating together in the dining room, we are typically involved in conversation and not paying much attention to the views, so I think this works better for us.

I do like the idea of a bit of separation between the kitchen and the dining room - I tend to like to cook by myself and as such, will send the kids to the dining room to work on homework or colouring. In reviewing all the comments, my husband actually piped up and said he did not like how separated the kitchen was from the dining room, so I think we are going to look for a compromise here. Maybe a larger throughway between the two, while still keeping the wall part way across.

I must say I love buehl's version of the hall from the dining room to the main hallway! This solves a longstanding issue I've had with the lack of circulation in this area of the house and the bottleneck into the dining room.

damiarain - bonus points for Saskatchewan! And I do like the idea of moving the main kitchen elements to the outside walls.

Mrs. Pete - the fridge does seem like its out in no man's land.

I think I am almost willing to let the freezer-in-the-pantry idea die once and for all (as my husband says, there is plenty of room for a large chest freezer in the basement).

I am a card-carrying member of Team I Hate Pocket Doors, so the powder room door was already circled in red - thank you for the great thoughts on adding an outswing door.

I hadn't even noticed the wedge stairs! Great catch! Those have now received the red circle as well :)

Moving the master doorway down - another great catch! I will have to think on getting furniture in. I don't like doors to the outdoors in bedrooms (security), so a slider wouldn't work for us.

Good points around the size of the master closet and location of ensuite sink. I am feeling like we may end up rotating this area to allow for the ensuite (and therefore a window) to be at the front of the house, so I will keep those in mind during the re-design.

Anglophilia - great minds think alike! I solved a similar problem in our last home (kitchen too wide to be a galley/too small for an island) with a "pimped out" Ikea island cart :) It was awesome!

rebunky - great input! I have definitely flip flopped about dining room/kitchen placement a couple times. I think I am going to have to just rely on the barking dogs to alert me to someone driving up to the house - they're pretty reliable security :)

buehl - thank you SO much for all the great info and input. I have printed much of it off to take to our next design meeting! Luckily we are still at the point where an eraser is the only tool needed to change things :) And yes - the dog kennel as drawn is uselessly small!

suzanne_sl - YES!! The dog wash/boot wash is on my wishlist and I think my husband may have found the solution. We are going to enlarge the kennel area (which will house the dog's plastic crate) and make this into exactly what you described (tiled bottom/half wall with drain and shower wand). When not in use, the dog's kennel will just sit in the tiled area. The kennel can then be easily moved out of the way when the wash station needs to be used.

Cindy - I think making the wall flush will indeed give us the extra real estate we need in the kitchen and dining room. Thank you!

This adds about a foot or more total. I don't have exact measurements.

The dining room is now about 10' 3" which gives you enough space to move around. The kitchen is now 12' deep.

What I did is do a cased opening into the kitchen to open it up more so it would be easier to move from one space to the other and so when you're in the dining room you don't feel like you're boxed into a corner.

Even with the extra space, you don't have room for an island. Only a moveable tricked out cart. LOL

I moved the door into the mudroom over and moved the opening from the mudroom to the entry up a bit. I was able to do that because of the extra space added to the dining/kitchen area.

By moving it up, the pantry stays the same size as you had it as does the coat closet.

I flipped the bench, lockers and kennel to the outside wall and this now allows an entry from the mudroom to the pantry. This allows for shallow cabinets also on the opposite side of the benches. Maybe a nice broom closet or a narrow cabinet to drop keys, etc?

I moved the freezer to the shelf wall so that it now will open freely. I'd still rethink having a freezer in the pantry though.

I moved the fridge to the left of the sink. Now your kitchen follows the best practices of fridge to sink to prep to cooking.

Lastly the door to the backyard was moved to the living room west wall.

Instead of a pocket door into the pantry you can easily make it a swinging door or a regular door.

Love the ideas from buehl and cpartist - you have come to the right place! I have a question you might want to ask your builder/architect: are there zoning regulations about the swing on exterior doors in your area? In my area we swing in, so that doors aren't blocked by snow, or other items. (I believe in some areas they have to swing out, for wind reasons maybe.) It's just a question to ask so that as you refine your plans, you are counting on the right space for your back door.

Here’s a tweak of Cpartist’s plan bumping the back wall back flush with LR. I think that is a good idea. I definitely think you could get a real island in if you did that. I moved the LR window down in order to fit a French door same size as windows for symmetry but that only opens on the right side. I moved the fridge closer to the dining room for easier access during meals. Prep sink on island. Nixed freezer in pantry because i think you said it could go elsewhere. I have no clue on dimensions here, but I’m thinking you can get about a 5.5-6 ft island and keep the 42” walkways?

Love the plan cpartist did 3 comments back.... but I would open that wall more for the dining room - at 9'3" a large table 42" across only leaves about 34 1/2" space around - that means a bit snug for anyone stuck in the middle... and the other direction would also need to incorporate a sideboard or china hutch depth....

Congrats on your new home! Good luck!

You guys are amazing! I definitely came to the right place. I have all your wonderful options and tweaks printed off to take to the design meeting tomorrow.

cpartist - I do love the walk through pantry and I am feeling good about the tricked out cart instead of the island! :) I feel like this floor plan really reflects a lot of our original wish list - thank you!

chicagoans - good question about the exterior doors. Our present house in the same area has two in-swing exterior doors. I will be sure to ask.

rebunky - I appreciate the options!

Debbi Washburn - the size of the dining room is so important! No one wants to be that squished person in the middle. I think if the space is too small, it will not get used as intended. Thank you!

First I'm glad you like it and I was able to help

the size of the dining room is so important! No one wants to be that squished person in the middle. I think if the space is too small, it will not get used as intended. Thank you!

That's why I made the dining room 10'3" at a minimum. That's 123"

123" - 42" dining table = 81" divided by 2 = 40.5" on each side of the table.

Hey I just checked out your other building home thread. You might think about a window above the toilet in the kid’s bathroom upstairs. There’s nothing else on that exterior elevation but who stinkin’ cares, it’s on the side if I’m understanding right? The hour long showers and other smells in that bathroom with no window? Haha, just trust me....no! Ask me how I know with three teenagers, two were boys. We had a bath without a window.

Sorry, adding one more thought. I love Cpartist’s layout as well, but just not the rolling cart, no matter how tricked out! Haha! My personal home layout is that exact plan and it totally works great. But, I have a permanent island with seating. I’m just not a fan of the cart if you potentially have room for a regular island. Plus, prepping on the island is desirable due to a view. Maybe a tv, fireplace, living room with the family that includes the windows with the best views. That’s why a cart facing the wall or dining room doesn’t really appeal to me.

I actually agree with rebunky that if you're willing to increase your square footage, then you should absolutely add the built in island and if so, then I prefer rebunky's layout.

I was thinking that you didn't want to add too much more square footage so only added the bare minimum to make the kitchen and dining room workable.

My first kitchen was exactly the layout I designed for you without even a cart in the middle and honestly it was and still has been the best and easiest kitchen I ever worked in. It just flowed so well.

It is a bit ironic that chicagoans is the one that made the erroneous assumption that there is a regulation requiring exit doors to swing in, since the Iroquois Theatre fire happened on December 30, 1903, in Chicago, Illinois. This is what, immediately after, led to the entire US including language in their building codes to require all doors and exit doors to swing OUT, in the direction of exit travel. Doors swinging in on residential single family dwellings is merely an exception to the rule for convenience, not a mandatory requirement.

https://chicagocode.org/13-160-250/

Likewise, doors swinging out in hurricane zones is merely the easiest way to satisfy code requirements of wind, water, and debris penetration, not a requirement of itself.

The other consideration is whether there is an immediate step down outside the door, as a door can not swing over a step. R311.2 & R311.3

https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/IRC2015/chapter-3-building-planning

How many doors do you actually have to get out of at the same time to shovel the porches? If you are really in dire straits, there are always the emergency escape and rescue openings...