Trump's Behavior

whynottryit

Why do Trump’s supporters have such a different perception of his behavior than i do? (Mudhouse)

On another thread, Mudhouse suggested my question, "Why are Trump’s supporters so willing to turn a blind eye to his unacceptable behavior?" , should have been a different one. She is right. I hope this thread will provide an arena to seriously, honestly, and openly discuss those differences so that perhaps some of us can reach an understanding of each other. This thread is not intended to persuade or debate issues. It is intended to promote understanding, not agreement on policy or agenda. Thank you, Mudhouse.

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whynottryit

To add a bit of context to the reason for this thread, I am posting a summary from Mudhouse of comments from the thread,[Alabama Governor Supports Roy Moore Because He's a Republican.[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/alabama-governor-supports-roy-moore-because-hes-republican-dsvw-vd~4983596)

mudhouse

whynottryit: ...DJT's actions have shown that he would like to influence all of these institutions to do his bidding and bow to his will.

...Modern history has not seen a president with such disdain for the government, not the people in it, the system itself so why would he be concerned with checks and balances.

...I have never been as afraid that my grandson will not have a free country in his future as I am now. I have never, even during the Cold War, thought that this country could succumb to an authoritarian rule until now.

...I see a man that believes to be President means to be king at best, dictator at worst...a man who wants to rule not lead, who wants to be served, not serve. I don't believe he has a true understanding of what public service means.

Whynot, this is what I wish I could understand better! I think you're being sincere, and I take you at your word; you don't strike me as someone who posts dishonestly to create drama. I don't either. It's remarkable to me that you and I are watching the same president, reading the same tweets and speeches, and arriving at such completely different understandings. It's kind of interesting and scary at the same time.

I'm sure we real have differences about issues (judicial appointments, for example) and maybe I'm doing the wrong thing by setting those differences aside as I think about this. But the statements above sound more like a concern about Trump's decency as a human being, in general...his broader goals, his intent, his end game... instead of disagreements about specific policies. When I read statements like these (from you, and others here too) I get the sense there is a much bigger difference in our perceptions, and that's what I'm focused on.

The policy/issue differences between the right and left are very real. That argument and conversation is normal. But I also wonder if the two sides are disagreeing about whether or not we can afford to accept Trump's behavior (as a country) because we are interpreting his behavior in completely different ways.

I have a fuzzy idea that some of the differences in perception are caused by Trump's use of Twitter. I think it could be a big part of why the two sides are receiving two entirely different messages about who Trump is. (But I'm not sure.)

whynottryit: Yes, other presidents have been corrupt but this is a different kind of corruption. His is a corruption of the American psyche.

If you have time, can you help me understand this?

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lilacinjust


On another thread, Mudhouse suggested this is the question I should be asking instead of "Why are Trump’s supporters so willing to turn a blind eye to his unacceptable behavior?" She is right

^^^^^

I've been reading your exchanges and wonder if mudhouse actually wrote this the way you are framing it?

mudhouse has focused on perception, not turning a blind eye, which would entail perceiving bad behavior and choosing to ignore it.



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whynottryit

Mimi, perhaps I need to clarify that. I will edit the comment to do so. I was the one who asked the question about a blind eye. She re-worded the question to reflect her question. Thank you for pointing out how that can be misinterpreted.

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whynottryit

Mimi, I went back to change that but I'm not sure I was able to make it any clearer. I did try but I think you had the questions attributed to the wrong person initially.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I think it's a great question. Not sure I have an answer.

What some see as strength, independence, saying what he means, cutting through all the "DC bull", and a man of action; others see as immaturity, ignorance, shoot from the hip, lack of self control, and a dangerous, loose cannon.

Not sure how to merge those two. Except that in both cases, the common thread is "abnormal": he certainly has broken through the norms that constrain someone to expected behaviors, especially for the president of the US.

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lilacinjust

It's clearer and attributes that question to you, no mudhouse.

mudhouse wonders why our perceptions are so different.

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whynottryit

I think the way to not merge but possible understand why the difference in perception is to use specific examples of his comments and figure out why we see them the way we do. There have been a number of comments lately that should be easy to pull up and discuss the psychology of them, not the actual policy. That is where I have trouble. I'm hoping to get a better comprehension of how others see them differently.

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ojo_sigo

I have read here many times words to the effect - Trump is our president. Therefore, we should support him as anything else is unAmerican. I don't believe this to be true because if the USA is a democracy, we are not bound to support a president. However, if someone believes it is their patriotic duty to support Trump then criticism must be hard for them.

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whynottryit

Mimi, I wonder the same thing but she was able to express what I was not. I am so very grateful to her for that. Hopefully, she can help clarify many things for me, and others.

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whynottryit

Ojo, my belief is that I respect the position but not always the man. That has been true through many presidents during my lifetime. As silly as anyone may think this, I was embarrassed by the casual atmosphere that Jimmy Carter brought to the WH. His picnics and barefoot on the WH lawn attitude made me feel he was treating the place as a farmhouse rather than the democratic palace that I felt it should be. I wanted the pomp and circumstance to accompany our "royalty", democratic though it may be, because I felt other world leaders would not take him seriously at a picnic. That's just me and I get that. As a man, I think he was honorable. As a president, I think he was mediocre and was probably too nice to be effective. I was glad Nancy Reagan brought out the good china afterward. Reagan was a joke to me during the campaign. Seriously, an actor as president? Still he did some things right. He loved the country. He respected the system of government and he had a tremendous ability to lead and communicate that had not been present in a long while. His policies maybe didn't work so well, particularly his trickle down economy but I always felt he wanted to do what was right whether he accomplished it or not. This attitude of service is what I find lacking in the current administration.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I really think a lot of it has to do with media spin. DH watches fox business in the a.m. and the president they talk about is not the guy I hear about on msnbc. I was hoping to find an on-point graphic, but this one from the WaPo on the coverage of the Comey hearings illustrates it well enough.


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lilacinjust

. This attitude of service is what I find lacking in the current administration.

^^^^^^

This is perhaps a big difference in perception. I do see service and think Trump has been working hard on the agenda he ran on, and is trying to deliver on his campaign promises, despite the constant distraction from the MSM and pervasive calls for his impeachment/removal.

Trump's trip to Asia to build multilateral relations was an enormous undertaking and very important, I thought. It got very little attention and was pathetically short on detail.

If you read here, people would rather make fun of Melania's outfits than discuss what this relationship building is meant to accomplish.

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whynottryit

Thank you for that, Annie. Before we get any further, maybe we should define what is Mainstream Media. Before cable, the networks were the big three, ABC, CBS, NBC. Are these what are referred to when talking about MSM? If not, what are?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"If you read here, people would rather make fun of Melania's outfits than discuss what this relationship building is meant to accomplish."

I so loathe making fun of Melania's outfits and would really wish that conservatives here would talk about what Trump is actually trying to do. But most serious questions to them are ignored (while they respond to slights) or are deflected, leaving me to surmise that they really don't know the answers.

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Kathy

I am having a problem separating the two questions so I will follow along. My opinion is Trump supporters prefer not to focus on what Trump does or says as long as they think he is doing his best to follow their agenda. Unfortunately what he says and what he does have a huge disparity...so I think we need to separate the perception from the truth...

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whynottryit

I just checked Twitter for the first time this a.m. This was the first tweet on my feed.

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago

More

Marshawn Lynch of the NFL’s Oakland Raiders stands for the Mexican Anthem and sits down to boos for our National Anthem. Great disrespect! Next time NFL should suspend him for remainder of season. Attendance and ratings way down.

My perception of this tweet is that this is something too petty for a President to be focusing on. A president has no standing to tell any business to suspend any employee for any reason. DJT's most punishing insult (to him) is to talk about low attendance and ratings.

My reaction is why? Why is he bothering with this? Why is he taking his time to comment on this? This is a problem between the owners, the players and the fans, not a matter for Presidential oversight. The micromanaging of things out of his purview completely baffles me. So the conclusion I come to is that he either (1) has nothing better to do, i.e., he's not doing his job, (2) he thinks this is his job, i.e, he doesn't understand his job, (3) he thinks he does have or wants the power to control these events, i.e., he wants to be a monarch or dictator.

I have not seen any media coverage on this. I have only read what he wrote. I didn't even check to see if this had happened or what the circumstances were. I just went by what he wrote and this is where I wind up.

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Annie Deighnaugh

This article from "The Week" contains video clip that is on point -- a trump supporter who says (clearly to the shock of other trump supporters present) "If Jesus Christ gets down off the cross and told me Trump is with Russia, I would tell him, 'Hold on a second. I need to check with the president if it's true"

I don't think anything will alter this guy's perception of trump.


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sunflower_petal(5a)

"My perception of this tweet is that this is something too petty for a President to be focusing on. A president has no standing to tell any business to suspend any employee for any reason. DJT's most punishing insult (to him) is to talk about low attendance and ratings.

My reaction is why? Why is he bothering with this? Why is he taking his time to comment on this? This is a problem between the owners, the players and the fans, not a matter for Presidential oversight. The micromanaging of things out of his purview completely baffles me. So the conclusion I come to is that he either (1) has nothing better to do, i.e., he's not doing his job, (2) he thinks this is his job, i.e, he doesn't understand his job, (3) he thinks he does have or wants the power to control these events, i.e., he wants to be a monarch or dictator.

I have not seen any media coverage on this. I have only read what he wrote. I didn't even check to see if this had happened or what the circumstances were. I just went by what he wrote and this is where I wind up."

I would feel exactly the same way, right down to the last paragraph: I judge him on what he says first and foremost because there is no twisting his actual words.

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ojo_sigo

Mimi points to a divide in perception and to use just one example, the image of America Trump carries with him when abroad. I have not read anywhere other than what a disaster these trips are. However he returns and brags of the success without providing evidence, do people judge him by what he says or what he does?

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dandyfopp

Trump is airing their grievances.

Economic, Cultural and Racial.

As long as he keeps doing that, it isn't going to matter what he does or does not do. Donnie knows that better than anyone.


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Kathy

What I find interesting is there is at least one poster who does not participate in Twitter and see Trumps tweets first hand. They hear them second hand after some media pundit has commented. I do not think one can judge his tweets without experiencing them in context of the moment.

I think his comments on twitter are meant to deflect. All roads with Trump lead back to Russia and his tweets are dissected Daily by the media which takes the focus off the real problem which is he is under investigation for collusion with Russia. He would much rather discuss NFL or other petty issues than have the media focus on the investigation.

I can understand where supporters ignore those comments and focus on things he appears to be doing that theynagree need to be done. I also think it serves to distract them from the reason non supporters don’t trust him.

My opinion of Trump boils down to the fact that I don’t trust him because of past behavior and the lies he has told and still tells.

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azmom

"Trump's trip to Asia to build multilateral relations was an enormous undertaking and very important, I thought. It got very little attention and was pathetically short on detail."

Trump is not the first American President in building multilateral relationships with those Asian countries, it had been done by many former presidents for decades, and had good results.

The reasons his trip did not get much attention and short on details are due to his lacking of real accomplishment from the interactions and negotiations with those governments. The big pat on his own back was he asked China and Japan to bail the US out from the NK mess he provoked and created.

I am surprised American media did not cover many anti-Trump-visit protests. He is the least welcome US president, and the one with most negative opinions by people in those countries he visited. I have quite a few friends in those countries, the jokes they sent to me regarding his visits are fun for them, but embarrassing for Americans.

There are no Trumpsupporters in those countries, they see things as what showed to them, a lot by Tump himself - a crude, vulgar, shallow, immature head of state of the country that they used to admire, a man with little intellectual capacity and world stage acumen, a small man (not referring to his hands).

Watching Fox, CNN and MSNBC is not enough, watching the native languages broadcasting that tell the real stories.

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whynottryit

Since we are discussing Trump's tweets in connection with his behavior, I thought it might be helpful to post a link to them. This is a direct link to his account on Twitter.

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azmom

I don't have tweets account, not interesting in reading Trump's. He has polluted enough of TV programs and newspapers. His tweeters I have seen were directly cited by media organizations. They all sound like a kid throw tantrums, or outbursts from an insomnia clueless, cranky old man. It is no way to be a communication between a president with his people.

Remember Franklin D. Roosevelt' radio programs? What do we have now? sigh.

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Ann

I am having a problem separating the two questions so I will follow along. My opinion is Trump supporters prefer not to focus on what Trump does or says as long as they think he is doing his best to follow their agenda. Unfortunately what he says and what he does have a huge disparity...so I think we need to separate the perception from the truth...

Interesting comment and somewhat true for me. Parsing his daily tweets seems petty to me (both his tweets (petty of Trump) and the media attacks on them). To me, it's the weeds as I mentioned on the other thread. But, the forest is that he is doing his absolute best to deliver what he ran on, IMO. That part, I love. The opposition he is facing in trying to deliver is extraordinary. The hatred of the left, the attacks by the media/Hollywood/educators at every grade level, and even the challenges of those in his own party make someone like me "have his back" even more. While I don't think his day to day behavior is formal/presidential/"proper", I agree with the quoted comment above about that behavior and what he is doing here and around the world being far apart. I care about the forest far more than the trees. We'll have great disagreement about the forest because that's where our political views enter the picture. I voted for what Trump ran on and others voted for what Clinton ran on and those represent two opposing political views. I think conservative views are the "correct" views and the left thinks liberal views are the "correct" views. I get that part! We have huge differences in what we think is best for this country!

The left and the media want to keep all their focus on the trees (his tweets) and none of their focus on the forest (his several very successful (IMO) foreign trips and meetings with foreign leaders, jobs, the economy, a big drop in illegals crossing the border, etc.). Obama had the luxury of having his forest stuff praised by media/Hollywood/educators at every level and his own party. Trump is in the exact opposite position.

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whynottryit

Azmom, I merely posted the link to provide easy access to those who wanted it. Not all of his tweets are the ones that the media picks up on. Just the more "flashy" ones. The others are not great rhetoric by any means but they are typically "I went to x place, had a great audience, reception, time, etc., and a picture." However, he does use the account to talk directly to the people so I treat his tweets as he does, official statements on his positions.

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mudhouse

Whynottryit, thanks so much for this thread! I just got here and read pretty quickly. I have an appointment this morning (darn it ) so I won't be able to participate much until this afternoon. But I wanted to thank you for such a thoughtful introduction to the thread, and for starting the discussion.

You and Mimi have the questions I posed right, no worries (thanks Mimi for lending a hand.) I was trying to find a way to explain my feeling that the two sides seem to view Trump almost as two completely different people, while trying to avoid the briar patch of whether nor not Trump is "bad" and whether some of us choose to ignore it.

Whether or not Trump fails/succeeds on any point is valid of course, but once we start chasing that rabbit we're no longer talking about how we perceive him so differently, and why that is happening.

I think there is something happening here that is bigger than the more usual difference of opinion on issues and policies. Policy and issue differences are ultimately more important, but I think perceptions can drive our emotions so hard we may lose the ability to discuss policies and issues with clarity.

Annie's comment: "DH watches fox business in the a.m. and the president they talk about is not the guy I hear about on msnbc." is what I was thinking, and I do agree the media plays a role in this (cait touched on that in the other thread too.)Two different channels, two different guys.

However I think media coverage is only part of it. I've been thinking that some of us may place more weight on actions than words...or that some of us hang a lot more importance on words. So I like ojo's comment: However he returns and brags of the success without providing evidence, do people judge him by what he says or what he does?

I am also super, super interested in the tweeting question, as Kathy mentions:
I think his comments on twitter are meant to deflect. ...He would much rather discuss NFL or other petty issues than have the media focus on the investigation.

Also whynot, I love this point you made about how we all have traditions and feelings we value about the position of president: ...As silly as anyone may think this, I was embarrassed by the casual atmosphere that Jimmy Carter brought to the WH... I was glad Nancy Reagan brought out the good china afterward. And mimi's comment in the other thread about Obama's fondness for the entertainment industry ties into this question too.

Personally I think there are another twenty good threads or so in the points already presented. So right now I pretty much love everybody here for kicking it around the ideas. It's killing me that I have to run, but I'll be back.

Thank you whynottryit.

(edited "Obama's connection" with the entertainment industry to "Obama's fondness for". I wasn't implying any Weinstein-like connections!) :-)

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whynottryit

Ann, to use your metaphor, the trees make up the forest. If the trees rot, the forest ceases to exist. Even his trips are trees, not the forest. His agenda and his perception of his role in government are the forest that I am concerned with. All those steps that he is taking through that forest can either increase the health of the trees or destroy it. If he lights one tree on fire, the forest can burn. So yes, I focus on all the trees.

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whynottryit

Glad you found us, Mudhouse. I look forward to this discussion with you.

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SandyC.

Trump knew he has a base though Twitter well before he ran for office. His racist birther conspiracy, drew out many from under their rocks.

Many a Trump supporter have said they love his twitter comments!

An authoritarian uses one way communication, where they are not able to be questioned or fact checked. Putin uses state run Russia Today, Trump uses tweets and Fox cable.

Trump throws out lies , conspiracy Itheories and whataboutism ( perfected by the soviets), on a daily basis and his " base" believe him. Facts are not important to his base, bias confirmation and propaganda is.

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lilacinjust

My perception of this tweet is that this is something too petty for a President to be focusing on. A president has no standing to tell any business to suspend any employee for any reason. DJT's most punishing insult (to him) is to talk about low attendance and ratings.

My reaction is why? Why is he bothering with this? Why is he taking his time to comment on this?

^^^^

I agree on this. We know how Trump and many Americans feel about kneeling for the anthem, and we know that the NFL is not going to suspend or fine any player for doing so.

Even when in another country.


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lilacinjust

While I don't think his day to day behavior is formal/presidential/"proper", I agree with the quoted comment above about that behavior and what he is doing here and around the world being far apart. I care about the forest far more than the trees.

^^^^^

Trump's supporters aren't so focused (obsessed for some) on the window dressing.

Obama sure could deliver stirring speeches both academically and in his folksy patois, but as Shania Twain says, "That don't impress me much".

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Rina

As a foreigner, I think back to my first view of Donald Trump in action, which was of course on The Apprentice. I rather enjoyed the series because I thought the line producers and the concept people did a very good job, as did the crew. There was even a slight satirical edge in the production itself -- stopping short of heavenly choirs, but suggesting they might just be up there shuffling their sheet music. I found him quite fun in a peacock kind of way. The chest-puffing was not objectionable in a context where the apprentices were meant to think he was the ultimate anyway. It made TV sense.

But sometimes I thought uh-uh. There were in the few seasons I saw more than one occasion where a hopeful got fired or berated for admitting responsibility for a failure, or otherwise telling the truth in a situation that did not benefit their cause. He seemed to think that proved they were not worthy of being the Apprentice because it was stupid. It wasn't stupid, it was decent.

So now I see that side of his character magnified a thousandfold. The side that belittled John McCain's war record. That alone would have been enough to lose him my vote. I find it strange that a huge number of veterans did not immediately form up against him -- and I mean a number large enough to swing the election.

I hope I haven't been offensive, I know that's not what Whynot wants. I would like to hear whether and why conservative voters thought the insult to McCain might be acceptable, just to take a small example.

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Margo

. I would like to hear whether and why conservative voters thought the insult to McCain might be acceptable, just to take a small example.

No, I personally did not like that comment Trump made about McCain.

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SandyC.
Too bad Mark Burnett or whoever didn't release the tapes. There apparently were a lot of racist , sexist comments. I heard a former producer of The Apprentice interviewed and he said people would just sit with their jaws dropped open, after Trump would spew his racist comments.
Because he was the "star" nobody spoke up.
His ghost writer of Art ofThe Deal, has come out and said he is responsible for the psychopath, appearing as a legit businessman.
Trump has been around since the late seventies. He tried to reinvent himself during the Apprentice, but for all who have followed his career, his books, the hundreds of magazine article,in Vanity Fair and such, he was a sham, a pariah, a grifter con man. His first real estate deal when he was in his twenties was the Commodore Hotel in NY. He scre* ed NYC out of $885M in taxes.
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Ann

Whynot, Trump was quite clear about his agenda when running and he is trying to implement it exactly. I imagine that is a big part of the forest that concerns you. That's just exactly how I felt when Obama was busy working on his agenda. But remember, elections have consequences and Trump won this one - Obama won the last one. All those steps Trump is taking policy wise are to enact his agenda, just like with every president before him. He is unique, but each one before him was too. Having a president without previous political experience makes Trump especially unique, as well.

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ojo_sigo

I think conservative views are the "correct" views and the left thinks liberal views are the "correct"

Trump ran on rebelling against BOTH ideologies and in doing so forfeited the support a conservative could typically rely on so I don't think Ann's assessment is correct here.

As for the kneeling and the flag brouhaha, this is a tactic to gain support in the name of patriotism and is phony.

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dandyfopp

Too bad Mark Burnett or whoever didn't release the tapes. There apparently were a lot of racist , sexist comments. I heard a former producer of The Apprentice interviewed and he said people would just sit with their jaws dropped open, after Trump would spew his racist comments.
Because he was the "star" nobody spoke up.


^^

Those tapes wouldn't have mattered.

Just more behavior to ignore.

We are up to child molestation now.

Where will we be in 6 months. In another year.

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Rina

Margo -- hi babe! -- thank you for your direct reply to my question.

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Rina

Here's an almost academic question. Could anyone summarise the major points of Trump's agenda in perhaps six reasonably short sentences, numbered if possible? I mean in unemotive language. Like I could say, from where I sit, "That miserable megalomanic Mugabe who has wrecked his country must not only resign he must disappear!". Or I could say, "Mugabe should step down so that the political development of his country can continue." (If you don't know what I'm talking about, Mother Google will tell you.)

I don't mean to start an argument about the agenda. I wrote another sentence but it was sarky. Bad Rina.

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SandyC.
I agree, but I think the MSM dropped the ball on Trump. He was a media whore, who loved the limelight. The more outrageous behavior the better.
The press did not hold him accountable to his lies. He could say immigrants were flooding our borders and the anti legal immigration crowd agreed. Facts didn't matter.
He said he would throw something out on Twitter and see if there was any fallout. If it stuck with his base, he capitalized on the propaganda.
Of course his base loved it. As he told it like it was. Truth was not important as long as there was us against them , an enemy out to get them.
He always loved the media, the National Enquirer, his friend the editor, was the first to endorse him.
The National Enquirer have a lot of Trump base. Those who feel marginalized and have grievances towards the establishment. Conspiracy theories with a grain of truth are their source of news.
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Ann

Trump ran on rebelling against BOTH ideologies and in doing so forfeited the support a conservative could typically rely on so I don't think Ann's assessment is correct here.

Good point, but he is working to implement things many of the conservative candidates would have also worked for. He himself was/is quite the rebel, but many of his policies were and are rather consistent with the other Republican candidates.

ETA: I and I think other Republicans are quite pleased that he is sticking with conservative policies. Since he was so unique and had switched parties, I wasn't sure he would stick with these conservative policies - but he is and with conviction IMO.

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ojo_sigo

The comments about John Mcain were cruel and unkind as was mocking a disabled reporter, his professed attitude towards women, etc., but this is who he is and thinking that being president would change him is naive. The question remains though.

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Ann

Trump's agenda to answer Rina (the first 7 points that came to my mind):

Lower taxes

Stronger border

Supported military and law enforcement

American's first

Increased economy and jobs

Repeal of Obamacare

Take better care of our veterans


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SandyC.
Trump is not a conservative. He has no ideology. He is a charlatan, that the Republican Party sold their souls for.
Long known as a con man, fraudster, bankruptcy king in NY and Atlantic City going back to the seventies. He was a joke, a pariah in NY, for anybody that lived there or ever read a book or article knew.
Everybody needs to read Dark Money to see the rise of the far right evangelical, Kochs billionaire backers of the far far right.
Now they are called "conservatives" the heartless, soulless party , dominated by evangelical ideologues that want to defund women's and children's healthcare, defund Medicare and Medicaid for seniors, all for corporate tax cuts.
Their agenda of small government and decreased fossil fuel regulation is a farce that the middle class have fallen for. Because they are the people that will be hurt by decreasing consumer protections and health and safety regulations.
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j4c11

Personally I care about what gets done, not about his behavior. We've had plenty of smooth talkers that got nothing done.

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Ann

I totally agree J4!

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Of course there are varying perceptions, as with any politician or media personality.

There are various facets to Trump: The businessman (and his multiple bankruptciescies); the TV personality; the image he wished to project through his interviews with Stern, the gossip tidbits he passed on to the print media (disguised as his PR man), and mingling with NYC's A-listers; his personal life and history. An examination of these various areas, all Trump, give widely different views of the man -- often contradictory.

As a politician, there are his stances, which could change, and then change back again; his advisors, who may or may not have views that supported Trump's proposed programs; and his campaign itself with ties to alternative facts Breitbart, and alt-right aka white nationalism.

As president, there are his executive orders; foreign policy; cabinet choices; business conflicts of interest; nepotism; firing of Comey; a special counsel investigating Team Trump and DJT's own obstruction of justice; and continuing threats to fire Mueller . . . plus the failure to address the humanitarian disaster in Puerto Rico.

Among these many areas of focus, it is possible to construct a positive view of Trump. However, to do so means turning a blind eye to possibly disastrous aspects of Trump's presidency.

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whynottryit

j4c11

Personally I care about what gets done, not about his behavior. We've had plenty of smooth talkers that got nothing done.

I agree with that. I care about what is getting done too. However:

CHIP has been defunded and will result in millions of children losing their healthcare.

Repealing Obamacare with no replacement will result in tens of millions of people losing access to healthcare. Obamacare was/is not a free program except to the extremely poor. Premiums are paid based on income and a tax return has to be submitted to prove income.

The current tax bill being sponsored is being touted as a simpler tax plan. The corporate tax deductions are allowing for jet planes to be deducted but not college tuition which will affect millions of middle class families trying to put their kids through college.

Our tenuous connection with North Korea is being threatened by the President's tweets. His inflammatory insults are being flung in public at a very thin-skinned dictator in a culture who would rather die (or kill) than lose face in their country.

The relationship between Russia and the Trump Organization is murky at best and no tax records have been provided to help distinguish where those ties are and whether they are a threat to the country.

On his recent trip to China, the President says he "mentioned" the situation with the basketball players to the Chinese president. Frankly, he should have done more than mention but even so, the players were released. Not satisfied with the public thanks the players made at a press conference, DJT tweets that more than once that these players were not grateful and should have been left in jail. This is the behavior of a man who views his job not as public service but rather a man who needs praise and accolades for doing his job.

I have a great number of other problems with his actions but this post is long enough already. So I will submit.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

And of course liberals actually agree with most of those things (not repeal of Obamacare) that Ann listed but how those items get accomplished is another thing; we don't always agree on the implementation.

I think he also pledged to improve infrastructure which is one thing that Democrats would back him on.

And I certainly don't agree with undoing environmental regulations so that businesses can plunder the land. I guess that was not one of his promises, but it comes with the territory of Republicans.

He also promised to not profit from the presidency but that doesn't seem to be a promise he cares about keeping.

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terezosa / terriks

My perception of the tweet is that he is sowing division in our country, just as his Russian overlord wants.

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SandyC.
It's how he spreads his propaganda and lies to his bigoted and low information, Fox cable base.
It is interesting to hear his interviews over the years and how he has railed against regulations. I love the one about how America can't deal make and influence corrupt governments and politicians, like other countries can, when he was building the Panama TT.
Trump is a charlatan.
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Currently there's a subtext to Trumps tweets: Mueller.

The more outrageous the tweets, less attention to the ongoing Mueller investigations.

Team Trump knows what they have to hide, and Trump cannot pardon himself.

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whynottryit

I just saw this on Twitter:

FOX & friends‏Verified account @foxandfriends

FollowingFollowing @foxandfriends

More

President Trump to Senate GOP: Don't disappoint the American people, pass tax reform

It occurs to me that this statement may be at the heart of the problem with DJT. He did make promises. He just didn't understand/care about the details of keeping those promises. When first attempting to re-vamp healthcare, he made the statement that it was complicated, something he apparently hadn't thought much about before. I think that is maybe from where all his problems stem. He has never considered all the details. He thought he could just say, "Do this," and someone else would get it done. As long as it got done, the details didn't matter. He could just say, "I kept my promise." Unfortunately, the details do matter because it's the details that affect people's lives, not in the abstract but in a very real way. This is the disconnect I can't comprehend. Tax reform is easy to support but just because it's changed doesn't make it better. Change is not automatically good. The devil is in the details.

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ohiomom

Trump's tweets are how he communicates. No way should they be ignored or downplayed.

It's what he thinks, for heaven's sake.

......agree, it is his way of direct communication to the nation just as much as a press conference and/or state of the union address.

This is exactly who he is, no twisting of his words when they appear in print right outta his mouth.

They tell us exactly who he is, and it aint pretty.

Have seen the agenda, haven't seen the accomplishments, and for the poster above who blamed dems/media ... nope ... the republicans own it all and they are his obstacle. At this point, dems are just wall dressing.

Next

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ojo_sigo

Lower taxes - for the already wealthy

Stronger border - a wall that will only help the already wealthy

Supported military and law enforcement - that will boost the profits for the already wealthy

American's first - that will help nobody

Increased economy and jobs - won't happen

Repeal of Obamacare 0 ridiculous vengeful idea

Take better care of our veterans p and increase their number

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Rina

Thanks, Ann. I wrote a long reply but I've deleted it because it goes too much into the agendas which isn't what this discussion is really about. But if one extrapolates those points on a practical and moral basis, how likely is this man to be able to carry them out in a way that does not lead -- just for instance -- to exclusionism, the favouring of the wealthy over the poor, and responding to any call that seems likely to bring him more adulation? He's just called himself "your favourite president", after all. It requires a strong and moral character, which he has not shown signs of having, as far as I can see.

Robert Mugabe, so adored, promised his people no end of wonderful things. He led them into disaster. In fact, as a highly intelligent man he might have delivered, but his intelligence failed and his megalomania took over. He really thought he was Zimbabwe's "favourite president".

Sure I'll see lots of crossed posts, so sorry about the late response

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Rina

Okay, I must comment that I believe repealing Obamacare would not put Americans first. I think a lot of care could go into analysing any problems with it and correcting them. Its aim is to make sure Americans get health care, no matter what they earn. All Americans first is at its heart.

And taxes -- well, a good idea, if it applies to all Americans. And if it is a possibility because that would lower the amount of tax the government collects all round. The country may not be able to afford it. How about lowering taxes from the middle classes down, and raising them a bit for the wealthy and corporates? That could work.

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whynottryit

Yes, Rina, I agree. Your Mugabe, like many other popular politicians, garnered great popularity by promising his constituents their hearts' desire. Promises are easily made and, for some reason, maybe it's optimism, maybe it's desperation, but for whatever reason, those who make those promises, especially catchy vague promises, continue to gain huge support. Then reality sets in and disappointment follows. You would think we voters would learn to differentiate between the promise and the probability of the promise being kept or even possible. Apparently, it's a global, maybe human, political problem.

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ohiomom

..."repealing Obamacare would not put Americans first. I think a lot of care could go into analysing any problems with it and correcting them. Its aim is to make sure Americans get health care, no matter what they earn. All Americans first is at its heart."

Very well said.

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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

If you believe that Trump's agenda was to destroy our government, then yes, he is following through.

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chase_gw

"Why do Trump’s supporters have such a different perception of his behavior than i do?"

This is a total conundrum for me.

I understand having different views and opinions regarding policy issue. While not supportive of the conservative agenda, it does not bother me in the least that others hold social and political views I find wrong minded. I don't judge them on a personal level for holding those views. So for the sake of the argument I am going to put policy issues to the side.

Which brings me to Trump's behaviours. Basically I believe(d) that most of us have shared values when it comes to things like truthfulness, bullying, personal insults, integrity . Yes, we have varying degrees in how we define that but we know right from wrong. Many of us raised kids, we set standards for them and expected them to meet those standards and when they didn't there were consequences.

It is because I believe(d) that we had shared values at a certain level that transcended politics that I am so shaken with the way Trump supporters are willing to , not just overlook, but accept behaviour from the President of the United States that they would not accept from their children or spouse.

It is difficult for me to accept that Trump supporters either

1) are willing to overlook those behaviours because they like the policy...those issues are mutually exclusive. One can praise one while being critical of the other.

OR

2) They truly do not see Trump's behaviours as inappropriate . It is this option that bothers me most .

The other issue is trying to understand why Trump supporters don't see, if they truly don't, the damage Trump is doing to American institutions. Maybe because I am an outsider looking in and am not as politically vested as Americans are, but the damage Trump is doing to the democratic institutions of the United States is jaw dropping.

His total disregard for the Separation of Powers, his public disdain for the Justice Department as well as the various intelligence agencies, his dismissal of any personal oversight, his public and personal attacks on members of the House and Senate, his ridicule of all who oppose him and his refusal to openly support, and in fact lead the charge, on the interference of any foreign government on American democracy is not draining the swamp...it's undermining your historical institutions.

These are not issues to be dismissed out of hand. They can do lasting damage to the institutions that have made your country great....but Trump supporters don't seem to see that. It is quite baffling given the number of hard examples readily available.

Again I ask, do they not see it ......or they see it but don't care? Not sure which is worse but one thing I have come to understand............I was wrong when I believed most of us have shared values when it comes
to things like truthfulness, bullying, personal insults and integrity and knowing right from wrong.

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josephene_gw

This started out being informative but it's turning into another liberal

bashing/trump bashing.

was hoping to learn more about why we each think and feel the way we do.

everyone has their thoughts and beliefs of which they are entitled to.


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whynottryit

Josephene, you're right and that is what I had hoped. Frankly, I'm biding time waiting for Mudhouse to return because I think that's when the real conversation will start. She's the inspiration for this thread and I think she is going to help us define and narrow our thoughts (mine, at least). She had morning appointments but said she would return this afternoon. If you'd like to join in, please check back.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The republicans have been told by their donors - cut our taxes or don’t ever call us again.

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MrsM(6)

I've never felt Trump really wanted to have to deal with all the let's say... 'details' that come with the job of being president. He wanted the title and won it, so now he will forever be able to say 'I was once the President of the United States'. I'm serious..that to me is what it literally boils down to. He wanted something that was very important to him for his ego and by golly he got it.

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lilacinjust

MrsM

I've never felt Trump really wanted to have to deal with all the let's say... 'details' that come with the job of being president. He wanted the title and won it, so now he will forever be able to say 'I was once the President of the United States'. I'm serious..that to me is what it literally boils down to. He wanted something that was very important to him for his ego and by golly he got it.

^^^^^^

I actually thought just that at first. In the beginning, when I saw him ride down the escalator and the primary race was on, I did not take him seriously and thought he'd get beat or drop out.

I thought, "Thomas Crown".

I don't think that any longer. Being POTUS ages you, it sucks everything you have and I don't believe that Trump will benefit financially like the Clintons and Obamas did.

I've come around to think Trump is actually in this for Americans, and no, not just the rich ones.

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SandyC.
Since the 80 s he has wanted to run. He had an attempt in the late nineties, with the help of Ailes, who quit showbiz to run Nixon, Reagan and Bushes campaign, and dirty tricksters like Roger Stone.
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sunflower_petal(5a)

"I don't believe that Trump will benefit financially like the Clintons and Obamas did."

Meaning no one will pay him to write a book or give speeches?

Certainly, he may be losing whatever prestige he had in the business world after this.

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lilacinjust


sunflower_petal

"I don't believe that Trump will benefit financially like the Clintons and Obamas did."

Meaning no one will pay him to write a book or give speeches?

^^^^

No, meaning Trump's a billionaire and has lived like a wealthy person all of his life. He won't be suddenly going from beer and burgers to champagne and caviar.

The Clintons and Obamas have gone from white collar professionals who probably would have lived a comfortable life, to wealth in the hundreds of millions.

I'd say that's quite some payoff for being public servants.

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chase_gw

Mudhouse/Whynot.......good try

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ojo_sigo

But this is just repeating the reasons why non-Trump supporters don't support him, and I think there is merit in it, what we are not seeing is an explanation of why these things are seen differently. All the items repeatedly listed appear self-evident to those who hold those views but not so to others - why?

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lilacinjust

Certainly, he may be losing whatever prestige he had in the business world after this.

^^^

Wouldn't it stand to reason that is exactly why Trump is not going to be financially benefitting from being President?

Out of Trump, the Clintons and Obama, Trump has the most to lose.

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Joaniepoanie

Trump saw the presidency as a way to market his brand....bigly.....and in so doing....profit....bigly. If he was truly interested in his job he would have read, studied, learned history, etc. He doesn’t even want to be bothered with daily briefings.

He’s not even Republican....he would have joined the polka dot party if it meant a possible win for him. Does anyone think he cares if a woman has an abortion? Does anyone think he cares about coal miners, vets, or the middle class? He’s never hob-nobbed with the average joe. He simply can’t relate. And he doesn't want to. He cares about money and constant adoration. The presidency fulfills the first, and his base the latter.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I don't believe that Trump will benefit financially...

I guess that'd be true, if you ignore the reality that he already has. This was from June, so less than 6 months into his presidency:

President Trump says he’s received tens of millions of dollars in income from the golf courses and resorts whose profile he boosted during frequent visits since taking office, according to filings released Friday by the U.S. Office of Government Ethics.

The 98 pages of financial disclosures offer a partial snapshot of Trump’s income and assets from January 2016 to April this year, as well as indications he’s reaped at least a partial windfall since his most recent filing with the Federal Election Commission last year. Source

And that's ignoring other ways he's benefited indirectly like ivanka's licensing agreement with china, or pushing the president of Argentina to get his permits passed on his building, or using his bully pulpit to tout his Charlottesville winery after the murder of Heather Heyer.

Or the fact that he stands to benefit bigly from his own tax plan, e.g.:

Trump's plan proposes to repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax — which, as known from the limited 2005 returns leaked earlier this year, once cost the president $31 million. It accounted for most of the $38.5 million in taxes Trump paid that year.

While this kind of talk may upset josephene as another "bash trump" post, it isn't. It goes to the heart of how the perceptions of a trump supporter differ from that of someone who is anti-trump. Even if I start from a base of positive sentiment toward trump, I can't continue in light of the facts as they present themselves. And this is not "elitist"...not in my view anyway...it's only that these facts matter to me.

I can only conclude that mimi is either not aware of these facts, or they don't rise to a sufficient level to change her attitude toward trump as they do for me.

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Annie Deighnaugh

(The above post was long enough, so I'm leaving out the fact that, rather than divest himself of all his assets into a blind trust as other presidents have done, trump stands to benefit directly and be influenced by his own business operations in terms of passing policies that are favorable to him.)

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Ziemia(6a)

Until recently, reducing the deficit was of high interest for most of our Trump supporters. That has disappeared.

Rina's request is useful and could use fuller responses. Giving 'lower taxes' doesn't say much by itself. Is it good enough that some sections of the US get lower taxes? Seems so simplistic and by design. Simplistic goals are easier to meet.

Because .... I agree with most of Ann's list above - here it is with with two deletions (repeal Obamacare and American's first - I don't know what this means. I can probably find examples of where I see a need to put American's first, but I doubt Ann would agree with me. One is putting American's welfare ahead of US business welfare.)

But, I agree with wanting the rest. (It's the pathway that is meaty and it's missing).

Lower taxes

Stronger border

Supported military and law enforcement

Increased economy and jobs

Take better care of our veterans

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Kathy

Maybe Why or Mudhouse need to define one behavior? There are too many to discuss.

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Ziemia(6a)

Kathy, this suggestion would help in giving guidance. (There have been many not-a-fan of Trump's that have said the tweeting itself isn't what's bothersome.)

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j4c11

Until recently, reducing the deficit was of high interest for most of our Trump supporters. That has disappeared.

Growing the economy means reducing the deficit.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

A segment of the population is adept at having their brains lie to themselves. You can talk different perspective and perceptions until you are blue. When you understand that some people can watch, real time with their own eyes, a family member commit a horrific crime, and then convince themselves that it did not happen, you can get an inkling of how some people process events.

I've known people like this. I don't know if it is a primitive survival mechanism or what, but they convert things they don't want to accept into a memory they can accept. Then they lock it in, and block out anything and everything that might revise their memory with the horrifying truth. Facts, video, confessions, etc., no matter how many in number and irrefutable, produces no perceptible change in their belief.

Some of these alternate processors are those that appear to be turning a blind eye. Other trump followers are simply stubborn about not ever admitting being wrong or mistaken. I doubt rational thinkers and memory alterers are ever going to truly understand the other type of processors.

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j4c11

I've known people like this. I don't know if it is a primitive survival mechanism or what, but they convert things they don't want to accept into a memory they can accept.

Kind of like when liberals keep saying they won the popular vote, even though there's no such election.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Until recently, reducing the deficit was of high interest for most of our Trump supporters. That has disappeared.

"Growing the economy means reducing the deficit."

Well it might, if you didn't give it all away in tax reductions.

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j4c11

Well it might, if you didn't give it all away in tax reductions.

You have to spend money to make money.

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mudhouse

Josephine: This started out being informative but it's turning into another liberal bashing/trump bashing. Was hoping to learn more about why we each think and feel the way we do.

whynot: i'm biding time waiting for Mudhouse to return...She had morning appointments but said she
would return this afternoon. If you'd like to join in, please check
back.

Yup thanks guys for being patient. I'm back now (the am appointment turned into an afternoon appointment as well, sorry.) Mondays are my busiest days. :-(

Taking time to finish reading the thread, so I have a better feel for the conversation I've missed, I want to understand some of the good points here.

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mudhouse

chase: Mudhouse/Whynot.......good try

LOL chase don't give up yet!

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whynottryit

Kathy, yes, I think parameters need to be narrowed.

Gyr, yes, that phenomenon is very evident in eye witness evidence. However, those events are typically a one-time occurrence that happen during a short period of time and don't give the witness/es an opportunity to analyze and compare various versions of the incident. We do not have that limitation with political situations.

Personally, I would like to understand how Trump supporters have consistently held him harmless in situations in which others are condemned. This has occurred with various circumstances in which he has been involved, whether it be golf or conspiracy or comments on Twitter or things he has said on air that have been egregiously venomous. It seems to me that he is given a pass by his supporters while his opponents become livid. There is another thread discussing Kathy Griffin and the subject of her heinous picture of DJT beheaded came up. She is upset because she has been blacklisted by Hollywood for her actions. Liberals and conservatives, rightly, have viciously condemned her for this. However, Trump's rallies had numerous supporters with HRC effigies in nooses but somehow that was okay. It's the attitude of his supporters that I don't understand. That's what I'm hoping to learn. Why is there a gap between what is acceptable from conservatives vs. what is accepted from liberals? Why were reactions so different to Harvey Weinstein and Al Franken than to Roy Moore or to Trump? Is it truly that the media is so tunnel visioned or is it the voters? How do we get to a place of reacting consistently to similar events regardless of party affiliation?

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whynottryit

Mudhouse! So glad you made it!

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mudhouse

Wee bit worried some might think I have a great answer to these big questions (I don't) but I would enjoy more conversation. Going back to whynot's question about this tweet. Maybe we can look at how differently you and I respond to the same thing.

Marshawn Lynch of the NFL’s Oakland Raiders stands for the Mexican Anthem and sits down to boos for our National Anthem. Great disrespect! Next time NFL should suspend him for remainder of season. Attendance and ratings way down.

whynot: My perception of this tweet is that this is something too petty for a President to be focusing on. A president has no standing to tell any business to suspend any employee for any reason...My reaction is why? ...This is a problem between the owners, the players and the fans, not a matter for Presidential oversight. The micromanaging of things out of his purview completely baffles me. So the conclusion I come to is that he either:

(1) has nothing better to do, i.e., he's not doing his job,
(2) he thinks this is his job, i.e, he doesn't understand his job,
(3) he thinks he does have or wants the power to control these events, i.e., he wants to be a monarch or dictator.

My first thought is 1) he's expressing an opinion and 2) he's expressing it because he knows a lot of people will agree with him. So the three possible reasons that occurred to you didn't even enter my mind. Of course your three possibles were negative, but no problem, because that's part of what we're trying to figure out.

You and I talked a bit about the micromanaging question in the thread about Johnstown, PA. You felt that Trump's promises to the residents were promises of specific improvements to come for Johnstown, but I felt that Trump's promises involved broad changes on a national scale, involving trade and industry.

In this tweet you could say why is Trump micromanaging the Oakland Raiders, but I think he is making a much broader statement about the issue of how NFL fans feel about the "take a knee" issue.

I don't agree with those above who think Trump tweets in order to lie or to distract from the Russia investigation. I agree with those above who think Trump tweets in order to communicate directly with the public, without being filtered through the media.

I think many of Trump's tweets have an underlying message that he knows strikes a chord with many of the people who voted for him. Some say he doesn't really hold these beliefs himself, and he's only lying through Twitter to manipulate himself into popularity (saying what people want to hear.)

I do think Trump believes what he says. I'm not sure how to change the minds of those who classify him as a charlatan; I probably can't.

Is it improper for a president to use Twitter? I don't think so. Is it embarrassing for Trump to say things that other people wouldn't? I don't think so.

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lilacinjust

gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

A segment of the population is adept at having their brains lie to themselves.

^^^^^^

Fascinating. Their entire brain or a particular area of their brain?

Do you have any studies that support this?

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Marshall C.(7b and 4b (formerly 9 and 10))

Mini, you folks have had several whole threads on this subject of the conservative brain and value system arising from that region.

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mudhouse

Okay, the lies thing. When I first started posting here, as a Trump voter, that seemed to be the biggest question. How could I overlook all the lies? I kind of hate the lying issue, because it's a dead end. There is no way I can change the minds of people who think everything Trump says is a lie.

Instead let's talk about trust, which is related, because we usually don't believe people if we don't trust them. (Kathy mentioned trust, way up thread.) How do I know that Trump is who he says he is, how do I know that he really does care about the country? I don't of course, I'm just reading and guessing like you are.

I have never seen one of Trump's TV shows. When the questions first started about whether or not Trump would run, I told people, don't worry, he's not serious, he won't run.

Then he did. Some in my family started freaking out. He's crazy and will kill us all with nuclear war. But I started listening, and one day I said to my family, I know, I know...but he's saying some of the things that we all say to each other in the living room. You could have heard a pin drop.

So, where does trust start? For me it started when I realized that this guy was saying, out loud, some of the things that have been in my head for the last ten years or so, things that few other politicians had the courage to talk about. (I won't list what those things are though, because then we're off chasing issue disagreements.)

I don't know Trump (at that point) but I do know myself. I know I love my country, I know I'm a good person, hard working, decent, fair minded, like most of us. So when Trump seems to be able to put into words some of the worries that have been in my mind, worries about the future, that's the first bridge. Then I listen harder and try to decide if he too is a good, decent, fair minded person like I think I am.

It may seem dumb to list this out, but I'm trying to go way back to the roots of how we decide people are trustable. I think the perception of similar values and concerns is part of that (for me.)

Maybe the complete lack of trust (and perception of lies) on the other side comes about because, at the root of Trump, his opinions on issues don't mesh with those on the left. But that still doesn't explain the almost primal, violent negative reaction against Trump that I see. This seems like a lot more than your typical "I don't like that guy because he's right wing" kind of reaction in a presidential race.

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Joaniepoanie

I’ll never understand how Trump supporters defend him so fiercely or how R’s get a pass on everything. Bill Maher attempts to explain it. I hope T supporters will watch and really comment on the content.....not just nasty comments about Bill.

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chase_gw

"chase: Mudhouse/Whynot.......good try

LOL chase don't give up yet!"

Mudhouse.. too late I have totally given up on what I have so long believed to be the values of America, of the American people .

It has become clear to me that all that I ever thought comprised the greatness of America...is nothing of the sort. It's all about your political goals. no matter the behaviour....no matter what

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whynottryit

Joanie, I watched the entire video. No, it explains nothing. It's just a litany of issues that, granted, are important if discussed seriously but this video is a comedic performance, a satire of the situation -- not an explanation of how we have arrived here.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

However, those events are typically a one-time occurrence that happen during a short period of time and don't give the witness/es an opportunity to analyze and compare various versions of the incident.

No, not always just one traumatic event. I used that as an example because that is the type more people have probably heard something about. There are people that use this mechanism in an ongoing fashion for things they don't want to accept. A family member coped with unwanted input in this way.

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ojo_sigo

Chase, surely the organized resistance to Trump disproves your negativity.

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whynottryit

Gyr, I do understand that it sometimes happens but we are dealing with hundreds of millions of people here. Is it possible for that many people to be using the same coping mechanism? I don't think it's likely, even if possible. I believe there is something else at work but I am at a loss to explain what.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Kellyanne the ‘spokescobra’ Conway said only a few days ago that Moore needs to step down because nothing is more precious than a child etc...

Now she says that Alabama needs to vote for him to keep the seat republican.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

I never even insinuated a majority of people do that, whynottryit. Nor that it is just about trump and his supporters as the cause, although I did say a small portion of trump supporters probably do mentally eliminate what they don't want to accept. Your hundreds of millions is laughable. There wasn't hundreds of millions of trump supporters in the United States at any point in time--and certainly not with his popularity as low as it is polling now.

Plus I said there are other reasons that supporters continue to support. I was referred to a small segment of the population that do this. My point was, for discussions with people that do process in this way, no amount of links, sources, research, talking, explaining, etc. will dent their held "truth" in the slightest, and they will never understand other people's perception of events.

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whynottryit

Thank you, gyr. Maybe I am laboring under a false premise but I think on both sides of the aisle there is a party first mindset for the base of the party supporters. My problem is that I don't comprehend that mentality or how so many (not just individuals) can be so tunnel-visioned. I understand that the parties have differing policies but I don't understand how we went from lively debate to vitriol and violence. I don't understand how a candidate can say he can shoot someone in the middle of NYC and still get elected and it be true. I can't fathom how that is possible. Roy Moore is another example of this mindset. Kellyanne Conway has contradicted herself on this issue in the last couple of days and yet, conservatives still accept it. This has been happening now for two years. It will continue for at least 3 more and who knows how long after that. Dems supported HRC religiously as well. Maybe it's just me not feeling a party loyalty but I think it goes deeper. It's as if patriotism and loyalty for country has now shifted to party loyalty. There's a civil war mentality but rather than being North v. South, it's Dems v. Reps. Why?

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mudhouse

gyr_falcon: Some of these alternate processors are those that appear to be turning a blind eye. Other trump followers are simply stubborn about not ever admitting being wrong or mistaken. I doubt rational thinkers and memory alterers are ever going to truly understand the other type of processors.

Gyr (briefly) these aren't the only possibilities. One, I'm turning a blind eye. Two, I'm stubborn and won't admit I'm wrong. Three, I'm an irrational thinker. Or maybe my primitive survival mechanism is kicking in.

You don't think intelligent people can have differing opinions?

(edited, thanks for clarifying Gyr.) I'll point out, of course, that the same statements can be applied to a portion of people on the other side of the political fence, who refuse to acknowledge anything other than their own perception of events. It's hard for me to understand how this advances the conversation.

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mudhouse

whynot: I understand that the parties have differing policies but I don't understand how we went from lively debate to vitriol and violence.

I would like to understand this too.

It's as if patriotism and loyalty for country has now shifted to party loyalty. There's a civil war mentality but rather than being North v. South, it's Dems v. Reps. Why?

Whynot, does this mean that your perception of what's happening includes differences in the policies embraced by the two parties? Or do you think the vitriol between the two sides is largely a product of Donald Trump, himself? Just trying to understand.

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whynottryit

Mudhouse, I am not sure what caused it but I didn't see the intensity of emotion until Trump began campaigning. I may have missed it but I don't recall the kind of slurs and name-calling in previous elections, at least from the candidates themselves. So I guess I am blaming Trump himself for it. It seems he has brought out the worst not the best in people.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

whynottryit, if I recall correctly, we both are independent political party-wise, and of slightly left moderate. I can no longer support Republicans, but that is by default due to their actions rather than allegiance to the Democratic Party. I can sometimes grasp the whys behind some stances and behaviors, but that does not necessarily mean that the conclusion drawn by those types of thinkers makes more sense to me.

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Marshall C.(7b and 4b (formerly 9 and 10))

Probably fewer than half the population have party affiliations and fewer of those are partisan activists with knowledge of issues and personalities. This leaves well over half of the potential voters not party members. Perhaps a third of all voters are drawn to voting in general elections with little knowledge of party and issues but respond to the latest and loudest of campaigning noise and what their friends and neighbors are saying about what their favorite media outlet has convinced them is true and favoring certain voting.


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whynottryit

Yes, gyr. You're correct about that.

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whynottryit

Marshaliz, is that an opinion or have you seen data on that? I am just trying to clarify.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

"...these aren't the only possibilities."

As I stated also.

It's hard for me to understand how this advances the conversation.

*shrug* If you derived no value from what I wrote, that is fine. I feel the same way about some other HT contributors.

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Marshall C.(7b and 4b (formerly 9 and 10))

Whynottryit, it is my opinion based on my readings of past research on voting patterns and party affiliations. On HT we have had several threads, at least, for dissecting voting patterns. In most off-term elections fewer than 30% of registered voters do vote, meaning that about 15% of the eligible population vote in the legislators, governors, judges, etc. General elections bring out about half to maybe 60% of the registered voters, meaning that winners of the presidency reflect the support of about a quarter to a third of eligible voters. So much for landslides!

ETA: I should have stated that these voting and partisan issues have been subjected to numerous threads over the past 5 general elections at least. So the material I presented above is well understood, if not well accepted.

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whynottryit

Thank you, just wanted to be clear about the source of the information.

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arthurpym

We, as partisans, have a tendency to look at and perceive the 'other' side, no matter what that is, as wrong. It's really that simple.

Let me give you an example. Trump said, many times, that he was bringing coal mining jobs back. I know that's not possible, but he said it. To me, it's an outright lie and proves his agenda is a failure. But to his supporters, it's not about coal mining jobs; it's about making American workers strong again and not at the mercy of foreigners or regulations or other outside influences.

The same holds true for Obama. Under the ACA, Obama opponents point to his statement that if you like your plan, you can keep your plan. And when that didn't happen for everyone, they saw the whole plan as flawed and a failure. However, believers are more interested in the idea that millions are now covered under health insurance, rather than the few that lost the plans they liked. It's all about perspective.

Both sides do the exact same thing. We always focus on the message of 'our' side. We always focus on the exact words of 'their' side. Our perceptions are wrought clear by our partisanship. We can ignore Roy Moore's transgressions, since so many liberals seem to ignore Bill Clintons'. We can ignore Obama's drone war because of Bush's ill-fated foray into Iraq.

Round and round we go.

As long as we play whataboutism, we'll play this circle forever.

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mudhouse

gyr, I meant no offense.

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mudhouse

whynot: Mudhouse, I am not sure what caused it but I didn't see the intensity of emotion until Trump began campaigning. I may have missed it but I don't recall the kind of slurs and name-calling in previous elections, at least from the candidates themselves.

I agree that Trump's hardball tactics of assigning names to ridicule candidates in the debates and rallies is something we haven't seen before, and during the campaign I think he was directly responsible for an overall coarsening of the dialogue. The tactic of assigning names to opponents is also something he continues in his tweets. It's not unheard of in politics (or as a technique used in persuasion) but Trump has taken it to a new level.

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whynottryit

The tactic of assigning names to opponents is also something he continues in his tweets. It's not unheard of in politics (or as a technique used in persuasion) but Trump has taken it to a new level.

When he was in Huntsville for a Luther Strange rally, he rambled a bit about calling Luther "Big Luther", asking if he (Strange) had ever been called that before. At 6'4" (I think), that was probably a given that Strange would have been called that but DJT acted as though no one would have ever considered it before. He then went on to say that he liked "branding" people. I think that is where this habit comes from. As annoying as that practice is, it's probably the least of my concerns about him in the grand scheme of things -- though it does tend to objectify individuals and make them appear more as products than human beings.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I recall the increased animosity between the two political parties increasing when Bill Clinton first ran for president. The Arkansas Project put $$$$ behind the animosity, giving substance to what I perceived as loathing. (Hillary was also the subject of personal attacks: Lesbian murderer of her lover Vince Foster.) Falwell, or some other TV evangelist, was peddling tapes on the Vince Foster "murder."

As the internet grew and became ubiquitous, political attacks had the potential of being targeted to the most receptive audiences. The potential has been exploited, and purveyors of political hate, quite bizzare at times, carved a profitable niche for themselves.

The birther movement, an attack on Barack Obama's legitimacy as president, was the next step in polarization of the political landscape.

And it continues.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I wouldn't dismiss the maher video in that it provides his take and some examples of how rep's perception of a negative or positive event is very different if it's done by a rep or a dem. The example of how the reps responded to moore/trump vs. weinstein/franken is a case in point. Or hillary's email server vs trumps or the clinton foundation vs trump's etc.

It really is that one's perception of an event is filtered through a party screen for many.

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ohiomom

One correction if you do not mind mudhouse. Trump has taken it to the lowest level I have ever seen in my decades of voting.

True candidates will take opportunities to snipe at their opponents, one comes to mind "I
served with Jack Kennedy. I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of
mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."

But I have never heard a candidate state on numerous occassions to have his opponent "locked up" and/or the nastiness of his insults to members of his own party. I think most, but not some, can agree that his words toward John McCain among others is a new low.

For me it is his vulgarity and crudeness that is a big turn off and I just can't get past that when he tweets it constantly.

2 cents

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lilacinjust


marshallz11

Mini, you folks have had several whole threads on this subject of the conservative brain and value system arising from that region.

^^^^^

morsh, I was hoping for a little academic rigor.

Eh, never mind.

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Marshall C.(7b and 4b (formerly 9 and 10))

Mimi, there was tooooo much academic rigor, but mostly well presented by the few who participated in the threads. Social biology and psychology are not subjects for the light of mind nor rigid ideology.


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mudhouse

whynot: When he was in Huntsville for a Luther Strange rally, he rambled a bit about calling Luther "Big Luther", asking if he (Strange) had ever been called that before...He then went on to say that he liked "branding" people. I think that is where this habit comes from. As
annoying as that practice is, it's probably the least of my concerns about him in the grand scheme of things -- though it does tend to objectify individuals and make them appear more as products than human beings.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's a branding thing created by Trump. Obama didn't assign nicknames to people, but George W. Bush did, all the time. Here's a link to the list in Wikipedia. These are more like the "Big Luther" name, (not really intended to be derogatory):
List of nicknames used by George W. Bush

But the kinds of names that Trump assigns to his opponents are different. Scott Adams (Dilbert cartoonist) has written about techniques of persuasion, and writes a lot about some of the techniques that Trump uses. Adams would refer to a nickname like "Low Energy Jeb" as a linguistic kill shot. Basically it's an engineered set of words, carefully chosen to gain an advantage in an argument, and it usually emphasizes a perception that's already in your mind (or it wouldn't work.) They're not random insults, but things that usually stick so you can't get them out of your mind.

I doubt this will make you feel better about Trump, but I thought you might find it interesting to learn that these names (Crooked Hillary, Rocket Man, etc) are more tools of persuasion than they are carelessly hurled insults. They're used as tools, in other words, to win an argument or a debate.

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lilacinjust

So, you have no evidence to offer that somehow, our brains actually do what you claim.

OK.

Never mind.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

gyr, I meant no offense.

None taken, mudhouse.

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mudhouse

ohiomom: One correction if you do not mind mudhouse. Trump has taken it to the lowest level I have ever seen in my decades of voting...I think most, but not some, can agree that his words toward John McCain among others is a new low.

No, I don't mind at all ohiomom. Whynottryit's stated purpose of this thread is to promote understanding, so we need to be honest.

So, I'll also be honest about Trump's statement about John McCain. It affected me, but probably not how you think. (I'll interject here, I'm no fan of McCain, politically, but that's totally beside the point.)

When I heard Trump's remarks ("He's not a war hero") I was shocked. I support veterans. You say that, about a hero, and a veteran? I said, well, that's it, Trump is absolutely done. He has gone too far, and will never, ever come back from that remark. How stupid. How dare he. End of Trump's chances; he's totally toast.

The next day, the sun came up, life went on, and Trump went on. I was shocked again. How, in the world, was this possible? How can this guy say something like that, about a war hero, and still be out there talking? How is he still even alive? Are you kidding me? And the next day came, and the next, and Trump wasn't banished from the planet, as I was sure he would be.

That's the absolute moment I realized how much I had come to completely accept the idea that there are just some things you can't say. Even though I see myself as a conservative who says what I think, and who values free speech, and the diversity of ideas, I had taken to heart the understanding that certain words are absolutely fatal. I had absorbed it into my bones. You can't say stuff like that.

But I was wrong. I woke up. Trump did that (for me.)

When I first came to HT, I remember posting that I thought Trump's lack of political correctness was a little refreshing. I was being honest, but I was surprised by the aggressive push back against my comment, and I retreated.

I don't retreat from it any more, and this is probably another big chunk of why I interpret Trump differently from many people here. Over the last year I've become even more convinced that political correctness was affecting my own ability to speak honestly, although I didn't even realize it. I had slowly but surely stopped saying things I believed, to almost anyone, except in the privacy of my own house. Because I didn't want to be perceived as rude, or ugly, or unintelligent.

Words have an impact, and they can be used carelessly, and cruelly. We shouldn't do that if we can avoid it, and I try not to. (I won't argue that Trump doesn't worry about it like I do.) But speaking generally, words don't kill people. That's what Trump taught me when he made the statement about John McCain. You can say stuff, and the sun will still come up tomorrow.

If Trump disappears from the earth tomorrow, I will always be grateful to him for waking me up. And to be honest, that revelation about my own paralysis because of political correctness was so big I totally forgot to be offended on behalf of veterans.

(Too much honesty?)

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

So, you have no evidence to offer that somehow, our brains actually do what you claim.

I sometimes choose not to waste time with queries that seem only to serve to watch the questioned chase their tail. Whether my perception is correct or not, mimipadv, in this case I had too many other things to do and decided not to bother. In other words, I pre-chose to never mind.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"You can say stuff, and the sun will still come up tomorrow."

How nice that he has woken up some people. But he still crosses a line that he shouldn't now that he's president. The office deserves dignity. It's not political correctness to expect that. I wish more people could appreciate the difference (not saying that you personally don't).

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Ann

Do people in general have the responsibility of civility, or just Trump? Do the things said (by almost every single liberal on HT) about Trump pass the smell test? Is it Trump's fault the liberals on HT think Orange Face or all the other names for him are suddenly OK? I know there was criticism of Obama (I think he was terribly arrogant and said so often), but that's a whole different level than the very, very derogatory name calling of Trump. Is what each of you liberals do here - Trump's fault?

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Margo

Mudhouse, you have such a great way with words. Thank you for your polite way of conveying that message;)


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lilacinjust


Ann

Do people in general have the responsibility of civility, or just Trump?

^^^^^^

That is an excellent question.

Unfortunately, it's rhetorical ;-)

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Of course, everyone has their own responsibility for being civil. Trump has a bigger one (YUGE?) because not only is he out in front of the media and the world, but because he represents the rest of us. Is that too much to expect?

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Margo

My bet is if the MSM and the left in general would have given Trump a fair shot, and reported him properly, you would have seen a different Trump. He is always on the defense. He is a fighter, but then again that IS another reason his supporters voted for him;)

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arthurpym

No Ann. What's going on with name-calling with Trump is nothing different than what went on with Obama. Please see my earlier comments. Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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lilacinjust

sunflower_petal

Of course, everyone has their own responsibility for being civil. Trump has a bigger one (YUGE?) because not only is he out in front of the media and the world, but because he represents the rest of us. Is that too much to expect?

^^^^^

Anyone who has allowed Trump (or whomever) to coarsen them, their hearts, their language and their outlook on Americans who voted for him have only themselves to blame.

We get our own house in order.

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lilacinjust

arthurpym

No Ann. What's going on with name-calling with Trump is nothing different than what went on with Obama. Please see my earlier comments. Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

^^^

This is gaslighting.

Don't tell me or anyone that it's our imagination that the coarseness of language, lack of respect and never-ending attempts to unseat Trump has any precedent whatsoever.

(and no, hoping and aiming to make Obama a one-term POTUS isn't the same)

If you can tell me that you truly believe a late night comedian would not have been immediately fired for calling Obama a cock holster, or currently-serving politicians for calling for Obama's assassination, I'll believe you aren't selling me a load of who shot John.

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Ann

Just because you didn't notice it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I think it would be pretty darn hard to not notice it now, don't you? If I or anyone failed to notice it during the Obama years, it must have been a pretty minor occurrence. That's certainly not the case now. Do any of you ever consider your own behavior or do you only consider the behavior of Trump? So often, I hear many liberals on HT wondering how on earth Trump could possibly have strong and continued support. If you look in a mirror, you'll see one of the very biggest reasons for his continued support looking right back at you. Some of us want nothing to do with that behavior. If you think Trump will lose voters due to his behavior, do you honestly think you'll gain voters with your behavior? Too harsh?

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Joaniepoanie

Ann...you thought Obama was arrogant? He was Mr. Humble Pie compared to Trump’s arrogance. Just today Trump tweeted about himself “your favorite president.” He should have said “favorite president of about 30%.” Ive never seen such ego and arrogance in one human being.

Margo...the MSM was too soft on Trump. That’s one of the reasons he won. Everyday it was Trump said yada yada, now back to Hillary’s emails, or the Clinton Foundation, or Benghazi. I remember being incredulous that they would just gloss over everything he said and did.

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Margo

Margo...the MSM was too soft on Trump. That’s one of the reasons he won.

Oh boy, now I have heard it all, lol, the MSM helped Trump win the election lol lol lol.

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Ann

Ann...you thought Obama was arrogant?

Yes, I certainly did.

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SandyC.
Arrogant the new " uppity" for racists.
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SandyC.
The same explanation of our young football players who protest racial injustice and institutionalized racism. Trump and Fox talk show bigots call them arogent , well paid athletes, the new uppity.
President Obama, a Harvard constitutional scholar.
Donald Trump, a reality show star, four times bankrupt, con man , grifter, pariah in NY.
A young black writer I heard interviewed on racism and President Obama, said the must feared thing was not our first black president but our first successful black president by right wing racists.
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lilacinjust


Ann

Ann...you thought Obama was arrogant?

Yes, I certainly did.

^^^^^^

You just put out the "uppity" Bat Signal and flashed it into the night sky ;-)

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Kathy

A young black writer I heard interviewed on racism and President Obama, said the must feared thing was not our first black president but our first successful black president by right wing racists

I do believe the Republicans were fearful Obama would be too popular and that is why they sabatoged him from day one. Race probably played a portion of the fear ....fear he would favor blacks maybe..but mainly I think they feared his intelligence and popularity thinking he would be a black Kennedy.

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chloe203

"My bet is if the MSM and the left in general would have given Trump a fair shot, and reported him properly, you would have seen a different Trump. He is always on the defense"

I didn't need the media to tell me what to think. I just had to watch his rallies. The media covered them uninterrupted ad nauseam.

What I saw was a con artist who was totally unqualified for the job he was applying for. Or watch his debate performance. What a joke.

And that others couldn't see that or probably more correctly chose not to see that just boggles my mind.




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SandyC.
Some people only knew Trump from his reality tv ( fake) show.
People that read and have been aware of Trump for the past four decades knew who he was.
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azmom

mudhouse,

Nothing new in your postings, it has already been recognized and proved - Trump voters are Trump.

You wrote pages of pages long winding postings trying to find silver lining through your rosy eyeglasses in Trump and in your type. The truth is, nothing worthwhile is there.

If Trump disappears from the earth tomorrow, the only regret I have is why it did not come sooner, before he completely destroys this society and this country.

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azmom

We have long learned from her postings that anyone who is smart is too arrogant for Ann. From Mimi and Margo's postings, any question they cannot answer or comment they do not like is 'baiting'. For Trumpesters, anyone who has some amount of education is "elitist", is being polluted from Marxism.

"Adams would refer to a nickname like "Low Energy Jeb" as a linguistic kill shot. Basically it's an engineered set of words, carefully chosen to gain an advantage in an argument, and it usually emphasizes a perception that's already in your mind (or it wouldn't work.)"

The above is one of the most gross, ridiculous, stupid brown nosing comments one could ever heard from Trumpesters. What he did is childish, vulgar name calling that is the most disgusting, disrespectful and low class behavior in a presidential debate. Again, it shows Trump voters are coward copy of Trump, they are same vile but too timid to be the real version.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Don't tell me or anyone that it's our imagination that the coarseness of language, lack of respect and never-ending attempts to unseat Trump has any precedent whatsoever.

The precedent is the gop treatment of clintons...both of them. To have the entire rnc chanting "lock her up", to threaten to go after a political opponent, and then to use the power of the presidency to manipulate the justice department to investigate a former president and secretary of state is outrageous behavior on its face. Memes of escorting hillary to a noose, lies about her health and stamina, even lies about her running a child porn ring and newspapers running headlines of her relationships with aliens, un-freakin-believable. So yeah, I think the gop led the way and taught the dems.

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Annie Deighnaugh

My bet is if the MSM and the left in general would have given Trump a fair shot, and reported him properly, you would have seen a different Trump.

Actually what happened during the campaign was trump dropped in the polls after each debate as people got first-hand evidence of who he was, and it wasn't until the RW spin machine got to work after the debates that he rose in the polls. It was trump himself, unfiltered, that did the most damage...just like how, right before the election, they had him stay on script and stop tweeting because his handlers knew he was doing damage to himself by being himself.

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mayflowers

He only rises in the polls after a quiet week, which are few and far between.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

I see it as everyone have different life experiences, education, specific wants, and understanding of our government. Government knowledge is a big part.

Education and understanding government..................

I remember one of the HT Conservative told me I was wrong for calling my Senator's to help me with a issue. She actually said she did not know what congress did but she know they were to busy to answer my question. That proved she did not know what or why she was voting and their responsibilities.

Life Experience......From the interviews I have seen there are some that have only seen their back yard of dirt poor. There are so many that said he is a business man so he will be good. I have worked in business and anybody that has been bankrupt as many times as this man I would not consider that a good businessman.

Someone without life experience tRump would be amazing to them. They can only dream and imagine how smart because of what he tells them. "I am rich you are not" But.....I know you are poor. So they think of that as understanding. I do not want understanding without results and do not bankrupt the country. That will not help me.

Specific Wants.........I think of a woman that takes abuse and because the man tells her he loves her and he did not mean to beat her. Because she wants him to love her she believes he loves her because he said he loves her. tRump can do nothing and because he says he is doing it they will ignore that it is not happening.

Middle class want to pay lower taxes. Although the current bill does not give them lower taxes as long as he says they will pay less they want to believe him.

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mudhouse

mudhouse: Adams would refer to a nickname like "Low Energy Jeb" as a linguistic kill shot. Basically it's an engineered set of words, carefully chosen to gain an advantage in an argument, and it usually emphasizes a perception that's already in your mind (or it wouldn't work.)

azmom: The above is one of the most gross, ridiculous, stupid brown nose comments one could ever hear from Trumpesters. What he did is childish, vulgar name calling that is the most disgusting, disrespectful and low class behavior in a presidential debate. Again, it shows Trump voters are coward copy of Trump, they are same vile but too timid to be the real version.

Well, you might want to take your argument up with CNN:
'Dilbert creator Scott Adams calls out Trump's 'linguistic kill shots'

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Joaniepoanie

Ann.......you dont think Trump is arrogant?

Margo....the msm didnt think Trump would win so they didnt really cover him as they should have. They covered his antics and his rallys, but there wasnt much in depth reporting about his corrupt business practices, sexual harrassment allegations, etc....until the Access Hollywood tape....too little too late at that point. Of course Fox watching Trump supporters wouldn't have been any the wiser either way.

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Caree

'azmom: The above is one of the most gross, ridiculous, stupid brown nose comments one could ever hear from Trumpesters. What he did is childish, vulgar name calling that is the most disgusting, disrespectful and low class behavior in a presidential debate. Again, it shows Trump voters are coward copy of Trump, they are same vile but too timid to be the real version.'

Hmmm. Let's take a pause for some reflection here. LOL


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Caree

Sandyc: 'A young black writer I heard interviewed on racism and President Obama, said the must feared thing was not our first black president but our first successful black president by right wing racists'

Kathy: 'I do believe the Republicans were fearful Obama would be too popular and that is why they sabatoged him from day one. Race probably played a portion of the fear ....fear he would favor blacks maybe..but mainly I think they feared his intelligence and popularity thinking he would be a black Kennedy.'

This stuff is really bizarre (although not for HT). If you are going to make such claims you really need to elaborate. Then provide some facts to substantiate.

Otherwise you look more like white supremacists or Russians infiltrating social media trying to divide and destroy America.

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Rina

It seems to me that perhaps the perceptions of the man himself, his character and personality, are not so different for everyone. It's more a difference of whether one thinks that his character and personality matter if he pursues his promised agenda. I speak very generally, of course. I know there are those that think his character is good and his personality appealing. My difficulty is that I believe he is a person of low morality (in the broadest sense, not just his behaviour towards women) and that I don't believe that an immoral person can be successful in pursuing a moral agenda. The influence of his own character will skew the results.

I once believed that South Africa's Jacob Zuma would not necessarily make a bad president. I believed it because he was talking up a good game about concentrating on ameliorating the dreadful life conditions of the poor, which is the single most important issue in the country. I knew he was no saint, but I also thought that he was easily influenced and there were enough people of good moral character around him to keep him on that track. I was wrong. He was instead influenced by corrupt business people who bought his influence. This is a recent comment by a senior politician in his party:

“It’s us who got South Africa into this mess by electing Zuma to be president. We should have looked closely into the man. With hindsight we made a terrible error of judgment,” he said.

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Rina

Another thought: could the polarisation not be the result of the fear that I think is pervading a large part (at least) of the world? We do as a species seem to have outgrown our ability to govern ourselves -- "things fall apart". Fear would tend to exaggerate any opinions that might otherwise be strong but not extreme.

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cait1

I've read all the comments and have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about because what's it's supposed to be about isn't coming through in comments.

Tweets:

Who cares? I think a lot of them are funny, meant to be provacative, intended to rile the other side.

If you want them to stop, don't read them. Then at least they've 'stopped' for you.

Demeanor:

I kinda like brash.... but then again, I'm a New Yorker (city) so don't see 'brash' the way people in other parts of the country see brash.

True story... went to visit friends who moved out West. In a conversation with one and she suddenly started smiling. I had know idea what I said that was funny and asked. She said it wasn't what I said but what I did - I interrupted her and finished her sentence. Huh? I had no idea what she was talking about. She said NYers had the habit of finishing another person's sentence then adding their thought then having the end of their though trampled by the person they were speaking to who would finished the other's sentence and so on and so on. I was like, and that's supposed to be rude? She said outside of NY it was considered rude. I thought that ridiculous.

NYers have the NY thing going on. It's ingrained. It's a part of who they are. I always thought NYers were the most tolerant people out of all the States. We let so much slide. We have our rants then its over. No biggie.

Did you know they thought the Seinfeld sitcom wouldn't make it because it was too New Yorkee? What did they know.

I like that Trump is who he is and that he doesn't wear a different face now that he's prez. If you're not true to yourself you're true to nothing.

Way up there whynot wrote:

I wanted the pomp and circumstance to accompany our "royalty"

Ugh. I want a prez I can go up to and speak with. I bow to no one. People make too big a deal out of politicians. They're supposed to be our servants, not our masters. No one 'leads' me... I aint a dog on a leash. Why do people make themselves subservient to those they hired to do a job? I don't give a carp what foreign politicians think, either. Why does anyone care what other people think? Have you so little confidence in yourself that you needs others approvals?

I don't get it. And don't give me the BS that he'll put foreign pols off by his behavior... people are either going to work with America or they won't and my bet is that despite who sits in the WH, they're going to work with America.

Final observation

People are making too big a deal about Trump. Too much projection going on. If America falls economically, it won't be Trump's fault but all the banksters, corps and BigGov before him that laid the path to destruction. Despite what you may believe, the last 8 years weren't utopia. BOs regime added $9trillion to the debt. BO added more war to the list of America's adventurism. Those two things alone are huge economic killers.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I was looking forward to what you had to say, cait, but I was disappointed. Being so dismissive of him and his behavior is hardly insightful. And as far as the "it's ok 'cause I'm a NYer", doesn't cut it for me...it clearly didn't cut it for NYers, esp in Manhattan where they know him best:


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Annie Deighnaugh

I agree wholeheartedly that those who master the soundbite have a huge leg up in any campaign: If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. You can chant "lock her up," you can chant, "build a wall". You can't chant "stronger together". Heck how many even knew that was her campaign motto? Everyone, trump supporter or not, knew MAGA. Everyone.

Whether you're a trump supporter or not, I don't think anyone can deny that he and his team knew how to market and get their message out...how to draw attention and make a splash. If trump &co weren't so good at it, he'd not be pres today.

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azmom

"Well, you might want to take your argument up with CNN:
'Dilbert creator Scott Adams calls out Trump's 'linguistic kill shots'"

Scott Adams? Dilbert? Yawn.

You ought to know not everyone views a (out of date) cartoonist's opinions as gospel.

Not everyone is interested in Emperor's new clothes, actually to be precise, who believes Emperor has new clothes.

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dandyfopp

Middle class want to pay lower taxes. Although the current bill does not give them lower taxes as long as he says they will pay less they want to believe him.


^^^

That is the whole thing in a nutshell.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Who you gonna believe? trump or your own lyin' eyes...

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azmom

"Whether you're a trump supporter or not, I don't think anyone can deny that he and his team knew how to market and get their message out...how to draw attention and make a splash."

I disagree, it all depends on the audiences. There are always a segment of population who are mindless, foolish, ignorant, easily be persuaded, and willfully being blind and deaf, such as those who purchase pet rocks.

Of course Trumpesters take those to the next level. It is clear that most of them are of middle or low income brackets, their willingness to help the riches and sacrifice their own benefit is astonishing. Well, cannot save all victims!

"If trump &co weren't so good at it, he'd not be pres today."

No, they are not that good. Looking back with the evidences that have been continuously surfacing, the election result is more and more questionable....we shall see.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I find an interesting parallel between trump and his role as president in light of all the sexual harassment claims against other powerful, well known men. If you're good at what you do, people will forgive you many things. Ailes was quite a genius when it came to bringing men to power and running a communications network. Weinstein was clearly an entertainment genius with 300 oscar nominations including 20 for best picture.

But at some point, the weight of evidence, the costs involved and public sentiment against you become overwhelming and then you're out. When that tipping point of public sentiment is reached, no one knows...

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dandyfopp

Trump voters already ignored his accusers.

Roy Moore is busy re-numbing them all to child abuse.




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Annie Deighnaugh

azmom, I disagree. trump had ALL the networks following his every breath and burp for months and months during the campaign while hillary was barely covered. He got millions and millions of dollars worth of free airtime. That is excellent marketing.

Moreover, there were a lot of well educated and well informed, higher income people who supported trump. To claim that the mindless predominated is disrespectful, insulting and wrong. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/?utm_term=.4600c6952d68

...and leave my pet rocks out of this! ;)

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chloe203

"Of course Trumpesters take those to the next level. It is clear that most of them are of middle or low income brackets, their willingness to help the riches and sacrifice their own benefit is astonishing. Well, cannot save all victims!"

They have been doing that for years not just with this election.

Hook them in with abortion or religion and they will follow them off the cliff.

And of course it doesn't hurt, that they mainly watch a republican propaganda network.

If a real news program comes on at that network they change the channel.

The poster that the OP has been trying to engage has said many times over the last months that when trump says one thing, he really doesn't mean it.

And then she assigns something more palatable to what he just said.

ETA trump didn't win with only the above characterized voters

Most of the republicans in congress also voted for him as well as main stream republicans of every socio-economic class.

And now they moan woe is me! Give me a break. They looked the other way and pulled

the lever for this slimeball. Tribalism at it's finest.

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whynottryit

So many comments since I left last night. Because this one specifically mentioned me, I will respond to it while trying to process the others.

Cait said: Way up there whynot wrote:

I wanted the pomp and circumstance to accompany our "royalty"

Ugh. I want a prez I can go up to and speak with. I bow to no one.

I want both. A president whose constituents can go up to and speak with and one who is "regal" enough to deal with kings and queens and leaders of other countries without making us look like the drunk uncle at the Christmas party or the Ugly American of the Vietnam era. I believe we need both and we deserve both. I think there are things worthy of ceremony and that we should be able to stand proud of our leaders whether we agree with their policies or not. We should be able to be proud of their character, their knowledge, and their willingness to learn, to lead, and to serve. Everyone has faults that can and should be overlooked but some should be rejected. There has not been one president in my lifetime that I could not find some redeeming quality that I could admire, until now. Even if it was only their desire to do what they thought would be good for the country (whether I agreed or not), I could admire that desire. Even Nixon, as paranoid as he was, at least, had an intelligent mind though, by the time he took office, that seemed to have not served him as well as one could have hoped. The current president has yet to show me his good qualities. I keep hoping to see the man, not the roles he is playing. If I am seeing the real man, then there is nothing there I can respect. There is an overall sense of selfishness, disdain, and entitlement about him that is in direct conflict with the position he holds that I can't get past.

Just as an aside, Cait, the talking over each other isn't a solely NY trait. My family did it all the time down here in the deep south. It drives me nuts when people stop talking because I interrupted but, sometimes, you just have to get that thought out before it flies out the window and you lose it.


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ojo_sigo

A simplistic view of honesty believes that you say whatever first comes to mind and if this hurts someone, then it is their problem. The OED defines honesty as uprightness of disposition and conduct; integrity, truthfulness, straightforwardness.note that all are required not, just straightforwardness as cait suggests. Political correctness and honesty are not the same things, and PC tends to be ridiculous when it seems so easy to offend.

When we have no idea what goes on in government other than from TV shows it can seem stiff and beyond our understanding what with intrigues and backstabbing so when a disruptive voice enters the field this seems refreshing because it is different. But the novelty wears off quickly, and when the only game in town is to invent another shock, this gets tired very quickly.

People hang on to Trump apparently not allowing any questions regarding their loyalty. I posted a link to an article a couple of weeks ago that suggested we (generic) do not like to admit mistakes and choose to ignore (turn a blind eye to) evidence that proves we are wrong.


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chase_gw

One thing is clear given the posts on this thread.

Half the country will call the report bogus when Mueller makes his findings public,

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Half the country or 30%?

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chase_gw

I was speaking figuratively....no matter which way it goes there will not be a general acceptance.

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whynottryit

ojo_sigo

A simplistic view of honesty believes that you say whatever first comes to mind and if this hurts someone, then it is their problem.

Mudhouse said:

That's the absolute moment I realized how much I had come to completely accept the idea that there are just some things you can't say. Even though I see myself as a conservative who says what I think, and who values free speech, and the diversity of ideas, I had taken to heart the understanding that certain words are absolutely fatal. I had absorbed it into my bones. You can't say stuff like that.

But I was wrong. I woke up. Trump did that (for me.)

Ojo's comment reminded me of my reaction to Mudhouse's comment last night.

In my late teens and early 20s, I prided myself on being brutally honest. Emphasis on brutal. I gave myself permission to "tell it like it is" and not hold back regardless of who it hurt or what the consequences were. After all, how could I be blamed if what I was saying was true. As I got older, I gradually (very gradually) learned that it does matter and that the truth does not always heal but can cut deeply and destroy relationships and that I don't have to always tell everything I know, especially when I was using it as a weapon and not as a way to help people. So I changed my methods of telling the truth. I softened my approach. I still told the truth but I didn't make it so hard to accept. I didn't stab people with it. I tried to help them. I cannot abide lies. I have a hard time telling one because I can't do it well but I am extremely good at recognizing them. I can also be good at ignoring them when I want to. Usually I know that I am doing so and have made a conscious choice not to face the lie straight on. I don't think we should do that for anyone in political office. Of course there are the usual vague campaign promises that we all recognize and ignore but when we get down to the elements of character and motive, we need to know the truth. I need to be able to trust that if a President sends troops to fight in another country, that he has done all he can to prevent it before he has to take that action. I need to know he's not doing it for political or personal gain. I need to know that an alliance with a questionable nation is not because he has a financial interest that will be enhanced by that alliance. I can't know what specific things may happen during his term before he is elected but if I can trust his character and his motive, I can trust him to do what he feels is for the good of the country. This is where I part ways with Trump.

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cait1

Being so dismissive of him and his behavior is hardly insightful. And
as far as the "it's ok 'cause I'm a NYer", doesn't cut it for me...it
clearly didn't cut it for NYers, esp in Manhattan where they know him
best

Nowhere did I write, "it's ok" like some kind of stamp of approval. DO NOT rewrite my comments. You're not my editor.

You've comment means nothing. NY is a dem stronghold. They voted for HC b/c she's a dem... had nothing to do with Trump's behavior. de Blasio acts out all the time and progs brush his carp off like nothing... same freeking difference.

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Kathy

Whynot...you took the words right out of my mouth .....and improved them too....

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cait1

Even if it was only their desire to do what they thought would be good
for the country (whether I agreed or not), I could admire that desire
.

???

Are you saying that you don't believe Trump wants to do any good for the country? What do you think MAGA is, then?

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whynottryit

cait1

Even if it was only their desire to do what they thought would be good
for the country (whether I agreed or not), I could admire that desire
.

???

Are you saying that you don't believe Trump wants to do any good for the country? What do you think MAGA is, then?

No, Cait, I'm sorry. I don't think he does. I think he wants to do what is good for him. MAGA is a brand, a product. He sells his hats and his shirts and his mugs and whatever else he can. I don't even know that Make America Great Again actually means. There's no definition for it. Was America not great? Was it ever? I have never understood the rationale behind the slogan other than just a catch phrase to rally around. The economy has been on the rise for several years. There are problems, but we have been working on them. We have never been perfect. What period of time in our history was so "great" that we want to reclaim it instead of moving forward to maybe "Make America Better". If you recall, he started with "Make America Great" but that flubbed. I think it was pointed out that using that slogan implied we weren't already great and that wouldn't go over well. So MAGA came to be. So, I see it as product marketing. It has no meaning other than that to me.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I’d want to know, what’s more important, keeping a seat in government republican, or protecting the most vulnerable? If it’s the former, what persuasive evidence do you have that convinces you that this importance placed in seat-keeping doesn’t harm the most vulnerable, and another thing - why other people shouldn’t believe you support harming vulnerable groups??

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it obviously must be an evil liberal elitist plot to bring the country into globalist socialism and take all the guns away?

No!!! It’s a duck!

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Margo

. I can't know what specific things may happen during his term before he is elected but if I can trust his character and his motive, I can trust him to do what he feels is for the good of the country. This is where I part ways with Trump.

aaah whynot, this is where I parted ways with Obama. I wanted to trust his character and his motive but as the years went on in his presidency I realized as he stated himself that he was out to fundamentally change America. I always say " sometimes things are not what they seem" and for me Obama was polished but way to slippery.

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Kathy
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ann_t

"What do you think MAGA is, then?"

OMG!!! You aren't serious are you?

MAGA is a slogan. One that apparently the gullible fell for.

Dementia Don's interest isn't making America great. His only interest is doing whatever it takes to benefit himself and his family at the taxpayers expense.

Remember his products are not being manufactured by American workers.

His tax reform is all in his favour , including getting rid of the 'death tax". Which apparently could save his family a cool billion.

I wonder if anyone has told him he has to die first?

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Margo

As far as MAGA... it is a campaign slogan. He has the incredible talent of picking labels that stick. Everybody wants things to be great or great again. The left likes to think this means "Make America White Again", which is ridiculous, but when you play the race card all day long then what can you expect?

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whynottryit

Margot, I get that. I really do. I didn't trust Obama when he was first running because of the way he handled the situation with his pastor of 25 years when the pastor was accused of racism (I think I'm remembering that right but I know there was a controversy). He said he'd never heard the man speak like that. I didn't buy that and I didn't like his revolving door of campaign workers when they made a gaffe with the press and he kicked them out. I felt his loyalty was lacking. And his eyes looked vacant to me. I know, maybe silly reasons but there they were. I didn't like the way he pushed Obamacare out but I did understand the frustration of Congress sitting on its heels and not accomplishing anything. There are many things wrong with Obamacare but there was even more wrong with insurance companies having so much control over healthcare. So something did need to be done. Anyway, I had my own problems with Obama but I do believe he cared about the country as a whole. Not just white Americans or black American or other POC. I am not one who is missing the good old days of his particular presidency but I do miss the personal integrity he and others brought to the office.

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mayflowers

And the rest of mudhouse's quote:

When I first came to HT, I remember posting that I thought Trump's
lack of political correctness was a little refreshing. I was being
honest, but I was surprised by the aggressive push back against my
comment, and I retreated.

I don't retreat from it any more, and this is probably another big
chunk of why I interpret Trump differently from many people here. Over
the last year I've become even more convinced that political correctness
was affecting my own ability to speak honestly, although I didn't even
realize it. I had slowly but surely stopped saying things I believed, to
almost anyone, except in the privacy of my own house. Because I didn't
want to be perceived as rude, or ugly, or unintelligent.

Words have an impact, and they can be used carelessly, and cruelly.
We shouldn't do that if we can avoid it, and I try not to. (I won't
argue that Trump doesn't worry about it like I do.) But speaking
generally, words don't kill people. That's what Trump taught me when he
made the statement about John McCain. You can say stuff, and the sun
will still come up tomorrow.

If Trump disappears from the earth tomorrow, I will always be
grateful to him for waking me up. And to be honest, that revelation
about my own paralysis because of political correctness was so big I
totally forgot to be offended on behalf of veterans.

(Too much honesty?)

~~~~~~~~~

I read this last night and it has bothered me right through to this morning. I am so glad that whynot has chosen not to let it slide by.

Mudhouse, you've taken the worse from trump and now thank him for it. He has changed your behavior and you're grateful. In effect, he has become your role model in this one area. Trump, the little rich boy who complains and whines about everything and everyone, can get away with it because of his wealth and power. You can't because you have to live in the real world, not holed up in Trump Tower, but I would like to see you try it so you can see for yourself how it works for you. Words don't kill people, true. But what good do they do besides make you feel free? I have asked of conservatives what it is that political
correctness prevents them from saying, but they don't answer. I suppose trump hasn't freed them enough to show their true selves, but maybe as trump continues to work his magic, we'll see what that looks like.

Last summer when you excused trump's lack of morals by explaining why morals don't have any bearing on his role as president, I realized you are no different than any of the other trumpeters here. You just wrap it up in a prettier package. With your new freedom courtesy of DT, I would like to see you practice what you've learned from Donald Trump here on the forum. Don't hold back because if there's anything the forum hates, it's hypocrisy.

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ojo_sigo

Sam Harris wrote a little book called 'Lying' he has some interesting thoughts about that old chestnut "Does my bum look big in this?" He thinks you should be honest, in other words, offer your opinion. He goes on to say that in some circumstances you might lie but in no circumstances would you say, "God yes, that, and everything else you wear.".

Restraint is essential when dealing with the size of someone's rear and in diplomatic circles. The thought that offers up "short and fat" when referring to an antagonist is best restrained; you can have the opinion just don't tweet it.

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Kathy

Hate crimes have increased so it seems many people/groups feel they are more free to vote their opinions.More synagogue, mosques and churches are targeted.

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Margo

Well, not sure we will ever get the "perfect" candidate or president. Everyone has their faults. We all tend to over look the flaws of the person that best suits our overall ideology. Obama ran his course and I wish Trump could run his course without so much resistance. Maybe some would actually be surprised if they put down the gauntlet.

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Kathy

I am waiting to see how he fares after Mueller is finished.

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Margo

. Don't hold back because if there's anything the forum hates, it's hypocrisy.

Seriously mayflowers, I see hypocrisy running rampant all day long the forum??

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whynottryit

Margo, do you read his tweets, like directly from his feed? Do you listen to his words when he's not reading from a prompter? Have you connected the dots on the people of whom he is the most disdainful? I don't have rosy colored glasses on about him or anyone else. Can you really see what he is doing and saying? I'm not trying to be obstinate but rather trying to get you to look deep into him and past the surface. I have known men like him all my life. I know their swagger and their sense of self-importance. They have lived in the South for centuries. They were the plantation owners, the George Wallaces, the Big Jim Folsoms. They are corrupt and narcissistic. They are smooth and flashy and put on a great show but that's all they are, show. They have no inner guidance or direction. It's all about immediate gratification. They don't think beyond the moment. Maybe you've not experienced those types in politics like we have here. We are still battling them. Gov Bentley resigned because his corruption got too big to contain. Roy Moore has charted his own destructive course for decades. Louisiana had Huey Long. Trump is one of them. Not a republican but a self-absorbed individual that sees glory in the position and wants that added to his resume. There's no humility, no mercy, no sense of service, none of the qualities we have all cherished over the course of our history. There wouldn't be a gauntlet had he not created it and continued to encourage it. The media is not making up the things he says. They may be amplifying it but he's saying them and his words stand all by themselves without any help from anyone.

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ojo_sigo


Margo said.

Well, not sure we will ever get the "perfect" candidate or president. Everyone has their faults. We all tend to over look the flaws of the person that best suits our overall ideology. Obama ran his course and I wish Trump could run his course without so much resistance. Maybe some would actually be surprised if they put down the gauntlet.

Firstly, the notion that an ideology makes us blind to anything else is false, although no one votes in the expectancy of a perfect president it would be foolish to vote just because he is the parties choice. Furthermore, if you can see an ideology in Trump can you say what it is?

Your sentence about 'the gauntlet' makes no sense because it is removing and throwing down a gauntlet that issues a challenge.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I’d prefer those faults in people who have decided to become politicians and represent us in the government, did not include allowing for the harm of the vulnerable and definitely not under any circumstances victimize the vulnerable themselves.

As I know that people are imperfect, I want to have politicians who will take a stand, to hold those who violate the law and abuse their power accountable - we have laws and standards people are expected to meet, and nobody is perfect - this is a good time to mention the quote about “evil triumphs when good men do nothing” and substitute people for the ‘men’ part.

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ojo_sigo

Interesting stuff from Mother Jones t the link if anyone is still following along

I attended a presentation called “Reaching Out to Trump Voters,” sponsored by the Berkeley, California, chapter of Indivisible. The speakers, cognitive linguist George Lakoff and sociologist Arlie Hochschild (who has written about Trump supporters for Mother Jones), had essentially the same advice: Don’t argue policy. Political thought springs from moral constructs embedded deep in our neural circuitry, and from governing metaphors—what Hochschild calls “the deep story”—that explain how the world feels. “Telling people the facts over and over and over, that’s not going to do anything,” Lakoff said. “What will work is talking at the level of the heart.”



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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I guess I just don’t like the message when 45 is speaking from his heart - or has someone else do the speaking. I don’t like the message from Moore’s heart because his heart says it’s okay to sexually assault and harass teens, his heart decides that the rapist whose victim was 4 year old shouldn’t be in jail forever and that the court didn’t give the rapist a fair trial, and his heart leads him down the road of terrible that ends in evil town.

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Margo

Your sentence about 'the gauntlet' makes no sense because it is removing and throwing down a gauntlet that issues a challenge.

OK- if I messed up the actual meaning of throwing down a gauntlet. Sorry, I think whynot got my intended meaning. I have a tendency to screw up words meanings as the true meaning and use them to what make sense to me, if this even makes sense, lol. Remember I am a Cult45 member ;P

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whynottryit

Your sentence about 'the gauntlet' makes no sense because it is removing and throwing down a gauntlet that issues a challenge.

I think Margo had more the idiomatic "run the gauntlet" in mind.

run the gauntlet

Be exposed to danger, criticism, or other adversity, as in After he was misquoted in the interview, he knew he wouldhave to run the gauntlet of his colleagues' anger . This term, dating from the first half of the 1600s, comes from theword gantlope, which itself comes from the Swedish word gatlopp, for "lane-course." It referred to a form of militarypunishment where a man ran between two rows of soldiers who struck him with sticks or knotted ropes. Almost assoon as gantlope appeared, it was replaced by gauntlet. The word was being used figuratively for other kinds ofpunishment by 1661, when Joseph Glanvill wrote, "To print, is to run the gantlet, and to expose oneself to the tonguesstrapado" ( The Vanity of Dogmatizing, or Confidence in Opinion).


SOURCE

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Linguistic kill shot = demagoguery.

Setting aside the factual reasons that I want Trump far, far away from the halls of power, my gut instinct screamed "NO" at hearing him speak and his voicing his ideas. My con-man radar was maxed out, and my salesman-say-anything meter was on overload. And the demagoguery alarm blasted full force -- NO WAY, NO HOW.

Then reading the investigative reports on his business dealings, self-induced failures leading to bankruptcies, real estate swindles, Trump University scam, shady business partners as in serious crimes, mob associations, my gut reaction was confirmed.

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ojo_sigo

That must be it Whynot.

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mudhouse

The poster that the OP has been trying to engage...

Um, I'm right here, Grapeleaves.

...has said many times over the last months that when trump says one thing, he really doesn't mean it....And then she assigns something more palatable to what he just said.

No, I've never said that. I have said things much like the examples that arthurpym posted above:

arthurpym: We, as partisans, have a tendency to look at and perceive the 'other' side, no matter what that is, as wrong. It's really that simple.

... Under the ACA, Obama opponents point to his statement that if you like your plan, you can keep your plan. And when that didn't happen for everyone, they saw the whole plan as flawed and a failure. However, believers are more interested in the idea that millions are now covered under health insurance, rather than the few that lost the plans they liked. It's all about perspective.


Another example I can think of: "build the wall." Some say Trump meant a solid wall built of concrete/blocks on every linear foot of our southern border. I think Trump means whatever barrier is appropriate for the changing geography (hills, rivers, etc) and supplemented by other security. The first interpretation would be impossible; the latter would be practical. Makes sense to me, but when I say I interpret Trump's statement as the latter, people who are intent on proving that Trump lies about everything present it as proof of yet another lie.

I think both sides do this. I think it's human nature. We both perceive the other guy as wrong, almost automatically. Trying not to do that is hard.

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whynottryit



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chloe203

Mudhouse, I'm referring to conversations right after the election not this thread.

I was told that you don't take him literally, but instead when he says X, you know he means Y.

I don't have time to go back and find the thread.

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dandyfopp

Yes interpretation is key.

Trump's wall is anything you imagine, lately its been solar and transparent. Soon it will be invisible. And when he said Mexico would pay for it, he really meant American citizens would pay for it.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I recall Trump saying in one of speeches that his real estate expertise makes him the ideal person to construct a wall, and not in a metaphorical sense. Further pronouncements saw the height of the wall varying iirc.


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whynottryit

The video above is his speech in Phoenix just after returning from Mexico while he was a candidate.

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mudhouse

Rina: It seems to me that perhaps the perceptions of the man himself, his character and personality, are not so different for everyone. It's more a difference of whether one thinks that his character and personality matter if he pursues his promised agenda. I speak very generally, of course.

I know there are those that think his character is good and his personality appealing. My difficulty is that I believe he is a person of low morality (in the broadest sense, not just his behaviour towards women) and that I don't believe that an immoral person can be successful in pursuing a moral agenda. The influence of his own character will skew the results.

Well stated Rina. I think that there are very big differences in the perception of Trump, but your comment makes me wonder if the larger differences (or at least the more important ones?) lie in the area of intent, and goals, than character and personality. I think (?) it was my comments to whynot about how she perceived Trump's general intent/goals/end game that finally prompted this thread.

This would make sense to me because I had no conflict with Obama's personality, but I did have conflict with his goals. Disagreements about a leader's personality and morality are upsetting for his supporters, but I think they may be largely unresolvable, because these judgements are often subjective enough to argue about. People have been arguing about morality since the dawn of time, and will go on doing so.

(Of course here come the posts insisting "morality is not subjective, mudhouse!" but my point is we can argue about whether or not somebody is moral forever, and we're probably unlikely to budge on our initial assessments.)

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whynottryit

Mudhouse: it was my comments to whynot about how she perceived Trump's general intent/goals/end game that finally prompted this thread.

Yes, quite true. So now, could you give me your perception of his general intent/goals/end game?

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whynottryit

And by the way, there may be some moral absolutes but yes, I agree that much of morality is subjective and depends greatly on life experience and location.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

thank you for the video, whynot.

Trump gives a text-book example of demagoguery in that excerpt.


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mudhouse

Grapeleaves: Mudhouse, I'm referring to conversations right after the election not this thread. I was told that you don't take him literally, but instead when he says X, you know he means Y.

Thanks, that helps me. It was Salena Zito that first posted that observation about Trump, right after the election, in this article in the Atlantic: Taking Trump Seriously, Not LIterally

Zito: "It’s a familiar split. When he makes claims like this, the press takes him literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally."

And you're right, I have referred to her comment, and I also think you're right, this plays a big role in why we all argue endlessly about whether or not Trump lies.

To pursue this a little further, do you think there is any difference between these two statements?

1. I take Trump seriously, but not always literally.

2. Trump says one thing, but doesn't really mean it.

I think they are different. The first one means I take his message seriously, but my understanding of the message doesn't hang on the literal interpretation of every single word. In other words, if there is any one part of the message that can't always be literally correct, I don't jump to the conclusion that the whole message is false. I still take the intent of the message seriously.

"We're gonna build a big beautiful wall" doesn't mean, to me, he is promising to literally build a solid wall. It means border security.

"It's gonna have a big beautiful door in it" doesn't mean, to me, one giant door in a wall like in an Alice in Wonderland movie; it means there will be places to cross the border, legally.

To me, the second statement (taken from your post above) means I think Trump is dishonest. Maybe this is a difference in how we perceive communications.

(edited, thank you whynot, for adding the video. In that video, do you think Trump is saying the wall will be a solid wall with no other technologies involved? He says "an impenetrable, tall, physical, powerful, beautiful, southern border wall," and says "we will use the best technology, including above and below ground sensors, towers, aerial surveillance, manpower to supplement the wall, find and locate tunnels." This description makes sense to me. Does it seem to you that Trump is lying about the wall? Just trying to understand how we differ here.

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whynottryit

Does it seem to you that Trump is lying about the wall? Just trying to understand how we differ here.

I think he's promising a physical, big, imposing wall with tall towers, lots of border patrol, regulated entrances, and technology that will employ sensors both above and below ground. I think he's being quite specific. He also said that Mexico will pay for the wall "though they don't know it yet."

I think the lies came later when he started backing off all of his promises. "On Day 1" was a favorite phrase and he promised an impossible number of things that would happen on day 1. I think he's a salesman and he was selling himself to voters by promising impossibilities. I don't really blame him per se for doing that. That's his background. What I don't understand is how so many believed that he would actually do the things he said he would. Figuratively or literally. I think it takes a lot of verbal gymnastics to get from building a wall as specific as he continually described to merely meaning border control. Can you explain that process to me?

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mudhouse

Sure, I'll try. Lemme get this looooong post out of my head first. :-)

Whynottryit: In my late teens and early 20s, I prided myself on being brutally honest.
Emphasis on brutal. I gave myself permission to "tell it like it is" and not hold back regardless of who it hurt or what the consequences were. After all, how could I be blamed if what I was saying was true. As I got older, I gradually (very gradually) learned that it does matter and that the truth does not always heal but can cut deeply and destroy relationships and that I don't have to always tell everything I know, especially when I was using it as a weapon and not as a way to help people.


I completely understand this. I think many of us have learned the same thing, as kids or as teens. My pushback is, this kind of "honesty at all costs" is not what I'm talking about, and I hope you've read enough of my posts to believe me when I say I work hard to avoid statements that cut deeply or hurt people. I can't think when I do this except in heated family arguments, and I always regret it afterwards.

If you thought I was saying that Trump was right in saying what he did about McCain, I was unclear. I was shocked at what he said. But on the heels of that shock, came the revelation that even though he said it, the world didn't end. I don't know how else to explain that this was a big surprise to me, and I don't think I'm the only one feeling that way. That's why I thought it was a valid inclusion in this thread, and as I said, possibly a big chunk of why I perceive Trump differently. Trump clobbered a fear of political correctness in my heart that I didn't even know I was harboring.

Over the last several decades, as my own political beliefs seemed to become less and less represented by what I saw in the media and in my own community (blue city, blue state) I began to think I didn't have the right to even express my disagreement out loud. Because doing so would prove that I was rude, unsophisticated, out of touch, backwards, selfish, greedy...all the adjectives often used here to describe conservatives. Who wants to be seen that way? Nobody.

The right to be more honest about my own beliefs is what my post was about; not being cruel, damaging, thoughtless or childish with my words. It was meant to be an honest post about finding new permission to be honest. I don't think any other presidential candidate would have provided this revelation for me. For me, that is a silver lining in the brash, blunt, inelegant way that Trump communicates. I knew when I posted it would be an immensely unpopular admission here, but it's honest.

I cannot abide lies. I have a hard time telling one because I can't do it well but I am extremely good at recognizing them. I can also be good at ignoring them when I want to. Usually I know that I am doing so and have made a conscious choice not to face the lie straight on. I don't think we should do that for anyone in political office.

I know; I can't abide lies either, but here we are back in the tangled knot of disagreeing about whether or not Trump lies. I think this is one knot in the fishing line that will just have to stay knotted.

Of course there are the usual vague campaign promises that we all recognize and ignore but when we get down to the elements of character and motive, we need to know the truth. I need to be able to trust that if a President sends troops to fight in another country, that he has done all he can to prevent it before he has to take that action. I need to know he's not doing it for political or personal gain. I need to know that an alliance with a questionable nation is not because he has a financial interest that will be enhanced by that alliance. I can't know what specific things may happen during his term before he is elected but if I can trust his character and his motive, I can trust him to do what he feels is for the good of the country. This is where I part ways with Trump.

Really well stated, and I agree with you. I have the same requirements for a President. (Does that shock you?) We all take a flying leap of trust when we elect a president. I appreciate your honesty about how Trump's presidency feels to you. I wish I could do a better job of helping you have less fear about his time as president, but I understand that's probably not a realistic goal. (I still think this dialogue has been worthwhile.)

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

My fear about trusting what Trump says can be summed up in two words: Trump University.

As the two lawsuits in NY and CA were well covered during the long campaign, there's no point in going over all the false advertising.

False advertising = lies to the public.

Absolutely no reason to trust Trump.

(Also the class action suit re Baja California condo development which charged misrepresentation of developer and Trump's involvement.)

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Ann

Yes, quite true. So now, could you give me your perception of his general intent/goals/end game?

I know this question wasn't directed to me, but I think his intent/goals/end game is precisely the specific things he discussed during his campaign. I listed 7 of them above. I think the policy direction of the right is so troubling to the left (and vice versa) that they seem to think, if they keep questioning his goals, his goals might magically change. I don't think they will. When the party you oppose is in the majority, it's certainly uncomfortable to watch what gets enacted. Especially, when those goals are so opposite of your own and the goals redirect the country's future in new ways (at least temporarily, but usually fairly permanently). I think some are making too much of Trump's personality or behavior. None of that will matter when he's no longer in office, but his policies will certainly have made a difference - just exactly as we've seen with things like SS, Medicare, Obamacare, tax reform, etc. These things become part and parcel to the functioning of the country and it's not like they can be undone with a poof.

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chase_gw

"None of that will matter when he's no longer in office"

Yes it will. That is what is so frustrating to me. Some don't see the wrench he is putting into American society, how he is causing a populist divide, the undermining of fundamental institutions like the Justice Department, the terrible example he sets for American children. More important the standard of behaviour he sets for all Presidents to come. ETA These things won't easily go away...they will scar the American landscape for a very long time.

His behaviour is unacceptable and why people cant say . I am for his policies but abhor his behaviours is beyond me. There is only one answer.......they in fact believe his behaviours are AOK.

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whynottryit

We all take a flying leap of trust when we elect a president.

Some leaps are larger than others. In the last election, I felt I was vaulting over the moon with both candidates. The deciding factor for me was that HRC at least had experience in government while DJT had none and his business acumen was questionable at best. I had seen him in action on the Apprentice and wasn't impressed with his management style either but figured that was show business and didn't really count. However, I did an enormous amount of research into his business dealings, his modeling agency, Trump U, his charitable donations, lawsuits against him. By research, I mean finding as close to the original documents as possible. I went to court websites and found the original complaints and documents filed with any of the suits available. I researched his doctor and found that the father of his current doctor (who Trump said had been his doctor for a long time) was actually a gynecologist. That made no sense to me. I tracked down publications in which the older doctor had written articles. As late as April of 2016, he was still listed on the Lennox Hospital website but by the end of May (and after I had contacted a number of news outlets with the information) the listing was gone. Probably coincidental but I think the hospital realized he was still listed after DJT's medical letter was released and took it down. I probably did enough research to have written at least a master's thesis on his life and businesses. So I did not reject him lightly even though my gut was screaming "Nooooo!" Because of HRC's long history in the spotlight, I already knew enough to know that I didn't want her if there was any chance of a better choice but there wasn't. I checked out Gary Johnson but his ignorance on foreign affairs, his trade policies and his just sheer ineptness knocked him out of the running. All this to say, I wrestled with this decision for a year. I watched all of the things and more that other voters saw and cannot, even now, understand the ability to ignore who the man is, what he's done and still support him.


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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

...Trust his character and motives?

Based on what?

Sure, all the executive orders and any legislation that makes it to his desk to sign will make a difference generally. It's what kind of difference that's concerning. He's been making a concerted effort to get rid of everything that might be considered part of the legacy of Obama's 2 terms as president. His list of potential federal judges is chock full of questionable individuals, his attitude and statements about NK are childish but at the same time worrisome because they essentially are poking the nuclear-armed short and fat bear, and this tax reform plan is a mile square field with landmines every square foot - while he and the 1% are the only ones who have access to the road next to the field and don't need to worry about getting safely across without triggering even one of all those landmines.

So much for leaving the world an okay place for the future generations.

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SandyC.
Trump is a narcissist who has no regard for the constitution.
There needs to be a wall between the Justice Dept and the WH.
He believes he can illegally call for his political opponents and the free press investigations.
He bragged he would block one of his enemies of the free press from a merger.
Totally unconstitutional and could ultimately lead to a mistrial if proven he at all swayed the DOJ.
Nixon’s downfall was his complete lack of respect for the law and our constitution.
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ann_t

"Ann: Trump's agenda to answer Rina (the first 7 points that came to my mind):"

Lower taxes

Only for the rich. Not middle class or poor.

Stronger border

With the wall he promised but hasn't built yet?

Supported military and law enforcement

How? With words? More spending?

Apparently Not.

American's first

He certainly hasn't put American's first.

He hires foreign help for his Clubs. Why not local

Americans?

He still has all of his products manufactured elsewhere.

Increased economy and jobs

His Economic Score card.

He didn't have the issues to deal with that President Obama had

coming into office.

Job gains are slightly lower than under President Obama.

Repeal of Obamacare

Hasn't accomplished this. But that is a good thing.

Take better care of our veterans

The GOP does not have a good record of taking care of your Veterans.

"Jul 24, 2017 - [Republican] House rejects $2 billion in new funding for VA’s healthcare Choice Program."

Source

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

And don't forget, the individual tax cuts are temporary because the republicans are worried they won't be able to pass this without reconciliation rules that only require 51 and Pence voting to approve. This isn't regular order, and shouldn't you guys want to be the better party instead of misguided desire to get petty revenge for the passage of the ACA (dems really did include republicans and got their input, it's just inconvenient that the whole thing was based off of a republican plan to begin with)?

Some of those temporary tax cuts won't even get to middle class pockets and bank accounts, because the way things are set up, what they receive will then have to be spent on something else that went up in cost because of the cuts. Basically canceling things out.

ETA: I'm an independent, and I'm not looking for revenge on republicans, I'm looking for ways to IMPROVE THINGS for a greater number of people, not just those who look, think, and believe the same as me.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I would like to ask the Trump supporters if the class-action lawsuits against Trump University re deceptive advertising (and advising prospective students to assume massive credit card debt for their tuition) was taken into consideration when deciding to back Trump.

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mudhouse

Whynottryit: "On Day 1" was a favorite phrase and he promised an impossible number of things that would happen on day 1. I think he's a salesman and he was selling himself to voters by promising impossibilities. I don't really blame him per se for doing that. That's his background. What I don't understand is how so many believed that he would actually do the things he said he would. Figuratively or literally.

Okay. When you hear "Day One,..." do you really think that will happen? And more importantly, do you really care?

I don't. It's obvious to me, from the start, it's silly politician speak. I don't care if something gets done on Day One, Week One, or Month One. Getting hung up on such a little thing, to me, seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's definitely not anything I'm going to get upset about. I don't even notice this kind of thing, when a politician says it. I don't care who it is.

I think it takes a lot of verbal gymnastics to get from building a wall as specific as he continually described to merely meaning border control. Can you explain that process to me?

Why would I want a consistent treatment for the entire length of the southern border (meaning an uninterrupted big wall) if I know that's not even possible? To me, the only rational interpretation of "the wall" lies within the framework of building something that deals with the realities of the challenge. Maybe it's because I only live about an hour from the border. I know there are mountains, hills, rivers, and lots of very complicated problems involved. I assume some areas won't work for a wall, or would be so expensive it doesn't make sense. In those areas, use other intelligent solutions. This is in no way a violation of any promise. It's the only thing that makes sense, to me. That's been true from the start. Maybe it's because I live so close. (?)

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Margo

whynottryit

I think Margo had more the idiomatic "run the gauntlet" in mind.

ojo_sigo

That must be it Whynot.

LOL- No whynot that is not what I meant.

I meant like put down your guard, you know put down your gauntlet lol lol

I don't mind being the dunce of the group. I still have my opinion and thoughts regardless how little you think of me. I will still laugh even if it at myself;)

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Margo

nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I would like to ask the Trump supporters if the class-action lawsuits against Trump University re deceptive advertising (and advising prospective students to assume massive credit card debt for their tuition) was taken into consideration when deciding to back Trump.

I did not give it one thought.

I guess I looked at anyone who signed up to go to Trump University was the "Get Rich Quick" type. Same with all those Real Estate seminars, etc.

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whynottryit

Yeah, I know Day 1 was an impossibility but it was his way to talk in absolutes. He didn't talk in ideals. He was specific. He was insistent. He was forceful. He never backed down. Until he did. That you can do the mental acrobatics to understand his wall rhetoric yet not understand my Day 1 comment makes me wonder how much work you really did have to do to accept his words. You took me literally but not him. Or is it that it is impossible to take him literally on anything? If that is, in fact, the case, how can I trust that my interpretation, or anyone else's, is correct? Does that not allow for him to be held completely harmless from any change in direction of his policy? I don't understand that thinking. I hold people responsible for what they say. I want to be able to hear or see what someone says and take it as their literal meaning. Not what I want that truth to be but what they actually are saying. So I can't cross that divide. It's not fair to me, to the candidate, or to other voters.

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Margo

I really like these simple one question at a time comments;)) Makes answering easy and direct without caring what you think of my answer. It is what it is;)

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whynottryit

Margo, I apologize. I didn't mean to belittle you at all. I honestly thought that was what you meant. So sorry I misunderstood.

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whynottryit

I have to leave for a while. My eyes are giving me problems. I need to rest them. I'll catch up later.

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Margo

No, need to apologize at all whynot. It made me laugh;))

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Kathy

Mudhouse——I know; I can't abide lies either, but here we are back in the tangled knot of disagreeing about whether or not Trump lies. I think this is one knot in the fishing line that will just have to stay knotted.

This is the whole kit and caboodle in a nutshell.....Trump has been proven to tell so many untruths. It is why he isn’t trusted by most Americans or foreign leaders. If his supporters refuse to acknowledge his lies there really isn’t anything much that can be said to make them understand why he isn’t trusted. They have put their faith in him, no matter what.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

When I read this:

[mudhouse] Another example I can think of: "build the wall." Some say Trump meant a solid wall built of concrete/blocks on every linear foot of our southern border. I think Trump means whatever barrier is appropriate for the changing geography (hills, rivers, etc) and supplemented by other security. The first interpretation would be impossible; the latter would be practical.

It seems like an applicable example of this:

[Grapeleaves]...has said many times over the last months that when trump says one thing, he really doesn't mean it....And then she assigns something more palatable to what he just said.

[mudhouse]Maybe it's because I only live about an hour from the border.

trump said, and meant, a physical wall. The prototypes are of a physical wall. I lived 6 miles from the border for well over a decade. I don't pretend trump meant something different than what he said. I don't believe he intends to actually follow through with a physical wall along the entire border, but he certainly meant it to be believed as such by his gaggle and he certainly is going through the motions just enough to keep the idea there. Proximity to the border does not justify switching his words for some magical must-have-really-meant interpretation.

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Ann

You bet we put our faith in him. Many of us are still thanking our lucky stars at the surprise election outcome. He's working to do exactly what he said he wanted to accomplish and that pleases me very much.

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chase_gw

"Many of us are still thanking our lucky stars at the surprise election outcome."


Thankfully that is a significant minority of Americans.....

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chloe203

You know, I want to believe in the tooth fairy and in Santa Clause and in magic.

But we all know when we grow up, when we're able to think critically, that those are just fantasy.

Assigning something totally different from what he said is just silly.

He said what he said!! End of the story.

Just another case of tribalism as far as I'm concerned.

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mudhouse

Mayflowers: Mudhouse, you've taken the worse from trump and now thank him for it. He has changed your behavior and you're grateful. In effect, he has become your role model in this one area. Trump, the little rich boy who complains and whines about everything and everyone, can get away with it because of his wealth and power. You can't because you have to live in the real world, not holed up in Trump Tower, but I would like to see you try it so you can see for yourself how it works for you.

Mayflowers, sorry it's taken me so long to get to your post. I would much rather have you reply than not respond to something I write, especially if it bothers you.

Your assumption isn't right; Trump is my president, not my role model. I don't think I've ever used a president as a role model, but you may see the role of president differently.

Words don't kill people, true. But what good do they do besides make you feel free?

I don't understand this question. Are you saying what good is expressing my opinion? Words don't make me feel free. I am free.

I have asked of conservatives what it is that political correctness prevents them from saying, but they don't answer. I suppose trump hasn't freed them enough to show their true selves, but maybe as trump continues to work his magic, we'll see what that looks like.

In my community, supporting Trump is politically incorrect. Not long after the election, a nurse tending my mother said to me, "What's Trump's problem with immigrants, anyway? He says he doesn't like them, and then he goes and marries one." So, we talked about the difference between legal and illegal immigration, and Melania.

During a dental appointment, the technician said to me (while she had tools in my mouth!) "And how about that Trump guy, right? He thinks he should be king or something! Who does he think he is!" So, I motioned, swished, spit, and told her I'd voted for him. (She changed the subject. I was relieved, because of the sharp tools she was waving around.)

At the flea market, a vendor we know as a friend said to me, "Wow, I can't believe we elected that guy. We are so screwed." So, I told him I'd voted for him, and we talked about some of our differing viewpoints, with no problems.

In the past, I would've pretended to agree, and changed the subject. I don't any more. I'm never rude or overbearing, but I'm more likely to say what I think. Not a big change, but a good one. I should be able to courteously say what I think about who I vote for, and what I think about issues, even if my take is considered unpopular or unsophisticated. I was wrong to think it was better not to, just to get along.

Last summer when you excused trump's lack of morals by explaining why morals don't have any bearing on his role as president...

Mayflowers, I never said morals don't have any bearing on the role of president. I never said morals don't matter. I did say I don't agree that Trump is immoral, and I did say I don't need Trump to be my moral compass.

...I realized you are no different than any of the other trumpeters here. You just wrap it up in a prettier package. With your new freedom courtesy of DT, I would like to see you practice what you've learned from Donald Trump here on the forum.

I've been saying what I think from the moment I started posting here, and I'll keep doing so.

...if there's anything the forum hates, it's hypocrisy.

Holy cow.

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ojo_sigo

“Telling people the facts over and over and over, that’s not going to do anything,” Lakoff said. “What will work is talking at the level of the heart.”

This snippet is from the link I posted above. I am not sure how to achieve "talking at the level of the heart,” but this thread is ample proof of the truth in the first sentence, and this has sadly been going on for a year.

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arthurpym

Well, to be fair, Ojo, I get that part. On the part of the coal miners, the facts to them were clear; more of their jobs and way of life were going away. That's the facts. Trump gave them hope. For those people (from what I understand of my reading about them), hope was all they have.

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mudhouse

gyr-falcon: trump said, and meant, a physical wall. The prototypes are of a physical wall. I lived 6 miles from the border for well over a decade. I don't pretend trump meant something different than what he said. I don't believe he intends to actually follow through with a physical wall along the entire border, but he certainly meant it to be believed as such by his gaggle and he certainly is going through the motions just enough to keep the idea there. Proximity to the border does not justify switching his words for some magical must-have-really-meant interpretation.

Gyr, thanks, and of course you're welcome to your own opinion about what Trump "meant". I sure can't read his mind. I can only say what my own understanding was.

Would you agree I'm a lot closer to being "a member of his gaggle" (that doesn't sound very prestigious, but let's go with it) than you are? I voted for Trump. I've posted here for months trying to explain my perceptions of him.

As a Trump voter, I'm saying: it never occurred to me that he meant a continuous physical wall along the entire border, because to me, that idea would be stupid. It's not practical, it's not possible, it makes no sense.

I agree with you that my proximity to the border probably isn't helpful. I'm just trying to understand why nobody (apparently?) believes I didn't have a realistic understanding of the wall idea from the start. I don't know what was in Trump's mind, but I sure as heck know what was in my mind.

I have not switched his words for some magical must-have-really-meant interpretation.

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ojo_sigo

Trump gave them hope. For those people (from what I understand of my reading about them), hope was all they have.

I know Arthur but isn't this kinda cruel offering people hope just to win an election knowing that you can't deliver and if Trump knew (it is possible that he didn't) in advance this is just trickery.

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Margo

Cruel hope is better than Chump change;)

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ojo_sigo

I think they are more or less the same Margo babe,

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mudhouse

I don't know if I'm ready to throw the gauntlet down, pick it up, or get rid of it, but I am hoping we've run the gauntlet on the border wall issue.


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arthurpym

Ojo, I'm not sure he doesn't think he can deliver, or that he can do anything, given how he feels about himself and his abilities. He also speaks a good line...he truly given some people hope who have been forgotten. That's why they voted for him, IMHO. That also kind of answers the OP's question about perceptions; a lot of people perceived that the government was this big, bloated thing that only cared about enriching it's own place in the world. Trump talked to that and gave them something to believe in.

I don't agree with it, and I don't think it will be successful; but I understand it.

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whynottryit

That also kind of answers the OP's question about perceptions; a lot of people perceived that the government was this big, bloated thing that only cared about enriching it's own place in the world. Trump talked to that and gave them something to believe in.

I don't agree with it, and I don't think it will be successful; but I understand it.

Yes, arthur, it kind of does answer the question and I don't agree with or think it will be successful. I think that Trump is a living lie and he's lied so much to himself he believes his own lies. He lives in the past, a past that has never existed for America. He lives in a mindset that gives him the powers of a king and the worship of a cult leader. His insecurities make it impossible for him to put the legacy of Obama and the specter of HRC in the campaign behind him. The current situation with Roy Moore in Alabama more than supports an amoral character assessment regardless of his previous indiscretions. But yes, I suppose he did play to the hopelessness for his supporters though I do know that many of his supporters were not in hopeless situations so I think that's most likely only part of the story. Since I'm not Paul Harvey, I probably will never know the rest of the story either.

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Ann

Hey, what's up with "Margo babe"? I think that's an unusual way to address another participant.

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Ann

Mayflowers, I never said morals don't have any bearing on the role of president. I never said morals don't matter. I did say I don't agree that Trump is immoral, and I did say I don't need Trump to be my moral compass.

Yes!

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ojo_sigo

I was walking in a local suburban street this afternoon when a car pulled up, and a man hopped out went to a door, and within seconds he was in full flow. The lady who answered the door was in her sixties or so and was pleased to see this visitor although she didn't invite him in. He was an insurance salesman or something, but he was putting in an Oscar-worthy performance, the lady went back inside and came back with her purse smiling from ear to ear.

Flimflam at this level must happen all the time but substitute the old lady reaching for her purse for a presidential election, and we have moved up a league or two,

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ojo_sigo

Ease up Ann, Margo likes a laugh, somebody earlier called he babe so its to do with that.

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mudhouse

whynottryit: I had seen him in action on the Apprentice and wasn't impressed with his management style either but figured that was show business and didn't really count. However, I did an enormous amount of research into his business dealings, his modeling agency, Trump U, his charitable donations, lawsuits against him. By research, I mean finding as close to the original documents as possible. I went to court websites and found the original complaints and documents filed with any of the suits available.

...So I did not reject him lightly even though my gut was screaming "Nooooo!" Because of HRC's long history in the spotlight, I already knew enough to know that I didn't want her if there was any chance of a better choice but there wasn't.

Thanks for posting all of this, whynot. It’s very helpful to me in understanding how you arrived at your decision, and how your perception of Trump differs from mine. I didn’t do anything approaching that level of independent research, and I definitely didn’t try to find original documents and complaints; I wouldn’t even know how to do that. To be honest it never occurred to me to research his doctor.

I respect you, a lot, for taking such a careful approach to your decision.

I also appreciated this comment because it brought up the reality of the binary choice between Trump and Hillary. From my perspective, I couldn’t support a continuation of the general direction and policies put in place during Obama’s presidency; voting for Hillary wasn’t a consideration for me.

I’ve read comments here in HT and on the web about Trump’s questionable business dealings before he was elected (including the Trump University lawsuit.) Some information came from individuals and sites I thought were reliable; others were more uncertain. I think it’s harder than ever before to search out information and know how much it slants towards or away from the truth, but I try.

I didn’t discount the negative commentary. In the end, I made the decision to vote for Trump because my questions and concerns about him were outweighed by my feeling that he offered a chance for the change in direction I hoped for. No guarantee, but with Hillary I felt certain the same direction would continue, and the policies that concerned me would become so firmly entrenched I feared for the well-being of the country.

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mudhouse

Whynot, I'm not leaving the thread, but so far my take away is that both of us made our decisions based on what we thought was best for the country. Neither of us are ignorant, careless, or shallow people, and making our best choice is all we can do.

You’ve helped me understand that you don’t have any confidence that his intentions for the country are honorable, and I understand better than I did before how that deeply felt lack of trust makes it virtually impossible to view any of his actions in anything but a negative way (I think that's right?)

I copied this from our exchange in the previous thread:
mudhouse: Trump's behavior (mostly) doesn’t bother me, it doesn’t embarrass me, and I don’t believe he’s unstable. I’m not turning a willful blind eye to unstable or embarrassing behavior, because I honestly don’t see it as unstable or embarrassing behavior.

I understand completely that you do, and I defend your right to have a perception that’s totally different from mine. I’m not saying you’re wrong, at all. I’m just saying, it may help with some of your angst about Trump if you can consider shifting your search for understanding (which I respect) from your current question:

Why are Trump’s supporters so willing to turn a blind eye to his unacceptable behavior?
to
Why do Trump’s supporters have such a different perception of his behavior than I do?

Is it okay to ask, if the question in your mind is still the first question, or if you've moved at all towards the second one? Do you think I have a different perception, or do you think I'm just turning a blind eye?

(No wrong answers...)

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Annie Deighnaugh

cait:
Nowhere did I write, "it's ok" like some kind of stamp of approval.

No, you didn't use the exact words, "it's ok", but you did say, "I kinda like brash...." and "NYers have the NY thing going on. It's ingrained. It's a part of who they are." and "People are making too big a deal about Trump. "

So if that's not a stamp of approval, it's certainly making excuses for his behavior...in other words, he's ok by you.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Are you saying that you don't believe Trump wants to do any good for the country? What do you think MAGA is, then?

I think MAGA is a tagline. I think trump wants to do what's best for trump and his family first, including acquiescing to whatever hold putin has on him, then doing what's easiest to pay off his rich friends like Icahn. I don't believe he can do any good for the country as I don't think he understands or invests any time to understand what that is.

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mudhouse

ojo I keep meaning to thank you for the link to the Mother Jones article and the video, I have both up for later viewing, just haven't gotten there yet.

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mudhouse

Annie I keep wanting to ask this, but I know I'm supposed to avoid "whataboutism". But what the heck. Wasn't "Hope and Change" a tagline, too?

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whynottryit

I’ve read comments here in HT and on the web about Trump’s questionable business dealings before he was elected (including the Trump University lawsuit.) Some information came from individuals and sites I thought were reliable; others were more uncertain. I think it’s harder than ever before to search out information and know how much it slants towards or away from the truth, but I try.

Mudhouse, those reasons are precisely why I felt I had to go into such depth of research. I found things that weren't being discussed in the media. His modeling agency for instance had a lot of models that were brought in on a work visa but stayed long after those visas expired just as he was blaming others for doing. These models were quite young as well. It has been a year since I did that research and I didn't intend to publish it so I didn't save it to provide the links but I did try to get news agencies interested in it.

I was a paralegal for 11 years. I have a very curious mind and when things don't add up to me, I have to find out why. I guess that's a bit of an obsession but I actually enjoy research. The doctor's letter contained the dad's name and that puzzled me. When I saw the specialty, I was even more confused but never found an answer. The doctor that wrote the letter specializes in gastroenterology which I found strange that he wasn't an general internist but the letter itself was ridiculous. After hearing the doctor's explanation, I understood that it was not something he took seriously.

When people have secrets, it's been my experience that they are very defensive and, when I was working, it was my job to find them. I looked for inconsistencies and red flags. I read myriad medical reports and know what they look like. I know how to find and read court documents. So this was an extension of my pre-retirement work for me. I will say that I found motherjones.com to be a very accurate source of starting information. The name of the magazine initially was off-putting but the thoroughness of their research impressed me.

Everything that I uncovered and confirmed allowed me to put his comments in a context with his previous actions that helped me to determine what was real and what wasn't about the "@realdonaldtrump". (His twitter handle)

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arthurpym

No guarantee, but with Hillary I felt certain the same direction would
continue, and the policies that concerned me would become so firmly
entrenched I feared for the well-being of the country.

You are probably correct. And that's exactly how people feel with Trump being elected and why they're so concerned. There are now basically two groups in America who fundamentally see the world differently.

I believe I posted a link and some text in an earlier thread about how differently the two sides see what's going on in the world. The gist was; two people are approaching a castle, one is from the right, one from the left. As they approach the castle, we realize that everything one person knows about castles is from Game of Thrones, what the other knows about castles they learned from Monty Python. They both know a different world.

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arthurpym

Wasn't "Hope and Change" a tagline, too?

True, Mudhouse, but many of us got that. We got hope, and we got change, and felt that the last eight years WAS making America great. See my point (from my post right above)?

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lilacinjust

mudhouse

Annie I keep wanting to ask this, but I know I'm supposed to avoid "whataboutism". But what the heck. Wasn't "Hope and Change" a tagline, too?

^^^^

You should never avoid relevance, even when that offends people who wish to shut your side of the conversation down with mumbo jumbo claims like "whataboutism" neo-jargon ;-)

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whynottryit

Why are Trump’s supporters so willing to turn a blind eye to his unacceptable behavior?
to
Why do Trump’s supporters have such a different perception of his behavior than I do?

Is it okay to ask, if the question in your mind is still the first question, or if you've moved at all towards the second one? Do you think I have a different perception, or do you think I'm just turning a blind eye?

Sure, it's okay to ask. I had already moved to the second question when I started the thread. What I think, though, is that your perception was based on, perhaps, incomplete information. However, given the last year's events, well, since Jan 20 anyway, I am at a loss to explain the amount of continued support he still holds. With Puerto Rico, Charlottesville, Las Vegas, the basketball players, the NFL, Roy Moore, N. Korea, Dutertes, to name a few, I don't understand his continued support, not just support but fervent support. I understand not wanting impeachment. I really would rather the country not have to endure that again as well. But I don't understand the defense of all things regardless of how bad they are that he does. I have never defended a political figure that strongly. I don't even defend religious leaders that passionately. Is it a matter of not seeing his faults? Or not wanting to admit his faults to liberals? Or do you agree with him on all things?

Also, as an side note, there was a mention of his morality up the thread. I tried to find a definition of immoral behavior and found that's it's basically a sliding scale and there is no concrete measure. I found that interesting and a bit surprising but it does explain why none of us can agree whether a particular behavior is moral or not.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Yes, I remember how people swore that liberals worshipped Obama, that he could do no wrong (despite the people popping up with criticism).

Yet, there are Trump supporters today who appear to act that very way.

Notice I said 'appear' to reflect that it is my perception.

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Margo

Yet, there are Trump supporters today who appear to act that very way.


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Ziemia(6a)

Two thoughts keep popping up from this thread. Both from mudhouse but others have said it here or elsewhere.

  1. Don't take Trump at his word: The first one means I take his message seriously, but my understanding of the message doesn't hang on the literal interpretation of every single word. In other words, if there is any one part of the message that can't always be literally correct, I don't jump to the conclusion that the whole message is false. I still take the intent of the message seriously. - and that's a good thing for Trump supporters. ...=== I Do Not Understand. How am I supposed to know the part to take seriously? Is there a secret code? Is this part of not being politically correct? - how will I know what he really means - Do I have to wait until his team explains it to me?
  2. Trump clobbered a fear of political correctness in my heart that I didn't even know I was harboring. What are the things you all were afraid to say that Trump has freed you to say? If it's not explainable, if it's just something that Trump supporters get - how can someone who doesn't get Trump EVER understand?

==============

I wrote this after reading many many posts and I suspect that the conversation has moved way on beyond where I had last loaded the page.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Wasn't "Hope and Change" a tagline, too?

Of course, and anyone who decides who to vote for for president based on a tagline is a fool.

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whynottryit

meanom, Do I have to wait until his team explains it to me?

The problem I've found with that is that he says one thing, they explain it, he says something different and no one can say which one is the right one. So, waiting for his team, yeah, not really working.

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mudhouse

True, Mudhouse, but many of us got that. We got hope, and we got change,
and felt that the last eight years WAS making America great. See my
point (from my post right above)?

Darn it Arthur, if you keep presenting consistent logic, you're going to put this forum out of business.

Sorry I missed your link and comment about the castle in another thread (I do a bad job of getting to all the threads.) I've appreciated your contributions to this one.

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mudhouse

OK Annie I understand it better. MAGA is a tagline, but to you, it's only that; not a real indication of Trump's sincere intent or abilities. On the other hand, Hope and Change is an accurate reflection of what was promised and received. (Reverse above for my team.)

I don't agree with your view of Trump as greedy, corrupt, and nefarious, but I still support your right to believe it.

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Kathy

Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. How can Trump supporters ignore his past history? I don’t understand that.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

At this point I don't particularly support 45 being impeached barring revelations that he committed treason, collusion or obstructed. To start impeachment proceedings without charges filed against him for doing one/two/all of those things and supported by evidence will only turn him into a martyr of the political war.


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lilacinjust


Kathy

Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior.

^^^^^

Someone's been watching "Dr." Phil.

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arthurpym

Darn it Arthur, if you keep presenting consistent logic, you're going to put this forum out of business.

Well, I appreciate that. I spent a lot of time reading up on 'why' people, particularly those in coal country, voted for Trump. I read a lot of really good articles about it from people from that area, from children from that area, and from that life. For that one tiny segment of society, I 'think' I might get it. Quite frankly, having focused on inner-city problems, I simply did not get what so many others were going through in this country. I have a real, new-found view into a whole lot of people I didn't before.

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sunflower_petal(5a)


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Ann

But I don't understand the defense of all things regardless of how bad they are that he does.

I think those that support Trump just aren't seeing all these "bad" things. I think he's working hard to do what he said he'd do.

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mudhouse

meanom: Don't take Trump at his word:

mudhouse: The first one means I take his message seriously, but my understanding of the message doesn't hang on the literal interpretation of every single word. In other words, if there is any one part of the message that can't always be literally correct, I don't jump to the conclusion that the whole message is false. I still take the intent of the message seriously.

meanom: and that's a good thing for Trump supporters. ...===I Do Not Understand. How am I supposed to know the part to take seriously? Is there a secret code? Is this part of not being politically correct? - how will I know what he really means - Do I have to wait until his team explains it to me?

As grapeleaves mentioned, I’ve been posting about this for a long time. I used the border wall example in several posts above. Obviously, I’m awful at explaining this.

I’m going to owe arthurpym a royalty if I keep using his post, but it’s so much better than my writing:

arthurpym: "We, as partisans, have a tendency to look at and perceive the 'other' side, no matter what that is, as wrong. It's really that simple.

...Both sides do the exact same thing. We always focus on the message of 'our' side. We always focus on the exact words of 'their' side. Our perceptions are wrought clear by our partisanship."

At the risk of being overly blunt, maybe the difference is I’m hunting for the message in a statement from Trump, and others are hunting for untruths. Whynottryit writes above:

"I think that Trump is a living lie and he's lied so much to himself he believes his own lies."

I think whynot is sincere, and I take her at her word. From this viewpoint, there is very little that Trump can say that she’ll believe. Additionally, there is nothing I can post that will cause her to “see” a statement from Trump in a different way.

meanom: What are the things you all were afraid to say that Trump has freed you to say? If it's not explainable, if it's just something that Trump supporters get - how can someone who doesn't get Trump EVER understand?

In my post to Mayflowers above, I listed three simple examples of exchanges I’ve had since the election, talking about Trump, that I would have avoided before.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I don't have to hunt for untruths in Trump's statements; the untruths literally slap you in the face.

"Mexico will pay for the wall."

"I alone can fix it."

.

Demagogy writ large.


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mudhouse

Lest anybody here thinks I'm making this whole literally/seriously thing up just to torture my friends on HT, here's a 2016 article on CNN written by the owner of an agency, talking about it:
Dear journalists: Stop talking Trump literally

And journalists keep falling for it because they, like politicians, over-value words -- and they are now covering a politician who does not. President-elect Trump still takes the same cavalier approach to verbal description as he would in hawking a condo tower that's yet to be designed. And more than enough voters don't seem to mind.

Trump has spent a career interacting with journalists, but as the first president never to serve in the military, the cabinet, or another public office before his election to the White House, he's never been immersed in the word culture that drives political journalism.

Journalists are conditioned to believe that words are the ultimate product, to be curated, sweated, grinded and polished...

This devotion to words as product breeds a detailed process. At every newspaper in America, the beat reporter submits his or her story to a department editor, then a copy editor, then sometimes to a managing editor -- with specific words parsed and pored and debated at each stop.

Many politicians have similar processes, with each speech, letter, and even tweet reviewed and wordsmithed by teams of people whose careers are dedicated to the craft of words. These teams are made up of many who came through the exact same journalism school training as the reporters who now critique their words.

But real estate developer Donald Trump's training on words is entirely different -- and the press has yet to adapt to it.

If you read some of the comments after the article you'll find kindred spirits who are every bit as frustrated and exasperated as you are.

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mudhouse

Whynot: I had already moved to the second question when I started the thread.

Okay good.

I don't understand the defense of all things regardless of how bad they are that he does. Is it a matter of not seeing his faults? Or not wanting to admit his faults to liberals?

What Ann said. I won't go through the list you mentioned one by one, but generally, many things you see as "bad things" are not "bad things" to me. So the continued support makes sense, and we'll see what he can accomplish.

You: "Why don't you hate the monster?" Me: "What monster?"

Or do you agree with him on all things?

Of course not.

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elvis

Kathy

Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. How can Trump supporters ignore his past history? I don’t understand that.

You might start with an understanding of the definition of the word "history". Do you believe that there are different forms of "history", i.e., future history and past history?

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Sorry, mudhouse, words do matter and people who, like Trump, constantly tell lies are not trustworthy. Period. I would never buy or believe anything from someone who operates like him because, 100% guarantee, I would be cheated. His businesses have been built on conning people into buying the goods, some shoddy, he sells. Some may think this is admirable (crowing about how "smart" a businessman he is), but I just find it disgusting. I have certainly run into other people like Trump during my life and made it a point to avoid them, like the plague. I like people who deal honestly.

If you can't reasonably believe what someone actually says, how does anything work, at all?

MAGA is fine if one wants to return to the era it refers to -- I don't. America wasn't great then, for most of us -- just for a select few. "Hope and change" at least expressed a wish to turn the page and get away from that.

Finally, I never hear concern from Trump supporters about his dismantling of the EPA and other agencies and policies protecting the environment and his manifest disdain for science and scientists. These are, of course, issues of utmost importance to me. Do Trump supporters not care about science and the environment, or do they simply take them for granted? (They shouldn't.)

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Rina

Elvis, no, please don't do snarky like that, it isn't useful. You know as well as I do -- and I know very well indeed -- that "past history" is perfectly acceptable in informal English. This is a complex language we are using.

Good to see the issue of the environment being raised. In the long run that may be the most important of all for the world's future.

By the way, sorry if anyone took offence at my calling Margo "babe" -- I used it as I do with my friends. I've known her for quite a long time and had excellent fun at her online parties, and enjoyed her wit and offbeat attitude to life.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

mudhouse, a gaggle is simply a noisy group of people. I was thinking of his followers at his gatherings and their vocal chanting, etc. Probably not "prestigious", but maybe not so awful a term as you imagined?

You admit you discount some of the things trump says as "It's not practical, it's not possible, it makes no sense." But when you change what he actually says with his words, into something that you think makes sense to you, you are reinterpreting what trump says. That is the dictionary definition (reinterpret: interpret (something) in a new or different way).

Interpreting what trump says/tweets verbatim is accepting what he says is what he meant to say. But you reinterpret what he says into what you think/assume he really meant/intends with nothing to base your interpretations on other than what he has actually said makes no sense, so his words must actually mean something else. Our quotes are accurate; your reinterpretation is speculation.

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Margo

Rina

By the way, sorry if anyone took offence at my calling Margo "babe" -- I used it as I do with my friends. I've known her for quite a long time and had excellent fun at her online parties, and enjoyed her wit and offbeat attitude to life.

Rina, I did not take offence, but I did raise an eyebrow, lol. I think Ann did too because we are used to the refined polite Rina that everyone thinks kind of. Hearing you say "babe", just sounded so out of character from how we read Rina on line;) Glad to hear you consider me a friend as well as enjoy my offbeat attitude;)


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chloe203

So , 279 responses and what we've learned is that that trumps isn't saying what we hear him say.

Okay

I just looked in the mirror and what I saw was an eighteen year old!


ETA And I didn't hear him endorse a pedophile yesterday because the rich need the tax cut.

He really said, I implore you not to vote for a pedophile, a tax cut for the rich is not that important.

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chase_gw

What I learned is that not only do some Trump supporters not care what he says or how he acts act but they actually think it is OK and are supportive of it.

I thought I would see some ..." I support his policies but find bis behavior objectionable. Not so....his behavior is acceptable to them.

Which leads me to one conclusion. The reason we see Trump so differently is because we have very different ideas about right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate , what is acceptable behaviour from a world leader and what is not.

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cait1

@ ojo

isn't this kinda cruel offering people hope just to win an election knowing that you can't deliver

BO's campaign slogan was hope and the majority HTers had no problem with it AND the only thing he delivered was an awful, unaffordable health care act snd a polarized country. IMO, the guy was hopeless.

* * *

@ Annie

No, you didn't use the exact words, "it's ok", but you did say, "I kinda
like brash...." and "NYers have the NY thing going on. It's ingrained.
It's a part of who they are." and "People are making too big a deal
about Trump. "

None of that denotes "it's ok" in the way you intend it to mean. That I see Trump's New Yorkness just gives me a different perspective on the guy. As for people making too big a deal about Trump, you only have to look at how many threads are about him on HT to know that's true. Are those who start OPs on Trump giving him their 'stamp of approval'? You're confusing my indifference towards his demeanor with approval. I neither approve or disapprove and won't judge. You know, tolerance, that quality leftist always claim they possess but really don't.

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whynottryit

Mudhouse: Or do you agree with him on all things?

Of course not.

Would you tell me some of the things that you don't agree with him about? I have not seen a non-politician/celebrity disagree with him on anything so I would like to know what it is for you. If you don't mind.

ETA: except his supporters of course. But I'm sure you understood that. Just wanted to clarify before someone started parsing that ill-written statement.

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dandyfopp

grapeleaves

So , 279 responses and what we've learned is that that trumps isn't saying what we hear him say.

Okay

I just looked in the mirror and what I saw was an eighteen year old!

ETA And I didn't hear him endorse a pedophile yesterday because the rich need the tax cut.

He really said, I implore you not to vote for a pedophile, a tax cut for the rich is not that important.


Right. Donnie says something, and his fans hear what they want to hear, re translating or attempting to explain away what comes out of his mouth.

They are the filter.





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Margo

Which leads me to one conclusion. The reason we see Trump so differently is because we have very different ideas about right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate , what is acceptable behaviour from a world leader and what is not.

Kinda like this chase. Some people like light counter tops and light to medium wood flooring as they do not show the dirt. Others like myself like the materials that show the dirt so that we can see it and deal with it. The dirt is there either way, just depends how you look at it;) Think about it and it will make sense, lol, even though you will tell me how nonsensical I am.



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whynottryit

They are the filter.

And therein lies my problem. With so many different filters, how are we supposed to understand what is going on? Is that why there is such an adoration of him, because they made an enormous leap of faith and can't handle being disappointed? I don't know. I know he loves the adulation. You can see it in his performances whether on tv or in rallies. I know he doesn't like to be questioned because he reacts so quickly and so insultingly when someone does. I know that the press secretaries are often at odds with what they (I presume) have been told to say and then what he says. As for KC, I never know what she's talking about other than it's never the question she's been asked. So how can we judge on something that isn't there. And if it's that hard to find, doesn't that mean something?

Yes, I guess the only thing I've learned is that taking Trump's words and applying them to what I consider normal conversation (not political conversation, just normal day to day interactions) is not what I should be doing. Then the question is, does someone have a Trump Word Guide/Speech Guide/ Dictionary? Is there a Rosetta Stone video for it? I know, I'm being a bit (or maybe a lot) facetious but, seriously, if I can't use the norms of our nation's language to interpret his words, then what do I do to try to understand what he means?

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whynottryit

Kinda like this chase. Some people like light counter tops and light to medium wood flooring as they do not show the dirt. Others like myself like the materials that show the dirt so that we can see it and deal with it. The dirt is there either way, just depends how you look at it;) Think about it and it will make sense, lol, even though you will tell me how nonsensical I am.

Ok. I'll go with that. Which one are you?

ETA. Nevermind. I missed you saying like yourself when I read the second time and anyway...

So If you like to see the dirt, what dirt do you see with Trump?

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roxsol

Whynot, it is like Jabberwocky. One interprets it how they want.

It is a bizarre way to run a country.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Are we not to take Tillerson and McMasters seriously when they, who work with Trump, give their opinions of him?

What is the translation of their remarks?

Edited to add: How are we to assess the choices of Flynn and Manafort -- and Papadopoulos, Page, and Gordon -- in light of Trump's ability to properly screen and choose advisors?

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Margo

His language at times, whynot.

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Margo

I think someone is in an agitated state this morning.... perhaps one should light a Trudeau scented candle?

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whynottryit

Really, Margo. That's it? well, Ok.

Not sure who you mean is agitated but if me, I'm just thoroughly confused. I used to love Alice in Wonderland. All the dream sequences. I have a lot of homages to her story in my living room. Now, I feel like I fell down that hole with her and it's a nightmare and I'm trying to wake up but my eyes won't open and the same thing happens over and over again. I'm trying to make sense of it but the Red Queen keeps screaming and the card men are flying at me and the mad hatter keeps pouring the tea. I really need to get home to Dinah.

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Margo

I love Alice in Wonderland!!

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nannygoat_gw

Chase

What I learned is that not only do some Trump supporters not care what he says or how he acts act but they actually think it is OK and are supportive of it.

I thought I would see some ..." I support his policies but find bis behavior objectionable. Not so....his behavior is acceptable to them.

Which leads me to one conclusion. The reason we see Trump so differently is because we have very different ideas about right and wrong, appropriate and inappropriate , what is acceptable behaviour from a world leader and what is not.

And we have very different ideas about what's is acceptable behavior in our everyday interactions with family and others.

At one of my retirement breakfasts with former co-workers, one woman said, in reference to the Access Hollywood tapes, "don't you think that's how the majority of men talk?"

I thought to myself "that tells me all I need to know about you, your husband, and the type of people you hang out with".

So different from what my family and friends are like.

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whynottryit

So maybe I need to start another thread. An Alice thread. And we can just talk about her and Wonderland and forget all this real world stuff for a while. Sounds like a lot more fun.

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Margo

Let me know what time is tea whynot;)) EAT CAKE

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mayflowers

I thought to myself "that tells me all I need to know about you, your husband, and the type of people you hang out with".

The immaturity, pettiness, and bragging about nothing is very unusual for a man his age. I think an understanding of narcissism is very helpful in understanding trump. One aspect of narcissism is that some people initiially find them charming and charismatic. As long as you give them your adoration, they remain charming. Don't support them 100% and they will cut you down viciously. His supporters are still in that stage where they find him charming. Eventually you wake up to the fact that you've been manipulated all along. Ann and Margo in particular admire many traits of his that are not admirable. Now we see mudhouse admiring trump's ability to "say stuff" that can be perceived as rude, or ugly, or unintelligent.

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Margo

mayflowers, I guess we are just special;)

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chase_gw

"Others like myself like the materials that show the dirt so that we can see it and deal with it."

Trouble is we have very different ideas of what constitutes dirt.

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roxsol

“At one of my retirement breakfasts with former co-workers, one woman said, in reference to the Access Hollywood tapes, "don't you think that's how the majority of men talk?"

I asked my husband the same thing. He has spent a lot of time in hockey locker rooms, on golf courses and in a male dominated profession. He too, said he has never heard anyone talk like that about women.....not once.

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ann_t

"So If you like to see the dirt, what dirt do you see with Trump?"

The Oval Office is filthy thanks to the current occupant.

But apparently some just turn a blind eye to the dirt.


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leona_2008

Yes, when Exterminator Mueller gets rid of the varmints, time for a deep, deep cleaning.

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whynottryit



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whynottryit

My perception of this is that DJT is 1) focused on minutiae, 2) doesn't understand his job, 3) is a petulant child, 4) is not focused on the important issues of the country, 5) has an abnormal need to be adored, 6) is ranting about a private citizen because he was not grateful enough. To interpret this as him doing a great job for the country is not within my capability.

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mudhouse

Whynottryit: Would you tell me some of the things that you don't agree with him
about? I have not seen a non-politician/celebrity disagree with him on
anything so I would like to know what it is for you. If you don't mind.

I don't mind at all. I’m trying to think of things that deal more with Trump’s behavior than policies, thoug