If you are doing white/white then a no brainer between those two would favor Okna. Better performance, warranty, and you like the appearance of those better. Seems kind of odd to me on product comparison anyway that it would be between Okna (vinyl smaller frames and top performer) and renewal (vinyl/wood composite, subpar performance and the worst warranty of the bunch) Vytex, Softlite, Okna are the better products here in no particular order

Thanks for the quick response. The reason we considered andersen was mainly due to the name recognition. However, the price was ridiculous. I didnt realize that Andersen renewal was inferior in performance to the others. whats funny is that all the reps from the other window brands were very informative and eductated us on what all those different energy efficiency numbers mean. When we asked the renewal rep what the air leakage rating was, he kind of dismissed the question and changed the subject. Perhaps that was a red flag. He was more concerned with monthly payment plans.

i guess we just ruled out andersen.

Very well stated by WDUSA... toss that option IMO. Look at the thermal and structural ratings as a guide. The Okna 600 is a stellar window, and the Ls and vytex are very good as well. I’d recommend spending some time vetting the dealers that you are considering as well, as installation is critically important. Where are you located?

Agree with the others as well. The Okna, as well as the others have superior performance ratings on every metric over andersen including renewal.

andersen as well as pella are sold in almost every lumber yard, hardware store, and do it yourself home improvement centers. They spend a lot on marketing and advertising and thats why they have brand recognition. They are just average windows to be quite honest. Be sure to stay away from both andersen and pella vinyl, they are garbage in my opinion.

The vinyl brands you saw are very high end and in a different league. Although im not familiar with thomson creek windows.

the okna 600 does have a more narrow frame than the soft lite which does give you more glass. If you want triple pane, the okna 600 gets a .18 ufactor with argon gas.

that said, both the soft lite and vytex are solid performers.

Im in montgomery county md.

I'd go with Soft-Lite.

Okna is the better product over Andersen or Thompson Creek. Their air leakage rates are superb. And the U-value is also top notch.

Rhe Soft Lite and Okna are very close in quality and performance, the quality of the install and reputation of dealer would be the tipping factor for me.

Marta, after a quick reread on the products that you are considering, it sounds like you may be somewhere around DC or MD? (Thompson Creek reference mainly).... Have you checked into Windows on Washington? If they serve your area, you’d be well served to talk to them. As has been alluded to here a few times, the installation and company standing behind it are a major part of this equation, and they would be a homerun in that regard.

Great window Francine, nice choice. That price is VERY aggressive for that window. A steal if it’s installed by a reputable, quality company.... the Sliding door is excellent as well, although I’m not sure what price you should expect given the window pricing.

RB Andersen. Best product on the market. Labor warranty as well.

Best product in what objective/measurable way?

the Okna 600, the soft lite imperial, and vytex potomac outperform the andersen renewal in just about every metric.

much better uFactor, better structural rating, and much better air leakage ratings.

What is the structural and air leakage numbers on the Renewal?

when you consider price the Renewal is not a very good decision.

I'm also very interested to know what makes the Renewal window the "best product on the market" according to @Tom.

Tom Young seems to know everything. I wonder if Tom Young knows where my neighbors dog is.

Funny how a thread this old has all the contractors jumping out of the woodwork based on the opinion of a homeowner. Although I hadn’t seen the date the original post was on I did buy the Renewal units after interviewing many contractors so I thought I’d offer my opinion. (If I had I wouldn’t have commented) I am not a scientist. AAMA expert or engineer but I’d bet none of us are. After my due diligence I found that I just simply trusted Andersen with my own home. Many contractors didn’t follow up, call back, send proposals quickly and I started to get the feeling they’d rather be doing larger remodeling jobs then my 27 windows in NYC. I guess I just trusted Andersen to do the work as planned, quickly, professionally and stand behind it. And with them I also had the ability to finance the entire job. I also recommend to homeowners without tons of experience like me take my word call the Department Of Consumers Affairs, look up the BBB record on anybody you would consider for ANY home improvement job. Believe me I learned the hard way. This is the second set of windows I have bought. The first one had a lifetime warranty but it didn’t mean much after 10 yrs. And same goes with furniture, plumbing, electrical and so on. Size matters.For a hassle free experience the larger companies come with samples and have a program that’s seamless. Again my opinion but one reason would be that I trust a company with thousands of employees and 100 yr reputation vs a small company even with the best of intentions.

Thanks for the clarification Tom. Typically, when someone digs up an old thread to state something so boldly (best product on the market), it’s someone associated with the company. What you said in the second post is all very reasonable and good information to pass along to other consumers who are considering replacement windows.

The RBA window is very attractive and the right choice for some consumers. It is not, however, a top performer in any measurable category. The pros here are passionate about putting accurate information in the hands of consumers, enabling them to make the best choice for their particular application.

I am fairly certain the air leakage number of an Andersen Renewal Double Hung is a .18.

whereas the air leakage number on Okna 600 is a .02 ( much better). Same with the Soft Lite imperial LS. This is why many companies are reluctant to reveal what their air leakage numbers are and just claim they us a “ pass or fail “. it is true that a window does get a pass or fail but they always get a nunber assigned to it,. If they passed but their number isnt very good, they never tell you what it is. If its good, they brag about it.

its important to remember with Air Leakage, the lower the number, the better its is !

same with U-factor, lower the better.

I think most companies don’t care to much about air numbers, I think was pushed by Soft-Lite at first and some of the others followed suit?

Trying to find a current test report on any brand is quite difficult, at best you’ll see it listed somewhere in there website and quite often they will leave out products such as doors, and sliding windows because if there higher numbers. Air numbers are not like other performance numbers where they can vary from test to test. You will sometimes see air numbers on NFRC stickers but they do not give an exact number but merely a range.

"There are extraordinarily large manufacturers (over $1 billion like Andersen) that make some pretty awful windows."

I agree with everything in Homesealed's post, but in particular this sentence^^ as it relates to Pella. Pella much more egregious than Andersen IMO in touting its size and years in business as a selling point. That is called "resting on its laurels". Andersen has a mix of very good windows and some lower quality ones. Pella's quality is poor across the board, and poor customer service to boot, especially compared to its competitors - though try to convince the average consumer of that. Sorry, I've digressed from the OP, but that sentence struck me.

The companies that still don’t care about air numbers are companies that still don’t care about making a quality, air tight window. Looks like one of them liked your post Todd, not sure that I’d want that look if I was a window maker. Even Alside is trying to get better air numbers these days. Same goes for the reports. Every manufacturer has them, they are only reluctant to give them out if they are not flattering. The air numbers on the nfrc sticker are worthless. They typically just say <.3, which is the threshold of failinf to be certified because they leak sooo profusely at that point.

Yes, there is more homework involved. Yes, some manufacturers can try to get sneaky with these numbers or hide them, but they do that with other numbers too. U value gets twisted too and that’s the main one that people look at. Air numbers are important. I don’t think that you todf, or anyone in the industry that is honest and knows what they are talking about can say that they see no correlation between air numbers and quality.

It’s expensive to redesign a window. So the outdated designs with pocket sills, notched out sashes, sash slop are here to stay until they can afford to get new equipment. But when they do you best bet they will make attempt to make better designs.....It Takes better equipment (the tolerances must be tight to get a low infiltration rating, or you can just throw sticky fuzz pads in the corners to get a temporary low number. Until they fall over and are laying in the yard) most manufacturers especially the large ones would rather build tolerances in the window so they don’t have to keep the equipment tuned. Having worked in a factory before, it haults production, costing $$ That’s why the largest manufactures generally have mediocre windows. It’s all about pumping them out quick and efficient. The regional manufactures generally make better products imo.

Also Air numbers are the most important imo. You can have a 6 pane window with a u value of .10 but if it’s drafty what good does it do? Your gonna feel that cold air on your neck while your sitting in the couch watching tv.
I’ll take a low air rating vinyl window over a sawdust/vinyl mix window with 10year warranty and atrocious numbers all day, and ridiculous pricing all day.

NFRC stickers now show more <.3. It’s fine if you want to bash Anderson but if you you’re gonna say there numbers suck back it up with some actual data, I think current test results from a lab are best. Trying to find air numbers on some of the brands that get recommended can be very Difficult to find,they leave out window types and doors that don’t have good air numbers and they don’t have verifiable test results but do like to use soda cans and balloons. I do like some of the brands that advertise low air numbers but it not the most important imo. Mr. Direct, your factory background sounds vast and inconclusive all at the same time.

ur right on the labels Todd, just noticed that. Now it says <.1 (if the rating fits that of course). Still not exact, but it’s an improvement.

As for finding numbers, I can’t say that I’ve ever had any difficulty getting them from anyone that has good ones. They are all third party certified. Soda cans, balloons, jugs, no matter, the numbers are what they are. Most manufacturers are above board and use a double hung of comparable size for these tests. Some shady companies may try to use a casement or picture window, but it’s been awhile since I’ve seen anything like that. Yes sliders are leakier. They are also far less common, and while not as good, those ratings are typically still good compared to other manufacturers if the DH is good.

If I look at the Okna website, they show me a window with a NFRC label and expain the numbers. They list the air infiltration at <0.30. Then tell you to ask your certified dealer for the air leakage rating for desired glass package. Sliders are not always leakier, you could look at Gerkins website for example and see this. I think anyone that has searched for air numbers would agree they are not easy to find, somewhat confusing, if they do have them listed the list is often incomplete, rarely back by any type of official current test data. Then you get people responding with “ I think it’s about 0.18” or they are “ atrocious“.

Todd, not trying to insert myself into this argument, but since you mentioned Okna in particular: if you click on the:

Performance Numbers:

To see Thermal and Structural numbers for this window series please CLICK HERE to download.

It takes you here:

https://www.starmarkwindows.com/media/ckfinder/files/800_dh_2019.pdf

Yes, at the top of the page it shows nfrc labels with inexact <.30 air numbers on it, which is what nfrc labels were using. Not sure if you are implying that they should or even could misrepresent that? Secondly, if you scroll down, you will see the exact rating (.01 for the 800 DH), window type, the test used (ASTM XYZ) etc. All of their sales literature supplies the same info.

What are you suggesting is improper here Todd? They list the ratings, with as many specifics as probably needed for legal purposes, and the test report is available through their dealers. This is a cutthroat industry Todd, if a company was publishing data that was not factual, competitors would be all over that and for good reason.

Also, I'd agree with the sentiments that sliders are generally leakier. Kudos to you for finding a window where that is not the case, but I don't believe that you would argue that this is a general rule and not an exception. Generally speaking, from tightest (air) to leakiest, it will go PW, CA/AWN, DH, SL, in terms of the main operating styles.

Overall, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here Todd. If its that someone shouldn't be able to come on here and say that "this window has better ratings than that window", then 1) I'd disagree, and 2) prove them wrong if that is the case. People can say whatever they'd like, and if you have data to the contrary, it should be shared.

you don’t happen to have Current test results from the lab? Do these numbers change with a different glass packages? Why does the NFRC label show <.30 only, I Have seen other labels that show lower. I can find other windows with sliders Performing as well as the hung windows, but as we know this is difficult since done with poor performing sliders or something to hide don’t show those numbers. It makes hard to correct someone when you can’t find the data. I think it would be more responsible for the person posting the information to have it, especially when they are a professional.

@toddinmn , I certainly do have current test results for every product that I sell, and several that I don't.

To answer your question, Okna's NFRC labels show <.1 which is the lowest rating that NFRC will display, but not as low as the certified test result of any of their products. The literature/website likely has an outdated version of the sticker for demonstration purposes.

If you are frustrated because Andersen or any other manufacturer is more clandestine about their structural ratings, take that up with them. Perhaps "they don't care" about air ratings as you've stated. That's something that consumers may want to consider and draw their own conclusions as to why. I have my opinion on that.

I stated that there are windows that have sliders that are more air tight than dh's. They are far fewer in number than the reverse however. That is inarguable. Okna in particular has a nice chart on on their brochures that shows dh, sl, and ca. I can;t speak for other manufacturers, but rating is published in their sales literature.

In my opinion, when someone posts initially, there is no reason to offer a bibliography with it. If someone questions that information as accurate, then certainly sources and data are valuable tools. If I am going to challenge someone else's assertions, it would be incumbent on me to back that up, and they would then respond in kind. With that said, I have no idea where you are going with any of this Todd, there is no reason to breakdown the structure of a proper and effective debate.

Back to your original comments, I find air infiltration ratings to be a very effective tool for consumers. I believe that it is an important factor, and also that it is typically an indicator of quality. Most of the better windows recommended here have good air infiltration ratings due to a good design, quality, and tight manufacturing tolerances. It is only one number however in a group of both thermal and structural ratings that should be considered, and those should be considered and given proper weight as well.

Post em up

Here’s some Anderson numbers, unfortunately I do not have Renewals, but I would if I was going to bash them.

As you can see from Okna‘s website it might be hard for a consumer to get a grasp in this one may think the glass package would effect air numbers? If I search on the other boards we frequent you will see post from the Pro’s there claiming 0.22 for the 400 tilt wash.

Another slider that performs better than double hungs is the Okna 400. According to there website it comes in at 0.01!

Still waiting on those test resuts.