Woman says Roy Moore initiated sexual encounter when she was 14, he 32

dandyfopp

Wow.

Wonder how Alabama's values voters will handle this. :-)

source

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whynottryit

We already see that Danny hastert gets a pass when their boys statute of limitations why shouldn't Roy get a pass on the girls statute of limitations.

The girl who was 14 (Corfman) can still bring criminal charges because she was a minor and Alabama has no statute of limitations for a minor. For the other girls that were over 16, the statute would have run. Moore has greater incentive than political gain to deny the charges so I don't imagine he will step down or plead guilty anytime soon.


Statute of Limitations with regard to sexual assault.

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whynottryit

Pidge

Keep in mind that Moore was an ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY at the time he is claimed to have sexually molested a 14-year-old. He was a member of the judicial system and a man who was expected to uphold the law.

As such, he also wielded a lot of power and influence that would stop any woman (much less a 14 yr old girl) from accusing him of anything. She also knew that she had met him away from her home, gone with him somewhere that she knew she shouldn't have but was thrilling to a girl her age with hormones exploding but she got scared when he went further then she expected. She blamed herself. So why would she come forward and create additional problems for herself and her recently divorced mother?


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mayflowers

Sure, just look at how young Macron was when his teacher (and much, much
later, wife) started having sex with him. He was 15, she was 39. Talk
about liberal liberals...

You really had to dig deep for your butwhatabout, elvis, but by golly, you found something! I never knew that 39 year old teachers having sex with 15 year old students was a liberal thing, but I think we should get busy condemning Macron's wife! When are you going to get busy condemning Moore?

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whynottryit

puremichigan60(5)

For this who like Moore, I think they'll deny the allegations are legit. For those far right I think all they care about is keeping a repub in that senate seat.

PM, you still don't understand what is motivating these voters. It has nothing to do with politics or party. Moore supporters are about abortion and religion. His championship of the Ten Commandments and striking against gay marriage makes him a god in their eyes. His vows against abortion are biblically inspired. This is the center of the Bible Belt and politics takes a very long distant second in that race. If Doug Jones were to say he was against abortion, he'd win in a landslide. Even those that liked Moore's stand on the Commandments and gays would crossover, especially now, but they cannot and will not abide anyone who is a "baby-killer".

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labrea_gw

only 6 out of every 1,000 perpetrators will end up in prison because it either goes unreported never comes to trial or the state does have a statue of limitations that is hostile to people who take years to report an abuse!

Soo many here were out with lit torches over Bill Cosby DT not so much, Duggar was mixed bag, Lot of silence around Hastert, lot of carrying on around Bill & Monica!

Trumps Bowl of Cherries adultery admission interview after pleading the 5th 97 times to avoid a bigger pay out! ZIP! Marla wasn't there by accident paying for that duplex!


This isn't about adolescents this is about passes granted over very blurry lines!

If Roy Moor was gay and these had Been BOYS OMGOMG OMG every hobgoblin under the son with a cross would be out HOWLING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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deegw

Roy Moore's opponent's campaign site. I am going to make a donation.


Doug Jones for US Senate


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chase_gw

Mitt Romney sure isn't pulling any punches

"Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside,” Romney tweeted.


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whynottryit

There is no bottom for Roy Moore Republicans

By Josh Moon
Alabama Political Reporter

(I have copy/pasted the last of the article from the link above. The entire article is very much worth the read.)

Right now, you have a choice between two men. One of those men is most famous for courageously prosecuting the domestic terrorists who bombed a church and killed four girls. The other is most famous for being kicked off the Supreme Court twice for refusing to follow the law and for allegedly sexually assaulting a 14-year-old.

You’re doing Cirque du Soleil-level contortions to justify voting for the latter.

Let us know if you ever find that muddy bottom.

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whynottryit

Same paper, opposing view.

Allegations against Roy Moore similar to those against Donald Trump

By Brandon Moseley
Alabama Political Reporter

A bombshell allegation is suddenly unleashed on a populist candidate a month before the general election, women come forward with tales of misconduct, outraged media and GOP establishment types who never supported the nominee all demand that the nominee drop out of the race for the good of the party.

We all lived through this once; when an unflattering video of Donald Trump was released and the political world went into carefully orchestrated shock and outrage.

Thursday the exact same D.C. playbook was used. This time against Roy Moore. On Thursday, The Washington Post unleashed their journalistic broadside against the Moore campaign just when a new poll by Strategy Research commissioned by Raycom showed Moore easily cruising to a victory by 11 points over Doug Jones 51 to 49.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Well, Trump won so Roy Moore should be ok, right? Especially if he embraces Trump, unlike that stupid Gillespie! amirite?

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whynottryit

sunflower_petal

Well, Trump won so Roy Moore should be ok, right?

Can I interest you in some swampland in Arizona?

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jodik_gw

This is what happens when people refuse to educate with important and factual information... thanks for the stats, Joe.

~~~

And how can one even begin to justify what this bottom feeder did? There is no way to pretzel this one. He should be thrown aside, never mind stepping aside!

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labrea_gw

You have an idiot on Fox about 15 minutes ago report that sex abuse & harassment is actually very few & fare between!

Fox News legal analyst Mercedes Colwin said during a panel discussion on "Hannity" on Thursday that the actual number of women who experience sexual harassment and assault are "very few and far between!

Disgraceful bit of misrepresentation!

FBI stats for 2015 showed an increase in rape which

The revised UCR definition of rape is “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”


"Crime reports Rape is the most under-reported crime; 63% of sexual assaults are not reported to police (o). Only 12% of child sexual abuse is reported to the authorities (g). y The prevalence of false reporting is between 2% and 10%. For example, a study of eight U.S. communities, which included 2,059 cases of sexual assault, found a 7.1% rate of false reports (k). A study of 136 sexual assault cases in Boston found a 5.9% rate of false reports (j). Researchers studied 812 reports of sexual assault from 2000-03 and found a 2.1% rate of false reports "



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whynottryit

Liberal Arts

Comedy

Josh Radnor & Elizabeth Olsen in a comic coming-of-age story about an unlikely romance between a jaded 35-year-old college counselor & a precocious 19-year-old student.

Just ran across this while scrolling through Hulu and thought how ironic it is right now. Yeah, I realize 19 is legal age but still.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

I do believe it is class playing into this too. The poor is judged low because she was not worth anymore than what she got. It was the same attitude with Sandusky at Penn State. The Coach, Campus executives knew those boys were being abused and turned their head because they were poor.

These people are to stupid to realize they are looking down on them as dirt. They can even use their children and make them believe it is okay.

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chijim

mayflowers

Sure, just look at how young Macron was when his teacher (and much, much
later, wife) started having sex with him. He was 15, she was 39. Talk
about liberal liberals...

You really had to dig deep for your butwhatabout, elvis, but by
golly, you found something! I never knew that 39 year old teachers
having sex with 15 year old students was a liberal thing, but I think we
should get busy condemning Macron's wife! When are you going to get
busy condemning Moore

*************************************************************

Elvis, using Pres Macron as an example is attacking the victim

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goibniu

This is actually the same tactic that the Democrats used to "win" the gubernatorial election in Louisiana a couple of years ago. The Democrats kept bringing up the fact that the Republican Vitter seemingly visited prostitutes years earlier, and putting up all kinds of "Republicans for Edwards" (the Democrat) signs, to push conservatives away from voting. Of course, once the Democrat won, taxes skyrocketed, the economy plummeted, the Republican majority legislative body became paralyzed, etc. Why should a state (or city, country...) be governed or represented by someone who doesn't represent the majority merely due to dirty tricks? The citizens of Alabama don't want Doug Jones. Elections should be about issues instead of being a character assassination competition, which is also what happened in the presidential election.

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ann_t

So the good righteous citizens of Alabama would vote for a pedophile just because a pedophile would be better than a democrat?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Roy Moore is already a horrible character. Just look at his history even without this.

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mrskjun(9)

The GOP has withdrawn all financial support of Moore.

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ann_t

Well that is a start.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I doubt they'd do that if it was just character assassination.

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CindyMac(8b)

Vitter's use of prostitutes is well-documented. He admitted as much.

Edwards' inherited the disaster Bobby Jindal created. He didn't care about Louisiana any more than Trump cares about America.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-louisiana-budget-politics-insight/after-jindal-louisiana-reels-from-corporate-tax-giveaways-idUSKCN0WA2OG

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/04/the-debilitating-economic-disaster-louisianas-governor-left-behind/?utm_term=.be9478d341db

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Olychick

"Why should a state (or city, country...) be governed or represented by someone who doesn't represent the majority merely due to dirty tricks?"

Ummm, and that's how we got this pos for a president.

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mrskjun(9)

Cindy...how many republican governors has Louisiana had in the past 100 years? And when is the last time that Louisiana was anything but an economic disaster?

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mrskjun(9)

This must be the high road. The same people who voted for a rapist, a sexual abuser, and a womanizer, who would also vote for the woman who trashed the women who accused him. You would vote for a man who would leave a young girl in a car to drown. You would vote for a man who used the n word. Yet you are downright giddy in your denouncement of the other side of the aisle. Glass houses eh?

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goibniu

Olychick, that's my point. If Comey hadn't swung the election towards Trump, it would have been the Democrats swinging the election with all their tapes and dossiers about Trump, and we'd have similar levels of unhappiness with Clinton, just minus all the rioting and attacking senators and so on. Elections are supposed to be about actual ideas and issues. If the other side hijacks the election with some scandal their investigators found, then we get stuck with, at best, someone who doesn't represent the majority, and at worst, an actual criminal. If Moore is a proven child molester, it should be Mo Brooks vs. Doug Jones.


CindyMac, agreed about the prostitutes. I'm not reading your leftist sources, however the Louisiana economy was not good but much better under Jindal. Blaming the failure of Edwards on Jindal is like blaming the failure of Obama on Bush. It's another excuse. Edwards is actually trying to sue the oil and gas industry, one of the best sources of jobs in the state. In a recession, he's constantly pushed for tax increases rather than spending cuts.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"Yet you are downright giddy in your denouncement of the other side of the aisle."

Have you looked in the mirror, mrskjun?

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CindyMac(8b)

The same people who voted for a rapist, a sexual abuser, and a
womanize
r ... that would be Trump...

... would also vote for the woman who trashed the women who
accused him

Who is that?


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sunflower_petal(5a)

Edwards has a 53% approval rating in Louisiana. Tied for 22nd place in the nation out of 50 governors.

"In a recession, he's constantly pushed for tax increases rather than spending cuts."

Is there anything left to cut? From what I read, Jindal cut taxes to the bone and beyond. There is nothing left to do but bring them back up.

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momj47(7A)

Except no one knew about Mr. Clinton's bad behavior when he ran for President.

Not like your President Trump who is an admitted serial sexual predator. With the video to prove it. Yet you support him, don't you, kjun?

How do you explain that to yourself, every day, kjun?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The Arkansas Project -- the mother-nurturer of the vast right-wing conspiracy against the Clintons.

The Hunting of the President: A 10-Year Campaign to Destroy Bill and Hillary Clinton - - https://www.texasobserver.org/777-the-arkansas-project-unmasked/

.

My disagreements with both Clintons is over policies, not the fevered accusations of a lesbian murderer, pedofilia, rape, and endless witch hunts.

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CindyMac(8b)

Goibniu, I don't know what hat you're pulling your fake news out of it.

Edwards isn't a failure. He's trying to clean up the mess Jindal created. The same as Obama cleaning up Bush's mess.

The oil & gas industry has been in a nosedive for the past few years. 16,000 - 20,000 jobs have been lost. Things may be turning around, but it'll be a slow process. My husband was laid off in 2016 after nearly 40 years in the industry. He enjoyed a year of retirement before being enticed to go back to work joining another company.


https://www.businessreport.com/article/report-gulf-coast-oil-gas-thrive-coming-decade



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azmom

"The Democrats kept bringing up the fact that the Republican Vitter seemingly visited prostitutes years earlier, and putting up all kinds of "Republicans for Edwards" (the Democrat) signs, to push conservatives away from voting.

Oh, We did not know conservatives are such a group of snowflakes that they could be pushed away from voting by signs addressing their candidates' mis-conducts and wrong doings.....Than you for the tips. LOL!

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jillinnj

The same people who voted for a rapist, a sexual abuser, and a womanizer...

You are really unbelievable.

You cannot wait to be given the opportunity to vote for the admitted sexual predator currently in the White House. And you have the nerve to say this?

I really do not understand how you sleep at night.

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CindyMac(8b)



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dandyfopp

If Donnie told Moore to step aside it would be hilarious to watch Cult45 do a collective 180.

You know they would.

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chase_gw
  • Get over it. ........any thought that America holds the moral high ground is long gone. The standard now is so low.
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mrskjun(9)

If you can keep the dust down jill, I can sleep very well.

He shouldn't need Trump to tell him to step down dandy, he should have stepped down yesterday.

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Ann

I think this situation with Moore is terrible. It's simply too weird it has come up right now, so late that ballots can't even be reprinted. If he's guilty, I don't want him to run or win. If he's not guilty, this smear campaign is despicable.

It sounds as if the governor can postpone the election. I think that postponement should happen. It's not fair to the citizens of Alabama to vote in the midst of this. I think Moore deserves the opportunity to defend the accusations, if he's innocent. If he's guilty, the citizens deserve 2 qualified candidates and a fair election.

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CindyMac(8b)

It's simply too weird it has come up right now


Have you been living under a rock? The list grows every day.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/harvey-weinstein-scandal/weinstein-here-s-growing-list-men-accused-sexual-misconduct-n816546

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goibniu

No need for me to hijack the thread with Louisiana's problems by rebutting the pro-Edwards camp. As far as Moore, yes, Democrats would love for him to remove himself from the election so that Democrats can get a free senate seat by subverting democracy. That was the entire point of the hit piece. The people of Alabama don't actually want a Democrat as a senator though. Imagine if the tables were turned and this happened in California or some other leftist wonderland? Should California get a Republican senator for 6 years simply because the Democrat rightly destined to win was suddenly accused of crimes that allegedly happened 40 years ago?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

If the crimes were true. Or perhaps Ann would offer that the election be postponed to give the Democrat a chance.

You're being too partisan here, goibniu. "rightly destined to win"? Don't the people rightly want to know if someone really has, ahem, character flaws? Should all the women have kept silent since they've been silent this long? You seem to only be interested in the timing of this.

By the way, I don't want Moore to remove himself. Go ahead and finish the election. If the Alabama voters really want him, let them elect him.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Two GOP Senators have withdrawn their endorsement of Moore. Do you really think they'd do that if they felt he was innocent?

Senator Mike Lee withdraws endorsement of Roy Moore. "Having read the detailed description of the incidents, as well as the response from Judge Moore and his campaign," Lee says, "I can no longer endorse his candidacy for the US Senate."

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Interesting quotes from people who support him:

The woman who doesn't care about other women: If the allegations are true, "I think that would just be between him and his good Lord," she added. "Even if they prove to be true, I still would support Roy Moore because I feel as if that happened in the past."

The man who has to hedge his bet: "It's a pretty convenient time for this to come out, and it has not changed my opinion and won't, unless true," he added.

The passage of time heals all: "Whatever he did 40 years ago is irrelevant to the person he is now," Word said.

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goibniu

Alabama is redder than Texas. The majority of the people of Alabama do not believe in the ideas of the Democrats, so why should they spend 6 years being represented by one?

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ann_t

The woman probably dated an older man at 14. The man probably dated a 14 year old so neither southern republican sees anything wrong with what old Roy is accused of.

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Ann

You seem to only be interested in the timing of this.

The timing of this is more than pertinent. Moore has been in public office in Alabama for something like 30 years and these allegations come out now, after 38 years. This is absolutely an attempt to subvert democracy, even if Moore is guilty. If he is guilty and we would have known that 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, or 6 months ago - he would not be the candidate right now. Regardless of his guilt or innocence, this is a blatant attempt to subvert democracy and that simply can't be allowed.

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Ann

Sunflower, of course you don't want him to remove himself. I imagine the same is true of nearly every Democrat.

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ann_t

Who are you to decide when another woman shares something that happened to her? You don't get to decide the timing. Seems to me you are a Roy Moore supporter regardless of whether he is a child molester.

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Ann

Everything about this situation is sleazy. If Moore did it, it's sleazy. If the media hunted down the accuser and the story on purpose at this important time, it's sleazy. If the woman decided to come forward right at this particular time to specifically harm Moore politically, it's sleazy. If someone convinced her to come forward at this exact time, it's sleazy. If he harmed her 38 years ago, that can and should be addressed in whatever legal way available after such a long time span, but what is going on here is a true attempt to subvert democracy and that aspect of this situation now deserves as much attention as the underlying situation. Things like this or the DNC irregularities recently exposed should not and cannot happen in the United States of America.

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goibniu

Let's just assume Roy Moore is as guilty as Amazon claims. That's still better than a Democrat who will molest America itself. If it's JFK vs. Nixon in 1960, then fine, they're both qualified Americans who differ a little on spending priorities. The Democratic Party's extreme shift to the left on most issues over the past 20 years makes them unfit for office, which is why they are now confined to the coasts and big cities, and have to resort to stealing elections like they're trying to do in Alabama.

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Joaniepoanie

“what is going on here is a true attempt to subvert democracy and that aspect of this situation now deserves as much attention as the underlying situation. Things like this or the DNC irregularities recently exposed should not and cannot happen in the United States of America.”


Neither can Russia interfering in the election and conspiracy within the Trump camp.....funny you didnt mention that little nugget but of course didnt fail to mention the DNC. Smh.

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cait1

The GOP has withdrawn all financial support of Moore.

Of course it did... Moore wasn't its choice. The GOP is as dirty as the DNC. NEVER NEVER NEVER give money to the GOP - only give money to the candidate's campaign!

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Joaniepoanie

Goibniu.....stealing elections is the Republicans’ expertise.

As Chris Matthews said tonight “now we know the Republicans’ age of consent.”

Absolutely disgusting and abhorrent that anyone would think a pedophile is a better candidate than a Democrat.


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Ann

Joanie, let's wait to see if anyone colluded with the Russians and, if so, whom. When it comes to Russian involvement, that might circle right back to the DNC in a really big way. If it lands in Trump's lap, punish him. But, I agree with goibniu, stealing elections is an issue (a big one). What's going on in Alabama is super important and what happens now with this election is critical. Moore is secondary to the bigger issue of fair democracy.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The guy has admitted to ‘dates’ and hanky panky with a 14 year old who he plied with alcohol. He is also the guy whose law professor has stated is unfit and been kicked off the state Supreme Court bench TWICE. The Republican Party campaign finance com. have withdrawn their funding! Let’s not be silly here, the guy is UNFIT!

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Ann

If he's a pedophile, we need to know that and he won't be the candidate.

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cait1

Hmmm


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cait1

lawsuit to ensue?

Bezos is filthy rich. Hope Moore gets a nice slice of his pie.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Those deceitful temptress 14 year old harlots, always scheming to take a ‘good man’ (who was the adult in the situation and SHOULD KNOW BETTER, who should do the right thing instead of take advantage) down.

...according to her neighbors, 3 pastors and AN UNCLE OF THEIRS, and another pastor; plus affirmation of the way the legal system fails victims of sexual abuse/harassment/assault. Yippee, guess that settles it and we should all just pack up and head home. (SMH)

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purrmichigan(5)

cait finds confirmation in the deepest dankest parts of the internet. And is usually proven wrong.

Sounds like the FRE now gets that elections are complex with numerous moving parts. It is a very important election: for Alabama. The republicans are worried again about their party - party comes first, the state's welfare second. How familiar.

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kaych

Washington Post reporter Stephanie McCrummen, who co-wrote the hit piece on Judge Roy Moore has a history of being fake.

According to left-leaning New York Magazine, McCrummen has an extensive criminal record, committing four infractions in three different states.

The original 2011 report details how McCrummen’s criminal career began with her writing a fake check in North Carolina:

“Ms. McCrummen’s criminal history began with North Carolina Case # 1992 CR 00654, a violation of the Article 19 – False Pretenses and Cheats section of the North Carolina Criminal Code. Ms. McCrummen was convicted of a crime punishable by up to six months of imprisonment for writing a hot check that was deemed worthless.”

Is it possible a journalist with a history of writing fake checks could also write fake news?

McCrummen’s other three crimes are less serious, traffic-related offenses: two are speeding – including going 46 miles per hour in a 25 mile per hour speed zone – and one is failing to obey a highway sign.

Moreover, when McCrummen was found guilty of speeding in August 2010 in Arizona, she failed to pay the fine before returning to DC. A collection review occurred the next month, and it was not until October 23rd, 2010 of that year that she finally paid the defaulted fine.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Oh that evil duplicitous left wing media, so wicked that they can’t even not attack one of their own! They should all be shut down and their writers and reporters plus any affiliated with the left wing media in even one opinion piece should be blackballed so they never write a single word again!

Thanks for telling us this, guess we should all pack up and head home now! (SMH)

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If traffic violations disqualify a person from a professional career, there will be a whole lot of people in the unemployment line.

What's next? Parking violation scofflaws?

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chase_gw

What would those who question the timing want....to sit on the story until after the election? To not inform the voters?

It's AOK for FOX to go after Clinton relentlessly during the elections, trying to bring her down with no end of accusations but not this ? This is different?

Most reports say the piece was well writen, well sourced and that the 4 women had no communication with each other. It is also significant that they are not "anonymous" . Many prominent Republicans have called for him to step aside.

He won't, he's not ever going to do that....and he will win and the Republicans will have to deal with that.

As for the timing, evidently the research started during the primary. These things take time to research, verify and publish.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"Let's just assume Roy Moore is as guilty as Amazon claims. That's still better than a Democrat "

Well, well, well. Another one who'd rather have a 'sleazy' Republican over anything else.

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Pidge

^^^^^I agree. I hope their own children are never victims of such molestation, but if they are, will the parents still say "ho-hum, at least the molester was not a Democrat"?

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gnfr

GOP on 'allegations':

Harvey Weinstein? PIG!

Louis C.K.? SICK!

Kevin Spacey? RAPIST!

Roy Moore? IF TRUE he should do something. He has the right to respond to the accusations. He'd also make a good US Senator. Mary and Joseph would vote for him.

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whynottryit

goibniu

The citizens of Alabama don't want Doug Jones. Elections should be about issues instead of being a character assassination competition, which is also what happened in the presidential election.

I don't know where you live but guessing maybe Louisiana? But I do live in Alabama and there are a lot of the citizens here that do want Doug Jones. Yes, Alabama is a red state, but if Jones is elected, it will be because the majority of Alabamians voted for him. That is just the way elections work.

Alabama is redder than Texas. The majority of the people of Alabama do not believe in the ideas of the Democrats, so why should they spend 6 years being represented by one?

Because again, that's the way elections work. And in many minds, the recent revelations about Roy Moore just put the exclamation mark on his extremist views.

Depending on what happens within the Republican party and how they handle this situation, Jones could win. Since the party has withdrawn its monetary support, and depending on party bylaws, it is possible that Luther Strange could step back in but since he would be a write-in vote and Moore's name will still be on the ballot, I don't know what the scenario brings.

My biggest fear is that Moore will win. He's a corrupt and vile man. Even Trump did not back him in the primary. Bannon did. So now we have the worst of the worst representing the GOP. However, I have seen many FB commenters saying better a pedophile than a Pro-Choice Democrat.

I wish Doug Jones would have just said, "I think abortion is a horrible decision for a woman and her doctor that should be legal but should be extremely rare." Instead his comment made it sound like he (and maybe he does) believes in unlimited abortions. That just doesn't play well here. So the choice for Alabama republicans is abortionist v pedophile.


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momj47(7A)

Yuk

To corrupt Christianity by saying Joseph was a sexual predator, like Donald Trump and Roy Moore, is beneath contempt.

Prominent evangelist Jerry Falwell Jr. and other leading conservative Christians stand by their man, Roy Moore, child molester.

American Family Association President Tim Wildmon, who has endorsed Moore, told RNS in an email the report “does not change our support for Roy Moore.”

Liberty Counsel Chairman Mathew Staver also continued to back Moore

Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler used the biblical account of Jesus’ birth in Moore’s defense.

“(T)ake Joseph and Mary,” Zeigler told the Washington Examiner. “Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

On the other hand:

Other Christians were quick to reject Zeigler’s exegesis.

Ed Stetzer, the executive director of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College, made clear in a blog post on Christianity Today’s website: “THIS IS NOT WHAT EVANGELICALS BELIEVE.”

“Bringing Joseph and Mary into a modern-day molestation accusation, where a 32-year-old prosecutor is accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl, is simultaneously ridiculous and blasphemous. … Even those who followed ancient marriage customs, which we would not follow today, knew the difference between molesting and marriage,” Stetzer wrote.

The Rev. Amy Butler of The Riverside Church in New York City said it was “completely ludicrous to equate the sex assault of a minor with an ancient culture,” and the Rev. William Barber of Greenleaf Christian Church in Goldsboro, N.C., tweeted it was a “bizarre read” of Scripture.

“For the record: the Bible teaches that Joseph married Mary & was faithful to her thru great trials. He didn’t sexually assault her as a minor; he shielded her from shame & violence when ppl couldn’t understand a virgin birth,” Barber wrote.

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cait1

So the choice for Alabama republicans is abortionist v pedophile.

No. The allegations haven't been proven and Moore denies them.

You are also so incurious you never thought to ask how WaPo found these people. Did it go door to door saying they'd be willing to pay for smear stories against Moore? None of them new each other, never told their stories before, yet somehow, WaPo was able to pull them all outta a hat. Some magic trick.

How easy it is for some people to be deceived.

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chase_gw

If anyone is out to get Moore it is the Republican Party not Democrats.

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whynottryit

cait1

So the choice for Alabama republicans is abortionist v pedophile.

No. The allegations haven't been proven and Moore denies them.

You are also so incurious you never thought to ask how WaPo found these people. Did it go door to door saying they'd be willing to pay for smear stories against Moore? None of them new each other, never told their stories before, yet somehow, WaPo was able to pull them all outta a hat. Some magic trick.

The allegations have been corroborated. Moore has denied them. Much the same as many politicians have done, including Trump but, you're correct, there is no Access Hollywood tape of the event, though that didn't matter to Trump voters.

If you actually read the WaPo article, you will see that while they were covering Moore's campaign in Gadsden, AL, reporters were hearing rumors of Moore's history. They began to pursue it and that investigative reporting led them to the story.

I am not gullible nor naive. I have lived in AL and seen what Moore is capable of. Even without this, he's not fit for any office. His previous behavior makes this all the more believable.

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Kathy

I agree, why, he was not fit for office before this and Republicans should be backing away from Moore on moral grounds...

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chase_gw

They are backing away from him. .....actually they never embraced him. The RNC has withdrawn national funds

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ann_t

Just amazes me what low standards, some of your citizens have when it comes to choosing the politicians that they feel represents them best. Sad to see what is happening in your country.

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momj47(7A)

The allegations haven't been proven and Moore denies them.

Of course he denies them, he's a Republican

Why are conservatives so susceptible to misinformation ?

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ann_t

What is with the Mary and Joseph argument. Are they saying it wasn't a "virgin birth"?

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Kathy

Religion gone wrong!

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whynottryit

ann_t

What is with the Mary and Joseph argument. Are they saying it wasn't a "virgin birth"?

Logic, ann_t, it doesn't exist in this context.

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cattyles

I’m going to have sob this whole thread. But it confirms things I was hoping were not true.

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azmom

What a delight to watch deporables defending sub-human beings. What a reassurance for Democrats' success in 2018 and 2020,

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azmom

Why does timing of revealing it matter? It is not the focus.....Isn't it better late than never?

Of course, the mindless could not tell the difference.

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goibniu

whynottryit, yes, I am your neighbor in Louisiana. Mo Brooks was always the best choice, but Moore had the bigger name. A write-in candidacy worked for Lisa Murkowski in 2010, but I assume that Strange and Brooks would split the write-in votes, leaving Jones as the winner with under 50%, similar to the 1860 presidential election. 40 year old child molesting accusations beyond the statute of limitations after the primary are not the way elections are supposed to work. Alabama needs legislative intervention here to ensure a fair election.

As far as voting for a bad guy, I voted for Trump believing he was an unqualified dishonest cheater who probably committed all sorts of white collar crimes over the years. As he said, if he shot someone on 5th Avenue, I would have still voted for him over Clinton (or Sanders). The blue dogs went extinct long ago, but their cousin, the RINO, is still with us, and they are far preferable to the radical left. A reverse situation happened in Louisiana in 1991 when Democrats rallied behind known criminal Edwin Edwards for governor over KKK grand wizard David Duke.

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deegw

The timing is the timing because Moore's victims feel buoyed by the support that other victims are getting. The Weinstein story broke only a month ago. After a person has buried something for forty plus years, it is not surprising that it would take a few weeks to work up the courage to speak out.

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whynottryit

goibniu, I don't care for Mo Brooks either but yes, definitely preferable to Moore.

As to the statute of limitations. I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to find the Code of Alabama that would have been in effect in 1977 (40 years ago). The current code is known as Code of Alabama 1975 but from what I've seen, the applicable criminal section did not go into effect until 1980.

Section 13A-1-11

Effective date.

This title shall take effect at 12:01 A.M. o'clock on January 1, 1980.

(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §9910; Acts 1978, No. 770, p. 1110, §1; Acts 1979, No. 79-125, p. 230.)

I cannot find what the statute of limitation in 1977 would have been but under the 1975 code, there is no statute limitation for:

Section 13A-6-69

Enticing child to enter vehicle, house, etc., for immoral purposes.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person with lascivious intent to entice, allure, persuade, or invite, or attempt to entice, allure, persuade, or invite, any child under 16 years of age to enter any vehicle, room, house, office, or other place for the purpose of proposing to such child the performance of an act of sexual intercourse or an act which constitutes the offense of sodomy or for the purpose of proposing the fondling or feeling of the sexual or genital parts of such child or the breast of such child, or for the purpose of committing an aggravated assault on such child, or for the purpose of proposing that such child fondle or feel the sexual or genital parts of such person.

(b) A violation of this section is a Class C felony.

(Acts 1967, No. 388, p. 976; Code 1975, §13-1-114; Act 2005-301, 1st Sp. Sess., §1.)

I have not researched the punishment for a Class C felony. So I'm not sure whether you are correct about your assumption that the statute has run or not.

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chase_gw

The timing is the timing because the Post decided to do this investigating reporting after Moore hit the national scene with the Alabama primary.

The women never came forward and it would have stayed that way had the Post not approached them.



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jillinnj

It's simply too weird it has come up right now

You don't absorb info well, do you? It's been explained to you numerous times why the timing makes perfect sense. Try reading with comprehension.

---

If someone convinced her to come forward at this exact time, it's sleazy.

It's called investigative reporting and it's not sleazy. Well, it is in your mind if the target is a Republican. I suspect your reaction would be quite different if it were a Democrat.

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deegw

Yes but just because the Post approached them doesn't guarantee that they would have cooperated with the story. They kept quiet about their experiences for years. It's much easier to speak out when you feel that you will be supported and believed.


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chase_gw

Agree

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The 40 year old child molestation revelations are merely a further persuasive argument for his being UNFIT - on top of the fact that TWICE he has been removed from the bench. They don’t do that because the person grasps the concept of soundly reasoned legal arguments or comprehends the job as set forth in statute and precedent of the judiciary! They do it because the person repeatedly and unequivocally DOES NOT!

A law professor says they were forced to change the classroom style to straight lecture format because Moore made his argument in every case into “the hill worth dying on” despite any and all arguments presenting evidence contrary to his assertations and despite repeated lengthy explanations of the substance resulting in every legal standard acknowledged by EVERYONE BUT HIM. He refused to acknowledge all of that because he would not stop arguing that he wasn’t the one who was wrong! That would have meant that other people were right and he was wrong! And that wasn’t acceptable to him! Even though it was true!

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Joaniepoanie

“Did it go door to door saying they'd be willing to pay for smear stories against Moore? None of them new each other, never told their stories before, yet somehow, WaPo was able to pull them all outta a hat. Some magic trick.”

Yes, Post reporters, just on a lark, traveled to Alabama and began knocking on doors and offered to pay people to smear Moore, risking their own journalist reputations and that of the WaPo. SMH

The Post has 30 odd sources. And where was the “if true” when it was Bill Clinton?


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Ann

Alabama needs legislative intervention here to ensure a fair election.

Exactly. This is not a trend that can be allowed to continue - the trend of a media source hunting for dirt, then convincing/paying/coercing someone to come forward after 38 years, holding the story until the precise moment of maximum damage, and thus subverting democracy. This is completely sleazy. Moore might be too, but he has the right to defend himself if innocent and legislative intervention is indeed needed.

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Ann

Joanie, Bill Clinton was and remained the president and even used the oval office for his shenanigans.

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deegw

If you've never been dirty, you never have to worry about the stories gaining traction.

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jillinnj

Joanie, Bill Clinton was and remained the president and even used the oval office for his shenanigans.

He used the oval office for consensual sex. With an adult.

You should be able to see the difference.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"Exactly. This is not a trend that can be allowed to continue - the trend of a media source hunting for dirt, then convincing/paying/coercing someone to come forward after 38 years, holding the story until the precise moment of maximum damage, and thus subverting democracy. This is completely sleazy."

I'll believe you when I see you defend a Democrat the same way.

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Ann

Yeah, there is a difference Joanie. One involves a child (terrible) and was 38 years ago. The other involves a married man, the POTUS, and the oval office. Are you defending either?????

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deegw

Yikes. But Obama, but Hillary, but Bill! Can we have a discussion without this intentional misdirection? Yes, Bill Clinton was a pig in the oval office. Why bring up Clinton, it has nothing to do with this. Two wrongs don't make a right.

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dandyfopp

I think Bill Maher said last night... Racism, misogyny, sexual assault, child molestation.. the only thing left for the GOP to embrace now is cannibalism.

So get those talking points ready for 2018!


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Ann

The Post has 30 odd sources. And where was the “if true” when it was Bill Clinton?

I'm not sure why Joanie brought up Bill Clinton. It sounds as if she may be questioning the truth of accusations brought against him.

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jillinnj

Are you defending either?????

I'm not Joanie, but I will answer.

I have no say in whether any man (or woman) has an extra marital affair when it's not me or my spouse. It's none of my damn business.

When a man has sex with a child, you can be damn sure I will defend the victim. Every single time. Unlike you.

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dandyfopp

Gosh, reading this thread I don't know why children who are molested are afraid to to tell anyone and bury it all in shame.

Sick people, sick culture.

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terezosa / terriks

How many would advise their 30 something year old son to date teenage girls?

How many want their teenage daughters dating 30 something year old men?


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Ann

How many would advise their 30 something year old son to date teenage girls?

How many want their teenage daughters dating 30 something year old men?

My guess would be not anyone would parent with that advice. What does this parenting question have to do with allegations against Moore and the Alabama senate election?

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whynottryit

My mother preferred me to date guys in their 30s rather than the 17 old guy I was crazy about when I was 17. I figured she would have a fit but she was fine, as long as it wasn't HIM. I found they were a lot less of a problem than the guys my own age with octopus hands. This was in the mid-late 60s. Times have changed a lot since then. I'm not defending Moore. Just saying people thought about things a lot differently than they do now. Had those guys done what Moore did, my dad would have tarred and feathered him and run him out of town. But they didn't. They were absolutely respectable. Not even a kiss goodnight. It's not the age...it's the man.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I’m going to guess that only irresponsible, distracted, or disinterested parents would be okay with their 30+ year old son ‘dating’ a teenager; or okay with their teenage daughters ‘dating’ 30+ year old men.

I don’t care how old their grandma or great grandma was when she married a much older man, or various cultural examples of acceptance for taking a child bride - Moore didn’t marry them, he violated a minor after plying at least one with alcohol! I also think child brides deserve to live lives where their status as CHILDREN is protected rather than being allowed by the adults in their lives to let it be dismissed by some older guy who doesn’t think her body and mind need to mature to adulthood as they do naturally while going unmolested.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

I guess we now no why they are against abortion........they need kids to molest. Good Lord do how do they sleep at night.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The parenting question is a common way of reaching some who need the situation to be framed in more personally connected terms to see why others have a problem with it.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ann, whether or not investigative reporters broke the story on Moore's past child molestation, that is still part of his history, and would negatively influence his ability to legislate concerning the protection of minors, especially females.

.

Ann, did you have any objections to Richard Mellon Scaife and his Arkansas Project?

Any objections to the reporters who broke the story of Gary Hart's affair, and cost him his presidential run?

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chijim

Ann

Yeah,
there is a difference Joanie. One involves a child (terrible) and was
38 years ago. The other involves a married man, the POTUS, and the oval
office. Are you defending either?????

***************************************************

Another way of looking at it, 2 consensual adults-- he's a married powerful executive, have a workplace affair

Wife may be fine/ not, with his dalliances outside of marriage????????

She may be mad because he was supposed to keep it discreet.

BTW - Bill & Monica were nearly 20yrs ago, Why was it a reason to attack Hillary with when she was running?

vs

32 yr old who works for a governmental agency that prosecutes 32 yr old adults having or trying to have sex with 14 yr old minors

BTW, Roy Moore has clearly shown over the yrs that following the rule of law doesn't apply to himself.

Yeah, I think I can draw a line at what's worse

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Any objections to the reporters who broke the story of Gary Hart's affair, and cost him his presidential run?

Let us not forget, also, the investigative reporting into John Edwards' affair that ended his presidential campaign. Subversion of democracy? Of course not, and neither is this.


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CindyMac(8b)

Are you defending either?????


I'll defend infidelity over pedophilia any day.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

whynottryit

My mother preferred me to date guys in their 30s rather than the 17 old
guy I was crazy about when I was 17. I figured she would have a fit but
she was fine, as long as it wasn't HIM............................................................. This was in the mid-late 60s. Times have changed a lot since then.
I'm not defending Moore. Just saying people thought about things a lot
differently than they do now.

========================================

I agree that the 60s was different for women. More so in the south. Earnings for women depended on the wealth of the man. Southern women understood from my understanding from my mother was finding a man to care for them. She married at 16 my father was 10 yrs older than her. She noticed the difference of this when they relocated to the north. She talked about the loneliness of not having any girlfriends. All the married women were older and more sophisticated and she did not fit with them. They were all 19 and 20 and more worldly than her country experience.

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lily316

Why the long period of time before reporting it? Ask that to the hundreds of women (and men) who are coming out now in droves with stories of sexual attacks that occurred years ago. It's given women finally a voice and it's a powerful movement. The little homophobe Moore"doesn't remember" but of course he does and is ashamed. This family votes Republican so there goes that theory. And Moore admits in his 30's he dated 16-18 years olds. OMG! My mother wouldn't let me date guys more than two years older than me.

And the Clinton/Monica thing was consensual. She bragged to friends she was bringing knee pads to DC trying to nail the president. She was over 21, an adult who pursued him. It was sleazy but doesn't compare in any way to an over 30-year-old undressing a 14-year-old and sexually attacking her. I HATE southern hypocrites.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Catspat, good point re John Edwards.


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kaych

The MSM & the LW have a white knuckle grip on this Roy Moore story because it's so rare for someone on the right to be accused of sexual misconduct. There have been so many exposed sex crimes of late, & all (most?) of them have been pointed at someone on the left.

But the main reason is because they're so intent on the denigration of Christians & every single thing this great country was founded on. Our Creator God, & thus Christianity, is at the very core & the foundation from which the LW wants to strip away everything else.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I do not condone what is alleged against Roy Moore, but there is just too much crying wolf that it's hard to believe anything coming from them anymore.

ETA: I see where my statement was taken out of context to what it was intended. I will take the blame for not communicating what was meant. The whole 1st paragraph above was about the current news stories of sex scandals. I do not condone the behavior from anyone, no matter which side they're on.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Kaych, how soon they forget about Rudy Giuliani . . . and the current serial adulterer in the WH.

For the record, consensual relations outside of marriage are of no concern to me.

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whynottryit

Kaych, are you kidding?


https://www.alternet.org/story/155253/the_right-wing%27s_20_biggest_sex_hypocrites


http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/03/12/the-top-10-conservative-sex-scandals/

And more recently, Roger Ailes, Jon Edwards, Bill O'Reilley, Gov. Bentley from Alabama, and those are off the top of my head. I'm sure given another 5 minutes on the net I could find more stories.

This is not a partisan problem. This is a male problem. How in the world can you be so naive???

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catspa_zone9sunset14

"...it's so rare for someone on the right to be accused of sexual misconduct."

Oh. My. God. Shall we start a list for kaych? Could go on for quite a while... Agree with Nancy that consensual is one thing, predation is another.

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deegw

If you are going to be an adulterer don't make a point of publicly condemning adultery and adulterers. Or homosexuality or unconventional marriage or abortion or any of the other social issues that many people in the public eye seem to lord over others.

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whynottryit

d_gw...that's the whole point. If you're going to claim to be a Christian and use that for political advantage (which I can't stand to see anyone do anyway), then you better dang well live up to it. We throw around the word hypocrisy a lot but it is just a fancy word for liar and fraud. I can just about bet that anytime a politician extols his Christian values on the political stage, he's probably got something big to hide.

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kaych

Nope, just creator, no God in the declaration of independence

Everyone knows that Creator is capitalized to mean God.

To me, Christianity is not an excuse to sin, but an acknowledgment that I (& all) have sinned & in need of much forgiveness.

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whynottryit

kaych

Nope, just creator, no God in the declaration of independence

Everyone knows that Creator is capitalized to mean God.

To me, Christianity is not an excuse to sin, but an acknowledgment that I (& all) have sinned & in need of much forgiveness.

And it is past time that Roy Moore and his ilk acknowledged his (and their) sins.

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chijim

Give Me Some Of That Old Time Religion...



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labrea_gw

Breitbart's response was rapid and not denial! In order to respond as they did they had to have had the info to respond that way.

Play Catch me if you can!



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ann_t

Didn't Rudy Giuliani try move his mistress into the Mayor's mansion while still married and his wife was still living there?

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Joaniepoanie

Kaych

But the main reason is because they're so intent on the denigration of Christians & every single thing this great country was founded on. Our Creator God, & thus Christianity, is at the very core & the foundation from which the LW wants to strip away everything else.”

Categorically untrue. Do you not know that many/most liberals practice a faith? I really can’t fathom where you come to such a belief, but this way of thinking strikes me as extreme far right, which is just as skewed as you claim the left wing to be.

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everdebz

I've been reading history book on Religion. Polls showed that faith was at a high after great and grateful ending of WWII. Bit by bit, the courts had to give in to the rights of all to be free from established religion: by established words of a common prayer, etc.. etc... BUT I fully agree that our foundation in the country was by Christians, and that is confirmed by Bible excerpts on monuments, and by chosen pastor by officials, etc....

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everdebz

.... these facts of concrete expression don't mean that U.S. has established a religion, but means that officials are free to express their own.

"The Religious History of America," by Gaustad and Schmidt.

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everdebz

The courts have been working at differentiating between the extremes, getting more extreme with time... and I think many want to keep that momentum going ---- over the edge!!!! no?

Somebody has to be a modifier for them, for the people.... yes?

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

If they were to acknowledge that liberals are not godless heathen masses bent to the will of Satan down a road of singleminded focus towards the destruction of all they believe, of all that is part of their way of life, they might start to question all they believe and all that is part of their way of life.

I mean if there’s a clamor for things to change from the way they do things, and it’s not because Satan's armies are out to destroy them, what can all those people who want something for themselves in life that is diametrically opposed to what they want in life and feel everyone else should too but are stubborn spiritually empty mules who need to be brought back in line - be driven by? And what if their kids catch it through just brief transient exposure to these people and their mystifying demands to be treated as human beings equal in worth and a right to the same things as they have the rights to in life - and what nobody can continue to claim they have the right to, the scariest thing of all.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"because it's so rare for someone on the right to be accused of sexual misconduct."


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everdebz

Many advise that mainstreamers stay mostly out of politics, and refrain from preaching about it!!! They must read the Constitution, and become better discerning of its principles. Read court decisions and judges' comments so they understand, and don't become agitated -- I don't call their agitation hatred though.... so Jenn, if you're reading: I disagree with their views.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The right of people having the freedom to believe - or not - in a religion or spiritual philosophy of their choosing is something worth protecting, but not at the expense of that right held by everyone who happens to have chosen - or not - a different one! This is where separation of church and state, and not having a sole national religion comes in.

The founding fathers may have been entirely Jude’s-Christian variety religious, they also weren’t opposed to the owning of slaves - regardless, they no doubt expected the documents they drafted in the formation of our country to evolve over time and greater knowledge influencing the views and adapting to unanticipated future effects and needs of the people. They were very concerned of the risks from official religion government control and so took steps to prevent it.

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goibniu

whynottryit, the civil statute of limitations seems to have long run its course, but according to this Alabama legal advice website https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/alabama-statutes-of-limitations-for-sexual-abuse.html there is no criminal statute of limitations if the victim is under 16. I just wonder what prosecutor in their right mind is going to charge a man after 40 years, unless they have the DA from Baltimore. They would have a hard enough time pinning rape charges on Harvey Weinstein. It seems more likely that these allegations will follow Moore to his grave without any result besides the damage to his name and career. Essentially, Michael Jackson in a judge's robe, minus the moon walking and skin changing. The very purpose of having a statute of limitations is to prevent someone making sketchy or unverifiable accusations after 40 years.

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goibniu

If they were to acknowledge that liberals are not godless heathen masses bent to the will of Satan down a road of singleminded focus towards the destruction of all they believe, of all that is part of their way of life, they might start to question all they believe and all that is part of their way of life.

Jenn, I would definitely question all that I believe in that case, but the burden of proof lies with the heathens on this one. I've seen the radicals tearing down my city's priceless historical treasures with my own eyes. I've seen the rampant black crime (and the crime and employment statistics). I've seen the statistics on gays and HIV and number of sex partners. You're outraged by Roy Moore, but you want mentally disturbed men alone in the bathroom with little girls? Whether the topic is race, gender, sexuality, spending, foreign policy, guns, or what have you, the radical leftist narrative falls apart incredibly easily. There are a few issues like the environment and abortion where leftists still have an adult level argument worth listening to and perhaps compromising with. Republicans as a party deserve tons of criticism and needling, but they are actual Americans. If the Democrats keep going left (is that possible?), they'll wind up like the Whigs.

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purrmichigan(5)

Well, look out for incoming because it will be Dems.

l argument worth listening to and perhaps compromising with. Republicans as a party deserve tons of criticism and needling, but they are actual Americans. If the Democrats keep going left (is that possible?), they'll wind up like the Whigs.

I haven't yet had the gall and ignorance to say only Dems are "actual Americans". Takes more than ignorance though ..... but thanks for proving why the grand ole party is shrinking.

You're quite wrong but also very arrogant.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

I am not even going to bother trying to explain how that reference to criminal stuff is racist or the way that it’s a matter of wanting to control a community which underlies the present circumstances and SYSTEMIC; I won’t present statistics or argue that sex education which is factual, comprehensive, and provided to everyone reduces their likelihood of engaging unknowingly in high risk sexual activity and a healthcare system which makes birth control, std testing, emergency prophylactics and more to everyone regardless of income and provides comprehensive essential health services at reasonable cost make EVERYONE that much more likely to not become ill from the preventable, to survive serious life threatening health epidemics, to ensure that the concept of herd immunity can mean protecting everyone from the return of diseases that had been eradicated in developed nations.

And it’s not up to me whether statues are removed because I am not part of the community who gets to decide that confederate symbols are racist, because they were y’know, the victims of that confederate racism. So if they do decide that these things should be removed, that’s perfectly fine and I believe they have every right to choose what happens to the darn things whichever direction it goes,

I don’t worry about transgender persons using the appropriate bathroom for their gender identity - why are all sorts of people trying to protect a fictional person from getting molested by someone they assume is going in to molest WHEN ALL THEY ARE DOING IN THERE IS USING THE TOILET, like anyone else who goes into a bathroom. If it’s such a concern I have to wonder just what they get up to when they are in there supposedly to pee!

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goibniu

You would have better luck finding Waldo than finding an American flag in a one party Democratic city. If you think the GOP is shrinking, look at a political map. What's that giant red mass in the center separating NYC from LA? State legislatures, governors, congressmen, presidential votes, or whatever you like really. In reality, the Democratic's power base shrunk massively during the Obama years. The DNC is in debt and the RNC is raising more money. I'm sure the news that the DNC fixed their own presidential primary will reverse that though, right?

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goibniu

Jenn, effective sex education and quality healthcare are excellent ideas which most people support. Citizens shouldn't be forced to subsidize immoral and irresponsible sexual behavior, though. In my city, it wasn't up to the people whether the statues were removed. Masked men working for the mayor came in the middle of the night. As far as bathrooms, there have already been some incidents. The mental illness rates for crossdressers are astounding, and nearly half admit to attempting suicide. Does that sound like a good babysitter for your daughter? I don't know how strict the forums here are, but in other places an itchy moderator will shut down a topic when it veers off course (or simply suspend the conservatives). In Moore news, he does seem to admit that he dated 16+ year old girls, which in past years was legal and more accepted before the child abduction scares of the early 80s and the rise of helicopter parenting.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

There is a cost required to have these things and many more that come with a functioning for everyone kind of society - schools, roads that don’t have potholes the size of the Grand Canyon, bridges that are safe to drive across without worry that they will fail, stuff like that. The cost is contributing to the expense of providing and maintaining these lovely things we have in the form of taxes. In order for it to work we can’t qualify who we deem deserving of what we all pitch in on via our taxes! You don’t have to do whatever others wish to choose for their life, nor do they have to live life according to the way you live yours.

Crossdressers are NOT transgender.

I don’t agree with someone deciding that they will remove something that I feel should be presented to the persons of the community whose cultural heritage is that which the confederacy has caused pain and harm and may wish that those symbols of a flag and monuments be removed so that they no longer have to be reminded of that in daily life.

I've been saying the entire time that my issue with Moore is the fact that the revelations about his past activities with underage girls is merely yet another example of his lack of fitness for office, the circumstances which resulted in his TWICE being removed from the bench is the clearest and most significant evidence of why he should step aside.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"As far as bathrooms, there have already been some incidents. "

Can you share a couple of them?

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deegw

Thread drift is ok here. But goibnu, your convoluted mental gyrations trying to excuse Moore's behavior are ridiculous. I'm not going to change your views so I am not going to waste my time poking holes in your "logic".

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whynottryit

goibniu

Now I know who you are.

Jenn, effective sex education and quality healthcare are excellent ideas which most people support. Citizens shouldn't be forced to subsidize immoral and irresponsible sexual behavior, though.

Who decides what is immoral or irresponsible sexual behavior? You? Me? Christians? Buddhist? Mormons? Wiccans? Paganists? Atheists? Agnostics? Muslims? Tell me who has the knowledge to make that decision for the entire country regardless of their religious beliefs? Do you want another religion making your choices for you?

In my city, it wasn't up to the people whether the statues were removed. Masked men working for the mayor came in the middle of the night.

I have mixed feelings about the statues since I grew up seeing them. I don't think about them except as relics of a time past. Because of the recently exposed attitudes thought long gone by many, the old wounds were opened and the offense of those pieces of stone outweighed their importance. Would you have rather gone back to the 60s? or maybe you prefer the 1860s?

As far as bathrooms, there have already been some incidents. The mental illness rates for crossdressers are astounding, and nearly half admit to attempting suicide. Does that sound like a good babysitter for your daughter?

Do you send your daughter to public restrooms so she can have a babysitter while you're shopping? Did you ever stop to think that attitudes like yours may be what's causing them to want to commit suicide?

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Ann

I found this opinion piece very interesting and I think it says a lot about this election. I have always felt Moore is kind of secondary to the issues of this upcoming election and I still do. If he's guilty, I hope he won't ultimately serve as a Senator (but not because of an election loss). I agree with many of the points in this article.


http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/10/erick-erickson-dont-blame-roy-moore-voters-for-sticking-with-him.html

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Ann

My favorite political show of the week is Chris Wallace's Sunday show. I haven't watched it yet today, but it's recorded and I'll watch it later today. I just saw a clip on my computer and it appears he'll be covering this Moore story. He was discussing Bill Clinton with a Democrat guest and discussing "a double standard". I'll be interested in watching it later in its entirety.

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whynottryit

Ann, Moore is not secondary to the issues of those of us in Alabama. Who in Washington will take him seriously after this? Who will represent us? Who will help get funding for infrastructure and schools and all the things that are so desperately needed here? Moore would not have been doing us any favors before this came out. He certainly will be impotent now.

As for that article, it's just garbage. Moore getting elected and stepping down has about as much chance as Trump getting elected and stepping down and the idiot that wrote that piece knows it. I'm not even going to attempt to address the other detritus he mentions.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"I have always felt Moore is kind of secondary to the issues of this upcoming election"

I am not understanding how the man himself is secondary to the concept of his being elected. He is running for election; how can he be secondary?

ETA: I read your article and I offer this quote from it:

Y’all, I think the facts of the case as presented by the Washington Post are pretty damning. If I were a voter in Alabama, I would probably have to sit it out.

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mayflowers

Moore is probably as much of a narcissist as trump. Why would he step down? He is anti-establishment and pro-Moore so he doesn't care about the good of the party. Most likely he feels he's ordained by God to be a Senator.

An ex-colleague said he trolled for girls at high school games and at the mall in his 30s. Picture that.


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sunflower_petal(5a)

Erick Erickson is simply saying: This guy is awful, I wouldn't vote for him but people in Alabama will vote for him just to push back as if to say "you can't tell me what to do!"

From the article: "don’t be surprised when they’re willing to stand with people they’d never otherwise consider"

In other words, they will vote for an awful guy just because they can. Is that a point you're agreeing with, Ann?

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whynottryit

You helped cause an existential crisis where they have every good reason to believe their way of life and their values are at stake and you want them to surrender? I can’t blame them for refusing even if I disagree. If you’re demanding the other side surrender in the culture war, don’t be surprised when they’re willing to stand with people they’d never otherwise consider in the name of protecting themselves and their families. - Erick Erickson

This is where political thinking goes off the rails to me. It's not an "existential crisis". It's a political decision. Do the American people want the government telling them how to believe, how to worship? No. Conservatives would scream loud and long if a national religion was advocated that was not white and Christian. I am a white Christian but NO, I do not want a national religion, period, full stop. This is where the problem begins. Moore and others like him are using their "Christianity" to further their political goals. They are using age old techniques to garner support and are making their supporters fearful and dependent on them to "protect" them from the big bad "others". Erickson is ignoring the root of the issue. Religion is the weapon and the war is between a freedom to believe as you choose vs. the freedom to believe as they choose. Personal religious beliefs have no place in the laws of the country, Ten Commandments or not.



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Ann

I am not understanding how the man himself is secondary to the concept of his being elected. He is running for election; how can he be secondary?

Correct. I don't think I said it very well. Prior to the WaPo article, the election was all about the residents of Alabama selecting between the two men. But, since the article and accusation, I think it's become about a blatant attempt to subvert democracy (which is a term I've borrowed from another HT participant way up thread). Now, a big part of this election is whether the voters will either tolerate or let that blatant effort be successful or not. It's now become less about the Senate seat and the men and more about fair democracy and blatant smear campaigns. Nearly 40 years ago is simply too long a time to wait and suddenly decide, right now is the time to bring forth this accusation. Especially since Moore is far from new to public office. Whether or not true (and it may well be true), the tactic is blatant and clearly has a smear intention behind it - in addition to messing with democracy and fair elections.

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whynottryit

Ann, I honestly never thought I would hear (see) you say such a thing. Bill Clinton's crimes aren't too far back to smear HRC with. Roy Moore is so much worse. You think it's "subverting democracy" because the electorate was made aware of something so horrendous that he might lose? Does having an R by his name mean that much to you? Do you not have any empathy for those of us who have to live with this man's decisions as a representative of our state? For the gazillionth time, these women did not " suddenly decide" to come forward now just because they saw him running for office. Rumors were circulating and the WaPo reporters investigated the rumors. The women told them what they knew. Go ahead and believe that it's all a smear campaign if that's what it takes to help you sleep at night. If Chris Wallace says it's true and that Roy Moore did these things, will you believe it then?

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Ann

This is where political thinking goes off the rails to me. It's not an "existential crisis". It's a political decision. Do the American people want the government telling them how to believe, how to worship? No. Conservatives would scream loud and long if a national religion was advocated that was not white and Christian. I am a white Christian but NO, I do not want a national religion, period, full stop. This is where the problem begins. Moore and others like him are using their "Christianity" to further their political goals. They are using age old techniques to garner support and are making their supporters fearful and dependent on them to "protect" them from the big bad "others". Erickson is ignoring the root of the issue. Religion is the weapon and the war is between a freedom to believe as you choose vs. the freedom to believe as they choose. Personal religious beliefs have no place in the laws of the country, Ten Commandments or not.

Whynot, I'll respond to this from you with this from the article. No one wants to be forced to live their life as those on the other side of the political spectrum insist they should. And, national religion?

I suspect they’ll take your aspersions and hate. They already think you hate them. And because the other side will accept nothing less than the destruction of their way of life, even if they want to walk away from Roy Moore they can’t. Because the other side is bent on their destruction and they think, rightly, that Roy Moore is the only one standing with them.

So we have the luxury of turning our nose up at it. And we can say character counts. But they believe character and morals count too and while they might find Moore’s actions reprehensible, they know the other side won’t be happy until their kids are brainwashed into thinking boys can be girls, a baby’s brains can be harvested with taxpayer subsides, and guns should be made extinct.

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whynottryit

Oh, gah, I just saw your last sentence.

Whether or not true (and it may well be true), the tactic is blatant and clearly has a smear intention behind it - in addition to messing with democracy and fair elections.

You think it's "messing with democracy and fair elections" for the electorate to know all this before he's elected? What makes you think he won't be elected anyway? Trump was.

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whynottryit

I read the article before I commented, Ann. I don't need it repeated for me. But thanks for thinking I'm not that bright.

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deegw

Ann, Have you read the previous posts? Here are the two main reasons why Moore's behavior is being discussed at this time.

  1. Moore is running for a national position, not a state one. Which is why WaPo started pursuing the rumors about him.
  2. The current climate of exposure of sexual deviants has made others feel more comfortable about talking about their past experiences. The Weinberg story broke one month ago.

Is there anything about these two items that you dispute or not understand?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"But, since the article and accusation, I think it's become about a blatant attempt to subvert democracy (which is a term I've borrowed from another HT participant way up thread)."

Have you ever said that about a Democrat? That someone was trying to subvert democracy by coming up with something in a campaign? I don't think you have (or ever will).

I'm truly sorry it hasn't come up before because there are several offices that he should not have already held. But better late than never. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't say the exact same thing if this were a Democrat?

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ann_t

If the rumours are true, and I have no doubt that they are., (His colleagues have been coming forward confirming that he dated high school girls and that he trolled malls and HS football games) than this can't be seen as a smear campaign.

Calling it a "smear campaign" is implying that something isn't true and it is made up to tarnish the candidate. That is not the case here. I would certainly want to know if a candidate that I was considering voting for was a child molester.

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Ann

Whynot, I don't know whether Roy Moore is guilty of the accusations or not. That part of this story has yet to be determined and likely won't be in time for the December election. I do believe he should have the right to defend himself as with any other person accused of wrongdoing.

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whynottryit

Ann

Whynot, I don't know whether Roy Moore is guilty of the accusations or not. That part of this story has yet to be determined and likely won't be in time for the December election. I do believe he should have the right to defend himself as with any other person accused of wrongdoing.

Just like you believed HRC had a right to defend herself with the Benghazi hearings? Oh wait, she did. 8 times. Nothing was found but yes, of course, she was guilty. She had to be. And the emails...oh those awful emails. Comey releases them a month before the election and you were glowing with glee about it. But then, wait, there was nothing in them. But hey, there had to have been because, there were...emails.

Four women have accused him of inappropriate behavior, a boyfriend of the youngest has said she told him about it, her friends said she told them about it. Co-workers say they knew he was interested in younger girls. This is way more than you had for all the allegations against Dems that you have made but hey, he has an R by his name so let's wait and see. And these women are named. They are having to catch the backlash from their outcries. Your attitude about this enrages me.

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Ann

Whynot, we both used paragraphs from the article within our comments. How weird of you to say this after you had done the exact same thing.

I read the article before I commented, Ann. I don't need it repeated for me. But thanks for thinking I'm not that bright.

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Ann

Your attitude about this enrages me.

OK

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whynottryit

Ann, I used a paragraph to indicate what part of the article I was using to comment. You made it your entire comment. Not really that weird.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Nearly 40 years ago is simply too long a time to wait and suddenly decide, right now is the time to bring forth this accusation. Especially since Moore is far from new to public office.

A classic example of how crimes like these can take decades to come to the fore is Dennis Hastert, Ann, who not only was elected to Congress but served as Speaker for eight years despite crimes committed decades earlier:

In court submissions on sentencing considerations filed in April 2016, federal prosecutors made allegations of sexual misconduct against Hastert, saying that he had molested at least four boys as young as 14 while he worked as a high school wrestling coach decades earlier.[16] At the sentencing hearing later that month, Hastert admitted that he had sexually abused boys whom he coached.[17] The judge in the case referred to Hastert as a "serial child molester" and imposed a sentence of fifteen months in prison, two years' supervised release, and a $250,000 fine.[18][1] source

I'm not understanding why you think 40 years is "simply too long". Misconduct can lie buried many years, as should be obvious from Hastert's case, and becomes known only when it is finally uncovered.

Edit to ask: should we just ignore the accusation of a crime because the timing is "inconvenient"?

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jillinnj

Nearly 40 years ago is simply too long a time to wait and suddenly decide, right now is the time to bring forth this accusation. Especially since Moore is far from new to public office. Whether or not true (and it may well be true), the tactic is blatant and clearly has a smear intention behind it - in addition to messing with democracy and fair elections.

Wow. Just wow.

You don't care if it's true. You want the victim to just shut up because you don't like the timing because AND ONLY BECAUSE it could cost you a Republican seat in the Senate.

Wow. Just wow.

To he!! with the victim. Get over it. Shut up. It was a long time ago. It doesn't matter. We have a Senate to keep control of.

Just unbelievable. You should be ashamed of yourself.

But, of course, when it's a Democrat, and not even one who cheated, but who is married to a cheater, it's never too late to bring that up. RIGHT?

Could you be more of a hypocrite? Nope, you could not.

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labrea_gw

It was a long time ago only means it's accrued interest

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jillinnj

Your attitude about this enrages me.

Agree 100%. It's so infuriating.

The perfect Republican robot - party before anything. And anything includes sexually abusing children. Disgusting.

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Nearly 40 years ago is simply too long a time to wait and suddenly decide, right now is the time to bring forth this accusation.

Says who? How do you know this?

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Ann

Jill, please refresh my memory as to where I criticized Hillary Clinton regarding her husband's behavior.

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deegw

Hannity pressed again on Moore’s age at the time of the alleged incidents, asking if he had dated teenage girls in his 30s.

“It would not have been my customary behavior,” Moore said.

The correct answer is no, absolutely not.

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goibniu

We have a Republican parish president named Mike Yenni here in Louisiana who has admitted going after at least one teenage boy. We had a big recall attempt which failed only due to the number of signatures required in a short period of time. He's admitted to the crime (although he's never been charged). Republicans are willing to oppose their own on moral grounds, although to be fair, our biggest problem with him is that he was secretly gay. If Roy Moore admits to what he is accused of (or is proven to be guilty), few Republicans will support him.

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Ziemia(6a)

Good to know goibniu's view on so many issues.

After last year's presidential election and Moore's continuing levels of support WITHOUT last week's election results I'd be more worried about what America really is.

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mayflowers

I don't understand Ann's and the RW's timing argument. I also don't see why it matters who found out the information. This is politics as practiced by both sides. If you're a voter, you know about it now so you can decide if it matters. I doubt there is much of a moral dilemma for Christian conservatives as they overcame that easily with trump. I think this will be our first pedophile Senator in modern history, so at least he has a claim to fame.

I believe Moore did have an unnatural attraction to teenagers up until his mid-30s, when he married a 24 year old at age 38. At age 30 when he was trolling teenagers, his future wife was 16.

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Ziemia(6a)

Worth repeating IMO:

**Here are the two main reasons why Moore's behavior is being discussed at this time.

  1. Moore is running for a national position, not a state one. Which is why WaPo started pursuing the rumors about him.
  2. The current climate of exposure of sexual deviants has made others feel more comfortable about talking about their past experiences. The Weinberg story broke one month ago.

Is there anything about these two items that you dispute or not understand?**


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Ann

Speaking of the political side of this issue, what do the Democrats on this thread think should happen if Menendez is found guilty of his crimes? Should Chris Christie have the ability to name a replacement (likely a Republican) or should a guilty man remain in the Senate to hold the seat for Dems.

The similarity between this situation and the Moore situation is obvious to me. If the info about Moore was released prior to now, the Alabama Republicans would not have been in this situation. They'd have a candidate without this accusation against him or her and, in all likelihood, the Republican would win. So, if you want to try to separate the political gamesmanship from the ethical issues, then clearly the Menendez situation is an easy call, right? The Dems (all of them) would immediately join the Republicans in having Menendez expelled and replaced - should Menendez be found guilty. We'll see if he is found guilty and then we'll see how the Dems respond.

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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

Behavior like this sometimes takes years or decades to reveal because, especially in the case of children, the molester tells the child that it needs to be a secret. A child of four or 14, may indeed keep the secret. Later, when the child realizes how wrong the behavior was, he or she believes the fault was his/her own. Guilt keeps the child quiet at that point. When, at some point, the child becomes an adult, the decision to speak out is often met with silence or criticism. If the molester is powerful in the outside world (they are always powerful in the child's world), it is that much more difficult.

The repercusions of being molested are great. Those children frequently have behavior issues, grow up unable to sustain healthy relationships or to fake a positive outlook. It becomes a part of you forever and damages you forever to a greater or lesser extent.

Perhaps the idea that he would become a national figure in the political world should he become a senator was enough to push the woman to finally take a stand against him.


ETA: There is no similarity to the Menendez case and the this one. The case that is similar is the Gorsuch appointment to the SC.

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Ann

Worth repeating IMO:

**Here are the two main reasons why Moore's behavior is being discussed at this time.

  1. Moore is running for a national position, not a state one. Which is why WaPo started pursuing the rumors about him.
  2. The current climate of exposure of sexual deviants has made others feel more comfortable about talking about their past experiences. The Weinberg story broke one month ago.

Is there anything about these two items that you dispute or not understand?**

I'll answer this by rephrasing it in the way I view the situation.

Here is the only reason Moore's behavior is being discussed at this time.

  • Moore was very likely to win the Alabama Senate election. The very liberal leaning media hunted for a negative story on Moore, found one they thought would be very damaging, waited until just the right moment (when ballots could not be reprinted and Moore would not have time to defend himself if innocent) to try to steal a Senate seat they knew the Dems would have virtually no chance of winning in a fair and democratic way.



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purrmichigan(5)

Thanks for giving such a good example of why the right crafts their own story - in detail this time - rather than take in new information.

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Ann

ETA: There is no similarity to the Menendez case and the this one. The case that is similar is the Gorsuch appointment to the SC.

It's certainly not like the Gorsuch appointment if the Dems choose to look at only the ethical side of Menendez's criminal behavior (if found guilty), which is what they are "claiming" to do in the situation with Moore. It only resembles the Gorsuch situation from a political viewpoint. If we examine the Moore situation from a political viewpoint, it's a whole different situation than examining the personal actions (not yet proven) of Moore. From a political standpoint, it's a blatant attempt to steal an election.

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Ann

I'll ask again. What do the Dems on this thread think should happen if Menendez is found guilty?

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momj47(7A)

With regard to the other girls, you understand this is 40 years ago after my return from the military, I dated a lot of young ladies.

.... I don’t remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother.

Which means he was dating "ladies" young enough to be living at home and needing permission to date an older man.

Yuk

If he was dating women his own age, he wouldn't have needed their mother's permission.

Moore was born in 1947, his wife was born in 1961

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purrmichigan(5)

Stupid outs itself sooner or later.

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deegw

Ann, once again, more deflection. If Menendez is guilty, he should not be a US senator. Case closed. If Menendez was accused of dating underage girls and did not deny it, he should not be a US senator.

Moore had never denied dating underage girls. He has made plenty of other denials and indignant statements.

Clinton tried to skirt the Lewinsky mess by also playing with words. It didn't make his behavior any less sleazy.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

The very liberal leaning media hunted for a negative story on Moore, found one they thought would be very damaging, waited until just the right moment (when ballots could not be reprinted and Moore would not have time to defend himself if innocent) to try to steal a Senate seat they knew the Dems would have virtually no chance of winning in a fair and democratic way.

You keep repeating as if fact that the "very liberal-leaning media" knew about this some time ago and strategically kept it under their hats, Ann. According to the original WaPo story, upon hearing the rumor, the reporters took just three weeks to interview witnesses and verify facts before publishing:

While reporting a story in Alabama about supporters of Moore’s Senate campaign, a Post reporter heard that Moore allegedly had sought relationships with teenage girls. Over the ensuing three weeks, two Post reporters contacted and interviewed the four women. All were initially reluctant to speak publicly but chose to do so after multiple interviews, saying they thought it was important for people to know about their interactions with Moore. The women say they don’t know one another.

Even three or four weeks ago, when they started investigating, it had already become too late to take Moore off the ballot (deadline was Oct. 12). This deep, dark conspiracy idea seems to be an embellishment and mistaken premise on your part, unless you have evidence otherwise.

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purrmichigan(5)

Blame the messenger; invent a conspiracy scenario that beggars reality - the actual story is straightforward. Just not what the far right wants to admit.

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whynottryit

Well, Ann, you needn't worry. Reps will keep the seat. WaPo didn't understand what they were doing. They have now consolidated Roy's support and only if Luther Strange (or someone else) decides to become a write-in will Dems have a snowball's chance of winning. Outside the deep south, people don't understand politics here. There is still a very big carpetbagger mentality against anyone who doesn't still think the South will rise again. I saw on Twitter this a.m that a woman (don't remember her name) was trying to get Dems to jump on buses to get out the vote for Doug Jones. Gov Howard Dean said NO, send money instead. Alabamians were begging them to stay home because they knew Doug would definitely lose if "yankees" started showing up for him. "Northerners" came by the bus loads in the '60s to advance the civil rights movement and bubbas still haven't forgiven that, just like the carpetbaggers after the Civil War. All this gnashing of teeth over Moore's penchant for young girls will not hurt him politically. It will probably help him. Ethically, morally, of course it's horrific. But politically, I've already seen too many people saying they'd rather vote for a pedophile than a Democrat. So you can keep rooting for him to win. He probably will.

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Rina

At the age of 76, the Grand Slam tennis star Bob Hewitt is serving a six-year sentence in South Africa for the rape and sexual abuse of three girls when he was their tennis coach in the 1980s and 90s. Not quite 40 years, but close enough. So no, Ann, 40 years is not too long to wait under any circumstances to accuse someone who molested you. I very much hope that the accuser who was 14 at the time decides to take the matter to court.

As for the conspiracy theory part of your argument ... as I see it the spotlight was on him because of the upcoming Alabama election. As happens all the time, the journalists received information that they had to follow up. Not to do so would have been gross dereliction of duty. It is true that just prior to elections we find people on any side of the political fence/s trying to sully the reputations of their opposition. But to assume that in this case they sat on the story until the time was right because people who oppose Republicans are just nasty that way ... I haven't seen any evidence for that assumption? You view it that way, Ann, others view it in other ways. Many things are possible.

If I were an American Republican I'd be praying he does not get elected ... "not in my name or the name of my party".

But if it did happen that way, it could not possibly be regarded as more important than the fact that voters are being asked to support a man who seems at best to have lived and worked on the lower rungs of decency. By even standing for office, it seems to me, he has already insulted the citizens of Alabama. That is a lot more important than whether there has been a mean Democratic plot in the timing of the reports -- that and the fact that a crime may have been committed and so far gone unpunished.

You know, potential candidates, if you are slime, just be slime in your private world. Keep out of public office. Everywhere. Please!


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mayflowers

Even if they find out the story is true, they can bestow Christian forgiveness on him and vote for him--their usual cop-out so that their consciences don't bother them if they think too hard about him feeling up a 14 year old.

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purrmichigan(5)

People who haven't worked a campaign don't understand that Dems do not go to homes that are obviously repub - we have the voting records. Do you really think Dems will not want support for their cause from "northerners"?

This is an Alabama decision that is important nationwide. I want the Dem Party in Alabama, to not be would mean they aren't doing their job. This is how it works, both parties canvas and campaign for their person.

I tend to see the big picture and to me this is a choice voters have to make: are they going to pretend that it's 100 years ago and cut off their nose to spite their face or are they willing to accept change?

No one should be giving up. It isn't a done deal.

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Ann

You know, potential candidates, if you are slime, just be slime in your private world. Keep out of public office. Everywhere. Please!

Agreed. Voters deserve representatives of good moral character.

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chase_gw

This from a Trump supporter ?

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Ann

I've also heard that the Alabama Dems want the "Northerners" to stay away.

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mayflowers

In that case, we should have voided last year's presidential election no matter who won it.

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Ann

Mayflowers, maybe so and Bill Clinton should have been kicked to the curb. Kennedy too.

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whynottryit

PM, you may want Dems in Alabama but they need to be Alabama Dems. If word got out that bus loads of Dems were coming in from across the country, you could kiss that Senate seat goodbye. I don't care how well intentioned it may be, it would be a death knell for any Dem candidate on the ticket. Talk to Gov Dean. He understands the problem. Not understanding the voters is how the Dems lost the election last year.

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Ziemia(6a)

Ann, if you seriously expect your questions to be answered doesn't it seem logical for you to answer the ones previously asked of you?

You've sidestepped the aspect that Moore becoming a candidate for a federal position changes the national interest.

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Ann

By the way, I mentioned Chris Wallace's Sunday show earlier today. I think it was very good this week.

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Ziemia(6a)

With this continuing support for Moore in Alabama it is now surprising to me that the previous gov stepped down just a few months ago due to a scandal.

Though maybe the situation with respect to the feelings of their family was different.

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/328190-alabama-governor-resigns-amid-sex-scandal

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Ann

Meanom, if Moore is guilty, I don't think he should have served in any of his positions and I don't think he should be the candidate. If guilty, I think the election should be delayed (sounds unlikely) until a suitable Republican candidate is printed on the ballot. I do not think the voters of Alabama should be faced with a situation of having only a Democrat as their only reasonable option due to a situation previously unknown to them. It's a very red state and I don't think it's any more fair to Alabama than it would be to California to have 40 year old dirt dug up on the only Democrat candidate once ballots were printed and deadlines had expired.

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purrmichigan(5)

It sounds like either way you've given up whynot.

If we go we'll lose because we're "northerners" and if we don't go we'll probably lose because we haven't fought hard enough.

You're representing Alabama as though it hasn't changed at all in the last century. Dems, as a party, haven't given up.

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purrmichigan(5)

Do you understand about write-in candidates, Ann? Hardly the dire case you present when people can write-in Strange, for example.

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whynottryit

Dear God, PM. Don't you get it? Politically, it HASN'T changed. Your arrogance of thinking you understand a world in which you have never lived is only surpassed by that of those who were so sure that HRC would win. I want Doug to win. I will vote for him. I tell everyone that I can to vote for him. I am supporting him. But I know this state. I know that these people are still rebels at heart and will never let the 'Union" or anyone they think represents the "union" to tell them how to vote. I'm not giving up but I'm being realistic. Normal in your area of the country is not normal here and until you get that, you will not understand how to get votes here.

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Ann

Yes, I understand the situation very clearly PM and the ramifications of some Republican voters writing in a candidate while others vote for Moore (whose name would remain on the ballot). I can just imagine this is your greatest hope.

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purrmichigan(5)

My grandest hope because it would be good for the country and better for Alabama is that Moore fails and retires. For years he's made statements that are flat out lies and weird at that. He shouldn't have been in office at all.

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purrmichigan(5)

whynot, you keep repeating that Moore will win. I get that you don't want him to. I have my own opinion, based on working a campaign and yes it was 'up north', but some factors are true across the country.

Guess we'll see how it all plays out. We both want the same thing and we'll agree to disagree about how that should happen.

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whynottryit

PM, I just ran across this article on Twitter from Slate. It explains most of what I was trying to say in terms that are probably better understood than what I said.

Slate article - Conversation with Nate Cohn

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deegw

I am 55. I spent my first 25 years in NY, the next 30 in the deep South. Unfortunately, whynot's assessment of the attitudes of many people living in the South is spot on. You're not the boss of me, Yankee newspapers can't change my opinion, ad nauseam. They will cut off their nose to spite their face to prove that they can't be swayed by outside opinion.

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CindyMac(8b)

Dh & I are both transplanted Yankees. We've been down here 40 years. With his Boston accent Dh is still given grief over his Yankee birth with many in the oilfield. Too many of the good ole boys just can't let go of the past and don't want to listen to reason on many subjects.

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purrmichigan(5)

There are more Dems living in the south, some retirees. If there were a tiny minority of registered Dems, the outcome may be certain.

Not my nature to give up and probably the more pushback I get, the harder I'll work. I will be phoning Dems in AL to get out the vote.

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whynottryit

puremichigan60(5)

the more pushback I get, the harder I'll work. I will be phoning Dems in AL to get out the vote.

smh... we don't have a chance with an attitude like that. Your stubborn determination to not understand what you're up against will be your (Dems) downfall. *throwing up my hands*

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purrmichigan(5)

What's the alternative? Accept that AL is a backwards state that doesn't care about pedophiles? I do get my own opinion, you know. We don't agree. We do want the same thing.

Alabama Dems email me daily to ask for my support $$ of course, but also placing phone calls. That I'm going to do.

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purrmichigan(5)

If I were Doug Jones, I would be doing everything I could to reassure people in Alabama that I am an Alabama Democrat and am not going to help the Pelosi-Schumer agenda, and I am going to work with Trump when I agree, and do everything I could to peel away a few more votes, because that’s what it will come down to if this race is close.

Nate Cohn is suggesting Jones lie to win. That's a real SMH.

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whynottryit

PM. No, Nate Cohn is suggesting that Jones maintain an independent stance while staying true to his own democratic ideals. Alabama is the cradle of the confederacy and that means not bending to the will of Washington. Jones knows that but there are comments he's made that I know are true about what he believes but they have made me cringe when I heard them because I knew he was going to lose moderate Reps with them. Dems will never win Alabama following a strict party line.

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deegw

To further clarify the Southern mind set for PM, in 2001 GA Governor Roy Barnes fell on the sword when he took executive action to minimize the confederate flag in GA. He KNEW that he would be voted out of office for doing so. He also knew that the rest of the country would continue to look at GA with derision if the state flag continued to have a confederate symbol.

This was just 15 years ago.


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Ziemia(6a)

Two things.

One, here's an interview with the current (new since April) gov. Recent but before the scandal. She is of two minds: stay neutral on the primary yet not support Moore.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/it-is-what-it-is-governor-kay-ivey-on-alabama-roy-moore-and-donald-trump/amp

Two, about PM and whynots discussion... I read PM's intent is do whatever to get all those for Jones to get out and vote. (And less about being confident on changing the minds of Moore's supporters.)

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whynottryit

meanom(fka meanom)

I read PM's intent is do whatever to get all those for Jones to get out and vote. (And less about being confident on changing the minds of Moore's supporters.)

I understand that, meanom. However, if any Alabamian is voting for Doug Jones, they're going to be going to the polls regardless. They know how important it is. It's the undecideds or the Luther Strange Reps that are needed to win. Dems alone can't do it. Whatever. She'll do what she does. I'm just trying to get her (and others) to realize that politics isn't a one size fits all in Alabama. It's a completely different creature here than in any other state. My frustration is that PM seems to represent the national Dem party as a whole and their unwillingness to address issues by taking in local attitudes and treating each area as if it was the same everywhere. Just like the woman on Twitter wanting to bring in people on buses. They don't understand the damage that would do. I was relieved to see Gov Dean speak out against doing that. Sorry. I promised myself not to post on this again. I have to stop doing this.

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purrmichigan(5)

I think this is my last comment also. I get emails direct from the Alabama Dems organization. Not from the DNC.

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purrmichigan(5)

THURSDAY MORNING LINK:

LT

Louisiana Call Team <louisianacallteam@lademo.org>

Reply|

Thu 11/9, 10:13 AM

You

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goibniu

I seem to have missed the party, but I do think Alabama has a fair number of yankee transplants attracted to the opulent splendor of Alabama, who use their yankee gold to buy up property. They'll certainly be voting for Jones. If I were Jones, I would copy the playbook of Louisiana governor John Bel Edwards, the only Democratic governor in the Deep South. He superficially adopted some Republican positions like being pro-life and pro-military, which go a long way with conservatives. Jones should plaster every billboard with "Republicans for Jones" signs to keep patriotic Alabamians at home on election day. Of course, this would still result in 6 years of chaos having a senator who doesn't represent Alabama.

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jillinnj

Voters deserve representatives of good moral character.

Wait, I'm confused. I thought you voted for Trump?

---

what do the Democrats on this thread think should happen if Menendez is found guilty of his crimes?

He should step down and be replaced by whatever the rules are for replacing a sitting Senator.

I know it's hard for you to understand, but some of us are consistent. Unlike you, we don't make our decision based on the letter after the offender's name.

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momj47(7A)

And we don't make our decisions based on whether someone calls themselves a "christian" when their actions clearly demonstrate that they have no idea what Jesus taught.

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goibniu

In reality, both parties are quick to condemn a politician who has committed immoral or criminal behavior IF that politician has little strategic value and/or is certainly replaceable with someone who has less baggage. When the bigger picture is at stake or the alternate is unfathomable, most of us take the approach commonly attributed to FDR and say, "He may be a SOB, but he's our SOB." For a football analogy, if the 5th string linebacker gets arrested for assault and battery, he's getting cut the next day. If Aaron Rogers gets arrested for assault and battery, let's hold off and give him his day in court. If he's guilty, maybe he needs a second chance. Most people were well aware Trump and Hillary were immoral and probably criminals, and yet we still voted for one of them.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Yankee gold? Don't they use paper money and regular coins like everyone else in the country buys things with? And pro-military is something that most candidates actually are...re-activating the war in NK or deciding to start moving large numbers of troops to areas in the ME and elsewhere, launching full-scale attacks etc etc..those sorts of things, I don't know anyone who actually wants, but that's not a pro-military stance unless pro-military is somehow being defined as being okay with military members being killed or severely injured leaving them permanently disabled for life. If that's how you're defining it, knock it off.

@Whynot

Would democrats who have a southern accent themselves, even if it's not a distinctly Alabaman accent, have better luck when reaching out via phone to impart the importance of showing up to the polls will be for Alabama democrats?

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Ann

Whynot, I'm not sure if you're still participating in this thread, but I'm curious how most Alabama Republicans are feeling about the Moore situation? I would imagine it's a very active topic locally. My question is, do many of them feel this is a blatant attempt to steal the Senate seat, as I do, or are they rapidly turning against Moore?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"how most Alabama Republicans are feeling about the Moore situation?"

From what I've read here, sounds like "He may be a SOB, but he's our SOB."

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ann_t

Apparently many plan to check their religion at the door, and vote for Moore.


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studio10001

It isn't about checking their religion at the door, it is about suspending their disbelief re. the accusations, which is a very different thing, and something that supporters of most candidates have to do at some point in a campaign.

I wanted to address something I don't think has been mentioned yet. Alabama is not just a red state, it is a deeply red state, so the idea that this story is about a democratic win, with apologies to both PM and Ann, is weak. Moore as the candidate IS the democratic win, and GOP knows it, which is why the response has been hard and fast from DC. The fight now is to remove Bannon from further influence; he can taut himself kingmaker when Moore wins, as well as screw the vote, since Moore has historically placed himself in the position of lone wolf where reason dictated otherwise. His alliance is feared to be with Bannon, not the White House. For those posters needing to deflect blame on a third party, the sensible choice here is not the democratic party, but the republican party. They are the ones with anything left to lose in this election, even when they win.

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Pidge

Ann, you may feel that outing Moore is "blatant attempt to steal a Senate seat," but I'd replace "steal" with "win" as the more appropriate word choice.


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mayflowers

Studio has it right. That's why McConnell and other establishment Republicans were so quick to condemn Moore without evidence. They'd NEVER do that for one of their own. They don't want another Cruz in the Senate.

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whynottryit

Thank you, studio. I forgot to mention that on this thread though I think I did somewhere else when Strange lost. Finally, though, at least someone who gets the complexities that are going on here. What a relief!

Ann, I am following but not planning to continue to beat my head against a wall. There are plenty of articles out on the net for you to find with interviews of Moore supporters. Crazy as they are, reporters are having no trouble finding them and they are fighting their "rebel cause".

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Ziemia(6a)

Support for Moore is coming from many, many different parts of Alabama's society.

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whynottryit

Meanom, the Moore supporters may live in different economic areas but they are at the core the same people. That's what is so confusing.

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mayflowers

Whynot, there are four other Roy Moore threads where head-beating might not be a requirement. I don't know why people have to start a new thread every time they have a new thought or a little more info comes out on a topic. The responses aren't going to differ much.

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whynottryit

Thanks, mayflower. But as you said, responses aren't going to differ much.

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chase_gw

In watching some of the coverage interviewing local voters the thought amongst those who think it's politically motivated blame mainstream Republicans in Washington.......not Democrats.

Moore is pariah to many Republican Senators...........including McConnell.

Be interesting to see what Trump does he backed Strange and was mighty ticked when Moore won as were Moore backers who were furious that Trump did not back Moore. On the other hand Moore has Bannon backing him.

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mayflowers

I don't think trump voters understand that they are really Bannonites. They think they are still Republicans, and of course, they are the true Republicans, the rest being RINOs who need to be kicked out of the party. But legislation is still being written by the establishment for the establishment, and yet the trumpians support their non-populist policies without understanding they are not designed to help the middle class.

I thought trump said he'd address the Moore issue when he returns from Asia. Does he throw full support to Moore, who wasn't even his candidate? Or does he speak against Moore, while thanking his good luck that he didn't endorse a pedophile? He'd have to believe he can get the Moore voters to write-in Strange, but they didn't get behind his candidate in the primary, so why would they now?


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mayflowers

Ha, Chase, we cross-posted! It's not that I'm a slow typer--I had too many kitty interruptions!

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

I thought trump said he'd address the Moore issue when he returns from Asia.

What can trump say other than "I like em' young too"

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Ann

Studio, thanks for your interesting answer. I live in a part of the country very different from the south, so while I'm sure I'm still not fully understanding the differences, comments like yours are very helpful to me. Whynot's comments have also been very informative. With the national news of this election and the Moore situation being so much, it's very helpful to hear from local people with even more news and an inside understanding.

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mayflowers

He actually did say that, vgkg:

“You know, it doesn’t really matter what [the media] write as long as you’ve got a young and beautiful piece of ass.”

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mayflowers

Ann, did you support Moore or Strange during their primary?

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Ann

Mayflowers, I didn't know enough about either to have an opinion. For me, the interesting part of that primary was the split between Republicans. Earlier, it was mentioned about the upset Trump felt when Moore won but I didn't see that. I felt he backed Strange but was fine with moving his support to Moore following the primary outcome. I'll be interested to see this current story develop with Trump's return.

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mayflowers

That interesting part of the primary that you refer to is what I'm asking about. Which side of the split did you find yourself on? I ask because I remember you saying you weren't very religious and Moore's candidacy is strongly based on a return to God and the Bible. Knowing that, would you have supported Strange?

I don't think trump was upset that Moore won. He was upset that he backed a "loser".

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Of course, Republicans are going to be split in a Republican primary ... that's why you have a primary to decide who will be the candidate in the state election.

"I don't think trump was upset that Moore won. He was upset that he backed a "loser"."

So true.

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chase_gw

Agree Mayflowers. Trump was not so upset that Moore won, he was upset because he felt he was talked into backing a "loser". The reports were he was " embarrased" by that. Like so many other things with Trump it is the "win" that counts not the issue.

BREAKING NEWS McConnell just released a statement saying he believes the womans accusations and feels Moore should step aside immediately. Saying that is what is best for the Republican Party. He went on to say they are looking at options for a write in candidate. Would like to hear who still believes this is a liberal smear campaign,

Will be very interesting how Trump handles this

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

45 will back the candidate that Bannon tells him to back. Unbelievable that 45 is basically a puppet with Bannon - funded by the Mercers - is pulling the strings on.

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whynottryit

Jenn, Bannon backed Moore in the Primary. Trump backed Strange. The Mercers have pulled their backing from Bannon. Things are in flux there.

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Ann

Mayflowers, correct in that I'm not a religious person. But, with that said, I would neither discount or not support a religious candidate just because they have strong religious beliefs and I don't. As an example, I'm pro-life as are many religious candidates, so my lack of religion in my own life would not prevent me from finding common ground on certain topics.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

The Mercers may have decided to eliminate the obvious money ties, but Bannon is still funded by them and connected through business and media operations.

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Ann

I don't think trump was upset that Moore won. He was upset that he backed a "loser".

I don't agree with this. I think the media attempted to make a big deal about Trump's supposed anger over that primary and I just didn't see it in Trump. He seemed quite calm about the whole thing. I thought the media looked silly with their attempt at what I think failed on their part.

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Ann

Jenn, if you think Trump is a Bannon puppet, why did he back Strange instead of Moore? I'm not following your thinking.

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whynottryit
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momj47(7A)

Well, he supported Strange until he didn't. You must remember this.

Trump deletes tweets supporting defeated Luther Strange

And this:

Trump, officials and informal advisers say, felt misled by McConnell and his political team, who encouraged him to endorse and campaign for Strange.

Even before Strange's loss on Tuesday, Trump expressed misgivings about getting behind the candidate, who he deemed too "low energy." Trump fretted the endorsement made him appear weak, cowed by an establishment that he'd openly rebuffed during his own campaign.

Just another example of Trump's "loyalty".

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Ann, why do you think Trump deleted his tweet supporting Strange after he lost if he wasn't upset? Why bother to do that?

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Ann

I don't know why he did that. It could have been as simple as feeling he could better support the winner without everyone getting exercised about the fact that he had supported the winner's opponent. But, then of course, everyone got exercised about a deleted tweet:) Frankly, Trump can't take a breath without the media being all over it trying to decipher a meaning behind each breath. But actually, decipher isn't the right word as I don't think the media ever tries to accurately report what is actually the reason Trump does something, but instead they want to define his meaning and often incorrectly to put as bad of a light as possible on every one of those breaths.

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mayflowers

I never got the sense that trump cared who won the primary. He was probably embroiled in much bigger things at the time, like who was kneeling for the National Anthem.

I think what was going on with the primary was that McConnell had his ear more than Bannon so he endorsed Strange. Trump has his few things that excite him because they affect him personally, like taxes, but he doesn't put much effort into the other things, like healthcare. He lets others do the work and then he just goes with whatever they tell him to do, causing him to flop around like a fish when different people talk to him. I think he may avoid even addressing the Moore issue because he really doesn't care.

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ann_t

Amazing how some turn themselves into pretzels defending Dementia Don.

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chase_gw

Trump has demonstrated over and over and over that he doesn't like being on the losing side of anything. It is who he is and how he thinks, Strange was no different

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Ann

And now we have a 16 year old accusing George HW Bush of sexual misconduct. I wonder who else will be accused by day's end. A few days ago, I predicted this whole sexual misconduct topic will get very overplayed and I sure still feel that way. It's a shame too because it will make it harder for some that really should be paid close attention to - those who are accusing very dangerous molesters who will go on to do very harmful things.

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ann_t

"And now we have a 16 year old accusing George HW Bush of sexual misconduct. I wonder who else will be accused by day's end. A few days ago, I predicted this whole sexual misconduct topic will get very overplayed and I sure still feel that way. It's a shame too because it will make it harder for some that really should be paid close attention to - those who are accusing very dangerous molesters who will go on to do very harmful things."

You think that only some should get attention? And some should be ignored? How would you decide which accused should get close attention and some little or none?


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whynottryit

Well, that's it for me, Ann. I am now turning off notifications on this thread. You've totally taken things to a whole new level of crazy. I've never seen anyone so woefully and willfully ignore reality and twist it to their own delusions. Not even here in Alabama.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Deleting a tweet like that, at that moment in time (after the election is over), is something I'd expect a 17-year kid to do. That is, indicative of immaturity to pretend like it didn't happen.

"It could have been as simple as feeling he could better support the winner without everyone getting exercised about the fact that he had supported the winner's opponent. "

Everybody picks sides! That's why we have elections. Pretending you didn't support one side after the other side won is just juvenile. People don't need a tweet to remember who you supported.

Anyway, I don't know why you bother to twist yourself over this. Just say he was dumb to do it. Is it that hard to say? It seems like you feel obligated to support everything he does. I certainly never felt that way about Obama and didn't hesitate to call him out on what I disagreed with.

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Ann

I think the comment about the deleted tweet was what was silly, Sunflower. I think I was trying to be polite to even address the insignificant question. But, if you choose to look at it as twisting myself over it, I'll simply say "meaningless and insignificant question" next time.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Ann, if you read back, the comment about deleting the tweet was in response to your comment "He seemed quite calm about the whole thing." which was in response to someone saying he was upset about his candidate losing and you said "I think the media attempted to make a big deal about Trump's supposed anger over that primary and I just didn't see it in Trump."

So that's how all that came to be. It wasn't meant to be "silly" but rather a continuation of several posts worth of comments (a discussion).

I agree that sometimes the media twists things a bit, the same thing happened on Fox with what Obama did. Pretty normal stuff. But he genuinely does some things which are just boneheaded even if no one said anything about it.

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kaych

Deleting a tweet like that, at that moment in time (after the election is over), is something I'd expect a 17-year kid to do. That is, indicative of immaturity to pretend like it didn't happen.

Not a proclamation for either side, but found it to be a very Interesting statement considering the OP. Could pretending like it did happen also be indicative of immaturity?

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mayflowers

Ann, did you miss the stories from a few weeks ago where a few women said that Bush Sr. grabbed their butts while posing for photos?

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Ann

Ann_t, I think it possible nearly every woman on earth and maybe lots of men have likely been touched inappropriately at least once in their lives. When I was about 12, I was shopping with my mom and, while she was looking at an item, a man came from behind and touched my chest area and quickly disappeared. I was confused and embarrassed. I didn't tell my mom because I was confused and embarrassed. But, I am not forever harmed by this incident. Maybe I learned to be a bit more aware and cautious, but that's good. So, I think if every person in this world that has had an experience like this now comes forward, it will just get way out of control. I think the accusations being made about George H W Bush of late are completely unnecessary.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"Not a proclamation for either side, but found it to be a very Interesting statement considering the OP. Could pretending like it did happen also be indicative of immaturity?"

Is this your way of saying that you don't believe the woman who says this happened when she was 14?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

FWIW, the idea that a large number of sexuall abuse/harassment accusations are false has been disproved by research. It is actually under 10%, I understand. The number of unreported events is what is high.

That doesn't stop certain propagandistic talking heads from using it as an argument, though....

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

And does Ann think everybody else in the world is exactly like her?

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Ann

Of course I don't carolb, but I do think most who have lived in this society have not been wrapped in a cocoon of complete safety every moment of their lives.

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deegw

FWIW, I don't know how far back the GHWB accusations go but I wondered if he has dementia. He is 93 and one of the symptoms of dementia is inappropriate behavior.

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kaych

Is this your way of saying that you don't believe the woman who says this happened when she was 14?

I specifically stated no to your question. Is this your way of avoiding my question?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Sorry, I don't see "my" question that you are stating 'no' to. I am not avoiding your question but I am lacking the context.

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Vertise

Commenting from further up. I have not finished reading, it seems to have drifted all over the place.

The lack of comprehension below which takes such strange paths is typical in LW world. It appears that some did not even read what Elvis said.

I know you do not care but I do and there are lots of lurkers and newbies unfamiliar with the type of thing that goes on.

I do not see how such weird paths can be anything less than intentional.


~~~~~~~

redsox_gw

Elvis: Agree, but you need to narrow your use of the word "pedophile", who are sexually attracted to prepubescent children.

So elvis I imagine it is okay for you if your relatives were sexually active at 13, 14. Your relatives had intercourse then in middle school? That is okay by your standards. Any teen pregnancies? OMG the lack of family values here is just astounding.

Puberty starts at about age 12. This is absolute perversion. I don't even know what to say. I have not seen anyone here sink this low.

3 Likes Bookmark last Friday at 4:05AM

~~~~~~~~~~

redsox_gw

Elvis, YOU should run on your new platform, "Sex for Teens." It would do well in your party.

Like Bookmark last Friday at 4:38AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Which was in response to Elvis's comments below:

elvis

redsox_gw

Bill Clinton was a pig in the same lane as HW Bush and JFK. But a pedophile is the lowest form of human life. It ain't the same.

Agree,

but you need to narrow your use of the word "pedophile", who are sexually attracted to prepubescent children.

2 Likes Bookmark last Thursday at 7:40PM

~~~~~~~~~

elvis

Sure, just look at how young Macron was when his teacher (and much, much later, wife) started having sex with him. He was 15, she was 39. Talk about liberal liberals...

1 Like Bookmark last Thursday at 8:16PM

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Vertise

Redsox_gw: Bill Clinton was a pig in the same lane as HW Bush and JFK. But a pedophile is the lowest form of human life. It ain't the same.

Elvis: ‘Agree,

but you need to narrow your use of the word "pedophile", who are sexually attracted to prepubescent children.’


The term pedophile is commonly used by the public to describe all child sexual abuse offenders.[7][11]

This usage is considered problematic by researchers, because many child molesters do not have a strong sexual interest in prepubescent children, and are consequently not pedophiles. There are motives for child sexual abuse that are unrelated to pedophilia, such as stress, marital problems, the unavailability of an adult partner, general anti-social tendencies, high sex drive, or alcohol use. As child sexual abuse is not automatically an indicator that its perpetrator is a pedophile, offenders can be separated into two types: pedophilic and non-pedophilic (or preferential and situational). Estimates for the rate of pedophilia in detected child molesters generally range between 25% and 50%. A 2006 study found that 35% of its sample of child molesters were pedophilic. Pedophilia appears to be less common in incest offenders, especially fathers and step-fathers. According to a U.S. study on 2429 adult male sex offenders who were categorized as "pedophiles", only 7% identified themselves as exclusive; indicating that many or most child sexual abusers may fall into the non-exclusive category.

Pedophilia is termed pedophilic disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), and the manual defines it as a paraphilia involving intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children that have either been acted upon or which cause the person with the attraction distress or interpersonal difficulty.[1]The International Classification of Diseases (ICD-10) defines it as a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal age.[4]

In popular usage, the word pedophilia is often applied to any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse.[5][6]This use conflates the sexual attraction to prepubescent children with the act of child sexual abuse, and fails to distinguish between attraction to prepubescent and pubescent or post-pubescent minors.[7][8]

Researchers recommend that these imprecise uses be avoided because although people who commit child sexual abuse are sometimes pedophiles,[6][9] child sexual abuse offenders are not pedophiles unless they have a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children,[7][10][11] and some pedophiles do not molest children.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Had to remove a lot of footnote markers to get this to post.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

moore was 32 while fooling around with a 14 yo.

When trump was 32 Melania was 8, so you have to put things in perspective, nyuk.

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chase_gw

Ann, your experience is true of many women including me.

However, the issue is not a matter of how the victim manages through it ...it is that a man did such an inexcusable thing.

My getting past what happened in no ways absolves the pig that touched me when I was still a child. What he did was deplorable no matter how I managed through. Yes, I managed it, but not everyone can.

It is my opinion that these women, especially the one 14, did manage through it, put it behind her and moved on. However, now older she can talk about it publicly. Good for her.

Maybe , just maybe if we are all honest and speak of our experiences these men who think they can touch little girls with impunty will be exposed.

It is not acceptable and we need to stop ignoring and/or excusing it.

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purrmichigan(5)

I'm finding the women who can't understand how a woman wouldn't have thwarted the abuse, a part of the problem. Then again, that's an age old attitude, just one step away from 'she asked for it'.

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kaych

kaych

Deleting a tweet like that, at that moment in time (after the election is over), is something I'd expect a 17-year kid to do. That is, indicative of immaturity to pretend like it didn't happen.

Not a proclamation for either side, but found it to be a very Interesting statement considering the OP. Could pretending like it did happen also be indicative of immaturity?

~~~~~~~~~~~~

your reply with a ?

sunflower_petal Is this your way of saying that you don't believe the woman who says this happened when she was 14?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I said it is not a proclamation of either side! & my question:

Could pretending like it did happen also be indicative of immaturity?

It doesn't matter if the context is in general (substitute 'something' for 'it') or in the context of the OP, your answer should be the same.

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purrmichigan(5)

So now you're going for "she pretended it happened"??

Hoot!!!

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kaych

^^^^^^

& you accuse others of not having reading comprehension? LOL

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Sexual assault or harassment is just that, whether one is "harmed forever" by it or not. The main value of #MeToo, I think, is in expressing how common, obnoxious, and tedious such behavior is, so maybe those in our society think it's just harmless "fun" or "flirting" will finally and definitively get the message that their behavior is disgusting and not welcome.

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Ann

Authorities or even the public aren't going to be able to deal with every story like mine from every woman with a similar story. It will dilute a bigger and more serious problem. For example, today's accusation against H W is just unnecessary. I'm not saying it untrue, but I am saying it's diluting the bigger issue and I think it could be a jump on board, attention seeking move on the part of the woman.

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Ann

Regarding the pedophile definition, that came up from Chuck Todd on "Meet the Press" yesterday and he clarified that Moore was not a pedophile by the definition of the word.

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Ann

Dana Perino just reported another woman is about to step forward about Moore. I haven't heard the details yet.

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lilacinjust

Ann

Dana Perino just reported another woman is about to step forward about Moore. I haven't heard the details yet.

^^^^

Is this the woman who is scheduled to appear with Gloria Allred?

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catspa_zone9sunset14

It will dilute a bigger and more serious problem.

To get back to the topic, Moore's reported activities with the 14-year-old do seem to be within the "more serious problem" class, considering his age at the time.

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ann_t

Do you know who the man was Ann? I'm assuming from what you posted that you do not. There will be many stories like yours with no one to investigate.

"Deleting a tweet like that, at that moment in time (after the election is over), is something I'd expect a 17-year kid to do. That is, indicative of immaturity to pretend like it didn't happen."

Deleting a tweet falls into the same category of deleting posts here on HT. If you can't stand behind what you post, than maybe those that post hit and run posts, should maybe think twice before posting. Deleting a post without an explanation as to why is cowardly.


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lilacinjust

To get back to the topic, Moore's reported activities with the 14-year-old do seem to be within the "more serious problem" class, considering his age at the time.

^^^^^

I think I read that if true, Moore would have committed a felony, back then and still today.

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Ann

I don't know mimi. I hadn't heard about that scheduled appearance.

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lilacinjust

Ann

I don't know mimi. I hadn't heard about that scheduled appearance.

^^^^^

Watching a livestream now.

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lilacinjust

Moore's alleged victim (Gloria Allred's client) was a high school, 16-year old waitress at a local diner. She claims he offered her a ride home after work, but instead groped her in the car, tried to take her shirt off and tried to force her head into his crotch.

The victim fought him hard to get away from his strong grip around her neck, and Moore threatened that he was the D.A. and no one would believe her, because she was a child.

Moore allowed her out of the car, behind the diner, and drove off.

She quit the next day and never went back to the diner.

This woman sounds completely legit. Very compelling testimony and extremely disturbing.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

kaych: "Could pretending like it did happen also be indicative of immaturity?"

Sure it could be indicative of immaturity. It could also be indicative of wanting attention (without the immaturity). It could also be the truth.

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heri_cles

The fact that Moore was twice removed from the AL Supreme Court for ethical violations should have cause the GOP and Republican voters to knock him out at the primary stage.

This guy appears top be a strange agent. The AL GOP could have done better just like the GOP should have picked someone other than trump in the primary.

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CindyMac(8b)


He signed her yearbook?

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lilacinjust

Yes, he signed her yearbook, and that seemed iron-clad, as she produced the yearbook.

Moore wrote some smarmy note about her pretty looks, Merry Christmas, and signed it with his name and "D.A.".

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chase_gw

Mimi, those are very different allegations than the other four. Not sure what to think about this one........just listened to her ......very , very different.

Honestly, this one gives me pause. Why not contact the Post? Why Allred ?

Not saying she isn't telling the truth...it's just very different . If she is being truthful there are more. Violent sexual predators don't just strike once.

There are either more shoes to drop...or maybe not. This one puts my antenna up


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heri_cles

I am almost ready to say "He Gawn"

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chase_gw

OK ...the "love" Roy Moore helps seal it for me .....love ? Really ?

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heri_cles

Why not contact the Post? Why Allred ?

Legal representation is absolutely required under the circumstances, that's why.

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lilacinjust

Not saying she isn't telling the truth...it's just very different . If she is being truthful there are more. Violent sexual predators don't just strike once.

^^^^^

Yes, I thought the exact same things. These are different, next-level predator allegations. If true, Moore carefully chose her and lay in wait for his opportunity.

Allred said the accuser contacted her, which I'm not sure I believe. Maybe she did contact Allred because she knows no one does these type of press events like her.

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chase_gw

I'm sure the Post could help with that. ......the other 4 didn't lawyer up first. Just not sure about this one. ........

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chase_gw

Of course she contacted Allred...what do you think Allred did. ...find the accusers name in the Yellow Pages under. ...Moore hit on me too !

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lilacinjust

Cory Gardner, NRSC Chairman, called Roy Moore unfit for office.


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chase_gw

Which may just about assure Moore's election. .........

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heri_cles

Of course she contacted Allred...what do you think Allred did. ...find
the accusers name in the Yellow Pages under. ...Moore hit on me too

Chase: I don't understand your sarcasm. This woman needed representation, if not for litigation, to have someone speak for her in a succinct fashion and at the same time, to protect her legal rights. Gloria Allred is a highly experienced attorney in this field.


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chase_gw

Heri, of course she deserves representation. Just not sure why she wouldn't go to the Post first. It smells to me that her priority is litigation .

Which is OK.........just different from the other four who seem to be more about justice than litigation.

Of more interest to me is how the description of her abuse by Moore is so different than the other four.



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lilacinjust

It smells to me that her priority is litigation .

^^^^^

Allred explicitly stated Nelson's intention is to offer testimony only, not to pursue legal or civil action.

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lilacinjust

heri_cles

I am almost ready to say "He Gawn"

^^^^

Elvis refuses to leave the building!

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chase_gw

Moore is a pig who does not deserve to hold any office much less the national stage as a Senator. ...of that I am certain.

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chase_gw

Just heard her again and I believe her. She said while describing the attack that Moore "reached over and locked the door"

How many years since locking doors are automatic or controlled by electronically from the drivers side.?

If she had just said " he locked the doors" I would not have taken note, but to recall him "reaching over" to lock the door sold it for me. ..........that is a detail recalled from memory

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lilacinjust

Nelson noted that Moore's car was an older model, 2-door.

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whynottryit

Chase, my antennae went up too. If this was her first encounter with Moore, how did he get the yearbook in the first place? I have not seen the interview. I personally cannot stand Gloria Allred (don't kill me) but she just has always given me the heebee jeebies. I never know what her motives really are and she loves sensationalism. But since I haven't seen the press release, I'm not sure about the sequence of events. As far as the note in the yearbook, we tend to throw around the word "love" a lot. Everyone "loves" everyone else around here, even if you're sticking a knife in their back. So that part doesn't sway me one way or the other. I am hoping to find a transcript of the press conference so that maybe it will fill in some gaps that are huge holes for me. Don't get me wrong, most of you know I can't stand the man. There are plenty of other reasons for me to not want him in office. He is far from "gawn" though. I think Allred may have just sealed the election for him.

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lilacinjust

whynottryit

Chase, my antennae went up too. If this was her first encounter with Moore, how did he get the yearbook in the first place? I have not seen the interview. I personally cannot stand Gloria Allred (don't kill me) but she just has always given me the heebee jeebies. I never know what her motives really are and she loves sensationalism. But since I haven't seen the press release, I'm not sure about the sequence of events.

^^^^^^

Totally agree on Allred, and that goes for her daughter, too. She does the same production every press conference.

Sit close to victim to ensure Allred is in every photo and frame. Look intently at victim as victim reads her statement. Place arm around victim and console for the cameras once inevitable breakdown occurs. Provide tissues.

It's the same every time.

(although on this count, I think Nelson came across as quite believable)

IIRC, Nelson brought her high school yearbook into work at the diner, and placed it on the counter. Moore offered to sign it, I guess what with being "Mr. D.A. Man" and all, he thought she'd be impressed, I guess.

It seemed to me that Moore felt more of a familiarity to Nelson than she did to Moore.

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whynottryit

Thank you, mimi. Sorry. I didn't intend to post here again. I was just trying to catch up with what was going on. I do find it amusing that chase and I are a little hesitant about this one while the more conservative bunch is accepting her as more believable. Not amusing in a haha way but more of an irony I guess. Anyway, thanks for the info. I'm going to try to find a transcript because I still have a lot of questions.

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lilacinjust

whynot, it's just a gut thing. You have to watch it to get the full sense of Nelson and her account.

I think this is the press conference in full:

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patriciae_gw(07)

She told three people over the years, a younger sister two years after, her husband to be, and finally her mother just four years ago.

I expect there will be more of them.

I compared this to the account with the 14 yr old. He took advantage there of a family in crisis and offered sympathy and understanding-like call me if you need to talk. This is classic pedophile behavior. Practiced. I don't like this.

The year book thing is really weird. Who ever heard of some stray adult signing? Inveigling himself into her life. I don't like this either.

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Ann

I think this whole sexual encounter topic/focus is making our entire country look a bit like one big National Enquirer. People are coming out of the woodwork everywhere. As I've said a few times, it's being overplayed all over the place and, quite frankly, not doing a thing to support/improve the image of women as the strong, capable people they want to be viewed as. I'm in no way saying I don't think sexual abuse occurs (and way too often), but this tell all fad is not going to turn out as hoped, IMO. There are probably not too many people (men or women) who don't have some behavior in their life at one point or another that could be viewed as less than respectable. Is it going to become a new trend to dig out every bit of dirt on every person and spend the rest of our lives pointing fingers at anyone who has any name recognition, including our past presidents in their 90s and in a wheelchair?

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lilacinjust

The year book thing is really weird. Who ever heard of some stray adult signing? Inveigling himself into her life. I don't like this either.

^^^^^

It goes to a pattern of taking liberties, perhaps emboldened by his status as D.A.

Like BMOC- Big Man On Campus.

I'm sure he was to many in that AL town.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Since when should reporting of predatory behavior of persons in positions of power be limited?

If Ann is uncomfortable hearing of the abuse and harassment, she can simply find other sources for her information.



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Ziemia(6a)

"Authorities or even the public aren't going to be able to deal with every story like mine from every woman with a similar story. It will dilute a bigger and more serious problem." Ann

For now, it's fine to focus (on rooting out perpetrators of child sexual crimes) on those with compelling evidence or those concerning people in public positions of power. Pretty certain there are a lot of women who were damaged and are unable to name the predator or can name them but can't get any attention.

But let's see those who can be removed from power over children BE removed.

PS: Trump should be thrilled with these reports about Moore - Trump backed the better candidate.

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jillinnj

I think this whole sexual encounter topic/focus is making our entire country look a bit like one big National Enquirer.

Very bizarre.

Worried about our country's image because sexual predators are being named, as they should be.

But the POTUS that embarrasses our country every single day gets her full throated golly gee support.

You just cannot make this stuff up.

Every single sexual predator, of every degree, should be called out. Publicly.

And, I do not believe it's an embarrassment. I believe it will give woman all over the world the voice to speak out. Because I doubt this is a unique to America problem.

I just don't understand the conservative mind set of preferring not to talk about the uncomfortable stuff and wanting to sweep it under the rug. THAT'S EXACTLY WHY IT'S GONE FOR AS LONG AS IT HAS. Stop being part of the problem.

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maifleur01

I look at various places and read the comments. Many of the people commenting want him to sue the women that are coming forward. Based on this I think it was wise that she used an attorney. If he does attack them in court she already has representation where when the others first came forward did not.

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deegw

Exactly jill, guys keep doing it because they get away with it. Keep it in your pants and keep your hands to yourself. Kindergarten rules.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Decent guys don't go cruising for high school girls if they're in their 30's (they probably shouldn't do that in their 20's either) and they don't get them drunk for the express purpose of taking sexual advantage of them.

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Ann

I don't think anything should be swept under the rug, but I also don't think it should be the new goal to conduct televised interviews like the Nelson one today. It looks like a televised version of National Enquirer. If a woman wants to report an abuser to the authorities, I think that's just what they should do and with legal counsel if they so choose. But to turn this into this type of theater is looking kind of sleazy on everyone's part, IMO. I think if media, like WaPo, starts hunting for victims and writing daily pieces about them, people will kind of shut out the topic after a bit, not unlike what has happened with kneeling and the anthem. Are any of you paying much attention to that topic anymore? I'm not as I think it was overplayed. All the while, the public is really turning away from the NFL, tired of the whole mess.

The situation with Moore bothers me greatly. I think he is probably guilty but it would most likely turn into a he said/she said unprovable situation. So, if he won't pull out on his own, where does this leave us? The establishment Republicans are doing all they can to get rid of him. But, the voters of Alabama voted for him to be the candidate. Is it fair to say to them, your votes don't matter and we know better than you what is good for you? That bothers me and subverts democracy. This has become such an ethical and political dilemma. I heard one scenario today where it was suggested maybe the election proceed, if Moore wins, he is then unseated by a 2/3 Senate vote (which hasn't happened since the 1800s). The conversation questioned if Dems would supply the needed Senate votes or would they politically prefer to keep Moore since they might feel that would give them a much better chance to win that seat next year. What is fair in this complicated mess?

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