Oh, and middle class best interests....they have no idea about the middle class. Washington DC is not like middle America. They have their enclaves and high dollar jobs and no clue about how most of America really lives.

In the end, middle class Americans will pay $5.1 billion more in taxes and the wealthy will pay $5.3 billion less. Maybe the ACA is far from perfect but its better than nothing and can be improved. Without it, my son would not have insurance.

Hubby and I are in the same boat, dedtired, without the subsidies from the ACA, we will just flat out not have insurance.

This bill is a give-away to corporations and the wealthy. Joe Average is going to jump up and down because he will save $100 on his taxes. Big Whoop! Just wait. The tax cuts for the wealthy are permanent, but Joe's are scheduled to fade away. Millions lose health care insurance. ALL of this puts all of US further in the hole, running up the deficit.

We have people making their careers as members of Congress. (Don't you love hearing a senator brag that he has "forty years experience here"? This is not what was intended. I suggest laws prohibiting all campaigning earlier than three months prior to an election. (Other nations do this.) Maybe 'ordinary people' could run for office and be elected. Maybe we would not have law makers who are beholden to the people who finance their campaigns. (Do not expect support for this law from the media, who will lose advertising revenue and the fodder they chew on endlessly.)

The tax bill will save us money, and my friends and family will benefit from it also. Doubling the standard deduction means that most people will not need to itemize deductions. I definitely believe that the middle class, for the most part, will get a tax break.

The Senators and Congressmen have modest salaries, given the fact that they must maintain homes in their home state, as well as in the DC area (which is ridiculously high on housing). I would like to see their salaries raised, but with them subjected to all laws that "we the people" must live by. That means no special treatment! No gifts from lobbyists, no insider trading, no large speaking fees, no special health care or retirement packages, etc. Plus, they should be required to work a 40-hour-week like the rest of the country. Congress is in sessions less than 140 days each year, whereas the average American worker works about 240 days per year!

Nancy Pelosi is worth well over $100 million, and a lot of that was obtained through insider stock trading--which Martha Stewart went to prison over. That is so unfair!!

It truly is time to "drain the swamp", and I wish we had term limits. Congressman John Conyers has represented Detroit, MI, for 52 years, and look at the shape it's in! It is ridiculous to have this Nation ruled by people who should be retired.

I just hope the people who voted for Trump and still defend him will still be happy when they can't afford insurance and their taxes are all messed up. You voted for him. Enjoy the results because a lot of people are going to get screwed

It’s like I’ve said before, by the time Frumpy is finished with this country, (unless we’re nuked off the face of the earth first of course) every single person, whether they voted for him or not, will be negatively affected by his agenda in some way. And wait until one of them complains to me about their “whoa’s” because I will literally get in their face and say YOU helped to make this freaking bed, so sleep in it and keep your damn mouth shut!

Wanda, You say “The Senators and Congressmen have modest salaries, given the fact that they must maintain homes in their home state, as well as in the DC area (which is ridiculously high on housing)‘“

how is it, then, that if they weren’t millionaires before they got to Congress, they became millionaires while in Congress? Paul Ryan is a perfect example. He needed Social Security benefits to complete his education and now he’s worth millions. A modest salary didn’t get him there.

I just hope the people who voted for Trump and still defend him will still be happy when they can't afford insurance and their taxes are all messed up.

"Happy" isn't even in sight with binoculars on my hope list for them....

Regarding the insurance mandate,many younger people choose to pay the penalty because its still cheaper than insurance.

Even though I have good health insurance through my employer,it agitated me that the government requires people to be insured. To me it was a con to get more people with to support the people without. Expanding welfare. Enough us enough. A HUGE overhaul of the healthcare industry,welfare system,and tax plan is in order. And it will never happen. For the rest of time it will be a back and forth between 2 extremes. One side wants doesn't want to help anyone, i suppose with the hope that people in poverty will eventually starve to death, and the other wants to keep people in poverty forever by enabling them and coddling them and not holding them accountable for their own decisions while rewarding them for continuing to make bad decisions . Lord help us all.

What especially makes me angry is that the corporate tax cut is permanent, but the individual ones are set to expire in 2025. That means if a democrat wins in 2024, they will be faced with the tax reduction expiration and will be blamed for higher taxes. Hopefully he'll be out in 2020, so it won't come to that.

I can't believe Trump had the audacity to say that he will lose a lot of money with this bill. I guess he figures he's safe from rebuttal since he won't release his tax returns.

I don't like that the government requires insurance either, but it's the reality. Emergency rooms are obligated to treat people without insurance, and if they can't pay, the tax payers do. If people who choose not to get insurance could sign a waiver saying they don't want emergency care, that could work instead of an insurance mandate, but it's not exactly ethical to let someone die because they are poor.

People go to emergency rooms for non emergencies all the time because they know they are obligated to treat them. And they know they are not going to pay. That's not ethical either.

We can't stop freeloaders anywhere in life. We could expand a system that provides health insurance as a human right and is funded by ALL. The whole concept of insurance requires wide participation to lower the cost to each person.

Mine. Mine. Mine. That's a two year old with no idea of how Public Health benefits her. (And no idea what not providing it costs her indirectly.)

Our family has always had health insurance, and paid all our bills. But with this tax bill and the resulting additional costs, that may not last. Maybe we'll soon be among those that has to show up at emergency rooms without coverage to handle non-emergencies--and emergencies. How is forcing people into being unable to pay their bills an improvement? And you are right about one thing, amylou--a family member developing health problems was a horrible "decision".

Marilyn C: With ACA you pick your doctors and no one waits months for an appointment. Go to the web sites and fill out the questionnaire and see if see if your doctor accepts it or call them and ask what plans they accept. You may qualify for a subsidy to help pay for the plan. No one should be without health care.

Gyr falcon. Don't play so dense. I am referring to actual blatantly irresponsible life decisions that are a drain on taxpayer resources,not illnesses that are beyond ones control. You can pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. Some people love to be offended.

When I was 19 I was uninsured and had a car accident that ran up a 17000 dollar hospital bill. I just paid that off a few years ago. Emphasis on "I PAID. " I wasn't making a ton of money,but it was my bill, and have an ingrained sense of dignity that would be wounded if someone else paid that for me. Almost no one has that anymore. Most,if not all hospitals call and offer to set up a payment plan. Mine was 25 dollars a month. I paid more as I was able. Some people are not interested in paying.

No chisue,we can't stop all freeloaders. But we can at least give the appearance that there is something WRONG with it. Some breeder getting her 9th pregnancy paid for does not benefit me in the least. Freeloaders have made it nearly impossible for normal people to get affordable health insurance,and it is them who have taken valuable tax funded resources from people who actually NEED them. The elderly,the mentally ill, the disabled,people who are actually unable to work,not just unwilling. My sympathy is for them.

If only there was a tax bill that allowed tax payers to choose where their own money went,but that's another thing that will never happen.

Increasing the number of people that cannot pay their own way is not a good solution to a "freeloader problem" in the mind of this "dense" individual. I'm not offended--I'm angry. And rightly so.

Cannot or will not? There is a difference. The latter directly and indirectly causes the former. You should be angry about that,not about someone pointing it out.

There should be affordable health insurance options. Welfare reform is a requirement for that to happen. Punishing those who do pay their own way by forcing them to pay for people who just won't (not CAN'T) is ridiculous.

It is our duty as humans to care for those who CANT care for themselves. Those who WONT care for themselves and their responsibilities should be ashamed.

Here's what happens when you show up at the ER without insurance.....

You get treated for the immediate problem, and you will get a bill for the ER services. If you do not pay the bill, it will go to collections. If you do not pay the bill at that time, you will have a major blow to your credit rating, and get dunning calls from the creditor until you file for bankruptcy.

No one goes to the ER and doesn't pay who CAN pay. No one with money in the bank goes that route.

You don't need good credit when all of your needs,including a roof over your head,food for you and your kids ,and the phone that you changed the number on so the creditors cant bother you,is paid for by someone else.

This is not exaggerated. I personally know at least a dozen women who know how to work that system from the day they pop out their first child until they die,unless there is change . Im still trying to figure out how people who use so many resources and hardly or don't work still are able to brag about 6000 dollar income tax refunds. One such aquaintance of mine(who is not even raising her own children) bought chrome rims for her car with hers last year. No shame.

Wow, what a thoughtful interesting discussion! My sister only works 4 months a year by choice. She called the other day saying that she needed money. I asked her why she is choosing to only work a few months a year. Then I said you are the architect of YOUR finances and your life is what you the architect of it designed. That didn’t go over well. I had to hear some cuss words and then she hung up on me. I don’t want to rob her of the opportunity to be independent.

What change do you suggest, amylou? There's no way to prevent people from having babies if they want them, and denying resources will harm the children.

No one goes to the ER and doesn't pay who CANNOT pay.

sushipup, did you word that the way you intended? Don't you mean : No one goes to the ER and doesn't pay who CAN pay?

I really want to tell everyone what a pleasure it is to read thoughtful, intelligent conversation! Thank you all for such great insightful thought provoking conversations.

I mostly suggest that Congress and the house,as well as the white house, should be purged and the American people should be given a do over. Not going to happen.

Welfare was set up to help people TEMPORARILY who could work until they got on their feet,or to help people who are unable to due to age,illness,disablity,etc. People used to be ashamed to need It,back when people still had personal pride. Now, it is being grossly abused. Will continue to happen.

There should be strict time limits and caps on the amount of benefits. For one,women who use Medicaid for their pre and post natal care,WIC and or food stamps should be subject to certain conditions. Mainly the condition that if you need taxpayer resources to feed and house that one child, then you should be prohibited from having anymore. If you choose to do so,you lose all benefits, and if you can't feed your children without government benefits, they are taken into government custody. If the government has to feed and otherwise pay for their needs they should be raised by people paid by the government to do so properly. No more raises for having more kids.Cruel? It may sound that way. But the outcome would be 100 percent determined by that individual who won't avail herself of the 500 different flavors of birth control available to her,many at no cost,and one that is always free:stop giving it up to men who dont protect you or themselves from a responsibilty neither of you can afford. It is cruel to deliberately raise children in poverty to benefit yourself. Chi,these women dont want babies,they want the benefits having them avail them of. No good person WANTS to bring a child into poverty. If they do,they dont deserve the chance to raise another human.

Has anyone seen the audits of the governments wasteful spending? That should be first and foremost taken care of. Despite the audits being public , no remorse or reform in site.

As for the insurance mandate,there should not be one. It's not working. The ACA is a big fat fail. It has all but forced my sister,who has a hardworking self employed contractor husband and 6 kids, to put them on All Kids, rather than pay their own way,since immediately following the ACA passing,their private premiums went up 1200 dollars a month.

A personal complaint,admittedly: I have no children, am not on any government assistance program, and am single. Why is there a GIANT 20 percent chunk coming out of my paycheck for federal taxes alone? ( that is AFTER I get my measly little refund) Meanwhile,as I reported above from personal experience, people are hardly or not working, bleed resources dry,and have no incentive to change that get massive refunds every year despite a nonexistent contribution to anything except their own whims.

Any tax plan that had been proposed in the last few administrations have either benefited the rich and/or the extremely poor. What about most of america,in the middle? So sick of the middle carrying the weight of the top and the bottom.

JMC101, you missed my point. The congressmen make modest salaries, but they make millions through corruption, high-priced speeches, insider trading, etc. We need to drain the swamp and have term limits!!

Under the ACA, my health insurance premiums have gone up 51%, and they are going up again in 2018. Remember, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor!"? Well, I lost my doctor because of ACA...got a new doctor, then lost her because of ACA. Now, there aren't enough doctors in our small town, so I receive my health care from a Nurse Practitioner. If we go to single-payer, I guess I'll just have to die because at 70 years old, I'm too old and not worthy of the available resources. We need them to take care of illegal immigrants and those too lazy to work.

This is so interesting to me. I do not belong to either political party and find tremendous faults in both parties. The generational quagmire of poverty needs educating. I come from such humble beginnings. My mother, father, sisters and brother are disgusted by my beliefs about them paying their own way and being the architects of their lives. They have SO many excuses as to why they are so stuck in poverty. If they want out they need to work, two jobs if necessary. Education, discipline and hard work are the only way out of poverty that I have ever seen. My sister doesn’t WANT to work- that is why she is poor. My mother gave all of her retirement to charity in her fifties and felt that she could replace it by her seventies- tragedy struck in many forms, that is what many people save for those types of tragedies- she didn’t because of her altruism. We all make choices and there are very real consequences to those choices, unfortunately I am seeing bad choices play out in my extended family.

Funny thing is my sister wanted money not advice. You know the saying, “The funny thing about advice is the wise don’t need it, and fools won’t heed it”. I had great advice for her, get a job and quit posting poor me memes on FB, work hard, stop smoking and drinking your hard earned money away, work more then four months a year. I decided not to give her my advice as she cussed at me and hung up.

I did send her $200 out of guilt. Did I get a thank you...NO all I got was petty resentment and jealous hatred.

Government subsidized healthcare versus shareholders and for profit corporations determining if they will pay for what my doctor and I decide to do? I'll take the government over the money grubbers anyday. We've been brainwashed in this country to believe that "free market capitalism" is the standard bearer. It's not by any stretch of the imagination when it comes to doling out health care.

sushipup, did you word that the way you intended? Don't you mean : No one goes to the ER and doesn't pay who CAN pay?

Thank you for the correction

All I know is.... that when working in a hospital many years ago, women, (unmarried) would come in, to have their 6th child, because she could get "aid to dependent children". The more you have, the more the government (taxpayers) gives them. We felt so sorry for those children they were bringing into this world. The likely-hood of them getting out of the poverty cycle they were in, is very small. It caused many of us to remain angry at a system that allows this to happen. Bad decisions, getting a reward. Nothing has changed. People are very savy on how to "work the system". Welfare should be reformed, so that those who really need help, are the ones who get it. How can it be so hard to implement a program, that prevents abuse by so many people.?

"Bad decisions, getting a reward." Foggy, this really struck a chord with me. I am far from intelligent enough to partake in any discussion, having been out of the loop for a long while now, however I agree completely. And not only about the system. It's true of anything that involves money....lots of bad decisions that (ultimately if not immediately) yield reward. While the rest of us...the ones who pay taxes on time; who tell the person in front of them that they dropped this dollar; who diligently do 9-5 so that we can take that 2 week vacation in Florida; who give to charity....Well, it's very difficult to live a "good" life when you see the simple unfairness of it all.

I don't know, I feel sorry for people who won't work and live off of the system. It's not like they are going to live a life of luxury. They will never own a home, a nice car, take nice vacations, build up any kind of decent retirement savings. I'm not jealous of them. I think it would be a stressful existence, especially when the kids are out of the house and the money is gone.

That doesn't sound like an enviable life either. She probably makes pretty good money for those 4 months, which allows the car and vacation.

Yeah,sit at home for free,eat free,free phone,free internet, for the kids and their homework is course. (Eye roll) free medical and dental care for all of them, I see why they deserve pity. I feel sorry for the tick I yanked off my dog too.

No one envies those people. I am sick of them to be frank. There is no need to envy them anyway. The current system makes it ridiculously easy to live like that. And they don't care what people think of them anyway, or else they wouldn't flaunt it so blatantly.

The money NEVER runs out. Once their uterus has fallen out from overuse,they are "disabled" or, more likely, they are " going back to school" which consists of enrolling in some online university, applying for financial aid in the form of grants for low income people that are not loans,and therefore do not have to be repaid,and pocketing the money meant for education expenses. They can be in school until the are old enough to collect social security. Again,I have seen this in motion. My first boyfriends grandmother and mother both did it. They seemed content enough. And both of them drove nice cars btw. I've been working since I was 15,bought my first car brand new at 18. It's the car I still drive. How many times have you seen a woman in front of you at the grocery store,surrounded by children,paying with a food stamp card pulled out of a nice purse, with 400 bucks worth of hair sewn in her head,or tattoos covering her body,or jewlery all over and all her kids have Jordan's on their feet. Then she packs all the free junk food into a nice car. If you haven't seen it,youve never been to a grocery store .

Everyone has anecdotal stories about those that work the system(s). None of it is right. But if people are willing to step back, set emotion aside briefly, and consider proportion, maybe they can see the whole with a different perspective. Understand I am writing in a simplistic, casual manner to make a point. I don't care if no one comments on it at all; my hope is that maybe a few will bother to look through a different window and maybe consider things they might not usually.

The overwhelming grumbling is directed towards the smaller $ thefts from the country, not the wealthy people scamming and hiding $$$$ millions from the country. How many people taking $$ have to be brought to justice to equal the damage caused by 1 person illegally taking $$,$$$,$$$? And when you crack down on the $$ scams with a broad stroke, it is the truly poor and disadvantaged people and families, including children, that unjustly get caught up in that net. The reverse does not happen; those with wealth are not going to suffer collateral damage of not having sufficient food to eat, lack of health care, etc. if the illegal activities of their peers get cracked down upon.

How many innocent poor people must suffer to gain $$ saved, when no innocent people need suffer to gain $$,$$$,$$$ saved? Does it make legal, financial, and moral sense to focus on the $$?

I am not saying to ignore anything. But can we at least view the costs of achieving goals, and how it affects those that do not deserve being harmed as a result? Most poor would definitely not choose to be poor. Yet they suffer disproportionally, and have fewer options to change their circumstances. They make an easy target, they often cannot as easily defend themselves, and they have a more difficult time even being heard.

And, many people just don't care. I wish more people would care.

Yes. This. Exactly.

Between companies like Google and Apple making billions in profit year after year and only paying 2.4% or 1% in tax on those many billions in profit, and profligate spending on expensive weapon systems such as the F35 aircraft which after a trillion dollars in sunk developments costs, and extensive problems and delays of over a decade, still isn't truly combat ready and many of the planes that have been delivered are grounded due to oxygen problems or lack of spare parts, or drug companies raising rates for existing medicines exorbitantly and often billing the government those inflated rates, compared to these the welfare mother having her 9th child is really small potatoes.

Gry_falcon--WELL-said. Some entities work very hard to keep the "little people''--that's us--from realizing/seeing how much $ is being funneled to very few people. No matter one's politics, how can anyone see this as a good thing for our country and in particular, a good thing for individuals? When we get to pay more in taxes so the large corporations and certain individuals can continue to play their games of Who Can Get The Most, will it be too late to do anything about it? Yes. Why do you think this thing was rammed through very late at night, as quickly as possible?

If we go to single-payer, I guess I'll just have to die because at 70 years old, I'm too old and not worthy of the available resources.

Why aren't you on Medicare?

I can't believe we are still hearing the old whine about a small population of Welfare Mamas, who are 'popping them out' -- while also denied contraception or abortions. Oh, to be a Welfare Queen! What a great life! Why didn't *I* think of this option? LOL

Where's the whine about corporations and their CEOs, who also pay no fair share of taxes -- while leaching on publicly funded infrastructure? Ms. Welfare's missing tax share is too small for the human eye to see, below the mountain of Mr. CEO's tax dodges.

Emergency care is super expensive. When people have no access to preventive care, they have only a hospital ER. Would you rather support cheaper preventive care for *everyone* or pay the inflated hospital bills and insurance costs that make up for unpaid ER services? You will pay, either way.

The 'let 'em rot' attitude perpetuates a financial and health concern for everyone. What disease or illness are you being exposed to by the person who makes or delivers your pizza, who stands next to you in a line, whose kid is in school with your kid?

Personally, I get a tax cut. Except I really don't need one, thanks. My nieces and nephews, and their children, are giving this to me. Is it fair? I don't think so.

Warren Buffett (who also didn't want a tax cut) and Donald Trump are going to get a very large tax cut.

In the meantime:

9 million kids get health insurance
under CHIP. Congress just let it expire.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/10/01/9-million-kids-get-health-insurance-under-chip-congress-just-let-it-expire/?utm_term=.152be69887df

That’s the Republicans we know and love jakkom! Yeah Republicans!!!

Well, kids dying won't cost them any money, but happy wall street firms will probably get them lots of money. It's disgusting.

I'm ok with small, independent businesses getting tax breaks but mega-corporations shouldn't. It's not like they are going to give everyone a raise because they save 15% a year now. It's going to go to the top.

Trickle down economics didn't work in the 80's and imo it's a blatant attempt to persuade the lower classes that giving more money to the rich at their expense will actually benefit them! What's sad is that people believe it.

From what I'm reading it will help me. Apparently there are two versions, one passed by the House and one the Senate.

For someone in a high property tax, high state tax state like mine, it is a nightmare. I itemize. Doubling the standard deduction won't help. This is a tax break for the rich and corporations.

Tax reform seems imminent — here's where Trump's tax plan will save and cost you most

There will be one bill. There is a House version and a Senate version. The Senate version is now in the House for reconciling the two versions to create the final version that will eventually become law.

I think it's interesting how most of the states with the highest taxes are solidly blue and will be penalized by this itemization change, while the lowest tax states are almost all solidly red and stand to save a lot of money.

Honestly, I wish they'd quit showing the states by "party" and show it as ONE UNITED states. It's a part of the problem. Academically speaking ok, check out tendencies. But as a people, not necessary to go around saying. There are strengths and weakness in all states.

Chi- very well said.

"Blue" states tend to be "Donor" states.
This map shows the states the most and least dependent on the federal government

Looks like rich are smiling - long term.

Poor are smiling - short term.

While the debts are growing (also long term).

We claim that we love freedom and democracy, while many who don't have such benefits yearn for them, and must wonder what on earth we think we're doing.

We had better smarten up, for, as one of your leaders said, "The price of freedom ... is eternal vigilance"

Many of us have been taking it for granted.

ole joyful

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go?